" If you send funds, or a great deal is sent collectively around the world, let’s be careful that we don’t grow a voice suddenly in how it should be spent…When you give, it belongs to God. It’s like tithes. You don’t come after you give and tell God and His servants how to spend it. The church has to be the judge of how to do that."
(This posting was too long for the comments section in the current/previous posting on tithing but is intended to be in conjunction with it)
"Malachi 3:10 10Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it."
================================
"Oh we're so sorry. You must have misunderstood the blessings of tithing and who opens the floodgates of heaven upon you. The Double Dog Dare You is between you and God not the church and certainly not us! Just trust and obey for there's no other way so... "
Reverend David C Pack knows how this works.
Reminders from The Clarion Call Sermon:
"We’re not talking about a special offering here…This is different…This is in faith— making the decision with you and your wife on your knees with your Bible open, asking for faith and strength, the faith to liquidate certain existing assets and give them to the Work! We are ready to trumpet now! Will you copy my wife? Will you be followers of her and me?…
If you hold those riches, I’m telling you, you trust in them! [chastising voice]…I am charged by God, reading this verse to charge all of you out there in the Work, in the church, who have assets. You have a home that’s paid off? [yelling] Go get a big chunk out of your home and put your money where your mouth is and send it here! And I’m not talking one, two, three thousand either! How about ten, twenty, thirty, fifty, a hundred thousand dollars— Go do it!!"
"If you’re not “ready to distribute,” you’re not “willing to communicate” to Headquarters about it then obviously, you don’t care what God says! You have rejected the scriptural charge given! [Says with disgust] Have the courage to admit you don’t believe that God’s government is here. You don’t believe the flow of prophecy... But what this is, is a sea change in thinking in effect in the 2000-year history of the church. It’s not a call to simply sacrifice from month to month by reducing your cable bill or turning your air conditioner off a little bit. This is liquidating assets. This is going to where you keep your earthly treasure, wherever it is and liquidating it! I have the authority to tell you to do it because I did it myself. I’ll reiterate that again. I have the moral and spiritual authority and ecclesiastical authority to tell you to do what I’ve already done!"
"Others may say that “I’m going to tap my 401K and I think I can get “X-amount.”…Now it may not be convenient to your life to give now. Some will say, “If I wait five more years until I retire I could do a little more, I could leave a little bit more for me.” Here’s what you should say: [shouting] The Work needs the funds now, not when I can maximize personal benefit and help the Work! Now there could be penalties. That’s life! It’s better that the Work gets 75% or 50% of something, as opposed to waiting 3, 5, 7, 10 years, or never getting it at all— but getting 100% of it— which could be 100% of nothing! One percent of something beats a 100% of nothing, or even getting it too late to do anything. “Well, I’ll lose to taxes.” Well, if you die, or all kinds of ways you can outlive the time left, waiting to save on taxes. But even if you die a couple of years before dying, there’s Probating the Will, and then we haven’t time to spend it. [Instructs them on giving some of it in 2007 and then more in 2008 for tax purposes.] Think big! Don’t just squander the money! Or pay penalties as you pull a 401K, or whatever, or other assets— don’t squander! Pull big triggers! Think big! A little bit of planning can help."
[Speaking of IRA’s and pension funds]
"What would you need those funds for? If you believe the things from last week. [meaning they won’t be able to use them since they will be fleeing in the near future."
[Speaking of Home Equity Lines]
"The worst that can happen, and I’m prepared for this— is that you run it all the way up, and then you have to amortize it in a term loan after 10 or 20 years. It requires some faith, but not a lot. Now you just have a second mortgage instead of an Equity Line. It’s converted into a term loan, paid over a period of 10 or 20 years, starting in 10 or 20 years. It’s what I’ve done. I’m prepared to do it. And then, frankly, we flee before most of it ever comes due. That’s just the way it is."
"There are others who don’t pay third tithe. The church is not obligated to spend third tithe caring for the brethren that we do not receive. You are required— it is a command to you— every third and sixth year in a seven-year cycle, to send third tithe in and care for your brethren…"
" I’ve talked about using a Home Equity Line that I’ve used many times. And there are ways to do this. This is not something that’s pie in the sky. Home Equity Line is for people who have a lot of equity in their home, or maybe have their home paid off. It’s a great way to advance funds to the Work. You can also leave enough in the Equity Line, which could, in affect, for years – make your payment for you – so you literally don’t feel it. For instance, you can get 20, 30, 40, 50 thousand dollars— or much more— and never feel a payment for years because you’re also making your payments out of the Equity Line. I have done that. It allowed me to give a lot and never feel it. It takes faith…"
"I have no equity essentially in my home. My Home Equity Line is basically maxed. I have a huge payment, [but it] doesn’t bother me. I’m in the middle of an appraisal. I literally have no money. I have no debts except that Home Equity Line which is colossal in size.
"I’m left with a great big, many hundreds of dollars a month, coming out of my pocket that I will be stuck with for the rest of my life— no health insurance, just remember, lost my wife’s salary same time I had to borrow every dime to bury her. I don’t want a dime…I’m not asking for any. I’ll be fine."
"Wives, you can be independent in this. You have half the worth in whatever is there in your house. I’m officially telling all of you, read verses 17, 18, 19 and focus on it. Wives you have an independent voice. Legally you have half the funds. What are you going to do about it? [Pack begins a tirade and stutters heavily] Husbands, your wife, [speaks as if quoting] “Well, my wife isn’t in the church. She doesn’t want me to do it.” You know what? [starts raising his voice] Tell her, “You don’t have a voice, woman.” She might say, “Well, I disagree” and she might fight ya, but, well then, that’s what happens…Your wife doesn’t agree that you don’t eat ham, doesn’t agree that you believe God isn’t a Trinity, doesn’t agree that you keep the Sabbath, or it could be other way around. Well, what does she agree with? Of course she’s not going to agree with your tithing, or contributing on Holy Days or anything else. Or that there’s a place of safety or that the whole world is coming to an end."
"Now some would say, “Well, I have to leave everything to my husband or my wife.” Again, my question is, “Why?” Leave enough so that they’re cared for, whether in or out of the faith, “Well I just feel that I should leave my Lutheran wife everything,” somebody might say. [Shouts] Why??? Get over that feeling!!! That’s what Satan wants you to do!!! He [Satan] would absolutely agree with your decision. God wouldn’t agree with it. “Well my wife’s in the faith. I’ll just leave it to her and trust her.” Well, wait a minute! She’d be the first to tell you to “Give it now— don’t leave anymore than what I need.” If she doesn’t say that, then she’s not in the faith, she’s just sitting here warming a seat. The wife, in the faith, will say, “Give everything we can. Leave just enough for me.”
" Now let’s talk about Wills. Naming the Restored Church of God in your Will sometimes might cause an individual to think they’re doing the right thing. That’s good, that’s wonderful. But they feel comfortable that they’ve done their part. Think about it. How much faith does that require? The Church gets everything when you die and you don’t need it anymore? Where did you sacrifice anything?? Now again, that’s a nice thought. But all you’re saying is since you’re dead you don’t need anymore financial security. No faith. Get it now— When it requires faith. When you’re dead you don’t need it. We have people who have hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of dollars— some even millions— they’re telling us they’re going to give us in Wills. We’re kind of put in a funny position when you think this through. Do we pray that people die so we can get it? We can’t do that! I’m going to get an inheritance from my uncle some day. I don’t pray that he dies— I can’t do that…Don’t put God in the position where you have to die, where He must say “I need that money” and you won’t turn loose of it now. If you named us in your Will, it could take months or years, particularly if there’s litigation before we have it. Think it through"
"We live in a strange, different, final generation—final generation. Don’t look for excuses to hold on to your treasure! We don’t have the luxury of waiting years…Today, leaving everything in your Will doesn’t work!"
"Your faith is being tested. Think about that."
We just did....
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27 comments:
earthly treasure, wherever it is and liquidating it! I have the authority to tell you to do it because I did it myself. I’ll reiterate that again. I have the moral and spiritual authority and ecclesiastical authority to tell you to do what I’ve already done!"
Dave must have forgotten that in Global he LOANED money to the church..and made sure he got it all back before he got the boot.
To the people of Pack's "church." Please leave that organization. When you hear this message it is diametrically opposed to the all of the love that God has for you. Consider these verses in light of what you hear from your "leader."
James 3:17 "But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy."
Matthew 11:28-30 (Jesus speaking) "Come to Me, all who are weary and heave-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light."
1 Corinthians 13: If I speak with the tongues of mankind and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give away all my possessions to charity, and if I surrender my body so that I may [a]glory, but do not have love, it does me no good.4 Love is patient, love is kind, it is not jealous; love does not brag, it is not arrogant. 5 It does not act disgracefully, it does not seek its own benefit; it is not provoked, does not keep an account of a wrong suffered, 6 it does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 it [b]keeps every confidence, it believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails;
Paul, when speaking about the church at Corinth collecting an offering to send to others, said (2 Corinthians 8:10-15) :0 I give my opinion in this matter, for this is to your advantage, who were the first to begin a year ago not only to do this, but also to desire to do it. 11 But now finish doing it also, so that just as there was the willingness to desire it, so there may be also the completion of it by your ability. 12 For if the willingness is present, it is acceptable according to what a person has,NOT ACCORDING TO WHAT HE DOES NOT HAVE.3 For this is NOT FOR THE RELIEF OF OTHERS AND YOUR HARDSHIP, but by way of equality—
Don't let yourself be coerced into financial ruin. Come out of Pack's church! And find a true and beautiful relationship with Jesus Christ... I beg you!
Painful to read. Swindling widows and the elderly. Darker motives overwhelm a person when they morally collapse, so I doubt that Dave's motivation is purely financial.
He deserves the most severe punishment.
Here's blather by another false apostle about Hebrews 7: "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law" (verse 12). It does not say the law was abolished. The change in priesthoods makes necessary a change in the law. What specific law? The very law this chapter is instructing New Testament Christians about the TITHING law! " ... the sons of Levi ... have a commandment to take TITHES ... according to the law ... " (verse 5). So tithing, far from being abolished, is New Testament law! But, the priesthood being changed to that of Jesus Christ-the Melchisedec priesthood restored-that tithing law is also changed of necessity, so as to become God's system for financing the ministry of Jesus Christ! Actually, the law is merely restored as it was from the beginning! How plain! - Herbert W Armstrong, April 1981 Plain Truth.
Please show me, so that I can read it, the law “as it was from the beginning”. Historical Jacob and Abraham tithing accounts are not commandments from God to tithe. Jesus Christ is now our high priest – Heb 3:1 - after the order of Melchisedec, and He is also the Church – Col 1:24. Where is the command to tithe to Jesus Christ and the Church?? Where no law is there is no transgression – Rom 4:15. There is no, and never was a, commandment to tithe to the Melchisedec Priesthood. Again: the Greek word for "change" (of the law) in verse 12 is translated "removing" (KJV) in Heb 12:27.
Dave has the moral and spiritual authority. And the ecclesiastical authority to tell anyone how to manage their money? What an egotistical idiot!
I left WCG more than 25 years ago. My regret is it took me too long to walk away. I have seen how tithe money was wasted and spent. I wouldn’t give Dave Pack one red cent of my money. Since leaving these cults, I have worked hard to build up a decent retirement. My home is paid for. Sorry Dave, it’s going to my family when I die. I understand that people feel trapped and are afraid of losing their salvation if they walked away from Dave.
Oh how I wish people in any of these ACOGs could understand, their church does not control their salvation. Sitting in a rented hall listening to these rehashed sermons doesn’t earn them salvation. Walk away, take a deep breath. Learn to Live again.
Jim-AZ
Well do I remember when I first heard Dave delivering this deluded diatribe.
I can't recall which was my "favorite" part - Dave praising HWA's "Loma Letter" or not to put RCG in your will, because we can't wait for you to die and legalities take too long. And then there were the arguments for households with the non-RCG spouse, and then...
Doesn't Pack have "faith enough" that God could provide a gold coin in a fish's mouth in one of his ponds if it was needed??
What might Dave Pack do with all of that mammon? It's either God or mammon. Mammon just might be Dave's god, the one he puts so much focus of his mind on.
Dave wrote: "...Have the courage to admit you don’t believe that God’s government is here...."
Of course, God's govt isn't there with Dave. It appears that Dave may have Satan's govt as a counterfeit for God's government. Dave's govt may be an imitation of God's Govt and designed to deceive us.
Again, what might Dave do with all of that mammon? Dave does, without doubt, lord it over his followers.
How about this suggestion?
Ezekiel 34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe [be] to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: [but] ye feed not the flock.
Dave is all about SELF, feeding himSELF, clothing himSELF, which reminds me of the fairy tale, aka satanic tale, about the Emperor's new clothes.
Dave, you're supposed to feed the flock: not fleece them, steal their money to feed and clothe SELF!
Lording it over others is not part of God's Government.
What did the chief apostle, Peter, tell the elders?
1 Peter 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight [thereof], not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over [God’s] heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
Peter considered himself an elder among elders to guide others by example: not lord it over others.
Is God's government somewhere other than with Dave Pack, or for that matter the likes of other former wcg hirelings, who left their ministerial credentials behind in Pasadena when they fled that organization: Flurry, Kubik, Weston, Winnail (where is Doug, lately?), Franks, Weinland?
Time will tell...as the scattering and splintering continues...
John
“If you hold those riches, I’m telling you, you trust in them!” -- Dave Pack
Well, FAR BETTER to trust in your riches than to trust in Dave Pack. Your riches are very useful and can really help you. Dave Pack is worth much less than nothing and can only harm you and try to steal your riches, which he covets and trusts in. Dave Pack can never be trusted.
Trusting in your riches might or might not work out well.
Trusting David Pack will NEVER work out well.
Wowsers! Pack has gone full Eric Hoffer fanatic! Hoffer said that a fanatical mass movement plays havoc with the lives of its followers. Well, here's living proof of that!
“A fool and his money are soon parted.”
Giving money to Satan's false prophets like Gerald Flurry and David Pack is much worse than merely being a fool who gets soon parted from his money.
You actually become the enabling accomplice of these wicked frauds and are helping them to spread their outrageous lies and to seriously harm other people.
Financially supporting false prophets is not a Biblical command. Rather, Jesus said to beware of false prophets. He warned that many false prophets would come and would deceive many people. Thousands of sleepy WCG people thought that this warning did not apply to them and their shameful idols like Flurry and Pack.
According to the county assessors office, he's accumulated $12M in assets, he never once truly believed that Christ was coming soon, he saw a perfect way to swindle people out of whatever they needed for the later years and laughed all the way to the bank.
In a community property state, the only way to take one's half out of a marriage is to either file divorce or legal separation, the only difference in the eyes of the law is that in legal separation, one can not remarry and in divorce, one can. This entire way of thinking is why I now have an ex-husband. Totally destroyed our relationship.
" Have the courage to admit you don't believe God's government is here "
When I read that line I was stunned. It's a kind of double demonic dare. As if he is telling the truth in a twisted way. I hope many, even though they are deep down the rabbit hole, have the courage to realize Pack's ideas are far from God's. The quality of courage is rarely mentioned by the ministry they couldn't do much wrong if the membership was using courage.
“When you give, it belongs to God.” -- Dave Pack
When you give to the Restored Cult, it belongs to Dave, Dave, and nobody else but Dave.
“Have the courage to admit you don’t believe that God’s government is here.” -- Dave Pack
Okay, Dave. I admit that I don't believe that God's government is there.
Are you happy now?
Hmm, didn't think so.
Tonto wrote a gold coin in a fish's mouth in one of his ponds
Didn't all his fish die? Maybe when he checked them for gold coins. He should invest in golden egg laying geese.
Just reading that crap made me feel sick.
From "Old Neo's Book of Practical Millerites", p. 562.
Millerites and Their Possessions as the Day Approached:
"Many "Millerites" sold all their possessions to prepare for the day when Christ would return to earth, gather them up to heaven, and purify the rest of the world in an all-consuming fire. As the date approached, a great comet blazed across the Massachusetts sky, and the number of believers grew. On October 22nd, the Millerites donned white robes and climbed mountains or trees to speed their ascension into heaven. When the prophecy failed, most abandoned Miller's apocalyptical teachings and returned to their original churches."
"As the year of the expected apocalypse neared, believers in the prophecy began to give away their belongings, abandon their crops, and sell their land. In the town of Harvard, one man sold his cows at great sacrifice because there would be no one to care for them when he was "gone up." Women in the Worcester area cut off their hair, removed the ruffles from their dresses, threw or gave away their jewelry, and, in some cases, everything they owned. Others broke up all their furniture declaring that they would no longer have use for tables or chairs or beds. Wanting to be suitably attired for heaven, Millerites made long white garments for themselves that they called their "ascension robes.""
"According to one story, a man accosted Ralph Waldo Emerson and the Reverend Theodore Parker on a Concord road and excitedly asked if they realized that the world was going to end that day. "Mr. Parker said: 'It does not concern me, for I live in Boston.' And Mr. Emerson said: 'The end of the world does not affect me; I can get along without it.'""
"The vast majority of Millerites were devastated, and some impoverished, by the failure of the prophecy. "
(Quotations cited from article titled "October 22, 1844: Millerites Await End of the World.")
What goeth around, cometh around . . .
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David C. Pack's Great Big BAIT & SWITCH Trick
Early Restored Church members went with Dave Pack because he originally said that he was going to reprint all the old Worldwide Church of God literature from around the time that Herbert W. Armstrong died in 1986.
Then the WCG-PCG court case results spooked Dave Pack, so he decided to rewrite the old WCG literature in his own words. He actually seemed to be doing that for a while. Interestingly, he assured everyone that Satan would not have him go to that much trouble just so he could go bad in the end.
Then Dave Pack went totally bad and started to make up all sorts of outrageous nonsense of his own and change the old WCG teachings. After so much preaching about “precision of doctrine,” and criticizing other so-called COG leaders for making all sorts of doctrinal changes, and accusing other ministers of “vomiting” on their listeners, Dave Pack became totally unstable too and went into one of the worst fits of uncontrollable vomiting on his listeners that anyone had ever seen. He came up with hours and hours of evil noise containing dozens and dozens of so-called “proofs” that never really proved anything.
Earlier RCG members got totally blindsided by this great big Bait & Switch trick of Dave Pack's.
The earlier RCG members had their reasons for going with Dave Pack and his RCG. Currently, there is no good reason at all to go with Satan's false prophet klepto-Dave Pack-of-lies and his Restored Cash Grab cult.
The only real reason that some people are still with Dave Pack and his RCG cult is that they made the fatal mistake of handing over everything they had to Dave Pack when he “restored” his “common” theft doctrine, and now it is psychologically very difficult to admit that it was all a satanic fraud and that they got taken for everything they ever had. It is simply too hard to admit, no matter how many wrong prophetic date guesses Dave Pack comes up with to string them along.
Thanks for your comment 7:41. Pack isn't the first to use Bait and switch tactics nor the only or last.
Excellent comment. Dave's a master deceiver. I read that he spent four years re-writing the old WWCG literature.
Pack also after warning the LCG congregants when he was there what to look for in him if he goes off his rocker. But of course, then promised not to worry and that he'd not be going anywhere. Then he started his own church. Pack telegraphs what's next by telling you that won't be next.
All churches are institutions started by human-beings. When you give to any church you are giving to humans not God! I am an atheist but even from a Christian perspective isn't your relationship to God a personal relationship? Do you need a human institution to have a relationship with God? Do you need a paid minister to tell you how to live your life or a nice comfortable building to worship your God. Don't you do that by just living a good life and helping others do the same?
What kind of god needs money?
Question: What kind of god needs money?
Answer: A human that thinks he is a god.
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