Some Church of God leaders today...
Here we are in the year 2018 and hundreds and hundreds of splinter groups exist in the Church of God.
On what is considered the most sacred night of the Armstrong/Millerite COG tradition is the Passover service that practices footwashing and the commemoration of Christ's death with matzos and wine.
Even that sacredness is not sacred to so many of the leaders of the COG's.
They remain divided from one another to this very day.
Passover this year is being kept on various nights between March 29th - April 1st. Talk about a theological mess!
Most of the leaders have set themselves up as people to be served instead of acting as servant leaders that serve the members.
While many members will have sincere thoughts and understanding about this night, most of the leadership do not. It is all about control and being seen.
Just look at how these men present themselves to the church today. It is easy to fill in how they represent themselves towards their followers and the COG as a whole:
Gerald Weston
Rod McNair
Jonathan McNair
David C Pack
Gerald Flurry
Stephen Flurry
Cal Culpepper
John McDonald
Bob Thiel
James Malm
35 comments:
One of my favorite memories of ACOG Passover services was seeing how a couple of brown-nosing bootlickers in the congregation would invariably angle to be the one to wash the minister's feet, even leaping over or elbowing at the competitor in a very un-Passover-like manner.
Also, where did the tradition of close-packed chairs originate? Who decided that the Passover service each year has to be the most uncomfortable of all ACOG services?
We had the same thing happen in Pasadena. People jockied places in line in order to wash certain ministers feet or to not have to wash others feet. We also had to have warm water for the leading ministers and fresh clean towels. The pee-on’s got cold water and had to bring their own towels.
Did HWA wash the commoners' feet? Did common folk wash HWA's feet? Or was his feet only washed by the elite ministers? Or did he just officiate the Passover service in Pasadena? What was his role in the Passover service back in the day?
My favorite memory was a minister we had who literally had deacons on their hands and knees, picking up every little spec of anything off the carpet, prior to the Passover service.
Of course, you always had to walk in and not dare to say anything to anyone, to complete the solemnity. Head in Bible, look straight ahead.
He also used very rigid hand gestures to direct the deacons, when passing out the bread and wine, and even when and how to approach the stage.
He usually broke the bread very meticulously, taking forever. Meredith came to town one year, and when it was time to break the bread, just grabbed it and broke it without all the aplomb. The look of horror on the ministers face was priceless.
HWA's feet were washed by highly selected evangelists in the Star Dressing room of the auditorium. He never mingled with the unwashed feet in the Student Center
I’m thinking why would we make a perpetual ritual of one symbolic example of humility for all times and forever? One size fits all? The foot washing was a metaphor for serving or helping others, no matter how degrading we might personally find the particular act, and without hope of any tangible reward. How many people who would like to be known as “the dude who washed HWA’s feet at Passover” would have secretly changed HWA’s diapers, totally unknown, but humbly helping as an unknown fellow servant?
Why not help at a mission for the homeless? Why not weed the invalid next door neighbor’s front yard? When you think about it, there’s lots of anonymous good stuff you can do that nobody is ever going to find out about, as opposed to self-righteously keeping one ritual in front of everyone in your “club”.
Nobody ever accused Armstrongites of being genuine “thinking” people. Ritual culties is more like it. Come to think of it, perhaps helping some of them would be the most thankless expression of humility!
BB
All these guys are at war with each other. All the time. They're all competing for their share of the same dwindling population of HWA's dupes. There isn't a night of the year in which they'd put down the hatchet, no matter how solemn or holy they'd tell you that you have to treat it as, on pain of damnation, of course. Sure, they might (or might not) go through the motions of the rituals, but that's where it begins and ends. There is nothing practical that is ever derived from the rituals. Going through those motions never yields personal growth.
During the UCG-COGWA split in 2010, the minister's knives were out before, during, and after the passover and unleavened bread festivals. Sure, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt that they all picked all the leaven out from behind their sofas and washed someone's feet. So what? Do you think any of that empty ritual ever made even one of them think that maybe he oughta repent from doing his fellow minister, or lowly laymember who dared to call a spade a spade, from doing them a downright dirty and sinful deed, even in the midst of a festival that is supposed to symbolize putting the sin out of your life and serving your fellow man rather than taking advantage of them unjustly? HA! Don't make me laugh.
Some of the starkly authoritarian things the ministers were saying back then, all of which was quickly expunged as soon as the war was over, would be deeply embarrassing if it were reposted now. They'd deny it all now. But not then. These ministers were busy telling us to examine ourselves for sin. Do you think they were doing the same? HA! The war continued on another 9 months, all the way through till 2011. Do you think they put their long knives away because of the day of Atonement? HA! Fat chance. You can get the true measure of someone's character by watching them under pressure during a time of crisis, not during the easy times. During a time of crisis, all those ministers were asshole reprobates that would do anything and everything they'd made a career out of telling you and me never to do.
Hypocrisy was on display during that time so starkly, so unabashedly. I just couldn't forget it. Even though I didn't leave Armstrongism right away, it made it clear and obvious that it is morally, ethically, and spiritually bankrupt, and possesses nothing of value that could serve as a reason to stay, and that if I didn't find a way to extricate myself, there would be something wrong with me. It took a lot of courage to defy my family and friends, but eventually I had to pull the plug.
My hats off also to all the other courageous people out there, especially the youth, who dare to ask the tough questions, look the ugly answers square in the eye, refuse to blink, and have the guts to get out. If passover and unleavened bread isn't the right time to be keepin it real, then is there ever a time?
True Bread.
By heart I recall that Jesus was sentenced by the Sanhedrin in blatant and flagrant contradiction of the rules and procedures of their own court in a mock trial. Arrested by the local "blackwater" private police force. Not the Romans. This episode fell under local Herods juridiction and Pilate serving pleading Jesus case.
The Romans served as the "sword might" later on, true to satisfy the local elites that worked with them.
Wrong analogy I know, but Saddam was sentenced by his own. Orange suits were never tortured on American soil.
The legal workings and diplomacy of empires are a particular fetish of mine.
The Praetorium seems to have been Herods Palace at the citadel. I'm not sure but I heard Antonia seems to have been a 200 ad construction.
Anyway perhaps I am mistaken.
It's just that I have some feel for those contingents of Romans in their "green zone". Closely observing the rising religious frenzy toward the holidays. Uprisings "tumultum ad murum" here and there. Stone throwing at your soldiers.
Than the elite leaders of the majority occupied population come at your office accusing this rebel is claiming to be a king in blatant defiance of the rules of occupation.
What is one to do?
He seems like a soft spoken nice guy and these elites are of the fanatical types not shaking the hands of your female and male officers because they consider you filth so much they will not even enter the praetorium.
I mean this mess is only a tenporary assignment. Better things are waiting in the next careerstep in Rome. And then retirement in Tuscanny.
But first have this issue settled so pax may return and Ceasar will be pleased and get me a promotion.
Nck
True Bread writes:
“He [the Messiah] was apprehended on Aviv 13 around midnight…”
Luke records the apprehension:
Lk 22:54 Then took they him, and led him, and brought him into the high priest's house. And Peter followed afar off.
But earlier in the evening the Messiah addressed the apostles:
Lk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
According to your chronology, you seem to be implying that that this Passover meal was on Aviv 13.
It was a Passover meal as it was noted a few verses earlier:
Lk 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
By your chronology then the day when the Passover was killed was Aviv 12?
But this contradicts:
Nu 9:5 And they kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the first month at even in the wilderness of Sinai: according to all that the LORD commanded Moses, so did the children of Israel.
Nu 9:7 And those men said unto him, We are defiled by the dead body of a man: wherefore are we kept back, that we may not offer an offering of the LORD in his appointed season among the children of Israel?
Keeping the Passover (v.5), which is defined as offering an offering of the Lord 9 (v.7) was meant to be on the fourteenth.
I am confused, please explain.
Jesus ate the last supper after sunset on the evening of the 14th of Aviv. He was crucified during the afternoon of the 14th, just like all the Passover lambs were killed the 14th. The OT Passover was eaten on the 15th just after sunset. When Matt, Mark, and Luke say "first day of unleavened bread" it means they are starting to remove the leaven as the word "day" is not in the Greek, it's added. Otherwise, why would the chief priests and scribes not want to defile themselves by going into the court. They wanted to be pure before the start of the upcoming feast.
In regards to 3:41s question, check out website, As Bereans Did, they have articles worth reading. Easter parts 1 and 2 may help.
At church we take communion every Sunday morning, but we don't do the foot washing thing because that has nothing to do with anything.
Anon 6:47am,
Regarding your statement, "the word 'day' is not in the Greek, it's added", can you elaborate?
Only Matthew 26:17 does not have 'day' (Greek hemera), instead it has 'first' (Greek prote). Mark 14:12 has 'first day' (Greek prote hemera). Luke 22:7 has 'day' (Greek hemera).
I'm just curious and want to learn.
Thanks.
Matthew 26:17
Greek prote 3rd word
Interlinear: http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/26-17.htm
Parallel Greek: http://biblehub.com/texts/matthew/26-17.htm
Mark 14:12
Greek prote hemera 3rd and 4th words
Interlinear: http://biblehub.com/interlinear/mark/14-12.htm
Parallel: http://biblehub.com/texts/mark/14-12.htm
Luke 22:7
Greek hemera 4th word
Interlinear: http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/22-7.htm
Parallel Greek: http://biblehub.com/texts/luke/22-7.htm
eh, where I'm located the full moon occurs at approx. 8:30am on the 31st....which means the 15th begins at sunset on the 30th....which means the passover was last night (the 29th)...
why is it so difficult?
Anon 6:47am
Forgot to ask you about your statement "Otherwise, why would the chief priests and scribes not want to defile themselves by going into the court.". This is in John 18:28. Do you know where such is found in the synoptic gospels?
Only the writer of John claims Jesus is the Passover lamb. This is the reason why he had to advance his Last Supper account by 1 day for Jesus' crucifixion to coincide with the killing of the Passover lambs.
Thanks again.
Anon 9:16am,
There are several issues. Main issue is whether one follows the biblical calendar or the calculated (Hillel II) calendar. Next is whether a Christian follows John's or the Synoptic Gospels' Passover. The author of John has it one day ahead which is what the major ACOGs adopt.
The biblical calendar is based on the sighting of the new moon, not the full moon. New moon in the bible is not the new/dark moon. It is the first appearance of the crescent moon from the land of Israel. The determination whether the new month is the 1st of the new year or 13th month depends on the finding of the aviv barley. At least 1 ex-WCG group has different determination for the new year.
Use google for more information. Exercise caution when dealing with ACOGs or former WCG members. Some of them resort to character (or personality) assassination when refuting someone else teachings, considering that someone is from where they got their understanding.
The Truth is out there :)
nck said:
The Praetorium seems to have been Herod's Palace at the citadel. I'm not sure but I heard Antonia seems to have been a 200 ad construction.
Thanks for the question, nck. I tried to dodge this topic but you beat me to deleting my comment. As you mentioned previously on a different thread, I do support Dr Martin's position on the location of the Temple, over the Gihon Spring. Meaning that the "Temple Mount" today is no such thing. It was called the Haram esh-Sharif, and Ft Antonia in Herod's time, who expanded the platform and renamed it after Marc Antony.
I'm on my fifth reading of Dr Martin's book "The Temples that Jerusalem Forgot". The Temple of Herod was over the Gihon Spring in the City of David. It was the largest building in the world at that time, according to Martin. One corner was 450' above the Kidron Valley. The rock under the "Dome of the Rock" is the spot where the Messiah was most likely judged by Pilate. It was the place called the Gabbatha in John, meaning DOME, where judicial rulings were made, ie the Governor's headquarters. Apparently, Pilate lived in the Fort during the large pilgrimage festivals that could see up to two million visitors.
I agree with your view of the illegality of the apprehension and trial of the Messiah. He had His last meal (not Passover) on Aviv 13, and was arrested around midnight. He then went to Annas,Caiaphas,Pilate,Herod, and the back to Pilate. This all took place from His midnight arrest to approximately High Noon (John 19:14) on Aviv 13...then He was beaten and scourged some more, thrown in prison with the others, and taken out the next morning to be murdered. He was on the stake from 9AM to 3PM, when He died...just as the lambs were being slain at the Temple, right across from the execution sight. He was buried in the cave before the beginning of Passover which would start at that sunset, Aviv 15. Also it was the First day of ULB.
I do not know of anyone who does not agree to the Aviv 14 death of the Messiah at 3PM. Josephus makes it clear that the lambs were slain on the 14th of Nisan between the 9th and 11th hours, between the evenings. We go by the observable new moon crescent sightings from Israel. Actually this is the very event that led me out of GCG, when I asked Pack to his face about what Josephus said about the timing...Pack's answer was "This may not be the right church for you, Todd"...right in front of my family who was with me. That was the end of my time in the GCG, and what eventually led to True Bread.
TK
nck said: (continued)
The Romans served as the "sword might" later on, true to satisfy the local elites that worked with them.
The Romans later destroyed and leveled everything in Jerusalem. No structure remained intact. They destroyed the Temple down to bedrock and farmed the entire region. Obviously, they did not destroy their own fortress. Those megalithic rocks we can see today were there when the Messiah walked Jerusalem, and have NOT been destroyed. The City of David was completely destroyed and ploughed for farming. Pilgrims from later years said they couldn't even tell if a city had ever been there.
We here are busily getting ready for Passover, which will occur Sunday night at sunset, Aviv 15th. The ACOG's never kept the Passover, and do not do so to this day. They may have a mass-like spooky service in the basement of a Scottish Rite meeting hall, but that is NOT the Passover...they are trying to make the Last Supper into some kind of holy day, and then try to call the Passover the NTBMO. Plus they even have the days all screwed up due to using the Hillel II calculated calendar, including postponements. I've had ministers tie themselves in knots trying to defend and support using postponements, including COGWriter, whom I smashed on over a decade ago before I ever knew who he was. The worst was the LCG, when I asked them if COGwriter wrote doctrine for them. The LCG actually wrote me and said that the Passover lamb had nothing to do with the Messiah's death...!!! They had to make a worldwide retraction of that statement, after it got out online.
I only learned of "Banned" after my sister, still stuck in LCG, posted a Rod McNair Passover video on her FB page. I had never heard of him so I Googled his name and Banned was the first to pop up, and here I am a year later....still bashing them over the Passover issue.
I also had on videotape GTA stating that His group, the ICG, doesn't actually keep the Passover....but I no longer have that tape. He came right out and admitted it because he knew the truth. That's about when I quit his group, too.
I have many years worth of studies on this topic on my YT channel, and will give part 9 tomorrow for this year. I'll also be discussing the fact that Trump is the antichrist.
Have a peaceful rest day and Passover...
TK
Anonymous Anonymous said...
eh, where I'm located the full moon occurs at approx. 8:30am on the 31st....which means the 15th begins at sunset on the 30th....which means the passover was last night (the 29th)...
why is it so difficult?
March 30, 2018 at 9:16 AM
The "Passover"...the passing over of the Death Angel, occurred at midnight Aviv 15 in Egypt. It was a singular event to be memorialized forever. The lambs were slain on Aviv 14 between 3-5PM, ben ha arbyim. Not "twilight" as the ACOGs wrongly try to force on people.The killing of the lambs is NOT the Passover event. Its all in Exodus 12. There were no telescopes, satellites, or computers to predict when the moon was in conjunction, falsely called the "new moon". The crescents were sighted by witnesses up until Hillel II made the calculated calendar available, due to the diaspora. He also instill the "postponements" which move Holy Days away from the weekly rest day. Needless to say I don't buy into that garbage any more, like I did in my WCG days.
And where does it say to use the full moon for Passover, or any other Holy Day...?? It doesn't in my bibles. The Passover will occur this year on April 1, at sunset which is Aviv 15. It is also the first day of ULB.
TK
Yes and No wrote:
Nu 9:5 And they kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the first month at even in the wilderness of Sinai: according to all that the LORD commanded Moses, so did the children of Israel.
Nu 9:7 And those men said unto him, We are defiled by the dead body of a man: wherefore are we kept back, that we may not offer an offering of the LORD in his appointed season among the children of Israel?
Keeping the Passover (v.5), which is defined as offering an offering of the Lord 9 (v.7) was meant to be on the fourteenth.
I am confused, please explain.
March 30, 2018 at 3:41 AM
Yes and No, thanks for the question. I have studied this issue for over two decades now and it has led me to and through many groups and then to start True Bread, basically alone and separate from any WCG splinters, which I categorically reject, along with any HWA dogma. I have many years worth of experience with the WCG, growing up in it for a few years, then getting baptized and even attending AC/BS for a semester. I've been in the WCG/GCG/GTA/Dankenbring, and now just do my own thing.
In the OT, the act of killing the Passover lamb began to be called the Passover itself, but it is not the Passover. The lams were killed on the preparation of the Passover but over time the entire period became known as Passover, including the few days prior, as many thousands of people had to make a pilgrimage every year to Jerusalem, so I am guessing the entire event just became know as the Passover. I believe this is where the confusion comes in to play in the synoptics, as the writers called the last supper "Passover" when in fact it clearly was NOT the actual Passover meal served on Aviv 15, after the labs were slain on Aviv 14. As you well know, the Messiah was dying at the exact time as the lams were being killed at the Temple. Also, since the Sanhedrin was in effect, they would have declared the beginning of Aviv by the new moon observations, as well as if the barely were in the proper state, etc. Passover must be kept in Spring....some moths an additional month is added to keep the seasons lined up properly, called an "intercalation".
Hope this answers your question.
Have a happy Passover,
TK
www.truebread.us
correction:
Passover must be kept in Spring....some moths an additional month is added to keep the seasons lined up properly, called an "intercalation".
Sorry for typing too fast. I did proofread my post but mis-spelled "lambs" and "month". Actually I meant that some YEARS an additional MONTH is added.
TK
PS: wish we could edit our posts..!!!
True Bread writes:
the writers called the last supper "Passover" when in fact it clearly was NOT the actual Passover meal served on Aviv 15, after the labs were slain on Aviv 14. As you well know, the Messiah was dying at the exact time as the lams were being killed at the Temple.
Lk 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
Lk 22:8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.
Lk 22:11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
Lk 22:13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
Lk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
Mk 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
I cannot agree with you, after reading the above, where the “Passover” is mentioned five times in Luke, that this is not a “Passover meal”.
Luke’s “day of unleavened bread” is the fourteenth, when the “passover must be killed”. Christ and his disciples, therefore, ate the “Passover” on the fifteenth.
“As you well know, the Messiah was dying at the exact time as the lams were being killed at the Temple.”
The Messiah was not dying when “the passover must be killed” according to the calendar employed by the Synoptics. But He was dying, as He must to be a true Passover sacrifice, when the lambs were being killed on the fourteenth of John’s calendar.
"The synoptic Gospels present the last supper as a Passover meal that took place at the normal time, i.e., on 15 Nisan, which began at sundown on Thursday. (The lambs were sacrificed earlier that day, i.e., on 14 Nisan [cf. Mark 14:12].) The meal was eaten that night, and Jesus was arrested, given a mockery of a trial, and crucified on the same day, i.e., by Friday afternoon... In the Gospel of John, on the other hand, Jesus' death takes place at the time of the sacrificing of the Passover lambs, before eating of the Passover meal (cf. John 18:28). On this reckoning, 15 Nisan began twenty-four hours later than in the Synoptics, i.e., on Friday at sundown..." (Donald A. Hagner, Matthew 14-28, WBC, p.763).
"To relate John's passion chronology with that of the Synoptics, who clearly describe the Last Supper as a Passover meal, would require a separate excursus; suffice it to day here that while John times his passion narrative with references to the official temple date of the Passover, our Lord and his disciples, following (it may be) another calendar, observing the festival earlier" (F.F. Bruce, The Gospels & Epistles of John, p.279).
"So also I. H. Marshall, "Our conclusion, then, is that Jesus held a Passover meal earlier than the official Jewish date, and that he was able to do so as the result of calendar differences among the Jews" (Last Supper and Lord's Supper [Exter, 1980], p.75)" (Leon Morris, The Gospel According to John, Revised, NICNT, p.695).
YN wrote:
The Messiah was not dying when “the passover must be killed” according to the calendar employed by the Synoptics. But He was dying, as He must to be a true Passover sacrifice, when the lambs were being killed on the fourteenth of John’s calendar.
You contradict yourself in this sentence....I cannot help you if this is your position.
Tell me, when did the Messiah die...???
TK
It may seem that I am contradicting myself, I am not.
In answer to your question, Christ died Friday 7th April 30 AD; which was Nisan 14 on John’s calendar and Nisan 15 on the Synoptics calendar.
True Bread also writes:
He had His last meal (not Passover) on Aviv 13, and was arrested around midnight.
I cannot except that when Matthew, Mark, Luke and Jesus described/called it a Passover they didn’t really mean that it was a Passover meal.
1Co 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,
1Co 11:24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.”
1Co 11:25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
1Co 11:26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
So are you also implying that the NT Passover/Covenant was instituted on Aviv 13 and should also be kept on Aviv 13 as well?
True Bread
I am toning down a bit. Complaints are that my postings are long winding and distracting. Which is true since I donot enter into religious debate. Only providing context to secular concerns.
With a special fetish for majoring in the (often overlooked) minors.
The procedural legality of the trial would be my concern. (versus "murder")
The Roman concern on the trade routes extending into Sri Lanka through Arabia after a hundred years of trying to reason with the locals.
The traditions of the Celtic Church versus Rome of the 14th of Nisan passover before the anglo saxons turned catholic.
Regarding the razing of jerusalem 40 years after messiah walked there. We were dealing with people/fanatics jumping of cliffs with their entire families in massadah. Not unlike the Japanese in Okinawa. The situation seemed to warrant a Hiroshima type solution to the problem, while sending a message to other groups trying secession from the empire. Such rebellion could not stand and was to be crushed for the sake of free trade.
All Iraeli officers were sworn in at Massadah until recently. It is no surprise Japanese intelligence was interested in WCG diplomacy, entering into cultural and technological exchange with a nation that like the Japanese deemed itself as chosen, set apart by the Gods and willing to sacrifice all, to defend that belief. The diplomatic minutes show that the Japanese Gods initiated these contacts of cultural exchange through wcg, while the entire Japanese diplomatic corps tried to satisfy arab diplomacy after the 1967 war, japan being completely dependent on middle eastern oil. Of course later on the GII logs show the Japanese sons flown into Quatar and Kuwait. (and south africa for nuclear exchange)
The Rothchild held legal title to the City of David when it was still farmed. Yesterday 1400 people were injured claiming a "return". Interesting developments.
I read both mr martins thesis and his opponents. Since I am not an expert I am awaiting more archeological support. Which is underway. Although it may take time for definite conclusions and perhaps would warrant the razing of the entire arab quarter, which would in turn ignite ww3. I am hoping for a lucky find then. One of the city of david finds was recently used by netanyahu in the security council to make a point on Irans nuclear program.
So COG involvement is, each with their own agenda, still of major influence on the world scene. Without anyone seeing the complete picture. It is like the blind men touching an elephant on all sides trying to explain what it is. Some are touching the tail, others the belly, others the front or ears. Non of them is explaining the elephant right in front of them. Therefore my fetish with the workings of empire. Which is the elephant.
Nck
YN wrote:
In answer to your question, Christ died Friday 7th April 30 AD; which was Nisan 14 on John’s calendar and Nisan 15 on the Synoptics calendar.
I gotta tell ya YN, I've heard some crazy, far out theories on the Passover, but you just took the cake...now you're telling me there are TWO calendars in the Gospels...??? WOW...!!! It seems like you are forced into that position, because otherwise everything you believe is wrong, which it is. You are alose asserting that the Father and the Messiah, plus the disciples and all other Jews in Jerusalem didn't know what day was what and that John is using a wrong calendar....man that is coo-coo for coaco puffs. John 13:1 makes it perfectly clear that it was NOT yet Passover. You can't have a Passover without a PASSOVER LAMB....but you're trying to make the case John, and the Messiah were OFF a day. I can assure you it is not them who are off, but you and all of your other WCG buddies who are off.
Today, right now in VA, it is Aviv 14. The Messiah would have been in prison since approx 2PM earlier today, until around sunrise tomorrow, then taken OUT of prison and murdered on the stake, starting at 9AM Aviv 14. He died at 3PM on the same day, as the PASSOVER LAMBS were being slain just across the valley at the Temple.
As far as your mentioning Paul and the bread and wine ceremony, so what..?? We do that all the time...we just had a bread and wine service here a couple of hours ago, and we will have one tomorrow for Passover, which begins at sunset, Aviv 15. The "last supper" is not and never will be "Passover". That is a concoction of HWA, an error which has continued to this very day. Plus he used the satanic Hillel II calendar with postponements, which you probably go by, by the sound of your post.
If this is your position, I don't think I can help you much....
Either way, happy Passover...
TK
Aeriel wrote:
Only the writer of John claims Jesus is the Passover lamb. This is the reason why he had to advance his Last Supper account by 1 day for Jesus' crucifixion to coincide with the killing of the Passover lambs.
Thanks again.
March 30, 2018 at 9:42 AM
This is the most WRONG statement ever posted to Banned...try these verses to prove your post is nonsense:
1. Gen 3:15
2. Gen 22:8
3. Isaiah 53:7
4. Acts 8:30-33
5. 1 Cor 5:7
6. Hebrews 9:11-14
7. Hebrews 10:4-22
8. 1 Peter 1:18-21
9. Rev 5:1-14
10. Rev 7:14-17
11. Rev 12:11
12. Rev 14:1-4
13. Rev 15:3
14. Rev 17:14
15. Rev 19:7-9
16. Rev 21:9-14, 22-27
17. Rev 22:1
That enough...?? You're so wrong why do you even post your nonsense here..??You seem very anti-messiah, almost to the point of hateful.
Also your claim of John moving up a day for Passover is nonsensical, which I have addressed at other places.
TK
Nck,
I understand your feelings.
Would you agree with me that the Roman Empire, from Augustus up until today stills exists..???
My position is this: King of the North (Roman Empire)
iteration:
1. Caesars
2. Napoleon (not 100% on this)
3. Hilter
4. Trump
Trump is the final King of the North, and antichrist, as mentioned in Dan 11:40-44, as well as Rev 13 and 2 Thes 2:3... I've got more on this, but this is enough for now...
TK
Jesus was not a messiah. He was not god. Tanakh is the only inspired Scriptures for me. I do not accept NT claims that are contrary to Tanakh. I'm not anti-messiah, I'm anti-missionary.
I should have qualified my statement by explicitly limiting it to the gospel writers. Some of your questions have been discussed in the past. Just go back to my previous comments in this post and the other one ("RFA: LCG members are the ...").
Chag Ha'Matzot
"Would you agree with me that the Roman Empire, from Augustus up until today stills exists..???"
Fitting two semesters of Roman Law into 3 sentences.
a) The idea of order and structure versus chaos is in full power. The conspiratist call it babylon, economists call it globalisation. (driven by the technological exponential developments toward singularity)
b) The Roman Catholic dioceses of Europe exactly mirror the Roman administrative territorial centers. They are a distant shadow of the Roman empire
c) The legal successors to the Roman Empire were (Kiew/Moscow Eastern leg after the fall of Byzantium), Western Leg, the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, moving into the Holy Roman Empire. When Napoleon crowned himself after the defeat of the Habsburg he took legal posession of the Imperial titles.
Mussolini tried to revive a fascist empire encircling the Mediterenean. Even in alliance with Hitlers Germany I don't think they held any legal title to being the successors of the Roman empire like the last emperors, Napoleon and the Habsburg and Romanov after WWI.
Nazi Germany as a revival is largely a symbolic construct but not a legal one I believe.
The European Union does hold legal title to the laws and customs of the Roman legal system as set forth by Justinian.
Trump I don't know much about only that the world does not regard him as the moral authority leading the West or North as an agent of any God.
But who knows we're only in year one.
I do know that in 1990 a friend of mine who was dismayed by developments in wcg and was receiving pcg literature at the time asked me about if time would be short and the beast power would rise in Europe.
As somewhat of an expert on European legal procedure and the workings of the EC I answered truthfully that even if apocalyptic predictions were true it could for simple reasons hidden in procedure, construction and reality, occur within 20 years from that moment. Today we are 30 years further. So I hold on to the reality of facts over speculation. (as I diddduring my decades in wcg)
nck
OOOOOOOOOOPS
my 4:53 should have been
could for simple reasons hidden in procedure, construction and reality, NNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOTTTTTTTT occur within 20 years from that moment....
Sorry.
nck
nck said...
OOOOOOOOOOPS
my 4:53 should have been
could for simple reasons hidden in procedure, construction and reality, NNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOTTTTTTTT occur within 20 years from that moment....
Nck...I gathered that was your meaning...
The "beast power" of Rev 13 (seven heads, ten horns) is the G7, ruling the Club of Rome. The Club of Rome, or Committee of 300, basically rules the earth, and has the planet divided into ten economic zones.
The "seven heads" are the nations that comprise the G7. The anti-christ will rule/direct the seven heads, which will in turn rule/direct the ten zones...seven heads and ten horns.
The muscle behind the "beast" is the King of the North: USA/NATO/EU/Israel, who are basically as I type taking over the Middle East, setting the stage for conflict with the King of the South,(Islamic block) and the Kings from the East(Russia/China).
The USA/Pentagon directs NATO, and Trump is president. He is also the antichrist (little horn). We don't have long to wait until May 14th of this year, as he will direct the moving of the US Embassy to Jerusalem. He may/will start construction of the last Temple, and sign the seven year peace agreement. What I am saying is that, as opposed to the nonsense from WCG, WE are the beast power and WE are trying to take over the planet. I refer you to the Wolfowitz Doctrine, and to Wesley Clark's comments about "seven nations in five years". Its on YT.
Also, I recommend Dr Paul Craig Roberts work, where he continuously slams Trump and the USA for trying to start a nuclear was with Russia...the recent false attack on the ex-Soviet spy with the nerve agent is a perfect example. I had the opportunity to interview PCR on my radio program a few years ago. He stated that we didn't need prophecy to explain to us what is happening in the world, which I found shocking.
The USA/NATO/EU/Israel block, King of the North, is the final iteration of the Roman Empire, the Fourth Reich...after Hitler's Third Reich, as I stated previously. I'm certain you are very familiar with all of the common symbology between each Roman system, starting with the Caesars, given your background...
I have many many videos on these subjects if you're interested. I wonder how long it will be before shower-curtain Bob plagiarizes my work...??
btw....are you a FAC in the Air Force...?? One of my students returned recently from the sandbox...ANG Helo driver...plus I have many ex-military student types who served there.
TK
TK
I don't know how many FAC' did take Roman Law classes. I suppose it would be a first.
I was in Raqqa when the archeological sites were still open. Later I was kicked out of a museum in Haifa for the stamps in my passport. I don't blame them for making a point. But there are some stiff necked people in the ME regarding seekers of data.
(as an aside: in the seventies AC sponsored many a dig in Syria also while most know about the temple mount digs, these served to strengthen diplomatic ties between Syria and the USA)
Now regarding your other comments.
-I try and stay clear of religious debate
-This is for the purpose of respect and goodwill among mankind (and I have encountered many types of many faiths in good spirit)
-I jest, joke, kid in life and on blogs. However, by the example I gave you must have noticed that when asked a direct and personal question I am obliged to give answers to the best of my ability and they may appear ruthless to the asking party, therefore I often descend into evading mode as to respect the star ships enterprise prime directive.
You have explained your perspective before.
-I see you perceive the others in G10/11/20 as more of honorary titles.
-For now I ususally speak of "coordination" between nations. I understand the use of "rule" depending on definition.
-Out of sheer interest I once followed a blog that claimed Putin as the antichrist as the only person championing christianity in the middle east as the usa was losing political influence by stepping aside in the Syria crisis. Prompting action by Iran in Yemen, Syria and even attacks by proxy on Saudi Arabia. So I find it interesting to meet someone picking another actor.
Of course Nato has an American military command structure, but the alliance also consists of a European political structure. (Secretary General)
-Yes I evaded the 3rd reich symbolism as I focussed on the legal framework starting with Justinian that had legal successors.
I see how you perceive the block you call "4th".
Especially when discussions on BI evolve I ususally evade the religious or genetic aspects of that function of our former association. I have however many times pointed at "the five eyes", "the american empire " as it succeeded the British empire and anglo saxon domination of the post WWII world order through IMF, the World Bank etc etc etc.
Today we are seeing the eroding of that post wwii world order. (through for instance the chinese belt and road initiative). Or Russia using the UN as a tool for their own agenda using rules and procedures that have served the USA in the past. At the same time we see the possibility of a greater span of control through technological developments.
Well it was good to share some of my perspective.
I have tried to not offend anyone. It is in my nature to bend toward the position of another when asked genuine questions, which may at times be mistaken for taking that position.
Therefore it is easier for me to throw around gems of insights on an impersonal basis, which many have commented on as being ludicrous, disturbed or at least worded in a way that is impossible to understand.
My position is that it is impossible to cater to everyones tastes. But if one likes to higlight a particular I at times provide sources grounded in centers of learning.
A particular difference in our opinion strikes me that you say that the 4th block is trying to take over the ME, whereas in my perception I see a reduction in influence. However the Syria crisis might lead to some restructuring in the ME. It is not that Sykes and Picot drew lines with eternal truth in mind.
nck
The first two sentences mean I am not a FAC.
Nck
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