Waiting for Sunset...
Last evening was the first time in 45 years I was once again out in the yard with a telescope for an cold night of just observing what cannot be seen with out it and what was never seen before it. It is a time machine and with it I can relax into a calm recognition that life is short and the Universe is oh so very large. Back in the 70's, while going through my first round of church scandal and chaos, I often simply sat with my 5" Celestron on Summer and Winter nights keeping my own perspectives in difficult times. Winter or Summer I knew the sky well and I have not lost that need to see it all even better now at the other end of life.
Our parents were taught the Universe was simply the entire Milky Way Galaxy. That as it. We now know it is but one of perhaps 10 to 20 trillion each with hundreds of billions of suns and many more planets.
I choose to first find our closest galactic neighbor which I had not seen for decades in a telescope. The Andromeda Galaxy, visible to naked eye if you know where and how to look, was directly overhead. With a bit of star hopping memories I was able to find it in the new 10 inch Reflector. There it was. Two and half million light years away. Twice the size of our Galaxy and containing perhaps one trillion stars and trillions of more planets. It's companion galaxy just barely visible, being much smaller off to the side in the field of view.
From there a brief look at the Pleiades which are mentioned in Job 38:31 along with the stars in Orion's Belt which also lead to the Orion Nebula, a stellar nursery that is amazing in a 10 inch scope.
These two constellations have fascinated humans for a couple hundred thousand years and they are the stuff of many myths and star lore.
Job 38:31
"Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades? Can you loosen Orion's belt?
"Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades? Can you loosen Orion's belt?
So nothing controversial here as the year winds to a close on our sharing of church experiences, lessons learned and snark.
Just a reminder that when it is all said and done. And it will be done in time, we are left with the fact that we live in an amazing place in an amazing time discovering and appreciating amazing things which should give us pause and perspective .
"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." – Maya Angelou
NASA Megapixel Images of the Heart of Andromeda
Caution:
View only if you want to make your brain hurt
A beautiful overview of Andromeda for those with a bit more time
The lesson staring us all in the face
Humility
Carl Sagan
42 comments:
Better ask Bob Thiel about this Dennis. He's the authority on everything there is to know.
One of my favorites~
https://binged.it/34Jgwdj
Thanks for posting, Dennis. Society teaches our youth that things like this are boring and geeky, and all they should pay attention to is their phone, Taylor Swift, and social media, which seems pretty myopic to me.
Obviously, as a species, making our living has always necessarily been an earthbound affair, but I can see how the ancients, when the day's work was done and the blue sky turned into a light show every night, looked up with awe and wondered what that was all supposed to be about. What were they supposed to understand by it? Despite the fact we have every reason to know better than that today, it is not that difficult to understand how near-complete ignorance combined with that feeling of awe turned into spiritualism and the presumption of supernatural anthropomorphic agencies.
But even without the gods, I can't imagine what it would be like to have no perspective—to look up into a blank night sky of perfect darkness and not be able to see that there's something else out there—to have no sense that that this is not the only place there is. How diminished our existence would be if all we could know about was the surface of our tiny planet and nothing else?
If that's boring and geeky, then I don't wanna be cool. It's not worth it.
Dennis:
Your post has a wistful, Ecclesiastes-like quality to it. I am reminded of this famous quote from Roy Batty in "Blade Runner":
"I’ve seen things you people wouldn’t believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die."
The winter sky is much more interesting than the Summer sky for sure Dennis! However it does require the patience to view in very cold conditions, always a drawback.
When one realizes that time is relative, and that you never ever actually see anything as it is, but only as it was, (even at short distances, although the time difference is imperceptible) , it makes one realize that everything is a strange illusion. Combined with the fact that matter is mostly consisting of space, it makes one ponder deeply on just what is reality at all!
The pics are a heart warming reminder of Christians eternal inheritance.
And there'll be no church crazies or apostate killjoys to ruin things for everyone. Crazy people will be a distant, faded memory. It will be truly amazing.
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Genesis 2:17
what about this do u not understand??? prefer you death over obedience???
c f ben yochanan
pleae, stop censoring me
CFBY (Christian Fanatic's Best Yogurt?) wrote:
prefer you death over obedience???
And that's the problem in a nutshell. You cannot simultaneously obey Jesus, YHVH, Allah, Zeus, Quetzalcoatl, Thor, and Vishnu. Most people simply choose the god worshipped by most of the people with whom they would like to spend eternity. Except for the Buddhists, who laugh at all of this, believing that although consciousness may persist eternally your individual identity will not.
4.26 PM
I fail to see the connection between Dennis's post and your comment.
Would you care to explain?
Nightflix is thousands of year older than Netflix! :)
DD's post seems to believe that viewing the universe through a telescope will gives a greater view of human life than human relationships. If we look at the scriptures we will find that God is not bragging about the awesomeness of His creation, but is reminding us that He has given us a life that symbolizes His existence. I doubt that learning everything we can about the universe will draw us closer to God and the life He has given us in harmony with His will and purpose for living beings.
I personally prefer to focus on developing family relationships that are drawing people closer to God and the hope given in the Christian faith. Even if there was no God; building biblical family relationships will bring more joy and contentment than the greatest knowledge a person could possibly achieve star gazing. ASB
C F Been Jokin' said:
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Genesis 2:17
what about this do u not understand??? prefer you death over obedience???"
Actually yes, prefer I it over your version of obedience and also prefer I you on the topic to stick. Or prefer you censoring over contributing?
people in the wrong can offer little more than personal insults since their original premise doesnt hold water...
childish name calling and mocking is the best indicator of an inferior point of view...
now regarding ur "topic": ur love of knowledge is vanity...there has been a long history of the persuit of knowledge, and thus far the "knowledge" gained has netted us human beings but one result: death...
so what good is it? it did nothing for eve but cost her the life of her son, and its been costly ever since...
it is Written in Ezekiel 28:12-19 that the devil was full of wisdom and knowledge, but once iniquity was found in him, he got tossed; how much more so will we living corpses...
c f ben yochanan
please stop cemsoring me
oh, and btw: lucifers example proves that God could very easily simply give us all the knowledge we could ever want, and then some...but is it really worth it?
c f ben yochanan
please stop censoring me
C f Ben yochanan
If knowledge and wisdom are evil, why post here? Why complain about being censored?
"now regarding ur "topic": ur love of knowledge is vanity...there has been a long history of the persuit of knowledge, and thus far the "knowledge" gained has netted us human beings but one result: death..."
Ur love of ignore-ance, that which we ignore. isn't all that great either. There has been a long history of the pursuit of ignore-ance and religion and thus far the ignore-ance perpetuated has netted us human beings one result: more ignore-ance.
"so what good is it? it did nothing for eve but cost her the life of her son, and its been costly ever since..."
Evidently much more than you are willing to admit or recognize. The way you process your world would depress the average person.
"it is Written in Ezekiel 28:12-19 that the devil was full of wisdom and knowledge, but once iniquity was found in him, he got tossed; how much more so will we living corpses..."
The story of the fall of lucifer is inspired by the light bringer in the morning sky, Venus, which as an inner planet seemed to usher in the Great Light or "God" as was thought many mornings. (It also is an evening star a tonight). It was bright but not as bright as the sun. It appeared to head for the position of Most High (Noon) but then fell back to earth. This perplexed early people and the story of Venus the Light bringer as "son of the morning star", the sun was fleshed out into the Ezekiel 28 tale.
Here ya go: https://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com/search?q=diehl+venus+son+of+the+morning+star
Ezekiel had a habit of watching NightFlix and coming up with stories that explained it all to him which he passed on to others. His taking of the constellations of Winter, Spring, Summer and Fall is another example and the one he used to come up with his idea of what he thought Cherubim looked like. You know, the Face of man, a bull, a lion and an eagle.
which is really the winter constellation of Aquarius, the Waterman followed three months later by Taurus, the Bull. Three months later Leo, the Lion of Summer and finally three months later in Fall, Aquila the Eagle.
As above, so below as they say.
So in this sense you did stay on topic.
c f ben yochanan
please, start censoring him.
And too...once you see the astro-theological connections to the stories told, you can't unsee them.
Admittedly, it is not something most would ever recognize as a way people of days gone by, with the clarity of the desert night skies unpolluted by modern lighting came to tell their stories explaining their world of devils and demons, angels and gods.
The stories explained what they thought stars and planets were and why they behaved as they did. The stories explained why they seemed to move and how they changed during the seasons. The stories explained the apparent journey of the inexplicable sun through those constellations and why days got longer at times and shorter at others. The fear of the sun not returning in the dead of winter provoked the stories of resurrection and hope.
Imagine seeing the Milky Way and all the night skies had to offer at a time when few, if any had a clue what that all was. In some ways, I imagine the priests of the day knew more about it than the common people they sought to congrol with their esoteric knowledge of the heavens. It is why they were priests. Mayan Priests used to stand atop their pyramids every morning raising the sun for the people in full view. Impressive! :) I am sure people got to thinking it might not rise without priestly interventions.
Stars were thought to be alive and beings of light. Their astrology evolved into our astronomy just as nephrology evolved into neurology and the ignorance of those times into the understanding of ours.
Hubbell has revealed what no humans have ever known or could know. Wait til you see what the James Webb telescope reveals when they finally get it into orbit 1 million miles from earth in a couple years.
Actually yes, prefer I it over your version of obedience and also prefer I you on the topic to stick. Or prefer you censoring over contributing?
Dennis, now you're just mocking the poor guy. Think you Country's Finest Best Yoda to be?
please start censoring cfby
Ignorance
Ignorance is a lack of knowledge and information. The word "ignorant" is an adjective that describes a person in the state of being unaware, and can describe individuals who deliberately ignore or disregard important information or facts, or individuals who are unaware of important information or facts.
Ignorance can appear in three different types: factual ignorance (absence of knowledge of some fact), objectual ignorance (unacquaintance with some object), and technical ignorance (absence of knowledge of how to do something).
knowledge and wisdom is not evil; what is evil is the price we are willing to pay to get it...
we are willing to sacrifice our lives for a sliver of knowledge rather than simply obeying God and receiving eternal life and the knowledge what comes with it...
c f ben yochanan
ignorance of the Way of God is indeed the epitome of ignorance and lack of knowledge...
c f ben yochanan
for all the alledged virtues of their great knowledge, frankly that is the best they can do...
ASB said:
"DD's post seems to believe that viewing the universe through a telescope will gives a greater view of human life than human relationships."
You're over thinking this. Viewing what is out there has nothing to do with a greater view of human life vs human relationships. It has to do with "wow, that is so cool" Don't make a simple appreciation for having a tool that can see what the eyes never can of and by themselves, invented BTW by human reasoning and knowledge :), has to have anything to do with competing with human relationships.
" If we look at the scriptures we will find that God is not bragging about the awesomeness of His creation, but is reminding us that He has given us a life that symbolizes His existence."
There is plenty of praise (bragging implies a motive of selfish promotion) by humans who are expected to praise God for all his mighty works. Bible God seems to enjoy the praise and worship. It goes with the turf of "worship me" we see throughout scripture. You know, you SHALL love the Lord thy God with ALL your heart..... (or I"ll kill you:)
The heavens, evidently and according to scripture, were made to declare the glory of God, which is somewhat self centered. Don't read that part where "night unto night utters knowledge." You'll drive CF nuts promoting knowledge. That's your personal philosophy about it all, which is fine, but you don't need to think I "seem to imply" anything with telescope use.
"Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, (God: I CAN) or loose the bands of
Orion? (God:I CAN)Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth (The Zodiac with the Constellations. God: I CAN) in his season? or canst thou guide
Arcturus with his sons?" (Make them travel through the heavens. GOD: I CAN)-Job 38:31,32 KJV Of course today we understand that God has been replaced by gravitational attraction, the axial tilt of the earth and how that came to be and the rotation of the earth and not the rising of the Sun as if it moved around us.
" I doubt that learning everything we can about the universe will draw us closer to God and the life He has given us in harmony with His will and purpose for living beings."
Probably not. It will most likely explain things that the Bible attributes to the gods which have nothing to do with the gods doing anything. Knowledge tends to relegate the God of the gaps to a smaller and smaller role in it all.
"I personally prefer to focus on developing family relationships that are drawing people closer to God and the hope given in the Christian faith. Even if there was no God; building biblical family relationships will bring more joy and contentment than the greatest knowledge a person could possibly achieve star gazing. ASB"
Which is perfectly fine for you to do and a noble way to live. But again, I just enjoy seeing what my parents could never envision and 99% of all humanity could never imagine, so easily. Don't overthink simple pleasures.
"Bible God seems to enjoy the praise and worship."
Does he enjoy praise and worship or does he know that without it we'll just become non-believers?
Same concept as does he demand sacrifices or does he know that's the only way to imprint the wages of sin in our minds?
ANON wrote:
ignorance of the Way of God is indeed the epitome of ignorance and lack of knowledge...
c f ben yochanan
December 20, 2019 at 5:37 AM
-----------------------------------------------------
My reply: Ignorance is not investigating where the book you live your life by originated from.
And please, start censoring c f ben yochanan
f c Ben yochanan
Yours is the standard church song that I've heard for decades. And it's wrong. It envisions a world where a wise elite dominates those under them, There is no freedom, liberty or rights. People are literally treated like children, acting by permission rather than right. It's the worlds biggest false god. As the saying goes, name one successful society that was based on this principle. It can't succeed since it's in opposition to mans nature. By contrast, the parable of the talents is in harmony to mans God given nature. Your ideal society is Borg. North Korea is a physical manifestation of this vision. And I don't see people like yourself migrating to that country.
Today's churches, including the ACOGs, point out their achievements. But they hide the greater blessings that could have been theirs had they embraced freedom over tyranny.
A highly recommended book on this topic is 'The discovery of freedom' by Rose Wilder Lane. It's in the public domain and can by downloaded for free on many websites.
Dennis, of all the concepts that you have discussed on this blog, from the Jesus myth to evolution to whatever, did you actually not know any of this when you were a WCG minister? Was all of this actually new to you when you started questioning WCG and HWA? If so, amazing! Now you want to be our teacher. lol
or u could simply ignore me...
I must admit Dennis, that at first glance , I thought you had a CANNON in your back yard for a minute, and that maybe you were going "postal".
Nice telescope indeed!
(DD et al, sorry but pls don't mind this comment as this is for CFBY only)
CF Ben Y,
1. Can you cite the verse(s) in Isaiah and Ezekiel where Satan is mentioned? I do not find any
2. Can you cite a verse in the entire Tanakh that mentions Satan disobeying God? I do not find any. Satan is more obedient to God than you, or anyone of us, are. He is portrayed either as an agent of God, man's accuser or prosecutor. He is designed and created as such. Like all the other angels, he doesn't have free will. Angels are messengers (from Hebrew malach) of God who carry out His divine will.
3. Is the king of Tyre different from the prince of Tyre? No, it is a form of Hebrew parallelism. Solomon is identified as king and 'prince' in 1 Chronicles 29:22 (see NRSV, ESV, ASV, ERV, JPS 1917, Darby, Douay-Rheims and World English). The 'prince' is from the same Hebrew 'nagid' in Ezekiel 28:2.
4. Is Isaiah 14 about Satan? No, it is about the king of Babylon (v4). Various translations of v4 describe the passage as taunt, mockery, parable, proverb, song of contempt, lamentation or simile.
5. Have you heard of Athtar the Awesome? Google it and you'll find similarities with Isa 14:12-15.
I can discuss with you Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 in more detail. Either post your email address or a website we can use. I do not wish to hijack this thread.
ASB at 8:24 wrote:
I personally prefer to focus on developing family relationships that are drawing people closer to God and the hope given in the Christian faith. Even if there was no God; building biblical family relationships will bring more joy and contentment than the greatest knowledge a person could possibly achieve star gazing
I think we may have found ourselves an ACOG splinter minister here, or at least a similar attitude. I think we might be surprised to discover how many of Dennis' old ministerial friends join him in rejecting Armstrong theology, but have taken their rejection in a different direction, deciding to perpetuate a "useful lie" and teach what they consider to be the "good parts" of Armstrongism, such as the emphasis on family and morality, which is also a better alternative than finishing their lives as disrespected Walmart greeters instead of respected ministers.
c f ben yochanan wrote:
"we are willing to sacrifice our lives for a sliver of knowledge rather than simply obeying God and receiving eternal life and the knowledge what comes with it...ignorance of the Way of God is indeed the epitome of ignorance and lack of knowledge..."
So true! Everyone has forgotten the Way of Zeus! If only pplz would return to Zeus to receive eternal life and the Knowledge of Zeus!
So true! Everyone has forgotten the Way of Zeus! If only pplz would return to Zeus to receive eternal life and the Knowledge of Zeus!
Anon 1:15 PM needs to keep up. There are already thousands of nutters in the "Sacred Names" movements who believe that "Jesus" is a corruption of the name of Zeus, and that people who worship a being named "Jesus" are actually worshipping the pagan god Zeus!
Tonto said...
I must admit Dennis, that at first glance , I thought you had a CANNON in your back yard for a minute, and that maybe you were going "postal".
Nice telescope indeed!
It is indeed! I opted for the less portable and not motor driven because of cost but also a ten inch mirror is worth having over something smaller. It is about as heavy as I'd want to transport. It's an Apertura 10" Dobsonian Reflector. I know the sky pretty well so star hoping works for me. The motor driven ones are cool as you punch in the star/cluster/galaxy coordinates and the scope finds it for you. Nice but very expensive and I have visions of the motor going out. I have hand crank windows in my car too! lol.
While finding the looking at the Andromeda Galaxy last evening, a small meteor zipped through the field of view too. That was a fluke but pretty cool. It could not have been seen without it accidently passing through the scope field of view.
Not a night goes by that I don't have David's words in mind when I go for a walk and looking up at the moon and stars am struck with awe: "When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou has ordained; What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?"
Tonto December 19, 2019 at 1:18 PM said: "When one realizes that time is relative, and that you never ever actually see anything as it is, but only as it was, (even at short distances, although the time difference is imperceptible) , it makes one realize that everything is a strange illusion. Combined with the fact that matter is mostly consisting of space, it makes one ponder deeply on just what is reality at all!"
That's so very deep Tonto! Are you able to please explain and/or clarify your meaning? I do recall reading when younger that when we look at the stars we're supposedly looking back in time, but the implication of your statement as I understood it was that even now looking at others and objects in the present we're looking back in time and so it's all illusory. And on time travel I saw the trailer to the latest Christopher Nolan flick Tenet which looks intriguing.
Anonymous December 20, 2019 at 10:23 AM re Isaiah and Ezekiel and Satan
Thanks you! I was going to make a similar comment myself since I've read of alternative origins for Satan as well. For instance, one that takes in the information you supplied is that Satan's fall actually occurred in the Garden of Eden as stated in Genesis. He was an angel of light and then chose to sin and influence Adam and Eve to sin too. Irrespective of his origins we know his ultimate fate and that's all that matters in the end. Good wins and the bad guy dies forever.
The allignments at Newgrange Ireland send their wintersolstice love to your telescope as elder brothers.
Nck
I've always said that one man's scatology is another man's eschatology. While you are all chewing on that one for a while, I'll also mention that as a life long observer of people, I've witnessed varying degrees of importance attached to knowledge, people embracing knowledge or covering up their intelligence, some looking to the hyperintelligent as role models or examples, others rejecting them because they make them feel less than, and some being oblivious to it all, just doing whatever was required to get along, and to put food on the table.
I believe that we as a group were groomed to realize the importance of knowledge as a vital part of life. However, knowledge was defined by and limited to the Armstrong set of insider gnosticism. "How did you come into the truth?" was one of the frequent questions heard at sabbath services and social events. Many search anew, and replace this gnosticism with a more realistic and fact-based collection, a more accurate world view, so to speak, when they leave. I remember going back to smoking cigarettes for several years when I left. Back in the mid 1970s, in the aftermath of the great disappointment of 1975, many of us left on the buddy system. We didn't need to worry about losing our friends, because most of us left together. I remember offering one friend a cigarette as I lit one up. He said something archetypical, a spur of the moment comment that was so profound that it became a new paradigm, and it actually became a factor in my quitting smoking in the early 1980s. He said, "Bob, if your only reason for not smoking was the church, then sure, why not go back to it? Personally, I have other reasons for not smoking."
The human mind never ceases to amaze me in its various workings. There is so much about life that is just a snapshot in time. We live in a world that is constantly changing, and for our very survival, our knowledge must continue to grow. I know some people who got stuck in the 1990s, perhaps the last relatively simple decade in which we lived. I've watched their businesses and their lives languish as they have failed to keep up with technology.
Pragmatism is a very important concept, one that can keep us all vital and viable.
BB
Dennis, you should have sent that $700 to Dave Pack!
Anonymous said...
Dennis, you should have sent that $700 to Dave Pack!
I have nothing "in common" with Dave :)
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