Please note:
"Miller Jones requests that you direct all commentary on this piece to him and that you leave his father alone."
The Church of God International and Herbert W Armstrong’s Legacy
The late Ian Boyne once wrote: “I am happy for the CGI, to which I belong, which retains the finest teachings of Herbert Armstrong without the dross and the excesses. I am NOT saying it is the only true church! For all GTA’s moral weaknesses and reprehensible personal behavior, he reformed a system without throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Ron Dart’s work in the CGI has also been invaluable in preserving an intellectually respectable brand of Armstrongism.”
This sentiment (that CGI has gotten rid of all of Herbie’s errors and kept the good stuff) is/was NOT peculiar to Ian Boyne. Indeed, similar comments have been posted here in relation to many of the things which I’ve posted over the years relative to that group. In fact, some commentators have even suggested that my refusal to acknowledge this “fact” is proof that I was never actually affiliated with the group (never mind the numerous articles written by me for The International News over the years). Hence, I thought that it would be instructive to take another look at this claim and see how it measures up to the reality on the ground.
First, I have always been willing to acknowledge that CGI made significant changes to Herbie’s teachings about church government. CGI should be applauded for its more enlightened views on the meaning of servant leadership, but it should also be noted that the group still occasionally practices censorship and disfellowshipping within its ranks. And, while folks like Ian Boyne rejected Anglo-Israelism, Pastor Bill Watson continues to incorporate it into his messages and insist that it is an integral part of the church’s teachings. Also, to be fair, CGI has abandoned some of Herbie’s bizarre notions about things like divorce, make-up, healing, and personal finances.
Nevertheless, I must dispute in the strongest terms available to me that CGI has retained “the finest teachings of Herbert Armstrong.” For instance, the group continues to maintain that Christians are obligated to keep many of the tenets of the Old Covenant (Sabbath, Holy Days, Tithing, Clean/Unclean Meats). Likewise, they have retained many of Herbie’s twisted notions about prophecy, the “incredible human potential,” the “world tomorrow,” angels, Binitarianism, the meaning of Holy Day symbolism, the “truth” as the marker of a real Christian, the “true” gospel and the rejection of all things “pagan.”
I can hear it now, “Well, what’s wrong with those things?” Unfortunately, the plain truth is that the Church of God International has retained MOST of the core doctrines/teachings of Herbert W Armstrong. Yes, a search of their website may not turn up any mention of the man, but his fingerprints are all over the teachings and traditions of the Church of God International – whether or not they’re willing to acknowledge it!
--Miller Jones
34 comments:
Miller Jones
You are complaining about the core doctrines of the CGI.
Joe Tkach tried that, and look what happened.
Yet again "Miller Jones" the fake name, fake persona exposes the fact that they haven't a clue about CGI.
Keep it up Miller fake Jones as it's very funny.
Well, Lonnie, it sounds like they are simply being biblical.
The thing's in the past posted from this author has ruined his credibility.
Miller Jones wrote: "For instance, the group continues to maintain that Christians are obligated to keep many of the tenets of the Old Covenant (Sabbath, Holy Days, Tithing, Clean/Unclean Meats)."
MY COMMENT:
It is incorrect to apply those beliefs as originating or being discovered by HWA. They existed Pre HWA by decades, if not centuries. The COG 7th Day, GG Rupert or the Seventh Day Baptists, had many if not all of these. In the present day, the Hebrew Roots/Messianic movement incorporate these understandings, and have no idea who HWA even was.
I guess MR.Jones has not read his bible in a while. Of course he could be calling Christ a liar where in Mathew 5:17-18 where Christ says " I did not come to destroy the law" and in verse 18 "till heaven and earth pass away not one thing will change in the law". And I believe heaven and earth are still here.
The first six comments in this thread seek to maintain the fiction that the "core" doctrines of Armstrongism are just fine and dandy - nothing wrong with them. Yes, Tonto, one is certainly able to make the case that many (if not all) of Herbert Armstrong's teachings existed prior to his promulgation of them (the same could be said of many of the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses). So what? It was Armstrong who gathered them together into the neat little package of beliefs which we now refer to as Armstrongism (just demonstrates he wasn't much of an original thinker or innovator, and it definitely proves that they weren't specially revealed to him).
No where does the Bible state that Christians are required to keep/observe the tenets of the Old Covenant - NO WHERE! I've NEVER said that Christ came to destroy/negate/overthrow/do away with the law. I've always maintained that Christ came to FULFILL the law. Christ perfectly fulfilled/kept/observed the tenets of the Old Covenant so that he could establish the parameters of a NEW Covenant. Christ transformed the law for his followers and imprinted the spirit of the law on our hearts for eternity! And, while there is certainly NOTHING wrong with members of CGI observing the Sabbath (I continue to do so), Holy Days and Clean/Unclean Meats - their error is claiming that all Christians everywhere are OBLIGATED to do so.
"Christ transformed the law for his followers and imprinted the spirit of the law on our hearts for eternity!" The spirit of what law(s)?
Why assume the writers a he ?
Oh so you will be munching on pork during Sabbath services then. No surprise tbh.
Arguing with self now Tonto.
Circumcision was changed, the commanded sacrifices were changed - looks like more than just a jot or tittle was changed. So, what do you think Jesus meant?
I guess MR.Jones has not read his bible in a while. Of course he could be calling Christ a liar where in Mathew 5:17-18 where Christ says " I did not come to destroy the law" and in verse 18 "till heaven and earth pass away not one thing will change in the law". And I believe heaven and earth are still here.
Absolutely correct, but there's more. The argument goes that the law won't pass until all is fulfilled and since Jesus came to fulfill the law, the law has passed away. The problem with this logic is that there are 2 different words that are translated as "fulfill". In verse 17, the Greek word means "fill up to the fullest". In verse 18, the Greek word means "come to pass" or "has been accomplished". The KJV and NKJV simply are bad translations in this regard. Nearly all the other English versions have this rendered correctly. The bottom line is that not only did Jesus not destroy the laws, but He endorsed them, taught them and actually expanded them. And they won't go away until heaven and earth pass, and everything in God's plan has been accomplished.
Millar Jones writes:
“their error is claiming that all Christians everywhere are OBLIGATED to do so”.
If Christians are not ‘obligated’ to keep the Sabbath and holy days as a response to salvation, are there any days to keep to honor and on what basis?
(After Israel was saved from Egypt they were obligated by the covenant to keep the Sabbath and holy days).
Below is a comment on Gal 4:10 from the Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges:
“There is clearly no exemption here from the OBLIGATION of the observance of ‘the seventh day’. ‘The law of the Sabbath, i.e. of one weekly day of holy rest in God (the seventh in the Jewish, the first in the Christian Church) is as old as the Creation, it is founded on the moral and physical constitution of man, it was instituted in Paradise, incorporated in the Decalogue on Mount Sinai, put on a new foundation by the Resurrection of Christ, and is an absolute necessity for public worship and the welfare of man”.
Ex 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
I agree with the concept expressed above but not with keeping Sunday, which is not the seventh day. Yes Christ rose from the dead on the first day of the week (Sunday being the third day from Friday using biblical inclusive counting, cp. Ex 19:10-11, Lev 7:16-18) but this is no basis to change the fourth commandment to another day - Christ’s resurrection didn’t “hallow” Sunday.
If during the NC covenant with Israel the Kingdom, the Sabbath will be observed (cp. Eze 44:24b; 45:17a; Eze 46:1, 3-4, 12), shouldn’t it, as a matter of consistency, also be required for the NC with Israel the Church?
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
The Church in their reign (from heaven) during the Millennium will be ensuring that the sabbath and holydays will be kept, which they weren’t required to keep? A bit hypercritical?
Herbies ‘church’ and all the splinters that came out of it are all CULTS!
What HWA taught has nothing to do with God’s love. It was a money making machine.
Church History
All the doctrines, teachings, and practices in the Worldwide Church of God had come through Herbert W. Armstrong. So, in his old age HWA began to teach that he was the one who was prophesied to come in the spirit and power of Elijah to restore all things (Malachi 4:5-6 and Mark 9:12). There was a duality. Just as John the Baptist had come preaching in the wilderness of Judea ahead of Christ's first coming, so HWA had come preaching in this modern wilderness of religious confusion ahead of Christ's second coming. Everyone in the WCG seemed to believe this at the time, until after HWA died. Then many forgot about it, or had second thoughts about it, or openly rejected it, and some even began to say that they were the Elijah.
The disloyal, unfaithful rebels who rebelled against Christ's chosen apostle Herbert W. Armstrong and went with Garner Ted Armstrong's little Church of Ted, Incontinent and later even tinier Incontinent Church of Ted splinter groups are still having trouble over forty years later accepting the idea that they have been rejected by God and that God will never use them or work through them. Like Ron Dart, who rebelled with GTA, and then later rebelled against GTA, they were all basically “born to lose.” They still do not want to repent and admit their great folly and accept their great shame.
Anonymous 4/9 @ 12:40,
In response to my statement that Christ had imprinted the spirit of the law on our hearts for eternity, you asked "The spirit of what law(s)?"
I am referring to the law of God. Christ said that those laws could be summarized as two great principles: Love of God, and love of neighbor (see Matthew 22:34-40, Mark 12:28-31, 33 and Luke 10:25-28). Paul wrote the saints of Rome that LOVE fulfills the requirements of that law (see Romans 13:8-10). This is the law that the author of Hebrews was referring to in the tenth chapter when he/she quoted Jeremiah 31: "This is the new covenant I will make with my people on that day, says the Lord: I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." (see Hebrews 10:16)
I have an old prescription bottle from the 1800's. It's brown glass with a dried up old cork in the top. The medicine is a plant extract and has a high alcohol content. If a doctor were to pull a bottle of this stuff out of his desk and says that this product has been used for hundreds of years, and that I should try it, I would find another doctor. These medicines were in use temporarily until a real medication could came along that could actually cure me. This old medicine could mask some symptoms due to the placebo effect and alcohol, but not cure anything. It was a temporary fix. It was inferior. It was inadequate. Just like the Law of Moses and the Old Covenant. It could cover up sins, but not forgive them. It was inadequate, inferior, until the Messiah came. We shouldn't look to the old when we really need the new in medicine and in salvation.
Anonymous 4/9 @ 2:58,
In answer to some of the points that you and others have raised in this thread, I've provided links to some of the things I've already written on these subjects:
The following link begins a nine part series I did on the applicability of Sabbath/Holy Days to New Covenant Christians:
https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2014/03/did-god-designate-certain-day-or-days.html
Another piece I did on the New Covenant Sabbath:
https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2019/06/a-sabbath-for-all-christians.html
A relevant post regarding Christian obligations relative to the Old Covenant Holy Days:
https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2016/12/pagan-holidays-or-gods-holy-days-really.html
A post I did related to how Sunday observance among Christians began:
https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2020/05/the-real-history-of-true-church.html
Apostate glore out in force wanting all others to throw away their crown.
Brian the sacrifices are to return in the KOG.
4.11 PM
The law of Moses was not inadequate and inferior until Christ came. Like the laws of physics and chemistry, moral laws do not change. Or think of gardening, the rules never change.
A response to Brian:
Old Covenant and New Covenant (Mosaic and Ezekielian Torahs)
Five main sacrifices
Lev 1:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If [ki] any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD,
Lev 1:3 If his offering be a burnt offering
Lev 2:1 And when any will offer a grain offering
Lev 3:1 And if his oblation be a sacrifice of peace offering
Lev 4:32 And if he bring ... a sin offering [hatta’t]
Lev 6:6 And he shall bring his trespass offering
Eze 46:12 Now when [ki] the prince shall prepare a voluntary burnt offering or peace offerings voluntarily unto the LORD
Eze 44:29 They shall eat the grain offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering; and every dedicated thing in Israel shall be theirs.
Cleansing from ritual impurity
Lev 15:13 And when he that hath an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself seven days for his cleansing...
Lev 15:14 And on the eighth day he shall take to him two turtledoves, or two young pigeons
Lev 15:15 And the priest shall offer them, the one for a purification offering [hatta’t], and the other for a burnt offering;
Eze 44:26 And after he is cleansed, they shall reckon unto him seven days.
Eze 44:27 And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his purification offering [hatta’t]...
Circumcision
Ex 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
Eze 44:9 Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.
Law and Gentiles in the Millennium
Isa 2:3 And many people [‘ammim] shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people [‘ammim].
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations [goyim] which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Male strangers/goyim will have to be circumcised to participate in temple worship in the Millennium.
4:11 writes:
“Just like the Law of Moses and the Old Covenant. It could cover up sins, but not forgive them.”
Would you like to qualify what you have stated in regard to the Scriptures and comment below?:
Ex 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
Ex 34:7a Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression [pesha‘] and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty;
Lev 4:26b and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev 4:31b and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev 4:35b and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev 5:10b and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev 5:16b and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev 19:22b and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him.
Nu 15:28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly ... to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
Ps 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions [pesha‘] from us.
Qal and Piel
Ge 6:14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch [kpr - Qal stem] it within and without with pitch.
Lev 1:4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement [kpr - Piel stem] for him.
"It is not uncommon to hear that atonement (and thus kipper) means most literally "to cover." How is that conclusion arrived at? The most frequent evidence given in support of this understanding is from Genesis 6:14. Here, however, we have to proceed with caution... In a word study of a verb, each stem must be treated as a separate word until study suggests that the meanings of each stem are directly related to one another. Then they can be grouped together. Here is a case in point for that caution. The ritual contexts use the stem referred to as the piel. Genesis 6 uses the stem called the qal (and is the only occurrence of a qal). Both use the root kpr, but one has to be careful about the possibility that there are two separate roots (homonyms that would typically be designated kpr I and kpr II). If they are homonyms, they definitely should not be treated together, and, in this case, that is precisely what we have. In a related Semitic language, Akkadian, we find that the root kpr is used for covering with tar/tarring. This is the root used in Genesis 6, as the context indicates, and is a totally different root (though a homonym) from the ritual texts that use the piel. This means that the "literal" meaning "cover" has been imported from a different root and should be discarded" (John H. Walton, "zondervanacademic.com/blog/hebrew-corner-14-atonement-kipper").
4/9 @ 3:26: For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments - 1 John 5:3
Anonymous 4/9 @ 8:02,
Jesus Christ is reported to have said: "This is my commandment: Love each other in the same way I have loved you. There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. You are my friends if you do what I command...This is my command: Love each other." (John 15:12-17)
4.11 PM "The law of Moses was not inadequate and inferior until Christ came. Like the laws of physics and chemistry, moral laws do not change. Or think of gardening, the rules never change."
Is not trimming the corners of your beard a moral law? There are 613 laws in the Law of Moses. How many of them do you break? Many are repeated in the Law of the Messiah, the New Covenant Law, but not all. Nine of the ten commandments are repeated for the church, one is missing.
The Law of Moses, the Covenant between God and Israel came to an End
Rom. 7:6 “But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.”
Heb. 8:13 “By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.” This happened with the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
Rom. 10:4 “Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.” This righteousness now would include the Gentiles.
Gal. 4:4-6 “But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship. Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, ‘Abba, Father’.”
In summary, the Old Covenant which included the Law of Moses was:
1. Between God and Israel, not God and all of mankind.
2. Conditional, obedience brought blessings; disobedience brought curses
3. A package of laws
4. a. made them aware of sin, b. set a standard of behavior, c. guided their worship, d. kept them a distinct, separate people, d. show them the impossibility of being good enough to save themselves.
5. a. could not save them, b. could not change them, c. was temporary, d. inferior to what was to come, e. could not remove sin.
The church is not under the Old Covenant. The church is not bound by the Law of Moses. The church is under the New Covenant and bound by the Law of the Messiah.
3.14 PM 4/9
Anyone who believes HWA was an apostle or prophet or he fulfilled scripture like Elijah is grossly deceived.
6:23 PM 4/9
Re scripture prophesying circumcision will be required in the Messianic era the Biblical circumcision Isaac, King David, Jesus and Paul all underwent (brit milah) was not the same or as extreme as Judaic circumcision of the 2nd century (brit periah) the latter of which has been foolishly followed by the American medical establishment since the 18th century for dubious and pseudoscientific reasons—one of which being it is supposedly an antidote to masturbation. The Biblical circumcision (brit milah) comprised only of a fraction of the excess foreskin to be removed not the entire foreskin so even if physical circumcision will be mandatory in the future Kingdom Age it definitely won’t be like modern American circumcision, which is a form of male genital mutilation and child abuse.
No one from CGI believes HWA was a apostle. This whole post is based on the LIAR Miller Jones. Look at the amount of posts MJ advertised on here.
Don't be fooled the is a weird apostate agenda going on here. Bored with attacking LCG and Weston now it's CGI.
Anonymous 4/11 @ 12:58,
I've never said that CGI endorses the notion that HWA was an apostle, but how can you be certain that "no one" within that organization believes that? You called me a liar - specifically, please identify the teaching(s) of CGI identified in this post which have been erroneously attributed by me to that group. As for my past posts here, my practice has always been to employ the language and/or teachings of the folks whom I'm critiquing - please cite any instances where I have not followed this formula.
If you are defining "apostate" as anything which contradicts the teachings of HWA, then I am guilty as charged. My "agenda" is to help folks ensnared by those teachings to emerge from that darkness and begin thinking for themselves again. As someone who was previously duped by Armstrongism (and was affiliated with both the Worldwide Church of God and Church of God International), I believe I am in a position to offer help and hope to those who find themselves in similar circumstances. Finally, I don't think one could ever get bored with underscoring the foolishness of Weston, Pack, Flurry and company - If they were all silenced today, there would be enough material to keep us busy here for years!
This all looks like an attempt by Satan to get more use out of GTA and his rebellious stooges.
Do NOT let any of them waste YOUR time or YOUR money.
I never said CGI endorses the notion that HWA was an apostle...
No comment said you did Miller Jones. For an alleged ex CGI original member, you sure don't express yourself as one. Not even a whiff.
"For an alleged ex CGI original member, you sure don't express yourself as one. Not even a whiff." - Thanks for the compliment!
“No one from CGI believes HWA was a apostle.”
You should stick to speaking for yourself 12:58. I doubt everyone in CGI would approve you speaking for them. I also doubt everyone who has ever been or will be part of CGI believes as you do. So to make the assertion you do is bonkers.
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