A reader here commented on Doug Winnail's Peacemaker post about how Living Church of God expects those soon to be ordained to cut ties with friends who are members and instead build friendships with those already ordained. Talk about elitism! Talk about being peacemakers! Sheesh!
Dr. D. Winnail is one of the main Ministers who tells people before they become ordained they have to cut ties with friends who are members and rather build friendships with those who are ordained. He is not the only one who teaches this as it is a "Normal Routine" to tell anyone who is considered for an ordained leader position.
I have seen many friendships just end all of a sudden and the ones who are not ordained are left wondering what happened. I thought it was crazy and something that was NOT Biblical at all and it certainly does not promote unity.
I was told by not only family who were being ordained but also close friends who were about to be ordained that they had to distance themselves from us in order to be ordained. After about another 10 years of dealing with practically being ignored at the Feast because we are not of the "Elite ordained" so they could not fellowship with us...HA that was my own family and of course our once very close friends that could not have time for us until maybe after the Feast. Mr. Weston also told our "very Close friends" (who turned out to not be real friends) to "SEEK OUT and DESTROY ANYONE who is considered a cancer to the Ministry and church." That hurt us deeply and our children. So we have left that because the fruits are not good. There are good people in that Organization but the majority of the leadership that we have met (remember we have family that are in the Ministry ) do not have good fruits. I have heard that Atlanta is almost as bad as HQ too.
40 comments:
This is absolutely disgusting!
LCG claims it is not a cult and they do this kind of crap?
These are the same people who claim to have restored first-century Christianity! If this is first-century Christianity then to hell with it all! What disgusting behavior! No wonder Jesus is not part of LCG. Jesus weeps!
It's way over board. Disposing of friends as if they are dirty rags is heartless.
Since when did real friendships exist within ACOG ? It would be a long lesson in futility and heartache to think real friendships existed within the COG culture.
AC grads perceived themselves as a collective part of the spiritual HEAD of WCG. That being obviously anti Jesus Christ and completely unbiblical never stopped them one jot.
As the full WCG AC experience doesn't exist anymore, then the newly ordained have no time and distance to be able to distance themselves diplomatically. Therefore the ruthless cruelty of dumping friends overnight has to be achieved to please the ancient catapillars sat on their power mushrooms.
I knew a guy from the Buffalo, NY WCG congregation who said that in the last session of counseling for marriage, the minister told him and his fiancée that once they were married, they should stop socializing with their single friends in the church. The rationale was that many of the local singles were single because they were unstable. This was in the mid '90s, so it was after the reign of Pack.
Has anyone else heard this?
I didn't consult the ministry when I married a non-COGess.
Why is this so shocking to some? This is nothing new. It's been going on for years in the WCG, as well as UCG and COGWA.
They have a name claiming that they are alive (Living), but they are DEAD. Rotten fruit always leads to death. Did not Yahshua say that one part of the body is just as good as another part?
These ministries act like the degenerate Pharisees who did the same things that they do today. Compare them:
1. They like/insist that you call them Rabbi/Father/Minster/Pastor rather than their name
2. They love the chief seats at the feast - they never sit amongst the brethren
3. Their parties/socials/etc are only for ministers - everyone else is a nobody
4. They insist that they are a special class and must have the best
And on and on it goes.
Its sort of like the military . Officers and enlisted men have to eat seperately and dont socialize much either.
In business, guys in management are careful about social interaction with guys on the production line, or on the dock.
Its the way things are in hierarchies, and is necessary in order to maintain control and enforcement. Question to ask is, whether or not such a structure is the way a Christian church should be.
hmm, more of that "government" teaching....
if your organization teaches that the Church is the government of God you should leave it...
minister means servant, not ruler....
It is starting to look as if many of the hard core worldwide spin offs such as PCG, LCG and others are going into a terminal dive. Reminds one of the way the Nazi's knew the game was up after 1944 but many became more radical and they executed more of their own than in the previous 11 years.
"Dr. D. Winnail is one of the main Ministers who tells people before they become ordained they have to cut ties with friends who are members and rather build friendships with those who are ordained. He is not the only one who teaches this as it is a "Normal Routine" to tell anyone who is considered for an ordained leader position."
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Is this so? I'd like more confirmation and sources of such a thing that Doug says promotes this. I find this hard to believe as something all ordained in Living would know about and not push back on Doug. This makes no sense to promote.
My minister in the wcg back in the 80’s said this from the pulpit.
Tonto is dead on! The church pushes a family dynamic in regards to the Godhead and human marriage but conducts itself like the military. That's how this "world" operates. In a true family dynamic (as the church SHOULD BE), our differences are a matter of FUNCTION--not STATUS (see Romans 12:3-8, 1 Corinthians 12:4-29)!
Fragments of memory. Back in the Seventies I heard an female AC student talking to another female AC student about her boyfriend who was a ministerial assistant out in the field. I don't remember if he was older and had graduated ahead of her or if he was on a senior field trip. She stated that he felt very lonely and isolated because he was told not to fraternize with church members. And this was because he had been told that if church members came to regard him as a friend they would no longer do what he told them to do.
At that time, being a card-carrying Armstrongist, that made sense to me because ministers watched over our salvation. Shepards watching protectively over the sheep. And anything that promoted the efficacy of that relationship was valid. I supplied that view. The female student did not mention anything about that. In retrospect I think it had to do with cultivating obedience for purposes of local church resource management and tithing.
I was already aware of this aloofness from my local church area. The head minister in our area was the son of a prominent Pasadena guy - I don't remember his rank. Our minister, the son, and his family did not attend church socials. Interaction with the masses was handled by lesser ordained minions. His reason was that he needed to spend time with his family - this from a guy who worked out of his home.
It becomes ludicrous and glaring when you see lower ranking people trying to do the same thing that the upper ranks do. Deacons and their wives who maintain an aloofness and who treat you as if they are your manager and you are their employee. Eventally the "helpers of their joy" movement started but you can't turn the Titanic on a dime. In my opinion, that movement never got traction. Natural proclivities prevailed.
Tonto is right. This pecking order stuff goes on in the world. But should the ministers in "God's church" be imitators of the world? What I can say is that I never had an Armstrongist minister who displayed any friendliness towards me. Or who evinced any concern about me. Or who was even interested in knowing a little about me. Now I think maybe that was a good thing, considering.
******* Click on my icon for Disclaimer
It Comes from the top down; it is how Global was run and continued when LCG started. Dr. Winnail is the Church Administration Director. He oversees the Ministry and New Hiring's as well as Ordination. Believe what you want but it is not just him and he gets his marching orders and has been done since I was in the church in Global and LCG. The comment above that said this is nothing new they are right it isn't new this is old stuff been going on for decades.
Really?....I can't find any proof of this. I met Dr. W a few years ago. I was not part of LCG, but he was warm and open and approachable to me.
I can assure you that this is true. The ministry is approachable and nice however become a member and after about 5 to 6 years you will start to see things. I have been in the organization for almost 30 years and have seen this first hand. I have many in my family who are ordained and can confirm that this is indeed true. This is one reason we never wanted to be ordained to any position seeing family members break off their best friendships just because the HQ Leadership told them that is the way it has to be.
Anonymous said...
Really?....I can't find any proof of this. I met Dr. W a few years ago. I was not part of LCG, but he was warm and open and approachable to me.
July 17, 2021 at 7:39 AM
It's called "phony". You must be a newby, your head buried deep in the sand, you're in denial' or you're a bachelor! Maybe all four.
Exactly
All cults have an outer face to lure in the unsuspecting. Once a member, the mask drops off and the inner face is revealed. Welcome to the Stalin ministry.
Yes. I was told this when I asked an LCG minister for help dealing with an abusive spouse. One of their many complaints about me was that I had contact with single friends due to them seeing an unsolicited contact update. Never mind that they kept an active relationship with someone they had previously dated. Of course, I got in trouble and they didn’t. The ministry seems to always side with the abuser.
I don't know that ordained ministers cutting off their unordained friends is "official" church policy, but I do know that it has been at least an unofficial expectation and voiced by at least some among the ministry, including ministers' wives. Several years ago I overheard a minister's wife tell a new ministerial trainee's wife that their close friendships should be with other ministers and their wives, rather than people within the congregation.
Within the strict hierarchical system set up by these groups, maintaining social structure and pecking order is vital, and in order to do that a certain separation between those considered "clergy" and those considered "laity" must be maintained. You can't maintain that separation and structure if the "clergy" is rubbing elbows too much with the "laity" of the group.
While a minister might be friendly on the surface, the idea of him being a true friend and confidant isn't really the image that is encouraged. Instead the minister is to be seen as the authority figure and the guy who is "in charge" of the congregation, and nurturing close friendships with others who are not part of the hierarchy might undermine that.
The minister or his wife could also be seen as giving preferential treatment to those they are friends with as opposed to others within the congregation, while the people who are seen spending too much time with the minister or his wife on a social basis are viewed as sycophants or suck-ups, trying to garner preferential treatment. This happens in congregations as well, because no matter what the unwritten expectation is, most people can't maintain complete separation from others within the congregation. It is also human nature to be drawn more to some people than others, and certain personalities are more compatible at times, making it easier to spend more time with and work more closely with those you are more compatible with, or who are more likely to agree with your point of view. The individual minister's ego or craving for praise also tends to contribute to the problem.
I agree that while lip service is paid to the notion that the church is a family, it tends to be run more like the military or a corporation, or some combination of the two, at least in the COGs I am most familiar with. I also agree that differences in service and responsibility within the congregation should be more one of function than status, but this isn't going to happen as long as the structure of the system remains. We can complain about favoritism, corruption, etc. and even if we managed to get rid of all the corrupt people we rail against, placing others within the same system sooner or later would lead once again to the same issue. Everyone thinks they can go out and build a better wheel, but as long as you are using the same pattern as the previous builder, your wheel is going to end up looking and functioning much the same as the previous model.
Concerned Sister
It has been about a year since COGA left LCG. It is my observation that this has crushed LCG's spirit. All the people that left took their enthusiasm, faith, courage, and strength with them, leaving LCG hollow and fading, with little hope of ever getting it back. Oh, the structure is still there, but the fizz is out of the bottle (and it wasn't all that fizzy to begin with). On the other hand, COGA has missed the opportunity to shed some of the wrong practices and philosophies of LCG, which could doom it to stagnancy.
Well if anyone should know about all the shenanigans of Ministry do's and don't it would be you Concerned Sister. Beware of letting too much mystic out of the can now.
Laity are far more savvy than the ministry give them credit. I always recall a Ministers wife who loves to mutter to her cronies about laity being "such weirdo's" whilst the "weirdo's" can hear her every insult. Oh the joy's of the unconverted lording it over converted Christian laity. It shall not be so in the Kingdom of God.
Anonymous at 12:37 AM said...“It's way over board. Disposing of friends as if they are dirty rags is heartless.
Unfortunately, many so-called “friends” in the so-called COGs really are dirty rotten rags. What some of these so-called “friends” will do to you is heartless.
LCG Expositor at 9:59 PM said...“It has been about a year since COGA left LCG. It is my observation that this has crushed LCG's spirit. All the people that left took their enthusiasm, faith, courage, and strength with them, leaving LCG hollow and fading, with little hope of ever getting it back. Oh, the structure is still there, but the fizz is out of the bottle (and it wasn't all that fizzy to begin with). On the other hand, COGA has missed the opportunity to shed some of the wrong practices and philosophies of LCG, which could doom it to stagnancy.”
So, the Dying Church of Rod loses what little fizz it had. How is it going to “shake the world” without any fizz? Maybe Rod's cult needs to be shaken up to get some fizz back.
Yes, well, I have experienced rude and heartless members, especially from the UCG, they are the opposite of how they claim to be in their articles and booklets and, in addition to their unloving attitude, their group had some divisions that they had created some splinter groups like Cogwa because of it. people left over division and being divided is the opposite of being united, and since many of its members are family members, many of them were raised to believe in it. UCG has splinter groups like David Hulmes group and then In late 2010, UCG split again, almost down the middle, with those departing forming the Church of God, A Worldwide Association (COGwa). Whatever happened to let there be no divisions among you?
I can’t believe I waste so much time here. Lipstick on a pig… running out of lipstick. lol
Thank you. All of you. I feel vaccinated. :)
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Yes, well, I have experienced rude and heartless members, especially from the UCG, they are the opposite of how they claim to be in their articles and booklets and, in addition to their unloving attitude, their group had some divisions that they had created some splinter groups like Cogwa because of it. people left over division and being divided is the opposite of being united, and since many of its members are family members, many of them were raised to believe in it. UCG has splinter groups like David Hulmes group and then In late 2010, UCG split again, almost down the middle, with those departing forming the Church of God, A Worldwide Association (COGwa). Whatever happened to let there be no divisions among you?
July 18, 2021 at 1:03 PM
COGWA was another planned coup just like UCG. Franks didn't like it because he couldn't be the big boss and his buddies the little bosses so they made up a bunch of lies about UCG was going to do away with the sabbath and other garbage, and half the duped loyal franks followers left UCG. I asked one of them why he left. He said because they are liars in UCG. I asked him what did they lie about. He didn't give me an answer.
One class of laity the ministry liked to hob knob with was the "wealthy"--or those who at least had the appearance of wealth and success. It was usually a free pass to an elder or deaconship (the fraternity)!
Spiritual inbreeding and indoctrination from the AC and WCG years have seemingly produced a limited genetic pool in the cogs, no matter what their differences, as each claims either directly or by inference to be the only true cog.
cogwa is the epitome of the cogs masquerading as sheep in wolves clothing. While the hypocrisy and self-righteousness of many cog leaders are blatantly apparent, cogwa lies low in a sinister way. Judgmental and condemning attitudes from the self-righteous hirelings are as rampant in cogwa as in other cogs, but just more carefully concealed. cogwa is a splinter founded on lies and slander more than anything biblical, harshly ruled by the cronyism, and for the financial support of, the good ole boy's country clubbers. It is a whited sepulcher to beware of.
Last weekend, for instance, the elite of cogwa gathered at the swanky, expensive and exclusive Cowboys Club (owned by Jerry Jones, the owner of the Dallas Cowboys) for a secret meeting. Cameras and photos were prohibited. How many cogwa members were invited? How many even knew of this secret meeting? Why was the meeting not held in the conference room of their under-utilized new office country club north of Dallas?
^^^^ucg ministry^^^^
The Cogs are off kilter. They split while touting unity. They call other Christians fake while touting unity. They disrupt families while touting unity and the importance of family. They have activities, activities, activities at feast of tabernacles and winter weekends that separate families all while touting unity.
Have the cogs ever helped a marriage?
Have they ever helped someone through a crisis of faith?
How can they ever talk unity when they are so skilled in separating?
I'm SO glad I stayed a sheep and not a stuck up Sheppard that only leads sheep towards the cliff's edge just like lemmings.
I saw how baptized members treated those not baptized and decided it was not for me, besides u have to pay an extra 10% of your money that does not get spent like it should alotta times every 3 years.. .
I was on the receiving end of that back in 89 and it sucked.
As for cliques that's why I haven't had a real friend in oklahoma since I moved from texas in 1984, had a few bullies that liked my stuff but did not really give a rat's skid plate (sry transformers beast wars reference) about me, Oh well their loss.
I hope y'all have a good week :)
True 6:16 AM. Very true.
Disgruntled ministry part 2. ^^^^^^ who except ministry would know this?
Love this comment 5:38.
They talk about God whilst their hearts are far from him. They nit pick members whilst living dreadfully sinful lives right in the face of God. Even the lilly liberals moan others don't preach Jesus, whilst they don't teach about Jesus either. Been going on since time began. Modern day priests the exact same as the priests in Jeremiah's time.
Anonymous at 8:51 AM said...“Last weekend, for instance, the elite of cogwa gathered at the swanky, expensive and exclusive Cowboys Club (owned by Jerry Jones, the owner of the Dallas Cowboys) for a secret meeting.”
So the leaders of COGWA allegedly went to a fancy restaurant.
Tell us more. Tell us more. Tell us more.
Or is this all there is to report?
Why would they spend tithes there? I suspect it was a corporate business expense costing hundreds of dollars or more. Shepherd perks I suppose.
hey Sweetblood777 of July 17, 2021 at 4:44 AM:
there is something else that makes the nasty COG leaders just like the Pharisees Jesus rebuked.
Both but law burdens on the people that are not required by God.
This story is 100% *TRUE* and *ACCURATE*!! SCOTT WINNAIL *HIMSELF*, RELATED THIS SAME STORY TO ME PERSONALLY!!! He learned it from his sick father. You should have asked YOURSELF; “WHERE did THAT THOUGHT come from”?These Cult Leaders are DELUSIONAL, SELF DECEIVED MORONS!! They operate on the level of the GESTAPO!! It’s OK Scotty boy, we KNOW!! You can only carry out your DELUSION for a short time!! People will wake up eventually!! Oh wait, some of us ALREADY HAVE!! The joke is on YOU!! YOU will one day have to answer to the Eternal and He is *NOT* A RESPECTER OF PERSONS!! One day the Jig with be up and THEN what will you do??? You need to pull you head OUT of your ASS!! If you are reading this you KNOW FULL WELL IT IS TRUE!! You can only be friends with other “MINISTERS”!!! YOU SAID IT BECAUSE I WAS THERE!!
I TOTALLY CONCUR WITH ANONYMOUS as to the FACT that Scott Winnail is PHONEY!! His phoney wife watches JOEL OSTEEN sermons on television!! TRUE story!!
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