When Ministers Disappear…
It has been a fact of life for nearly 2,000 years in God’s Church: Members periodically choose to leave, or must be removed from, the Body of Christ. Many factors can be involved, but the painful result is the same: They are gone.
At the emotional level, this can be a source of considerable sorrow for those close to such a person. On the spiritual level, it becomes a test for brethren: Will we love Jesus Christ more than any human being, no matter what was our relationship with him or her? Will we choose to follow a human being out of God’s Church, Work and Way—or will we continue to follow Christ? Our remaining His disciple (student) turns on whether we pass this “exam”: “There went great multitudes with Him: and He turned, and said unto them, If any man come to Me, and hate [love less by comparison] not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple” (Luke 14:25-26). This obviously includes friends.
But sometimes the member who leaves is also a minister. Those in his pastorate are accustomed to his leadership—his style of counseling, his presence in front of the congregation at services, his messages, his personality. He has been, at least outwardly, a local representative of God’s government. Some leave after a relatively short time, while others may have been in the Church or the ministry for decades.
This particular loss can be a greater trauma for God’s people, described by Him as sheep who follow shepherds (Heb. 13:20). They are also gone, but sometimes with greater aftermath…
In some cases, it becomes clear that a man can no longer serve in the ministry, but that he can and should continue in the Church as a lay member in good standing.
At other times, a man may be removed both from the ministry (and if an employee, terminated) and disfellowshipped, but he then eventually returns as a lay member after some period of time.
In a third and rare scenario, a man may be removed from the ministry as well as membership (disfellowshipped) for some period of time, but can be reinstated both as a lay member and eventually as a minister.
So it is important not to jump to conclusions when you learn that a man who once served in the ministry is no longer in that role. His actions and attitude, and the gathering of additional facts and background, make all the difference in what his future holds.
However, sometimes a man exits both the ministry and Church at the same time, and in a hostile manner.
This brings an additional level of difficulty to the test: The one who may have taught you and exhorted you to be faithful and steadfast on the path to the kingdom of God has now forgotten to apply his own counsel, and no longer practices what he has preached. And he may be actively contradicting Scripture, Headquarters and his own previous sound counsel through divisive, unauthorized contact with members.
At this point, Christ has another term to describe him: A wolf (Matt. 7:15; John 10:12)!
“Grievous Wolves”
At this point, an excerpt from a section in Mr. Pack’s Splinter Explanation Packet book Should Accusers Be Answered?titled “Beware of ‘Grievous Wolves!’” adds perspective:
“The book of Acts records an admonition—and sobering warning—that the apostle Paul gave to the elders at Ephesus—one that applies in all eras of God’s Church: ‘Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He has purchased with His own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also OF YOUR OWN SELVES shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears’ (Acts 20:28-31).
“Grasp what Paul was saying. He could foresee that vicious men, whom he labels ‘wolves,’ would eventually ‘enter in’ the congregation with the sole purpose of spiritually tearing God’s sheep to pieces—‘not sparing’ them. Even more remarkably, he knew that some of the very men standing before him would turn away from the truth, and also attempt to divide the Church and ‘draw away’ members. How many still believe such basic, impossible-to-misunderstand warnings?
“Paul then reminded the men that he had warned them for a full three years about the dangers that lie ahead. He did this because he understood the seductive power of the devil—his ability to ensnare human beings, and then employ them toward his own ends. Paul wrote this to Timothy: ‘In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the SNARE of the devil, who are taken captive by him at [Greek: “to do”] his will’ (II Tim. 2:25-26).
“Paul may have been more right than he knew, as two men close to him—Clement and Linus—eventually became leaders of the counterfeit Church at Rome!
“As has occurred time and again through the ages, wolves have arisen among God’s people—from among the elders, the ordained ministry!—intent on drawing away brethren after themselves.
“Make no mistake: Christ’s ministers are duty bound to protect His flock from damage at the hand of thieves and destroyers: ‘The thief comes not, but for to STEAL, and to KILL, and to DESTROY: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.’ Christ calls a minister who does not defend the flock ‘a hireling… [who] sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep, and flees: and the wolf catches them, and scatters the sheep. The hireling flees, because he is a hireling, and cares not for the sheep’ (John 10:10-13).”
“In any trial, God’s people must listen for the voice of TRUTH—Christ’s voice (John 10:3-5; 18:37).”
Discern the Spirit Behind the Man
“We must never forget that God works through flesh—and so does Satan! It is the responsibility of all Christians to distinguish those God is using from others who show themselves to be agents of a different god (II Cor. 4:4). Paul spent all of II Corinthians 11 explaining how to discern one from the other.
“We serve a frank—a sometimes painfully blunt—God. We must never be afraid to see men for what they are. Recall the way Scripture describes false leaders:
· ‘Serpents…a generation of vipers’ (Matt. 23:33)
· ‘Foxes in the desert’ (Ezek. 13:4)
· ‘Men of corrupt minds…reprobate [void of judgment]’ (II Tim. 3:8)
· ‘Dogs’ and “evil workers’ (Phil. 3:2)
· ‘Whited sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness’ (Matt. 23:27)
· ‘Blind guides’ (vs. 24)
The Way of the Wolf
Looking at the animal to which God specifically compares false ministers who attack the flock is instructive.
Wolves inflict most wounds on their prey by biting, taking advantage of their sharp teeth and strong jaws.
In the case of “grievous [human] wolves,” the primary weapon is also the mouth—but in this case, it is used to spew harmful words. Recall Paul’s warning to those at Ephesus. He knew that predators would get into the Church, intent on causing damage, and that some were standing right in front of him. He warned that such words are “perverse.” The Greek word used here, along with its root words, illustrates a “twisting,” “corrupting,” “distorting,” “misinterpreting,” “reversing” and “turning around” of things that are true—whether true doctrines or the truth of events, factual accounts, attitudes and fruits. This latter meaning is a big one because so often these wolves turn around facts by claiming that it is Headquarters that has turned them around—even when many witnesses were involved.
This is the pattern of a wolf in the Church: He uses perverse words to sow division, cause discord, drop innuendo, plant troubling suggestions, instill doubt, and generally attempt to take members—YOU!—off the path toward salvation.
Another characteristic of wolves is that they prefer to attack in groups. (The “lone wolf” is the exception rather than the rule.) You may have seen film footage of three or four wolves taking turns biting an animal such as a moose, sometimes following and harassing their prey for miles, until the soft tissue trauma and blood loss take their inevitable toll and the larger animal falls to the ground.
For an ex-minister that has now become a predator, this group dynamic involves finding others of like mind—or, if there are none, still suggesting that there is a “larger movement” afoot. (And even lone wolves can come together if there is a common purpose.) You may hear statements like “Others are concerned…I am hearing from other people…there is trouble in the field.” As the saying goes,
“Misery loves company,” even if that company is imaginary. This has been happening for decades—in fact 2,000 years.
Recent Departures
Three “cases in point” are particularly instructive. They are included to help provide glimpses of how various men’s actions might play out. They are but a tiny sampling of all the things that can happen.
It is generally known that a younger local elder (having been previously demoted to this rank) at Headquarters recently left the Church. He came to believe that he was above counsel and correction, basically melting down when he faced setbacks and reversals and things did not go his way.
It turns out there was another man here, quite a bit older and longer in the Church, who played a chief role in destroying this man. Due to his lack of credibility and basic human warmth, the latter is not a man who poses much threat in terms of drawing followers after him. But in this age, it seems that virtually anyone can mislead at least a few people into giving up their crown—and this man has certainly tried to do that, targeting members, particularly certain women, with phone calls full of “feigned words” (II Pet. 2:3).
This same man was patiently worked with at Headquarters over a long period of time on a number of spiritual issues. Verses such as “he that covers a transgression seeks love” (Prov. 17:9) applied, so long as this man was willing to move forward.
But in the end this man also could not handle correction or reversals. Having also been demoted, then removed from the ministry, he was given the opportunity to continue as a lay member, upon repentance and with certain conditions being met. But he did not meet these requirements, and was accordingly removed from membership entirely, some days before the Feast of Tabernacles. (He later claimed to “resign” his membership. His claim is false—he had already been removed about 10 days earlier.)
The man had very recently acknowledged to a group of seven ministers that he was in the snare of the devil (II Tim. 2:26). He later voiced that he “went to a dark place,” spiritually, and “may have gone too far”—which, as he clarified for the ministers present, meant committing the unpardonable sin. Yet he has now “reconsidered,” and believes that the Church’s leadership does not measure up to his standards of righteousness!
Stunningly, he has openly stated (to lay members whom he contacted after his departure in an attempt to win their sympathy and turn them against Headquarters) that he had proven The Restored Church of God is the true Church, and that all other groups are “compromising.”
Despite this, he has chosen to stay home (forsaking assembly—Heb. 10:25), and attack the group and the leader who taught him what should not be compromised! Incredible! This irrational thinking is telling evidence, a result of being cut off from the Spirit of a sound mind (II Tim. 1:7).
Shortly after this, a third man, this time in the field, also had to be removed and disfellowshipped. In his case, profound self-righteousness and arrogance had become a pattern, to the point where he eventually stated he had never committed an error in judgment during his entire ministry! Having a fantastically elevated view of himself, he was routinely insubordinate and repeatedly spoke against God’s Headquarters in conversations with certain lay members. This, coupled with a severely unbalanced mindset in nearly every area of life—again, evidencing extreme lack of sound mind—were the fruits by which he became known. Finally, he displayed open disrespect and outright scorn toward Mr. Pack in a dinner during the Feast—all of this witnessed by three other ministers, their wives and Mrs. Pack.
There will be more ministerial losses before the end of the age—this is one of the tests God’s people must expect. Whenever they come—sooner or later—you must pass the test.
Speaking Against Government—in a Different Light
In most cases, a minister who is turning against the Church begins to speak critically of its human leadership.
It seems that many brethren do not understand the seriousness of criticism toward Headquarters. They do not equate it with criticism of Jesus Christ as Head of the Church, and as a result they are most often willing to hear it and say nothing. They do not bring it to the attention of the ministry or Headquarters, forgetting a clear instruction in Leviticus 5:1: “If a soul sin [this can be many things], and hear the voice of swearing [or similar things], and is a witness, whether he has seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity.”
The goal is not to create a fear-engendering “informant system” within the Church, which would quench the joy that is to characterize every Christian (Gal. 5:22). But words that are clearly divisive and destructive cannot be tolerated!
At this point, an account from the New Testament enters the discussion. Paul wrote to Timothy that he had delivered two members, Hymenaeus and Alexander, to Satan for a purpose—so they would “learn not to blaspheme” (I Tim. 1:20).
Consider: to blaspheme means to “speak evil of.” How likely was it that these two members had walked through the congregation directly cursing God, or blatantly speaking evil against Him? Who has ever even heard of such a thing?
So it is highly unlikely this is what they were doing. It is likely that these two were speaking evil against God’s government—the human instruments through whom He works. In the case of Hymenaeus, we learn in II Timothy that he also spread the heresy that there is no coming resurrection of the dead (2:17-18).
Peter describes such critics as the “unjust” who do not fear to criticize those in authority: “…chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; and shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time” (II Pet. 2:9-13).
“Natural brute beasts” can be translated “carnal, irrational animals.” Let that SINK IN!—God describes certain people as operating at a subhuman level—ANIMALS!
How Much Should Be Said?
Typically, when a minister is removed, the related developments and decisions do not need to be broadcast around the world by Headquarters, but rather kept on a local basis where there is a need to know.
At some point, you may notice that a man is simply no longer pictured in the Manpower Brochure, or does not appear in the annual Behind the Work video. This was a regular occurrence in the Worldwide Church of God, and will occasionally happen in this age.
If one becomes spiritually murderous, divisive and dives headlong into devilish conduct, such would be marked and disfellowshipped. But many are content to simply disappear, move on to another “career phase,” and merge back into the world and its covetous pursuits.
But there is another reason to keep “announcements” minimal—and it is big: What if the man repents, comes back into membership, and even the ministry? In this case, keeping a lower profile for the event would best serve the man, particularly if he is not a threat to the Church.
Brethren, take note: Those who want to “know more” about a particular man leaving, after hearing either a local or broader announcement, are usually sending the message that they simply do not trust Christ’s leadership of the Church. This amounts to spending time looking sideways or backward, and dwelling on the negative, rather than moving forward and focusing on the positive, as Paul instructed the Philippians: “Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things” (4:8).
Naturally, we would rather focus on, for example, growth, healings, the Work advancing and new men being ordained. For example, we have added 13 new ministers in the past ten months. One man has been reinstated into the ministry, with others likely to follow. (Keep watching for more of both.)
Brethren, when a minister “disappears,” there are ways to avoid generating unnecessary confusion, of which God is not the author. This is accomplished by following these general rules:
1) Resist the urge to “fish” for information either from ministers or lay members, regarding what has happened to this man. In other words, resist the tendency to have itching ears (II Tim. 3:4). Try to imagine if the entire Church always needed to “know more” about such men. The Work would have to almost stop until the requisite answers had been distributed to thousands of people. And what if halfway through the process, more facts came out, or the situation changed in some way? Do we start over with clarification for the first half to avoid confusion with what the second half is hearing? You see the point.
2) If you receive an email, phone call, letter or social network contact from the terminated minister, do not respond. EVER! If his name appears on your phone’s caller ID, do not pick up. You are so commanded by God, not Headquarters (Rom. 16:17; II Thes. 3:6, 14; II Tim. 2:16).
3) Do tell Headquarters as soon as possible. (If you do not give this notice, you are saying that you do not care if such men pull out of the Church others who may not be as strong. This also sends the message that you are sympathetic.)
4) Then tell your local minister as soon as possible. (Of course, if your local minister is the one who has gone off-track, see rule #3!!!)
5) Pray fervently about the situation, asking God that you not be tempted and that He would help all others in the same way.
Following these steps carefully and prayerfully ensures that, in the case of an attack on the flock, each of us can be part of the solution rather than part of the problem.
Attacks Come Before Leaps Forward
[Author’s Note: The context here references mid-2007.] “For some time, perhaps about six months, or so, Mr. Pack spoke a number of times to the staff about major leaps forward that must be just over the horizon for the Work of God. This was because we were suffering a series of defections, difficulties, persecution and trials, including the death of his wife and the near death of one of his sons—severe trials for both the Church, collectively, and Mr. Pack, personally—among other things.
“In fact, the Work did soon after witness far and away the greatest leaps (plural) forward we have seen. Very, very dramatic advancements came on the heels of these trials. Nothing that we have previously experienced compared to the kinds of announcements we went on to make and are still making.
“Just as Mr. Armstrong endured intense trials prior to each breakthrough in preaching the gospel, during this final gun lap we saw the same—and will probably remain under greater or lesser attacks for the rest of the age.
“The Church always used to understand that severe trials winnowed out trouble-makers—that they caused, as Mr. Armstrong put it, ‘all the rotten apples to fall from the tree.’”
Prepare Now
Grasp this, brethren: Though God is on His throne, and Christ is the Head of the Church, these things can and will happen. But we have been forewarned, and “forewarned is forearmed”—having advance notice gives us time to prepare for spiritual battle.
This article is not the result of any great, broad expression of concern in the wake of a few ministerial losses. Quite the opposite. God’s people have been wonderfully stable, with not a single member at Headquarters following either of the two men who left, or the third man described above.
It is intended to be an inoculation—a measure to prevent unnecessary future losses—particularly for those who are very new to the Church and have not yet seen these types of events.
This will simply be part of the landscape for the rest of the age. Recent losses are only a simple “pop quiz” compared to coming future events. Remember! False prophets are foretold to arise from the midst of the Church—and some will perform miracles, powered by demons (an example of “lying wonders”—see II Thes. 2:9). Never forget that Satan wants to snatch your crown from off your head! And the pattern of history is that he uses human beings as agents to do this.
But invariably there is no real “bandwagon” gaining momentum. Rather, some sheep have simply been convinced to cease following true shepherds in favor of a wolf, being somehow unable to see his teeth or his claws.
To maintain perspective, the next time you hear about the ordination of one or more ministers, review this article. And when you hear that one or more ministers have left, review it again. Also, reading for review every year or so Mr. Pack’s book Should Accusers Be Answered? has become part of the Church’s spiritual diet. His recent sermons “The Devil—Deceive, Divide, Destroy,” and “Satan—8 Levels + 1” were not merely “sermons for that Sabbath.” They are hallmark messages—classics—that should be reviewed. So much is at stake in how you handle the devil—and in not letting him “handle” you!
Ultimately, taking the “100 miles above earth” view, the loss of a minister is a test of faith. Will we trust God? Do we truly believe that Christ can lead the Church He promised to never leave or forsake (Heb. 13:5)?
41 comments:
All that scribbling looks like Satan and the demons have been fooling around inside Dave Pack's head again.
“Dave Pack and his inability to keep his ministers”
Hopefully, any sincere and decent people who got deceived and betrayed by David Pack will escape from him and his RCG cult and somehow be able to recover from the whole disaster, with major lessons learned from that bad experience.
Oh come on! Give us the names of these men ... Even better: see that you interview them and publish these interviews here.
Jeff Ambrose
Arleen Ambrose
William Behrer
Jackie Behrer
Charles Bishop
Pat Bishop
John Capozzolo
Margaret Capozzolo
Ryan Caswell
Jessica Caswell
Scott Clark
Kevin Denee
Jennifer (Pack) Denee
Jonathan Dicen
Retzel Dicen
Robert Farrell
Gary Goebel
Donna Goebel
Bob Harrington
Gail Harrington
Gabriel Lischak
Davina Lischak
Tom Marchione
Anthony Mew
Melanie Mew
Joe Milich
Allison Milich
Justin Palm
Stacey Palm
Daniel Quimby
Nicole Quimby
Jake Toews
Robin Toews
James Turck
Steve Wazny
Candice Wazny
Mike Webster
Jill Webster
Regarding the inordinate amount of real estate that cult leaders may accumlate: this is what happened to Warren Jeffs, spiritual leader of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, after he was conviected in 2011 (from Wikipedia):
"Until courts in Utah intervened, Jeffs controlled almost all of the land in Colorado City, Arizona, and Hildale, Utah, which was part of a church trust called the United Effort Plan (UEP). The land has been estimated to be worth over $100 million. All UEP assets were put in the custody of the Utah court system pending further litigation. As the result of a November 2012 court decision, much of the UEP land is to be sold to those who live on it.[21]"
If a cult leader ever commits a criminal act (I am sure the leader's minions will be vigilant in tracking and documenting any of the leader's behavior that will be of strategic economic value), the above statement indicates that there is a legal precedent for turning over the real estate, with the help of a good lawyer, to whomever resides there.
When is PACK going to disappear??
Interesting to note that the "closer" that one was standing near Pack, the incidence of being gone was a higher percentage.
Same held true in the old WCG. The higher you went up in the pecking order, from country bumpkin deacon all the way up to being in Pasadena in the Hall of Administration , the higher were the odds that you would be executed, dismissed, disfellowshipped or simply left in disgust.
It works that way in totalitarian governments.
Dave has certainly mastered the art of portraying himself as an angel of light. Warnings against thieves is a manipulative ploy used to win the confidence of potential victims. After all, one would not expect a warning from a thief.
When people become accomplished deceivers, it's only by looking long and hard at the evidence, rather than their near hypnotic words, that the truth can be discerned. A glance won't do it.
Although this article by the Armstrongist leader has been gussied up in spiritual language, the simple and direct message is that being a cult leader is dog-eat-dog, surrounded by untrustworthy people, always vulnerable to internal coups.
Obviously they all failed to abide by the Ministerial Hire Test that Dave required be filled in and sent to him for consideration.
Never forget the criteria that had to be met to be a minister under Haggai Dave
https://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com/search?q=dave+pack+test+for+ministry
You are all wrong - there is only one true church - the continuing church of God.
And only one God and Bob Thiel is His prophet.
(Whoops - did I cite the wrong religion?)
"It is generally known that a younger local elder (having been previously demoted to this rank) at Headquarters recently left the Church. He came to believe that he was above counsel and correction, basically melting down when he faced setbacks and reversals and things did not go his way."
This is hilarious reading this description of me nearly 6 years later. I don't even know where to begin with Pack's pathological lying. Yes, I was privately demoted some months before I left. Of course, the reasons aren't remotely close to what to Pack states. I had a pattern of providing counsel to Pack he did not like. When he had enough, he demoted me, privately. One particular thing I had recommended to Pack, he chastised me for on the spot, but then a few months later at the feast, he announced the exact same plan to the church. Did he apologize to me for chastising me for the very idea he came to like and enact? Of course not.
Oh, and the melting down when things don't go his way is Pack perfectly describing himself. Many men experienced his epic childish meltdowns over the most trivial of things that affected him personally.
Pack also conveniently leaves out how he forced me and other ministers off payroll (in my case fired for supposedly not having suffered enough in life...for real, I was fired for that reason), but then he announces to church that we voluntarily went off payroll. Lies are numerous with that man. Oh, and he fired my wife through me while she was on maternity leave. What was her grievous act? She was supposedly too tough on people...lol. She was an accountant. Once again, a great example of Pack projecting his nature into others.
So in the end, after a spirited counseling session with other ministers, I quietly walked out of HQ, wrote a short resignation letter, and haven't looked back since.
Life is good.
Cheers to critical thinking and choosing one's own path.
Anon 6:04 And I followed soon after. Yes life is good my dear friend.
I've only just discovered this blog after attempting to get as much information as I can on RCG. I'm not associated with RCG and never will be. However someone close to me is. My original connection is WCG in Australia in the late 60's through to the early 80's. I've been religious free since then.
Could someone please give me the name of the minister from RCG that was sent to Australia sometime in 2011/12? Apparently it is of the upmost secret and my family member will not tell me.
Is it the same man that has been sent out to Australia now? Possibly around FOT time last year.
As for guessing, is it K Orel? (I think I have the correct spelling).
Anyone willing to give me more personal information on the character/ministerial approach of this man as well? Either Orel or whoever has been assigned to Australia.
Also as a side note - I'm quite sure in Armstrong's days Australia was either sent the 'naughty' ministers, as a kind of banishment or the super mean, tough ministers to beat us Aussies back on track.
How odd of Dave to talk so much about wolves, and how they operate. He came deceptively close to outing himself when he said that they work best in groups. He should have been more accurate and said they work in a "Pack".
Wow. It has been over 10 years since I left and I recognize over half of those names. Met alot of them. All good people. I would imagine they rightly discerned Dave could not possibly be a man of God for several, unavoidable to miss reasons. I would just hope they did communicate those reasons to their congregation. The only happy people in the church of Dave are those that have no contact with him and largely run a congregation free of his reach.
The ministers that stay are clones of David Pack: they harass their ‘sheeple’, lie to people, tear families apart, meanwhile telling the people in their congregation that ‘they need to examine themselves because they don’t have the right attitude’.
I’ve seen ministers do all that.. I’ve seen ministers harm and persecute people because they ‘didn’t like their attitude’ (aka ask critical questions about things). The ones that stay are as power crazy as David Pack is. They want absolute power over their private little kingdom and their slaves.
Just counting the numbers of faces and white ovals in that picture (excluding Dave and his wife): 73
Remaining faces: 26 = 35.6%
White ovals: 47 = 64.4%
Almost 2/3 are gone.
I guess the purge is a tactic that insecure and narcissistic dictators can't live without.
"Could someone please give me the name of the minister from RCG that was sent to Australia sometime in 2011/12? Apparently it is of the upmost secret and my family member will not tell me. "
I am working on getting you an answer. What is the "secret" you are referring to?
Anon 6:04 is telling the truth. I know, I also was a minister with RCG who left after "critically thinking" for myself. And yes, Pack makes up all kinds of lies, and defames anyone who leaves.
answer to NO2HWA question ....
the secret = the names of the Ministers 'looking' after the Australian branch of RCG.
My mother refuses to tell me - it's none of my business etc.
I suspect it's possibly more her secret because I think whoever he was he allowed my mother to think he was romantically interested (to the point that he instigated a private Skype relationship with her when he returned to the US). It eventually came to the point that she believed by travelling to the US a marriage proposal will be there waiting for her.
Of course the proposal didn't happen and was never going to happen.
It was just his way of fleecing a recently widowed, financially well off and vulnerable woman out of all her money.
Hence my interest in trying to find out if it's the same man who is there now?
This is what I found out today. Hope he is the one you were asking about
"I believe Gerhard Coetzer was the minister back in 2011/2012, but he is long gone from RCG"
thankyou NO2HWA for the answer.
Was this man single at the time he was in Australia?
Out of interest, when did he leave RCG?
I will see what I can find out. Can you email me at no2hwa@yahoo.com and I'll let you know what I find out.
What makes a person go to another Armstrong splinter cult of a nothing, no name "minister" after leaving their mother of whores church? What are they looking for?
@Anon 4:03AM
From rollingstone.com:
.... ‘It’s common for former cult members to join another group immediately following their departure, even if they find themselves disillusioned with organized religion or spirituality in general. This practice is known as “cult-hopping,” explains Steve KD Eichel, PhD, president of the International Cultic Studies Association, referring to it as “a phenomenon that those of us who have been studying this have been well aware of for over 30 years. The practice is common, in part because those who are kicked out of a cult or excommunicated are looking for another organization to fill the void. Most cults teach adherents that they are wholly responsible for their own actions, which creates feelings of extreme self-doubt and anguish when they’e cut off from their support system. “That leaves [them] vulnerable to another group to say, ‘Well no, you’re in the wrong group, this is the right group’ according to Eichel.
So .. Something to do with low self esteem maybe? Or the inability to take responsibility for ones own life? Maybe the need to ‘belong’ somewhere? Or a combination of all that?
I’m not a psychologist, but I think that kinda sums it up
Here’s the link to that whole article about ‘cult hopping’
https://www.google.nl/amp/s/www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/what-is-cult-hopping-nxivm-dos-838750/amp/
4:03, I personally think that part of the answer is that they want to have someone else tell them what to do, as long as they have someone to do that, then they don't have to take any responsibility for it. My husband and I were free from WWCG for 10+ years, he then joined up with Pack's group, my question to him was, "If you know what it is you're supposed to be doing, then why do you need someone to tell you what to do? Is Christ himself not enough for you?" I never got an answer to that from him. Just my view on it.
Anonymous at 4:03 AM said...“What makes a person go to another Armstrong splinter cult of a nothing, no name 'minister' after leaving their mother of whores church? What are they looking for?”
They are looking for God's one true representative on planet Earth with the truth of God.
Sadly, they keep on finding these lying, thieving, false prophets like Dave Pack and other pieces of dung.
Anonymous at 4:03 AM said...“What makes a person go to another Armstrong splinter cult of a nothing, no name 'minister' after leaving their mother of whores church? What are they looking for?”
They are looking for God's one true representative on planet Earth with the truth of God.
Sadly, they keep on finding these lying, thieving, false prophets like Dave Pack and other pieces of dung.
And, of course, don’t rule out plain old fashioned FEAR. Because inside the ‘church’ you’re constantly being reminded about the ‘unpardonable sin’ and that you will end up in the Lake of Fire if you leave the ‘church’.
And that phobia is firmly installed by Pack and his kind. It runs deep, even still with a lot of ex-members ..
I wonder: how did any other ex-members here cope with that? How did they overcome that fear?
Anon, June 30, 2020 at 10:35 AM, said:
******
"And, of course, don’t rule out plain old fashioned FEAR. Because inside the ‘church’ you’re constantly being reminded about the ‘unpardonable sin’ and that you will end up in the Lake of Fire if you leave the ‘church’.
And that phobia is firmly installed by Pack and his kind. It runs deep, even still with a lot of ex-members ..
I wonder: how did any other ex-members here cope with that? How did they overcome that fear?"
******
When the xcog hirelings use that phrase "unpardonable sin," they are deeply into Fear Religion. Besides, one cannot even find that phrase in the Bible. It is virtually a waste of time to spend time coping with anyone that pushes that style of Fear Religion.
Perhaps one could just ask the hireling: "While you are pointing your finger at others for committing some "unpardonable sin," the remaining fingers on your hand point back at yourself, so how can you know that you, yourself, have not committed the "unpardonable sin?"
Who would ask such a thing?
Time will tell...
John
4.03 AM
"What are they looking for?"
They are looking for another mommy or daddy. Paul talked about leaving childhood behind. Christ stayed around for 40 days after His resurrection rather than 40 years or 400 years. That is, Gods way is that of growing up and being self responsible.
No mommy's or daddy's required.
As a young child growing up in WCG and consciously deciding things when I was a teenager and a young adult I never really believed in the unpardonable sin. My personal concept of 'God' that I was forming in my mind would never do that. I didn't see why it would be in his interest to punish like that.
I did form an opinion, which might have been flawed but it was the inbuilt guideline that helped me decide my actions.
Christ returns and we get tossed up into the 'spirit world'. Hanging around doing what? Absolutely nothing from my perspective. How boring. We had to wait 1000 yrs for Satan to be released before we started to see some action.
In the meantime we're fluttering around being all godlike and completely useless. We can only look down but can't do anything at all, can't help/protect as we watch our future family generations wipe themselves out on earth. You know bad car accidents, business failures, drug habits, bad health, all the aweful stuff and we as spirit beings could only watch on.
This was my definition of Hell. A horrible Hell. Who wants to live forever with this as the reward?
The Lake of Fire, again why would that be in God's interest?
3:55
You may be on to something.
However your phrasing suggests an insult, whilst it is entirely possible for evil characters to create a toxic environment where people lose the "self" and get hooked by a substitute to make their decisions as you imply.
One of the techniques is to shower often desparate or other people in need of love with love and attention of a group. When a person is hooked, the mindgame of alternating acceptance and casting away starts. Causing a person to loose the "ego" and ability to make personal decisions.
You can see the same at political rallies, abu ghraib, crazy churches and cults. NEVER EVER will you encounter websites of disgruntled ex boyscouts or ex mercedes drivers. Ex culties are rampant.
Nck
Its not Ken Orel. Must be Louis Grey...
Lol... Including me, I count 3 ex RCG ministers reading these posts. I got fired by one of them... maybe both!
NO2HWA 7:45
Anon 7:50 / 7:53
Just to clear things up... I served as Preaching Elder in Australia from about September 2010 until June 2011. I was fired right after the Ministerial Conference that year for being disagreeable with David Pack. At the time there was alot of unhappiness at HQ and several employees complained to me about their treatment. Anyway, I am not sure who went to Australia after I was sent back to South Africa, but I know Louis Grey was sent there eventually. He and Jaco Viljoen permanently disfellowshipped me in South Africa for having "spiritual cancer" and some other nonsense excuses. As for the secret relationship, I have no knowledge of it, but I can just imagined what a mess up it caused for that poor widow. I can't even think who it might be. Take care... G.C.
You left my name out, but who cares anyway? Lol
Thankyou for replying to my question about RCG ministers in Australia.
My mother became interested (after multiple bunny hops from other splinter groups)in RCG in 2010 and possibly joined RCG in 2011. My father died in June 2012. My mother travelled to the US in 2015.
I get so many different lies from her about RCG and the ministers (no way would she admit to me that some have left RCG) that it is hard to piece things together. She also refuses o give me his name.
Rumour has it that the same bloke is back in town and I was thinking of having a chat with him about his treatment of my mother and her now currant appalling financial situation. Especially while he is 'stuck' in Australia because of covid. Of course the man might not have been a minister and was just a FOT visitor from the US.
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