Tuesday, June 2, 2020

Is God just waiting to pounce on sinful nations?



GOD AND THE MORALITY OF A NATION

Many modern Christian leaders are fond of pointing out that God is standing at the ready to punish the United States (and other Western nations) for its (their) sins. Of course, the majority of these prophets of doom have a few very specific sins in mind when they say such things.

Notice this exchange that recently took place on Pat Robertson's The 700 Club:
“How can God heal our land and forgive the sins when abortion and same-sex marriage are laws and many people are anti-Israel. Doesn’t this prevent his healing and forgiveness?” a viewer named John asked on the television program.
In response, Robertson said John was "right."
“The Bible says ... turn from their wicked ways," said Robertson, adding, "We are not turning when we have done terrible things. We have broken the covenant that God made with the mankind. We have violated his covenant.”
“We’ve allowed this terrible plague to spread throughout our society. And it’s a small wonder God would hold us guilty," he said. “But the answer is, you confess your sins and forsake them. Then he heals the land. It’s not before." see Pat Robertson: Same sex marriage caused coronavirus
Likewise, many years ago, Herbert Armstrong wrote in his The United States and Britain in Prophecy:
It will now be made plain — from God's own warning prophecies — that this greatest multiplied intensity of corrective punishment will fall on Britain and America — including British peoples in Commonwealth countries. And it will strike them down first!
But they are not the only nations to suffer corrective disaster. God is Creator of all other nations, too! God is concerned about the people and races we have called "heathen." They, too, are human. They, too, are made in God's own likeness, with the potential of being molded into God's spiritual and character IMAGE! God sent the apostle Paul to Gentile nations!
All mankind has rebelled against, rejected, and turned from God and His ways! There can never be peace on earth until all nations will have been turned to God and His ways, ruled by His supreme government!
All mankind, right now, is caught in the vortex of the swiftly accelerating crisis marking utter destruction of this world's man- built, Satan-inspired civilization...God will use a Nazi-Fascist Europe to punish Britain-America. Then He will use the Communist hordes to wipe out the Roman Europe. We are entering a time of world trouble — utter world chaos! There is war, strife, violence in Asia, Africa, South America — as well as Europe and North America. The population explosion is a worldwide threat to human existence. Crime, violence, sickness, disease, inequality, poverty, filth, squalor, degeneration, suffering — these infest ALL nations! see US & BC In Prophecy
For these (and many other) preachers, the sins of a nation invite Divine punishment. But which sins are societal in nature, and which sins are personal in nature? Is abortion a sin? Who decides? Does individual conscience play any role in determining whether or not it is a sin? And, if it is a sin, is it a personal sin, a societal sin or both? Likewise, is homosexuality a sin? OR Is same-sex behavior the sin? And, if we say that homosexuality is a personal choice, how can it also be a societal sin? Does a Supreme Court decision make everyone guilty? What about the folks who reject abortion and homosexuality? What if there are fifty people in the nation who reject these behaviors? What if there are only ten people in the nation who reject those behaviors?

What about America's other sins? What about the sins of stealing lands from Native Americans and breaking treaties with them (not to mention all of the deaths that those policies generated)? And, since these were government instigated or led sins, aren't these sins clearly collective in nature? What about the sin of slavery? What about the hundreds of thousands of deaths associated with that institution and the war that was fought to end it? What about all of the societal, political, economic and criminal justice inequities that slavery engendered in America? And how many generations did it take to wipe away those sins? Were those sins laundered away by the generations who succeeded the generations who actually committed those sins? Does a painting that was stolen from a Jewish family actually become the legitimate property of the descendants of the Nazi who stole it? And, if previous generations didn't suffer Divine punishment for their sins, why must the current generation pay for theirs? Is that justice? Is that fair? And, if we say that those individuals paid for their sins, what does that do to the entire concept of collective punishment?

Is God just waiting to pounce on sinful nations? OR Has God "bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all"? (Romans 11:32) Are particular nations going to be singled out for Divine punishment because of their sins? OR Have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God? (Romans 3:23) Is God eager to zap wayward nations? OR Does God want "all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth"? (I Timothy 2:4) And, if that's truly what God wants, is that what's going to happen? Hmmmm, maybe this whole subject isn't as straightforward and simplistic as some of these evangelists would have us believe? 

Lonnie Hendrik

24 comments:

Anonymous said...

God is more disgusted by COG leadership than he is with problems in society. COG leaders claim to represent him and they don't. They lie. Society may have its issues, but COG leaders claim divine inspiration so they should know better than to do the shit they are doing now.

Anonymous said...

This virus is because of the acog's. Try that.

God punishes America because of people like Weston, Thiel, Malm, Flurry.

Anonymous said...

Is God punishing the nation because of Bob Thiel?

There, I changed the headline.

Anonymous said...

@anonymus 6:16PM
You forgot the worst one: David Pack..

TLA said...

Our year of problems also presents a huge problem for the COGs.
Germany!
The COG understanding of prophecy requires Germany to attack and overcome the USA.
The Germans are not cooperating - looks like they are tired of war and have symbolically beaten their swords into plowshares.
Maybe the prophet man can come up with a catholic or Mayan prophecy to explain this?

Save us prophet man!

Prayer rock preacher - help us poor souls understand.

LCG - give us some sure words of prophecy.

Anonymous said...

You write as if you are screwed up on it all Lonnie.

Anonymous said...

This gaol of this article seems to be one of muddying the issue of moral judgement. It's as if we can't be sure of anything. I don't believe God sees it that way. The ten commandments are hard wired into the human brain, so despite today's religious and moral confusion, God still expects a basic level of moral behavior.
When people morally decline, the only reality that they understand is what they can get away with. Which is why God is forced to use harsh punishments, both individually and nationally.

Anonymous said...

Lonnie, obviously you believe that homosexuality is a e n or else you wouldn't claim to be an abstinent homesexual, yet you continue to push your pro-homosexual agenda. All the while ridiculing Christianity's, conservative's and Trump's agenda. Hypocrite much?

Anonymous said...

A response to this post could end up being a grand tour through theodicy. Let me observe one thing. Paul said we live in an evil world. Paul rejoiced at the fact that Christ overthrew Thrones, Principalities and Powers in the invisible spirit realm. Though they were overthrown, they have not been removed from office - another case of "already but not yet."

When some see the outplaying of evil in this world, they tend to attribute this without reflection to God. Apocalyptics especially like to set their sails and ride on this variable wind. These people overlook the action of Thrones, Principalities and Powers. So in all the tragedy and the warfare among nations, Apocalyptics think they see the face of God and they then must render up a Biblical account of some kind of divine intervention to punish. Often, I expect this is the wrong view.

Just saying...


See: https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2008/05/tsunami-and-theodicy

Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix said...

Anonymous 6/3 @5:31,

You state your personal belief that you "don't believe God sees it that way," but you don't provide any basis for that belief. How do you know that "the ten commandments are hard wired into the human brain?" And, if the penalty for sin is death, why is an additional collective punishment necessary? Did Christ employ punishments to make people more responsive to his demands for repentance? And, if punishment truly reflects God's modus operandi, then why do the righteous suffer and the wicked prosper?

Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix said...

Please explain how this post pushes a homosexual agenda of any kind? Indeed, the post was written for an audience that assumes homosexuality is a sin. I am a Christian. Although I'm not an apologist, my criticisms are confined to certain elements within the Christian community that I believe are harmful and heretical (e.g. Fundamentalists, Literalists, Armstrongites). Likewise, I am conservative on many issues (deficit spending, tax policy, military preparedness, etc.), so there is also no blanket condemnation or criticism of conservatives inherent in my critiques. Finally, I am celibate because it suits my current circumstances, and I believe it lends moral weight to the arguments I make about human sexuality - not because I believe homosexuality is a sin. I hope that clarifies my position.
If you have any problems with the content of the post, please address them. Your misconception of me as an individual has nothing to do with the theological/philosophical questions raised in the article. In other words, this kind of commentary is irrelevant to the points made and does nothing to answer them.

Feastgoer said...

All nations indeed have sinned. Not simply the U.S. All of them. Even Israel.

Jesus is coming to judge all of them - not only the one where you live.

Anonymous said...

Miller Jones
God defines reality. It is the self evident that the ten commandments are hard wired into the human brain, plus there are many pro life mental drives and biases. For example, humans know instinctively that it is wrong to harm others. That God repeatedly punished gentile nations in the OT is proof that God believed that they understood right from wrong. Nineveh repented without God spelling out the ten commandments.

"The penalty of sin is death" is another way of saying that sin is that which harms and destroys. Just like human parents, God punishes to discourage destructive behavior.

Yes, the righteous suffer. Society can be a blessing of a curse. But I don't believe that the wicked truly prosper. They die on the inside (leanness of spirit),so they don't enjoy their I'll gotten gains.

nck said...

The Chinese imperial concept was and is that an emperor could loose the mandate of heaven.

Even the current Party is bound to this concept that their rule should lead to progress lest they should loose the mandate to rule, in breach of contract with the people as bound in heaven.

Nck

Anonymous said...

So Lonnie Hedrick is also Miller Jones = same person.

Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix said...

Anonymous 6/3 @ 1:28,

Yes, GOD DEFINES REALITY - NOT you, not me, not anyone else who comments here! We must all be willing to acknowledge that our perception of reality may be (and most probably is) flawed and incomplete (we see through a glass darkly). I agree with you that most of us seem to be hardwired to understand that harming each other is wrong. I would also say that we are hardwired to desire a relationship with the Divine. However, this does not demonstrate the proposition that we are hardwired to understand or accept the ten commandments. On the contrary, Scripture informs us that the natural mind is not subject to the law of God and cannot be made subject to it without the aid of the Holy Spirit (see Romans 8:7). Moreover, the history of human experience on this planet (and what we know about human psychology) tends to reinforce Paul's statement.

You seem to be postulating that God intervenes in human affairs on a regular basis - that God punishes individuals and nations for their sins. Where is the evidence for Divine intervention? You seem to be implying that things like disease, weather and seismic activity are instruments of Divine punishment. If so, where is the evidence that these phenomena are anything other than natural occurrences on planet earth? And, if God is intervening on a regular basis, doesn't that make a travesty of the thesis that this is Satan's world? Also, if God intervenes on a regular basis, why is a grand future intervention even necessary? And, finally, what was the meaning of the parable about Lazarus and the rich man? Didn't that parable suggest future punishment and reward? Do you begin to see the cognitive dissonance, the inherent problems in logic, that is/are inherent in such assumptions about God's role in the present?

Anonymous said...

Lonnie, perhaps it's a combination of many of your posts and articles that I refer to. Like the one in the Journal trying to claim that a monogamous homosexual "marriage" is not sinful.

Yes Lonnie, you have an agenda. Deny it all that you want!

For the record I believe that heterosexual sins are just as sinful as homosexual sins, no more no less!

Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix said...

Anonymous 6/4 @6:01,

OK, so you disagreed with my Journal article expressing support for monogamous homosexual marriage and other unnamed related articles, but what does that have to do with this one? My agenda is to provoke thought about beliefs - especially beliefs that are illogical and heretical. Finally, thank you for your acknowledgement of hetero/homo sin equality - that's more enlightened than many of the criticisms I've faced. --Lonnie

Anonymous said...

It reveals an agenda Lonnie, a deep rooted agenda! Which is what I said in the first place and you denied.

Anonymous said...

The bible stating that homosexuality is unnatural and an abomination in God's eyes is neither illogical or heretical.

Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix said...

Stating that God is punishing the United States because of homosexuality is both illogical and heretical. Once again, THIS ARTICLE DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH WETHER OR NOT HOMOSEXUALITY AND ABORTION ARE SINS! For the sake of argument, let's assume they are both sins - the thesis of the post stands!

Anonymous said...

I never said that God is punishing the US because of only homosexuality. I know of no one who's said that. If God is punishing the US I'm sure it's also because of the promiscuous heterosexual extra-marital sex too. Not to mention greed, baby killing, etc, etc, etc.

I'm not so sure that God has to do any punishing at all, sin has natural consequences that happen without a divine entity pushing the start button.

Just look at what the country's now reaping because of slavery. For those who don't believe in BI, things are sure looking like Jacob's trouble is starting up, and it's caused by Jacob's sins.

nck said...

Why does a divine superbeing living in 12 dimensions and multiple universes hate sex so much in the manner you presume? Hasnt it got more important stuff to do then nagging about the behavior of sweaty mortals exchanging bodily fluids? Or is it jyst you getting nausious by my throbbing description of the act.

Nck

Anonymous said...

Nck, the nauseousness comes not from your description but from the inadvertent picture of yourself that your description forced upon me. Yuck!

Only 12 dimensions? Multiple what? Oh, universes. I thought you said something else.

Do you keep a flog log too, like your mentor? I hear they're running a sale in the EU on those implant thingies.