Before this gets lost in the comments:
"It is generally known that a younger local elder (having been previously demoted to this rank) at Headquarters recently left the Church. He came to believe that he was above counsel and correction, basically melting down when he faced setbacks and reversals and things did not go his way."
This is hilarious reading this description of me nearly 6 years later. I don't even know where to begin with Pack's pathological lying. Yes, I was privately demoted some months before I left. Of course, the reasons aren't remotely close to what to Pack states. I had a pattern of providing counsel to Pack he did not like. When he had enough, he demoted me, privately.
One particular thing I had recommended to Pack, he chastised me for on the spot, but then a few months later at the feast, he announced the exact same plan to the church. Did he apologize to me for chastising me for the very idea he came to like and enact? Of course not.
Oh, and the melting down when things don't go his way is Pack perfectly describing himself. Many men experienced his epic childish meltdowns over the most trivial of things that affected him personally.
Pack also conveniently leaves out how he forced me and other ministers off payroll (in my case fired for supposedly not having suffered enough in life...for real, I was fired for that reason), but then he announces to church that we voluntarily went off payroll.
Lies are numerous with that man.
Oh, and he fired my wife through me while she was on maternity leave. What was her grievous act? She was supposedly too tough on people...lol. She was an accountant.
Once again, a great example of Pack projecting his nature into others.
So in the end, after a spirited counseling session with other ministers, I quietly walked out of HQ, wrote a short resignation letter, and haven't looked back since.
Life is good.
Cheers to critical thinking and choosing one's own path.
31 comments:
Dave is the master of projection. I imagine he would not even know what that meant.
He was indeed a master of it. I've never met anyone like him, and hope I never do. Working close to him was like living in an alternate dimension where one no longer knows up from down or left from right. He has the ability to pull you in to his twisted alternate reality of his own making. When real life doesn't align with his warped sense of it, which is often, look out. He somehow believes he can just speak and then it is. Yet it often isn't, and there enters lies, deceit, confusion, twisted machinations, etc.
Your meme at the top of the post perfectly describes all the current leadership of COG's. Bob Thiel, Gerald Flurry, Ron Weinland, and others. Not a single thing they say can really be trusted. They are so used to lying that they think they are telling the truth. That is why no one trusts these guys.
Scapegoating, psychologically speaking, occurs when someone recognizes, fears, and hates some aspect of his own character. In order to convince himself that he's not really guilty of what he sees in himself, he attacks that character aspect as he perceives it in the people around him.
If that character aspect is genuinely present in the others, the attacker is still displaying a serious psychological flaw, even if it isn't projection.
Dave Pack spent decades in WCG surrounded by narcissists, bullies, doctrinal compromisers, liars, thieves, and just plain a$$ho!es. It would have been easy for him to deny those qualities in himself by attacking those other people. Now, with an ever-shrinking circle of influence, it appears that he's had to resort to plain old MAKING SH!T UP about other people in order to control them and to avoid the crushing psychological weight of accepting his own failures as a human being.
Pack puts his employees down than gives one of those "Pass it on" messages about kindness and love The hypocrite
A point we should all ponder is "Why does this guy have the putative flaws that he has and yet he is able to rule with a rod of iron over an Apocalyptic Millerite church - albeit a small one?"
There is a valuable sociological study buried in this.
Klepto-Dave Pack-of-lies
Lying, stealing, destroying, and killing – just like Satan wants him to do.
Herbert and Garner Ted Armstrong have been accused of many things, some (if not many) of which are true. But one thing I don't ever remember either Armstrong being accused of being pathological liars!
It takes quire a mental disorder to be a pathological liar. I have known of politicians who are pathological liars. Every word out of their mouths are lies, constantly.
Proverbs 19:9 - A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who breathes out lies will perish (Dave Pack).
Richard
Herbert and Garner Ted Armstrong have been accused of many things, some (if not many) of which are true. But one thing I don't ever remember either Armstrong being accused of being pathological liars!
Maybe not pathological, but certainly shameless. GTA lied like crazy about his Navy experiences. HWA's so-called Autobiography has large passages of pure fiction.
Pathological liars within the Ministry are sadly too easily found within WCG and the splinters. I would say you are more likely to encounter a pathological lying Pastor than a true one.
Herbert and Garner Ted both lied through their teeth too Richard. They both called each other out on lying on numerous occasions over the years.
Dave Pack is only a production line clone of them, gone lose cannon, with his common belief.
Lying religious leaders who have plagued Christianity throughout time.
Just a thought. Not diagnosing. Just observing and wondering. For years I have noted that many of the behaviors and experiences of the Old Testament prophets and Kings as well as some NT characters like Paul, today would be defined as symptomatic of known medical or psychological conditions. Many containing both. For the OT Prophets it was Anxiety and Depression such as Jeremiah lamenting over the losses and defeat of Israel etc. Ezekiel with schizophrenia voices that only he heard along with odd behaviors and visions. And even Paul, who if really had a Damascus Road experience would be considered to day as presenting with "Temporal lobe epilepsy with religious content" Even Gospel Jesus "miracle" healing of some would simply be today seen as an epileptic seizure lasting about 20 minutes and going away on its own. Clever or accidental timing could make one appear to have done the healing etc.
Dave Pack does present with some unusual physical characteristics that medically may indicate physical and mental conditions and tendencies know to be part of such hormonal deficiencies from childhood.
So, demons are actually the ignorance of schizophrenia resulting in quirky personalities , with religious content. All quite physical in their origins but either useful or dangerous in some professions as well. These conditions are also either something those suffering with are unable or unwilling to admit to and seek appropriate help
"Acromegaly is a syndrome seen in adults due to excessive production of pituitary growth hormone as a result of adenoma or hyperplasia of the eosinophilic cells of the anterior pituitary gland. The clinical features of acromegaly include skeletal overgrowth affecting mainly the hands, feet, skull as well as kyphosis, hypertension, hypogonadism and diabetes mellitus."
Symptoms
The main symptom of gigantism is accelerated growth, which means the child will be unusually tall for his age.
Other symptoms and traits include:
general weakness;
large head;
a very large appetite;
prominent forehead;
excessive sweating;
very large hands and feet;
coarse-looking facial features;
protruding jaw.
"Bleuler was the first to study psychiatric symptoms in patients with acromegaly.3 He described personality changes characterized by lack of initiative and spontaneity with brief periods of impulsive behaviour and, at times, cheerfulness and self-satisfaction. He also observed brief mood swings with spells of anxiety along with bradyphrenia,
egocentricity and lack of concern. The presence of depressive symptoms was reported by Avery and Margo.4,5 Sivakumar and Williams reported a case of acromegaly with depression and pathological gambling.6 The presence of psychotic symptoms in a patient with acromegaly was described by Pye and Abbott in 1983.7 Their patient had delusions of reference, persecution, and visual and second-person auditory hallucinations. Spence reported the presence of delusions of persecution, visual and auditory hallucinations with depression in a patient with acromegaly.2"
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Schneiderian+first-rank+symptoms&cvid=854801c92bde4f268dcb9fa794eb5bc1&FORM=ANNTA1&PC=HCTS
"Schneiderian first rank symptoms
First-rank symptoms of schizophrenia Auditory hallucinations. Auditory hallucinations taking the form of a voice or voices repeating the subject's thoughts out loud. The experience of intrusion of unusual ideas or thoughts into the subject's mind as a result of the action of some external agency (Thought insertion)."
Richard
Every abusive cult is by definition a web of lies. Herb, GTA and others were not perceived as liars since it's members believed that the WWCOG was the one true church.
Brainwashed people don't realize that they are deceived.
That "cheers to critical thinking" was part of your training at Pack university. Critical thinking 101 was Mr. Pack's favorite course according to him.
You found out that your use of it before him is limited to Deacon work at best. You were just another Mr. Jones as you know; "there isn't going to be a Mrs. or Mr. Jones that will bring doctrine into the church".
That we all speak the same thing and are perfectly joined together in mind and thought can be the most damaging concept known when it is in the power of the wrong man. That wrong man was in your presence and he continues to enforce the concept that everyone must speak what he speaks, believe what he believes and obey what he tells you to obey.
When Mr. Pack spit out with vile for 20 minutes to open a sermon about exactly what was the greatest doctrine of the church, hardly a soul in the RCG raised an eyebrow.
That declared number one greatest doctrine is: "you have to believe and obey all things that the church (Dave Pack) teaches and if you don't, you are a heretic and will go into the lake of fire".
Choosing your 'own path" has a greater meaning for an ex RCG member who has to come to terms with just how much Dave Pack do I have in me and how hard will it be to divest his character out of my life.
Dennis
Dave Pack is tall but no-one is calling him a giant.
7:44
Pack spike a lot about critical thinking yet actually did very little of it in reality, like most things he said he does. He just assigns terms to things and pounds those terms in others' minds ad nauseam. True critical thinking is the antithesis of Pack's nonsense.
And yes, for sure, forging one's own path has deep meaning for an ex RCGer who was in close with Pack's derangement for years. It takes time, but eventually the brain's neurons can be refashioned away from lunacy into something closer to soundness. Thankfully the brain is extremely plastic.
The "You MUST believe" is about the same as "You MUST relax!" The must puts a certain pressure on the words "believe" and "relax" causing problems with believing and relaxing :)
If you think about it. What God would allow His Church and thereby the salvation of mankind to be run by one mortal man. It is actually ridiculous to think that and we have thousands of examples throughout history to illustrate the folly in that thinking. Dave is just the latest example of a man lurching towards vanity. Just read this guys self aggrandizing biography. It is full of hypocrisy, blaming evil men for their mistreatment of him and the clear narrative that he, and he alone, have been chosen by God to lead. So you get these self appointed titles like Joshua. Apostle. Elijah. Etc. Dave is just another example why God would never place a man over Jesus Christ.
Pack , more and more, sounds like the delusional "end of the line: Hitler , hiding in his bunker, giving orders for imaginary armies, and being paranoid about all of his associates and ordering either their arrests or assassinations.
This is Dave Pack
Do any of you readers fear that you haven't qualified for the kingdom?
Not a problem. Simply give me all your money, and your entry into the kingdom is assured. For example, on judgment day, the conversion could go like:
God: "into the lake of fire you go."
Dave: "But Lord, he/she harkened to the common doctrine, and gave me all their money."
God: "Well, in that case, I'II allow you into the kingdom."
OR
God: "you just qualified for the kingdom, ruling one city."
Dave: "But Lord, this person gave me all their money."
God: "Well done. Now you get to rule ten cities instead of one."
So everyone, give me all your money.
“Dave Pack: The Pathological Liar”
Dave Pack: The Packillogical Liar.
Dave Pack: The Packillogical Liar.
Dave Pack makes a mockery of logic by reasoning around to whatever utter nonsense he wants to.
Dave Pack makes a mockery of proofs by coming up with hundreds of “proofs” that really do not prove anything at all.
I, of course, disagree with Dennis. His derogation of mystical events involves finding a natural explanation no matter how ill-fitting. What else can a materialist do? This is like the derision with which the Impressionists were initially received in France. The critics at that time said these guys (Monet, Renoir, Pissarro, etc.) simply could not paint and their work was crazy.
Pack then becomes Dennis' reason to deride Christianity as a whole with psychiatry as the bridge. My view is that no empirical evidence can be furnished to support this idea - no matter how materialist - and this view must forever live in the realm of lurid speculation.
Instead, we might ask ourselves: "What is the skill set for an Apocalyptic Millerite preacher?" It is possible when we match performance to skill set for many of these splinter group leaders, we would discover a solid, sane, creditable performance. We might disagree with the merits and goals of the job but we could not deny the skilled execution of its requirements.
Note: Doesn't this same controversy revolve around D. Trump? Some say he is crazy, would-be tyrant. His supporters deny this and instead assert that he is a purposeful disruptor there to shake things up for the better.
Simply give me all your money, and your entry into the kingdom is assured.
That seems like the selling of indulgences by the Catholic Church to raise funds: “When a penny in the coffer rings, / A soul from Purgatory springs.” I'm sure someone will come up with a Pack-parody of that using "common".
Anonymous June 29, 2020 at 7:31 AM said, "Richard, Every abusive cult is by definition a web of lies. Herb, GTA and others were not perceived as liars since it's members believed that the WWCOG was the one true church. Brainwashed people don't realize that they are deceived.
MY COMMENT - That may well be true, but that doesn't make the Armstrong "pathological liars". Here is a definition of "Pathological Liar" found on Google – Definition: Pathological liar refers to a liar that is compulsive or impulsive, lies on a regular basis and is unable to control their lying despite of foreseeing inevitable negative consequences or ultimate disclosure of the lie.
Does someone who has delusions of grandeur or has convinced himself that he is God's 20th Century Apostle (or in the case of almost arrested for Sabbath keeping Doctorate from a mail order degree mill Bobby Thiel delusions)automatically make them a "pathological liar"?
What if the brainwashed people are the cult leader's themselves and don't realize that they are deceived. Does that make them pathological liars?
And while we are on the subject of lies, there seem to be several types of lies - intentional lies, unintentional lies and pathological lies. Or, as others have said, "there are three types of lies - lies, damn lies and statistics" :)
For example, "1975 in Prophecy" could have been an intentional lie. Written in the 1950s, it predicted the return of Christ in 1975 with a 1972 Great Tribulation. It But I don't think it was an intentional lie. Nor do I think it was a pathological lie. So, I settle on "1975 in Prophecy" being an unintentional lie. I believe the Armstrongs and most of the entire Church sincerely believed with all our beings that the "Work of God" would end in the first week of January, 1972 with a German attack on America. We were wrong! (Yes, "we" because many in the Church believed it also).
Another example, Pentecost. When the evidence was presented to Herbert Armstrong, the Church changed the day of observance from Monday to Sunday. Was keeping a Monday Pentecost an intentional lie, an unintentional lie, or a pathological lie?
I will add to my original statement, Herbert and Garner Ted Armstrong have been accused of many things, some (if not many) of which are true. But the one thing I don't ever remember either Armstrong ever being accused of, and that is being pathological liars! This is a recent historical revisionist accusation.
Richard
Don't want a detailed list of everything but can you give me a couple "for instances" of lies Mr Armstrong put in his Autobiography?
Don't want a detailed list of everything but can you give me a couple "for instances" of lies Mr Armstrong put in his Autobiography?
lies Mr Armstrong put in his Autobiography?
Don't know which is the lie, HWA wrote about the Baptist he hired to organize the fledgling Ambassador College. He wrote how he kindly and discretely had to deal with the way the man organized the Bible classes. In a sermon, HWA said he gave the man hell and made him attend the Bible class that he (HWA) decided to teach personally - contradicting his Autobiography account.
One of my favorite Autobiography incidents was when HWA had to talk to some CG7 VIP because of his (HWA's) personal take on the clean/unclean meats doctrine. HWA wrote that he burst into a meeting, mocked the VIP, and gave him a written document on his take on the doctrine. [to HWA it was a health issue only] The VIP apparently said as long as he keeps the rule, the reason for doing so didn't matter. HWA presented himself as an arrogant unapologetic upstart and know-it-all... ring any bells?
Garner Ted repeatedly called his Dad's autobiography a work of fiction.
Its more a case that you read that repeatedly on blogs.
Unless you tell me you'd been a cgi member for over 20 years? Its not on tapes I guess,or perhaps once around 1979 to give you one straw as human to human.
Nck
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