"If you are true to materialist atheism, you should not apologize to anyone for anything. What would be the grounds? There is no morality other than what you arbitrarily determine. And even it you determine a "morality" for yourself, it doesn't mean anything to anyone else. And since you are just roiling protoplasm, not really different from an flowing amoeba except in size, why should you expect anyone to apologize to you? And if you know God does not exist, why should you be angry at Him or resentful? You should be totally chilled out waiting for the expiration of your meaningless life."
BannedHWA : Apologies and Why They Matter
Comment
(total bullshit :)
Atheism is one of the "splinters" that arises when religion fails to deliver historically or personally. It can arise, as in my own experience, from years of soaking in the scriptures and recognizing the problems therein with the stories. In my personal experience, it is not because of the failure of "that Church" or "those people." It is not "You're just angry at God." Perhaps I am in the same way I could be angry at the Witch in Hansel and Gretel putting them in cages. Other than that I think we realize that I can't really be angry at the characters in a myth or human construct.
I can't tell you how many churches I have been invited to that claim they are not like that and I would be totally happy with them. It arose because I have always been one who wants to know. It got me into the church as a teen and out as an adult having spent way too long doing so. Or maybe it was just the right amount of time needed. That is what I accept along with all that went with the transition back to who and how I have always been as a person. Religion put my natural curiosities on hold and the way things really are on the back shelf for a time.
I consider and have ample evidence in my life that spirituality does not escape me. If anything, I have the freedom to be more spiritual than I did confined in WCG or Christianity itself. . This spirituality is not Bible based. It is not Buddhist based. It is not something that someone else delivers to me. It comes from the absolute awe of being alive. It comes from within and a gratitude for being conscious of this experience of being alive.
l
It is reflected in my desk here covered in meteorites 4.5 billion years old, trilobites 450 million, Megalodon teeth the size of my hand at 12 million and many stone tools where once was the hand of another and now mine. They range from 1.8 million out of Africa to the last Ice Age though the stone age. They speak to me of lives lived .
In spite of the way some think they can define atheism, it is not a religion and takes no faith to practice it. Faith, as we should all know by now, is belief in that for which there is no evidence. I am evidence based plain and simple and it fuels the wonder of it all.
It's why the living room looks like this too...
The orange 5 inch Schmidt-Cassegrain has been with me for 45 years. I look through it as a young man. The 10 Inch reflector is my upgrade of late 45 years later. The small one got me through the Church scandals of the 70's. The large one provides evenings of awe at the other end of my life.
This flowing Amoeba composed of roiling protoplasm is this and feels this every day of my life...
"My Spirituality as an Atheist"
or whatever...
"My Spirituality as an Atheist"
or whatever...
78 comments:
I can't tell you how many churches I have been invited to that claim they are not like that and I would be totally happy with them.
Dennis, have you ever hung out with a Unitarian-Universalist congregation? I don't know whether they even have those where you are, but I have some friends who are basically agnostic-deist types who love their Unitarian-Universalist congregations and don't feel pressured to believe in any particular woo that some believers might try to offer. They think of it as warm fellowship with smart people who are as skeptical as they are, and the literal existence or specific identity of their Higher Power is apparently even less important than in Alcoholics Anonymous.
Dennis says 'faith is...belief in that for which there is no evidence.'
Not really. Faith is belief in that for which there is no direct five sense evidence. None of the laws of chemistry or physics are directly discernable to the five senses.. All we see are the effects, and hence deduce their existence. For instance, objects drop, so we conclude that there must be gravity. This is the scientific method. Yet it's denied when it comes to God. Only dancing angels or directly speaking to God is considered proof. So we have a double standard. One standard for me, another for thee.
'I am evidenced based, plain and simple..'
The Catholic church makes the same claim, but we all know that they use reason as a handmaid to their theology.
4.43 AM
Just wondering. Is it the church or the suburb? Churches in upper middle class suburbs will naturally be a higher quality.
Here goes:
1. We have some problems with terminology. You are a materialist and that implies that you believe that human beings do not have a spirit. They are instead a storm of chemical reactions - atoms and molecules alone and untranscended. Hence, I am not sure why or how you evoke a meaning behind the term "spiritual."
2. What you cite as "spiritual" is really a sense of aesthetics you feel about nature. You just feel that nature is very impressive and has been around a long time. But apparently aesthetics does not give you any sense about the meaning of life. The fact that it provides you with no meaning is consistent with materialism. But the fact that you have a sense of aesthetics is not consistent with materialism. This is rather an advanced function of the mind that does not sit comfortably in the evolutionary theory of human development. Aesthetics is used as an argument for the existence of god.
3. You failed to explain how my statement at the top of your post is invalid (or as you say BS). You did not provide a parsing of philosophical principle. You only provided your own personal behavior as a counterpoint.
4. When you make your jeering, sneering presentations on god who then are you sneering and Jeering at? The Witch in Hansel and Gretel?
443. Yes I have in the past. I also went to Unity Church occasionally in the past. It seemed the Church of the Outcasts and Woo Woo Practitioners after a time.
Dennis, "Unity Church" is a magnet for woo and all sorts of New Age twaddle. Despite the similar name, it's nothing like Unitarian-Universalists I've encountered.
Roman 1
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
To see the inner workings of any cell and not be in awe of the immense complexity of the design of all the organelles which work in unison to keep the cell "alive" is like walking on to a 747 and deny it had designers. In the video, the narrator proudly and dogmatically talks about being the result of some mutations of the genetic code, completely ignoring the DNA coding demands a programmer with a supernatural mind. He's not going cope with that even one protein has never and can never bring together the needed specific amino acids in their right sequence by chance. The scientific laws of randomization in mathematics states it's impossible. For the atheists who have blind faith in evolution (which doesn't even try to explain the origins of life) your purposeful ignorance is nothing to be proud of.
Much of the frustration, anger and disrespect which has been directed toward Dennis and his atheistic posts is attributable to human ego. Likewise, it seems to me that we could make the same observation about many atheists. We all seem to expect/want people to arrive at the same conclusions which we have arrived at. In short, we want other folks to validate our reasoning and perspective. Humans seem to have this need to evangelize or force others to accept our way of looking at things as the only legitimate interpretation of the evidence which confronts us. And, when anything or anyone challenges our conclusions, we get agitated - we even have the ability to dismiss/ignore it/them.
Many of us who interact in this forum share the experience of having been a part of Armstrongism, but we all sometimes forget that we are also individuals - that each one of us has had our own unique journey. The fact that each of us has navigated this journey in different ways and has made different choices when the path has diverged along the way should be a source of awe, wonder and respect.
I have not arrived at the same destination as Dennis. I am a theist and a Christian. Nevertheless, I respect his journey. I respect the work and suffering that it took to get him where he's at today, and I understand how one could reach the conclusions which he has reached.
I hope that we all understand that we can reach different destinations and different conclusions based on the same information/evidence and similar experiences. I hope that we can all acknowledge that the path we are all on will NOT necessarily lead us to some inevitable conclusion or ultimate truth - that there are possibilities other than the "solutions" which we've reached. In other words, what answers your questions and satisfies you, may not answer my questions or satisfy me!
I have thought for some time now that the quest itself is much more important than the answers/solutions we find. I too have felt the awe and wonder of beholding the Tetons from a distance and have experienced the joy of apple butter on my biscuit. And, although those experiences have elicited from me a different set of responses/conclusions from those reached by the person in the video, I can still respect the awe and wonder of his experience and what that did for him.
Having escaped the binary mindset of Armstrongism, we should all be very skeptical of the TRUTH vs ERROR model going forward. The "I'm right and you're wrong" thingy got us into a great deal of trouble in times past. Let's not make the same mistake going forward. It is good to entertain the possibility that some (or all) of the conclusions which we have reached may be wrong. The road goes ever on - the journey itself has value. And, finally, we should all understand that ignoring/rejecting/dismissing any evidence (including that supplied by faith) imperils the prospect of arriving at a sustainable conclusion.
There is a universalist group in Sedona. I've never bothered to go to it, but I am not hostile to it. As a whole, the ones I've known were thinking people and overall very pleasant people to be around. I just avoid groups that have to seek financial support I feel I can't afford to give and I'm not a free loader.
Good summary, Dennis. I took the liberty of copying it and sharing it on Facebook.
the freedom to be more spiritual than I did confined in WCG or Christianity itself. . This spirituality is not Bible based. It is not Buddhist based. It is not something that someone else delivers to me. It comes from the absolute awe of being alive. It comes from within and a gratitude for being conscious of this experience of being alive.
My Comment: I will ask this question. Once you discover you are alive what do you think is the best way to use what is referred to as life? I will assume you recognize this life is limited in years with the end in death. To me life has the primary purpose of continuing human beings and improving the value of human existence. I do not need to fill my mind with the awesomeness of universe to produce a family that learns to work together to in making our human existence a life filled with a love that works on solving the problems that currently creates destruction and corruption in the world today. Even the hope of an eternal life would be useless if humanity maintained the flaws that cause broken lives that affect millions of people today. Of course this is just my opinion.
Miller Jones February 25, 2020 at 8:29 AM
Fantastic commentary!
----------------------------------------------------
"I have thought for some time now that the quest itself is much more important than the answers/solutions we find."
Everyone's journey is for a different purpose. Its custom made just for us. It never ends until we die. Perhaps not even death puts a stop to it.
God is nothing man has ever thought of. We are not mean't to understand the concept of God (or higher being), for it would interfere with the purpose of the journey.
It is in this that negates the need to 'worship', 'grovel before', or even fear. This is the man made god that we see today, invented by the bronze-age man. This worlds version of "god" is NOT the true unknowable power behind all thing's great and small. It is a fraud.
I agree. They are two completely different mindsets
Give up on your need to analyze me. It's really none of your 'effin business and just as you have no need or guts to call me, so then?, I have no need to go in circles with you. The sneering jeering you hear is in your head and not the posting.
Anon February 25, 2020 at 8:18 AM
I understand where your coming from and propose that the god of the bible is not god, anymore than the god of the koran is god. Instead, "god" is unknowable to men. Study where your bible came from. Your working on the premise that it is the word of a higher power. It is not.
What did Einstein think about God?
https://hwarmstrong.com/blog/2020/02/24/religion-and-science/
https://hwarmstrong.com/blog/2020/02/25/science-and-religion-by-albert-einstein/
DD wrote: "I have no need to go in circles with you"
This is because you do not have a well thought out position. If you show up on this blog, I am going to analyze you if I feel like it. If you don't want to be analyzed, don't show up. My calling you or not calling you on the phone has no logical bearing on this - it is just a dodge on your part.
And your sneering and jeering is real. Anybody who watches this blog can attest to it and many people have written about it. You have an angry, highly emotional, inexplicable resentment of god - whatever you think god is.
959 asked "My Comment: I will ask this question. Once you discover you are alive what do you think is the best way to use what is referred to as life? I will assume you recognize this life is limited in years with the end in death. To me life has the primary purpose of continuing human beings and improving the value of human existence. I do not need to fill my mind with the awesomeness of universe to produce a family that learns to work together to in making our human existence a life filled with a love that works on solving the problems that currently creates destruction and corruption in the world today. "
The best way to use one's life is to choose the best way for themselves. My family is grown and on their own. We see each other when we can. I help those who come my way to help. I spent some time recently hunkered down with a homeless person who genuinely needed help. We talked and the best I could do was give her the tip money I had received that day at work. I suppose the look on her face was good enough for meaning that day.
I like filling my mind with the realities of paleontology, cosmology and geology. I like knowing how things work and where they actually come from. I can sit for hours changing lenses on my telescope for various kinds of things to behold.
The journey is more the point. I agree wholeheartedly. Maybe the destination is much more than one can imagine. Maybe it is eternal nothing. But now is now and perhaps we're the Universe observing itself. Very poetic at least. I enjoy the observing.
As Carl Sagan noted, "We're Johnny Come Latelies, Apes are our cousins ...and we have not been given the lead role in the Cosmic Drama" This seems so to me and it is awesome.
Miller Jones:
I appreciate your analysis of the divide here between believers and non-believers who contribute to this blog. But you missed the "elephant in the room." I have a friend who is an atheist and he presents his ideas in a rational and controlled manner. He does not sneer and jeer like Dennis Diehl does.
Atheism need not be presented this way. Diehl is the GTA of atheism. We are all supposed to be mesmerized by and enamored of his persuasive and unassailable salesmanship. My guess is that he acquired this approach at Ambassador College which had more than its share of self-absorbed sneerers and jeerers. Part of what motivates this is his desire to convert others to his own baseless viewpoint. Hence, the Saturday Night Live style sales presentations. And he doesn't like to be challenged - an attribute he picked up in the WCG ministry.
When Dennis sneers and jeers, do you really think it should go unanswered?
NEO wrote:
But apparently aesthetics does not give you any sense about the meaning of life. The fact that it provides you with no meaning is consistent with materialism. But the fact that you have a sense of aesthetics is not consistent with materialism. This is rather an advanced function of the mind that does not sit comfortably in the evolutionary theory of human development. Aesthetics is used as an argument for the existence of god.
Smug. Self-satisfied. Ignorant of his own ignorance. Apparently unaware that there are well-developed aesthetic systems and theories within atheist Marxist and Hegelian frameworks. Makes me wonder whether NEO is actually Bob Thiel trolling us.
ahhh yes, another lecture by the resident AA.
I have had several atheist friends over the years and not one of them has ever tried to convert me to atheism, but here on a blog about our religious past we have a die-hard AA trying to proselytize for atheism every chance he gets. Showing me old rocks and telescopes really doesn't help in your efforts. I believe that the earth is 3.45B years old and that there are a lot of stars in the sky at night, but that only re-enforces my belief in Creation. You have old rocks, but I have answered prayer, Trump lining up with certain biblical prophecies, the natural creation all around me, and our little Yorkie puppy. Just before bible study, our Yorkie would stand up on her back legs and extend her front legs out over a chair I had in my kitchen, then she would just stand there staring up for several minutes. She never exhibited this behavior ever before, and only did it just before our studies.
I ask you DD, what was our Yorkie looking at?
LXX
LXX noted "I ask you DD, what was our Yorkie looking at?"
Jesus LXX. Obviously Jesus.
DennisCDiehl said...
LXX noted "I ask you DD, what was our Yorkie looking at?"
Jesus LXX. Obviously Jesus.
February 25, 2020 at 1:41 PM
Scoffers gonna scoff.
DD you are so predictable, I knew you wouldn't have an answer but you did take the bait.
Don't be scared bro, even though it scares me.
LXX
NEO, Dennis is working hard to convince himself, not us!
Anonymous (12:28)
I notice that you have nothing substantive to say. Ad Homimem malarkey is hardly an argument.
Maybe you can tell me how "atheist Marxist and Hegelian frameworks" have anything to do with what I wrote and you quoted and why it is countervailing. Maybe you are really Daffy Duck trolling us.
NEO,
As someone who has appreciated the contributions and perspectives of both of you (Dennis and yourself), I think that you may have misconstrued the point that I was trying to make. If our purpose is to denigrate/discredit/attack each other's conclusions, then we are probably operating from the perspective of a bruised ego. God doesn't need defending and is immune to our criticisms. The point of these kinds of forums should be to share our different views, not to convince each other that our view is the only legitimate way to look at the subject being addressed.
A relative of mine found out about my religious beliefs from others. The next time he show me, it was obvious from his body language that he was mentally tortured. I give this as one example that Dennis is more than just about sharing different views.
Miller:
I believe that the fundamental goal of the blog (moderator correct me if I am wrong) is to reveal and discuss the truth about Armstrongism as a deterrent to its harmful effects on society. This goal can be owned by adherents to either Christianity or classical atheism. What I do not understand are the repeated attempts to co-opt the blog for missionary atheism. There are plenty of pro-Christianity and pro-Atheist views expressed on this blog. But when I see the large volume of comments from the atheist camp deriding Christianity, I am compelled to say something. It is more than just a bruised ego.
But let me say, I agree with you that a feature of this blog should be to "share our different views" as long as that is done within the bounds of respect.
Near Earth Object Wrote:
"Atheism need not be presented this way. Diehl is the GTA of atheism"
In honor of Dennis being the GTA of atheism, picture Diehl doing the old GTA routine hie did on Hee Haw back in the 1970s!
(Dennis dressed in open collar shirt, and tight pants, with white shoes , while perfoming!)
Sing Along to the Tune - PUT YOUR HAND IN THE HAND - 1970
https://youtu.be/SY-2XHqKGuw
Put your hand in the hand of the chimp
Who came from amino water
Put your hand in the hand of the chimp
Who came from the sea
Take a look at yourself
And you can look at primates differently...
Put your hand in the hand of the chimp
From your early primate family!
I had Bible dismay
Before I reached the age of seven
I'm down on the Bible and I have to disagree...
I hate religion and cant stand a single Pharisee!
So, Put your hand in the hand of the chimp
Who came from the sea
DD Said: As Carl Sagan noted, "We're Johnny Come Latelies, Apes are our cousins ...and we have not been given the lead role in the Cosmic Drama" This seems so to me and it is awesome.
My Comment: Its statements like this that cause me to question your view of human life. You reduce humanity to nothing more than an advanced form of animal life. This along with critical comments implying that all people who have be associated with WCOG are or have been brainless in their living experiences. That may be true of some but my personal experience is far different than that especially in the years before WCOG imploded. While there were problems, they were no more than the problems of the rest of the world at that time. If the news media has any degree of accuracy today’s world appears to have greater problems than the world back then. I am not critical of your beliefs, but just pointing out the way they can be received.
You guys are harsh. All I ever wish to do and ever did is share interesting things that expose the falsehoods of WCG explanations I fell for myself when younger. I get enthusiastic over the topics that interest me and that I did not address when younger and much more naive. I have no agenda here. Perhaps NEO, TONTO and LXX can post some of your own musings, lessons learned and affiliations to add more to mix here. Let's find out all about you for a change.
Careful Tonto. We had a nice chat, though you did most of the talking and now you too take a shot. I do know who you are remember.You wanted friends and that's no way to make or keep them. Evidently I went from "I like you and consider you a friend" as you said, to this again. Jeeeeeez ________ _________ from _________ attending________. Thanks a bunch
Actually it reads like too much wine.
DennisCDiehl said...
Perhaps NEO, TONTO and LXX can post some of your own musings, lessons learned and affiliations to add more to mix here. Let's find out all about you for a change.
Hi Dennis, thanks for the pleasant post. I've learned very rapidly that to try to share some of your "own musings" here rapidly results in vicious attacks and accusations on Banned. I've spoken to you on the phone and I bet you know who I am, thanks for not doxxing me.
My main issue in my replies to your posts is that I can't understand how a believer, if that applies, could let a monster like HWA/WCG turn you into a non-believer. I just saw the crescent moon here from my house on the east coast, which started the 12th month. Do you not believe that there is a moon, and that it is for a biblical calendar? Do you not want an immortal spirit body that can visit all of those stars and galaxies that you view through your very nice telescopes? I want an immortal spirit body, to go where no man has gone before. Humans can't endure space travel...the human body dissolves outside of gravity. We (humans) on this planet have been placed here by a superior ALIEN race, to develop into (shape-shift) spirit alien beings that CAN travel the immense distances of the universe FOREVER. I'm certain that you are familiar with 1 Cor 15, and John 3:6 in particular. When the proper time comes, we will be CHANGED (shape-shift) into our immortal spirit "astronaut" bodies, and this planet will leave its orbit once the Father and the New Jerusalem arrive and travel the universe FOREVER, just as Star Trek and Star Wars/NASA dream about but will never achieve. (Rev 21/22)
Now, are you going to throw that all away because of some old pervert from Pasadena? Please tell me that you are not.
PS: We are convinced that my Yorkie was looking at an angel that we as humans could not see. I get chills thinking about it. Laugh all you want, but there is a spirit realm.
LXX
'I do know who you are, remember. You wanted friends and that's no way to make of keep them.'
Is it just me, or do I smell blackmail or extortion? Tonto, you must now self censorship your comments on Banned, or Dennis will expose your identity and remove his very conditional friendship.
It was unwise for you to smoke your peace pipe with Dennis.
Folks, beware of the trap of chatting with Dennis.
Dennis-
Harsh?? Tongue in cheek , grab ass stuff!
I think you misunderstood our offline phone conversation. I do like you in many ways, but I indeed vehemently disagree with your overall conclusions about many topics. You are an evangelist for atheism, and I am an evangelist for the Bible. In this world, they are not natural symbiotic creatures.
Sardonic Wit Dennis. Parody. Banter. We did share confidential and personal conversation, and I would never violate that personal privileged information, I assure you. However, the atheism debate is "open domain" and my little ditty can be considered "campaign ridicule" and not necessarily a personal attack. Familiar people can joke on, and have general horseplay or foolery. I sense the you are a bit too sensitive about this BANNED thing, which is , ultimately all just dust in the wind.
PS- I sensed a veiled threat in your response. Of course I want friends, who doesn't?? However, even friends do not get immunity from incorrect ideas , or get a pass.. Generals on both sides of the Civll War, were friends, and even had admiration for each other, but in the end, were mortal enemies. You want "kid gloves" treatment in the area of eternal destiny??
Finding out more about me , as you suggested, is meaningless. You know who I am , and what does that matter? It certainly does not add any weight to anything I say here, as Im sure you would attest to. In the end, the tall trees catch the wind, and leadership or outspokenness is often a lonely perch. I suggest that we both get used to that.
As a child of an alcoholic, who suffered much from that up bringing, and as one who has never drank, with the exception of Passover, I can say your comment about "it reads like too much wine." could be taken by me with great offense. But it doesn't Dennis, mainly because big boys and girls can play a little rough. All is fair in love and war Dennis, so touche, you got one in on me too, and I aint crying about it.
I dont bitch about "he who lives by the sword , dies by the sword" . There, is that a foundation for "learning about me"??
PS-
I think we both need a massage!
When I deconverted, my mom asked for an explanation. When I answered her questions she got defensive and upset, you know, for giving her what she asked for. I tried to sum up the dozens of lines of reasoning that all pointed to a god who in all probability does not exist. I think what I ended up saying was that my personal experience is that I've never had any experiences that I could disambiguate from random chance—from what would have happened anyway under purely naturalistic scenarios. Maybe I could have started counting the hits if I had ever had any, but I can honestly say I never did.
She went on to talk about her own personal experiences, and how these were the bona fides that our religion was true, and she reprimanded me for more or less trying to take those away from her. I wasn't, but I can understand why she felt that way. Although I might be willing to cut her a little more slack if she hadn't been the one demanding it of me. It's not a conversation I felt the need to have with her, personally, and I just did it to oblige.
I think one of the main differences between us is that she's a lot more credulous than I am. I don't think she's ever wondered if any of her personal experiences could have been anything other than direct intervention by her god in the natural order, changing what would have otherwise happened. I don't think she's ever wondered whether an event was just random chance or whether it was a miracle. If it *might* be a miracle, then it IS one! Case closed. And once the moment has passed, she enters it into the permanent record as a miraculous event, never to be mulled over and second-guessed.
My brain has never worked that way. Even in the throes of my COG indoctrination, I always wondered if god was up there wondering why I was so bad at guessing which events were random chance and which ones were the result of his suspension of the natural order.
The bottom line, of course, was that her personal experiences were the ones that counted, I was "throwing the baby out with the bathwater," and that my personal experiences shouldn't count, not even for me. Her personal experiences should be good enough for both of us. Yep. "How dare you try to take my personal experiences away from me, now here, let me try to take your personal experiences away from you!"
This is how your friends and family members are hypocritical cheaters when they ask for an explanation. I love my mom, but she pisses me off sometimes.
And a lot of people around here are credulous, just like my mom. You don't have anything to back up your opinion except for that which is indistinguishable from random chance, and you're assigning it to the supernatural for no reason other than bias. That doesn't automatically make you a bad person or anything. You were trained to make systematic errors, just like I was, and just like she was before me. But when you savage Dennis just because you never learned how to think straight, now you're venturing into bad person territory.
Tonto said...
Dennis-
Harsh?? Tongue in cheek , grab ass stuff!
I think you misunderstood our offline phone conversation. I do like you in many ways, but I indeed vehemently disagree with your overall conclusions about many topics. You are an evangelist for atheism, and I am an evangelist for the Bible. In this world, they are not natural symbiotic creatures.
Wow, I thought my observations were unique but Tonto proved that position wrong.
As a professional educator with over 30 years of experience in my field, I can usually identify toxic, poisonous people and environments. "Banned" is one of those environments.
Working with people (humans) over the years has led me to be able to access certain dangerous and negative traits, that left non-confronted or corrected could lead to the deaths of innocent people.
And I thought that WCG services were harmful. I doubt I'll be playing in this sand-box any longer. It's not spiritually healthy.
Regards,
LXX
Byker Bob,
Where are you? Do you have any words of wisdom to soothe these troubled waters?
Tonto, you remind me of Connie.
The sing along stuff looks quite familiar.
So, are we saying "Familiarity breeds contempt."?
I've watched sincere and well intentioned talks of forum or blog get togethers several times before disintegrate into contempt and confusion. In certain ways, it is reminiscent of meeting one's favorite celebrities, only to find that you liked the image they project, but not the real them. It has also always seemed to me that when one gets together with fellow ex-church members, conversations ended up being dominated by past experiences in the church. I really prefer a greater richness in topics and depth of discussion, which is why I've generally looked elsewhere for friends.
Sometimes, what you don't know about others ends up being a merciful thing.
BB
Lonnie, I think we have a collection of strong minded individuals here, all of whom have found new personal philosophies and agendas to replace the failed Armstrongism in their lives and we all tend to want to share them. Some may have hopes of acceptance of their new ways and or validation. We all seem to want to know if we have found that universal key, and it helps to know if what we have found will resonate with others. If we meet resistance, what started out with good intentions can sometimes produces hurt first, and then anger.
One would hope, and I know I'm not the best person to be making this statement, (but I know it's true) that we would take the high road in treating our opponents ethically and compassionately, and giving them the freedom to disagree with us. Rejecting our ideas is not rejecting us personally, although having said that, compatibility is frequently the key to a viable friendship. Adversarial friendships are possible, but rare.
People will write things and post them that they may not say to others in person. I don't believe that a phone conversation would change anyone's mind about their own chosen paths and paradigms. Following a phone call, an individual will most likely continue to post the same believed opinions they had expressed previously here on the board. The phone calls and visits I've been involved with in the past have been with people I knew from other sites, past friends and roommates, and folks I had never met previously but knew instinctively that I could trust from the tones of their posts. None of them were mean-spirited or narcissists.
It's probably time to mellow out, take a deep breath, and for all of us here to allow one another to be ourselves. Twenty years from now, if we can even remember what we post each day, the stuff isn't going to seem all that important. Friends we make might be.
BB
Who here thinks we are going to make it to Mars in 10 years?
Oh Please LXX don't be overly dramatic on your skills to "read" people "as an educator."
You and I both know that the KEY to to save people from themselves is PROCEDURE and PROTOCOL, not supposed mind readers.
I respect your career in teaching protocol, by the way.
Nck
Hello Mason.
It is through Armstrongism that I did not consider Elon Musk a whack job when I stumbled upon his ideas.
It is also through my experience with Armstrongism that I would never consider investing a Penny in his companies.
Mr Market has proven me dead wrong so far. It seems the unseen hand has agreed that man's DNA will populate the stars.
Nck
I am not certain who posted the opening post (new here) but it's stated above, "In spite of the way some think they can define atheism, it is not a religion and takes no faith to practice it."
I cannot agree with that. It actually takes much more faith to believe in an atheistic viewpoint. A believer's faith is backed up by insurmountable proof about us. Leaves me scratching my head.
BB said “Sometimes, what you don't know about others ends up being a merciful thing.”
Indeed as is the old saying, “Rejection is God’s protection.”
1056. Faith in that context is defined in the Biblical sense of HEB 11:1. That being belief and hope in that for which there is no direct evidence. There is abundant evidence taking no faith for the processes and factors of the evolution of all things
Dennis asks that readers give up on analysing him since it's non of their effin business.
Analysing others is a right! It needs to be done for ones self protection. Widows who failed to do this had their homes stolen by the Pharisees. It can even lead to having ones crown stolen. Dave Pack comes to mind, but that's another story.
Christ said 'beware of the Pharisees,' listing their moral faults. He must have observed and thought long to come up with His accurate assessment.
Sun Tzu in his famous The Art of War, teaches to know ones enemies. And everyone who has any degree of success in life has them, whether they realise it or not. Enemies are always in the shadows observing potential victims. Unfortunately, that's the way it is in Satan world.
Poor Dennis. He's still in love with his former ivory tower minister perks, such as being regarded as a junior god, and being basically exempt from moral evaluation. He comes to Banned expecting the readers to grant him these perks.
Dennis, you are no longer one of the big people. You are now a commoner, just like the rest of us.
Bullshit Dennis, there is abundant evidence that what exists, exists. But there is no evidence of how it came into existence. Evolution is just as faith based as a Creator!
Anonymous (6:58):
You have it exactly right. Atheists confidently believe that God did not create the universe. And they will typically refer to some favorite theory in a large body of speculation made by various cosmologists to support this belief. They will characterize their favorite theory as being credible and treat it as factual because it comes from the great minds of great scientists. But these scientists will themselves identify their concepts as unproven speculation - what could be called metascience (this is a point at which atheism and science clearly part ways). Hence, this leaves atheists in a lurch. They believe devoutly in something for which there is no evidence and then atheism assumes some of the attributes of religion.
Then the atheists will get fancy and contend that they can't prove there is no such thing as a unicorn but we all know there is not. That is yet another tour through illogic.
Reading everyone's comments and seeing the emotions, I feel everyone has a point. I don't know Dennis personally,but from his comments he seemed to be the very few ministers who actually cared for the underdog. Did ministers live in a Ivory tower yes SOME did who took advantage of their members. Even though I'm in my thirties I have many stories. One quick story I will share is a minister in SC (not Dennis) who married my parents. I would say did not live in a Ivory tower, but actually lived very poorly because he sent a lot of his check back to HQ. Religion is a dangerous thing. Some people will do anything in the name of GOD and some people will do anything in the name of Science. One thing I think we can agree on whether Atheist, Agnostics, or Christians is that Armstrongism is the exact opposite of the Man Jesus said to live. It is a beautiful story and do hope it is true. A man who stood up for the underdogs and shamed the religious leaders of His day. So I don't necessarily agree with all Dennis says, but I've learned not only is it good to question but also listen to those we may not see eye to eye with.
Thanks, Byker Bob, for your contribution - I hope everyone will take your advice. Having raised the issue with Dennis before and based on his reaction, I don't think that it is his intention to be condescending or threatening. Likewise, I perceive NEO and Tonto to be open-minded folks who aren't opposed to hearing about views different from their own. I know that from my own personal experience that I have reacted to snide and hurtful comments in kind and have regretted doing so in hindsight.
We have all traveled a long way (philosophically/intellectually/emotionally/spiritually) from the days of our affiliation with the now defunct Worldwide Church of God, but we have arrived at different destinations. Frankly, I think that it's a miracle that some of us (BB, NEO, Tonto, myself and others) have managed to maintain our faith in God and Christ when I consider our history. There are other folks who comment here who have accepted the fact that Herbert and Garner Ted were morally unfit to lead any church and were wrong about some of their teachings, but who are still devoted to their "core" doctrines. There are still others (Dennis, Allen, Gerald, etc.) who are now atheists or agnostics (depending on how those terms are defined).
At any rate, we share the fact that our paths came together once upon a time in Armstrongism. As NEO pointed out, that is the purpose of this blog. We may not like it. We may not wish to acknowledge it, but that shared experience has made a major contribution to where we are all at today. Some of us remain fundamentalists, some of us are deists or more liberal Christians, some of us have held onto elements of Armstrongism and some of us are atheists/agnostics now. In other words, like it or not, atheism is one of the many products of Armstrongism. And, as such, it has to be discussed on this forum.
The free exchange of ideas stimulates thought. The expression of those ideas may cause some of us to modify our own notions, adopt some of our opponents notions or strengthen our convictions. That is for each of us to decide. However, when anyone attempts to evangelize or impose their convictions on others, they should expect a fiery response (that's human nature). Respecting each others journey is essential to a civil discussion.
I see problems with both creation by God and creation by evolution.
How do you get something out of nothing?
The origin of everything is a mystery. Whatever you believe, you are believing that something - God or the universe suddenly existed.
I am glad we exist, even if I don't know why and how.
TLA, God didn't create everything from nothing. He created it from Himself. That's why He's omnipresent. Even the heaviest, most solid piece of matter is mostly space, and everything in the universe is vibrating! Evolution is only possible because everything in the universe is "talking to" everything else. This is why there are parallel, symbiotic evolutions. God is hiding in plain sight, and we are part of Him!
BB
Miller (9:28):
Thanks for a solid, incisive analysis. I, for one, can take wisdom from it. I forgot that Dennis' atheism is his belief and I should respect it like I do the beliefs of Muslim friends and Jewish friends and Buddhist friends. If a Muslim friend joined this blog and started ragging on Christianity, I would probably express a counterpoint. But I would do it within the bounds of respect. Dennis deserves no less.
8:23
No NEO.
It is not a belief. And stop misrepresenting atheists, science and morality.
The point of departure, the route to conclusions is totally different. It's not a belief.
Nck
So Tonto has a phone chat with Dennis, then Dennis in his 4.58 PM comment, threaten to expose Tonto unless he 'behaves.' Isn't this what all members experience in the ACOGs if they question their church's dogma. The ministers traitorously use the information that was confided to them in good faith, as a weapon to intimidate them into silence.
This is another example that Dennis is still playing minister, and using the dirty tricks that all ministers use.
Once a minister, always a minister.
NCK (11:16):
I don't know how you define the term "belief" in your response. My guess is that you load it with theological implications which is fine for some contexts. Here I mean it in the unadorned sense that atheism is simply something that people believe. No other connotations are implied.
N.E.O. means atheism "in the unadorned sense that atheism is simply something that people believe."
Thanks for giving your definition. Here is mine: "Atheism is the absence of belief in god." There is a subtle difference. Speaking in ideal terms, I do not have faith in either proposition--god or not-god. It's an open question. That is to say I am a theoretical agnostic.
Practically speaking, my default assumption is that it is safe to proceed as if there is no god. Such an assumption, to me at any rate, does not qualify as a belief. Maybe NCK will comment to clarify the definition he had in mind.
New to this thread, but will throw in a couple of pithy cents:
Agnosticism implies atheism.
I am agnostic in that I acknowledge I do not know.
I am atheistic in that I acknowledge I do not believe.
Furthermore, to dogmatically believe that about which you have no knowledge, well folks, that is stupidity.
I have little time and other priorities to really elaborate.
Atheism has many definitions but ALL definitions include the ABSENCE OF BELIEF in one or more or any deity.
Personally I am undecided as in the new commenters definition. To be agnostic in my opinion means to acknowledge to not know about, or to acknowledge, the working presence of one or more deities in one's personal life and the universe in general.
So even if a deity is working day and night to get one to believe in him or keep the universe rolling, an atheist does NOT believe that.
Nck
I should have gone on to admit that my default assumption makes me a practicing atheist, whatever my theoretical stance may be. This is not too dissimilar to some Jews I know who have lost faith in the existence of G-d but who remain observant Jews. Behavior trumps belief. In contrast, for many Christians, belief trumps behavior. They claim with a straight face to qualify as Christians because they "truly believe," even though their behavior belies the label.
I am a panentheist. I believe that God made everything from elements of Himself, and is in everything we see, hear, touch, taste, and smell. Therefore, there is no such thing as an atheist. It is a totally artificial construct, because if you believe you exist, and everything around you also exists and is real, then you actually believe in God.
BB
You're not bad at artificial constructs yourself with that BB
What did the famous philosopher say Byker Bob- I think therefore I am?
Byker Bob, your idea sounds the same as what Orthodox Jews term "immanence." God permeates the universe and sustains it. One rabbi explained that the command "Let there be light" was not an instantaneous one-time act of creation. It is still going on, and has been continuously since "in the beginning." If he ever stopped willing light into existence, the universe would wink out instantly.
Thing about this idea is, it can be seen as compatible with modern physics. Scientists say that quasi-particles continuously pop into existence and out again from what they call "the vacuum." The vacuum cannot be the same as nothing; there has to be a field--maybe comparable to a magnetic field or an electric field or something. I don't understand it, really, so I am probably explaining it wrong. If it is so, we are unable to detect this field because our gauges are set to "feel" it as zero, somewhat like we feel atmospheric pressure as zero, even as it permeates our being at about 14-15 pounds per square inch.
Somehow this hypothetical field roils with these perturbations on a submicroscopic scale. It could be that some such perturbations are not infinitesimal but cosmic, and we live in one. Scientists figure the process is impersonal and unpredictable, sort of the opposite of radioactive decay.
However If the field has a consciousness, it could have roiled us into being on purpose rather than spontaneously and randomly in the grand upheaval we refer to as the Big Bang. In fact, maybe it erupts in such bangs repeatedly to give rise to the multiverse. I don't have any faith in the idea, but it certainly is appealing to suppose a coherent field permeates and sustains the universe from the tiniest scale to the vastest one. If such a field with a conscious will actually exists, it fills the role human are reaching toward when they grapple with the idea of god by telling their various creation stories and stories about imperceptible beings that guide and sustain our daily lives.
1:08
What I do believe is that BB might qualify as a Hindu. I agree that the relative space between the particles in human atoms is comparatively the same as the space in the universe between heavenly bodies and constellation. I might investigate further to see if the Universe has a "mind".
AI and quantum computing is struggling with those concepts and questions like if robots might develop "feelings", or consciencenous beyond their programming. Like "why am I producing this car in China, I wanna travel and meet and greet other robots in other fields." I'll make a plane and go someplace........... and perhaps wipe out those fleshy creatures trying to stop me......... "me"? , I like the new "me".
Nck
Retired Prof is the "better me" in a quantum universe.
But we are not the same.
Nck
Retired Prof
I'm disappointed to hear that you are an atheist after having attended Ambassador college.
I've read that it was highly flawed, but you were still exposed to ideas, many of which can be verified by the bible. You and other former AC students who have turned to atheism, remind me of the Godfather 3 movie, where the priest tells mobster Corleone that some churchmen are like a pebble in a pond. They are surrounded by the water, symbolising Christ, but it doesn't penetrate.
Nck (12:13)
Semantics. But I think that most people would disagree with your idea that atheism is only an absence of belief. Atheism is itself a belief. It is the alternative belief to theism.
If you had a tribal person from a remote wilderness area of Siberia who had never even thought of god, whose mind was completely vacant regarding the topic of god, who had never even considered the question of god, that would be an absence of belief in god. (Interestingly, you don't really find people like this. All people, if I may, believe in some kind of transcendent force.) But it does not mean that this person who has never thought about god is an atheist. He would have to engage in some philosophical reflection to acquire the belief that there is or isn't a god.
You are conflating two different definitions of the term "belief". They are:
1) a religious conviction
2) acceptance of an idea as true
My usage in the post I wrote earlier was confined to the second sense in this case. After all this verbosity, that's all I am saying.
Interesting post Tonto. Are you requiring friends here because of burnt bridges elsewhere?
Correct Ronco they are the same lady.
Anon Feb. 28 at 4:54 AM is disappointed in my worldview. He says: "You and other former AC students who have turned to atheism, remind me of the Godfather 3 movie, where the priest tells mobster Corleone that some churchmen are like a pebble in a pond. They are surrounded by the water, symbolising Christ, but it doesn't penetrate."
Interesting metaphor. If the water has turds swirling around in it, you can bet it is tainted. Best plan is to avoid absorbing it. Corleone would have been better off if his family's pond water had not penetrated.
NEO
Thanks for the explanation. I will study it. The difference it seems lies in the "active" part. "Active rejection" or "active acceptance". Kinda same difference between "murder" and "manslaughter" if you will.
Nck
Retired Prof
Your 11.39 AM reply did a straw man argument on me. As a former English teacher, you should know better.
BB - do you believe the universe we live in was created 14 billion years ago?
If yes, what do you think God has been doing for 14 billion years?
Taking multi billion year power naps?
Or do you think God does not experience time the way we do?
Anonymous said...
Interesting post Tonto. Are you requiring friends here because of burnt bridges elsewhere?
February 28, 2020 at 7:38 AM
MY RESPONSE:
Actually, I think that Diehl misunderstood our conversation. I mentioned that at times I face loneliness. I actually have many associations, and many friends and acquaintances, probably much more than most. However, I think all of us feel a degree of loneliness at times, or that we understand that we wear masks or put on pretenses to maintain our sociology, image , status or the like.
I have an excellent spouse and a great marriage. Our children are great too. They are all my friends in a very special way. Perhaps this is the greatest gifts one can have, certainly that is what Ecclesiastes relates.
With time, and over the decades, one begins to see a trail of people who have come into your life and exited your life, never to be seen from or heard from again. It can be from your work career, or even church community. It occurs when you move as well. Out of sight , out of mind, and it can lead to feelings of "what does it all mean" in regards to friendships, connectedness and sociology. This is the loneliness I feel, and I do believe that every person reading this, in honesty, would agree with me.
TLA, I believe that God has been maintaining His creation for the last 14 billion years, and making observations and collecting data. He is most likely monitoring His human children, and rendering assistance when this conforms to His will. Beyond that, we could speculate, but it is difficult to know the specifics. Considering what is known about the sheer number of solar systems, and galaxies, it is likely that somewhere in space there are planets with life and conditions similar to Earth.
Have you been keeping up with the latest information on Betelgeuse? There are some very unusual events which are ongoing, but we are literally getting the "latest" news approximately 724 years late. For all we know, Betelgeuse could already have gone supernova, but we will not know this until sometime within the next 724 years because it is 724 light years away. The shape changes which we are just now seeing with our high powered telescopes actually occurred in the late 1200s to early 1300s.
I also believe that God is not bound by the time-space continuum, except in the cases that His promises relate to time as experienced on planet Earth, and possibly other inhabited planets with slightly different cycles and constants in other parts of the universe. Einstein, or those from whom he plagiarized, got many things about relativity right. I've been applying his theory of relativity to creation week for decades now.
BB
I believe that God spent the past 14 years designing all the new life forms on this planet. A better question is what have the angels being doing with themselves the past 14 billion years. And why can human beings that lived under a hundred years qualify to rule 14 billion year old angels?
An Italian book had the formula E = mc2 before Einstein came up with his theory of relativity. It's unknown whether Einstein read that equation. Einstein might have simply worked backward on seeing that equation. Only God knows.
I think that scripture might be taken out of context. I think it's the fallen Angels which is said they are reserved for day of judgment.
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