Herbert Armstrong was too embarrassed to talk about Jesus when he met with world leaders so he talked about a "strong hand from someplace".
Compare Herb to Alice Cooper and what he believes.
Then compare him to the crap of Bob Thiel, Dave Pack, and Gerald Flurry say. All of these guys are embarrassed by the dude they claim to follow and rarely talk about him.
Alice Copper knows otherwise.
40 comments:
Who would have known? What a wake-up call. Don't judge another on their appearance!
Alice Cooper always has interesting things to say. The stage show was just an act.
It shows their true colors. I remember Bill Cowan having an anti rock music sermon where he spoke several untruths about Alice Cooper & Ted Nugent. HWA was a con artist and false apostle. Flurry is just as bad if not worse because he goes out of his way to diminish the role of Christ and exalt himself. The ONLY reason any of these world leaders gave HWA the time of day was because of the $$$. He went out of his way to omit Christ from the conversation. "Some unseen hand from someplace" does not seem the same message that cost Peter & Paul their lives.
My cousin, Dave Mustaine of Megadeth, is also a committed Christian.
I do not believe that in Armstrongist theology there is an orchestrated attempt to downplay Jesus. But I think there is an uneasiness in Armstrongism with where Jesus fits in the equation of salvation. If you build a structure of salvation based predominantly on the Law of Moses and Moses is the great spiritual hero, Jesus becomes kind of an adjunct. And soon you wonder why the adjunct is really even there. So you end up with a religion that is essentially Mosaic and only nominally about Jesus.
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In all fairness, the context is different. Alice Cooper is an old, rich man. He can afford to offend people with his beliefs. Herbs "strong hand from someplace" is him following diplomatic protocol of not pushing religion. His listeners understood the code word he was using.
And , ...To think that the initials A-C actually stood for Alice Cooper!
I've known this for some time. Alice (Vince) married Sheryl Goddard, the daughter of one of my coworker's pastor when I lived in the Pasadena area. My friend Mike had actually gone to the wedding. When this happened, I wondered how that marriage would ever last. There were some ups and downs. I later dated a nurse who had attended to Alice when he nearly died of an overdose. If you listen to Alice's nightly radio program on your local classic rock radio station, you realize that he has known and worked with many many of the superstars of the rock world throughout his career, is a survivor, and has many anecdotes to share as he plays their music. He doesn't so much preach during his program, but his stories are somewhat of a voice of reason and moderation, and are often very amusing.
I've been to a lot of concerts over my post-WCG lifetime, and have seen Alice perform live. His act definitely reflects his tastes for the theatric and macabre, and he has always been backed up by incredible musicians. Back in the seventies, two guitarists, Steve Hunter and Dick Wagner were responsible for coming up with the arrangements which updated Lou Reed's classic works from his days with the Velvet Underground. They played on his "Rock n Roll Animal" album, and my brothers and my friends and I went to the Lou Reed concert which supported that album at the Santa Monica Civic Auditorium. It was was just incredible. Some time later, Steve Hunter and Dick Wagner became part of Alice's band, I believe at the time of Alice's "Welcome to my Nightmare" album. Again, incredible musicianship. We often listened to that and other of Alice's albums as we partied with various friends who had left and were leaving the old WCG during the Great Disappointment era. Alice's music was part of our soundtrack for that very exciting time in our lives, a time of revival from the cult, and discovery of new answers and solutions which nicely set us up for the rest of our lives.
Alice is an avid golfer, and golfed regularly with his buddy Glen Campbell. He also was responsible for the restoration and subsequent maintenance of the Hollywood sign. Some of the letters had collapsed during the 1970s, and nobody had seemed to care. The sign is a landmark which can be seen from all over Los Angeles. We can thank Alice for raising the money to save and preserve it. Alice has been very influential with his theatric approach to rock n roll. You can see his influences in Michael Jackson's "Thriller". Both Alice and Michael used Vincent Price's talents in their work.
Alice is proof that one can believe in and have faith in Jesus Christ and have a successful and lasting career in rock music. I've been amazed at his example because others in the past have been panned for their faith. Bob Dylan was universally booed during his Christain period, and Mark Farner formerly of Grand Funk has had a rough time. Richie Furay of Buffalo Springfield, Poco, and the Souther Hillman Furay Band actually quit the rock music life for decades as he pastored a Calvary church in Colorado. He has occasionally made select appearances with Stephen Stills and Neil Young to perform Buffalo Springfield classics. There is footage on You Tube of their work at the Bridge School which was started by Neil's wife Pegi, and some footage of the three rehearsing as they attempted to put together a new album.
There is nothing inherently wrong with rock music. This is another area where HWA allowed his ignorant prejudices to come into his theology. It can be used for good purposes, neutral purposes, or bad purposes. The goodness or badness is in the appllication.
Dave is a rather fascinating guy in his own right.
I really am amazed at the ways and means people here bring up explanations of how to excuse their carnal ways, and then they claim those ways are actually “christian.”
Especially if they can get their ill informed dig at HWA, and any person associated with a splinter group coming from the original RCG/WCG ERA.
What is such a big deal over cogs questioning hard rock music? Or, some classical music? WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL? It frankly a nothing burger.
Why don’t you gripe about the Pentecostals? No movies, no drinking, no dancing, no rock and roll music, etc., etc. The reason ? That doesn’t satisfy the total biased prejudice here by too many.
Why don’t you know HWA BOUGHT his way into the presence of world leaders? Oh, really? And this proves what? Nothing! Absolutely nothing, except satisfying the small minded anger because they didn’t grow themselves, and need to blame “old chubby cheeks Armstrong” for their total lack of self-control.
Seems none here have a clue of how to personally witness to the people of non-christian nations. I challenge any one on this list to do what HWA ACTUALLY DID. Oh, sorry, that’s impossible.
What did he do? Which none of you here can seem to figure out. He got to the leaders by impressing them with what impresses the human mind, money, appearance, status, etc. Which no one here has.
Then he told them about the “hand from somewhere” and, what Ambassador was about, and more. BUT!!!!!!!!!! did he tell them about “Jesus”????? The ill informed here say no. That’s a lie.
How do I know? Well, after the meeting with the leaders, they suggested holding a meeting for others in their nation. Then, what happened? I bet none, or virtually none of you here know! Well, he vociferously preached to them, and if you’re not lazy, you can find an example on Youtube, proving the your lie wrong.
Then, HWA followed up to show real Believer’s concern and love by building various small projects for the people of each nation. Nothing overwhelming, but things to help the memory.
Why are the splinter groups on tv and radio today so dull? Two main reasons. 1. They are reading scripts today, and not preaching. Required in order not to be kicked off the station. HWA Didn’t have that restriction. 2. We are now at the 4th, 5th, 7th, generation of members who have lost the original inspiration and enthusiasm of the 1st and 2nd generation. Same happened to the original ekklesia.
Plus, what seems to not be grasped by anyone here who is a biased critic. It’s prophetic. Oh no, not that, he can’t mean all those scriptures showing that are actually correct. NO that can’t be cause that’d mean the bible is correct after all.
Besides that, the Creator NEVER uses scoundrels, liars, killers, etc. to do His will, and works. Why, any bible writer who says that doesn’t know what he is talking about, even if he wasn’t there. We weren’t there, so WE know better.
Thankfully, this whole site, and others like it, need to be thanked by all the non critics who visit. Why? Because they perfectly fit the prophetic descriptions of this day, proving the bible true, and that the Creator does exist! There is no way to disprove this, except with lies, deception, and denying the book is reliable, all while demonstrating by their conduct the opposite is true. Thank you, you all are doing an excellent job proving the bible true, and that there is an Elohim in charge. Try not doing your criticisms and see how long you can last. The mind of criticism has been permanently implanted and only a miracle can change it now.
I don't know who Alice Cooper is.
Phinnpoy, your cousin is Dave Mustaine? Cool. š¤ I don't know much about him but I love Megadeth. And one of my favorite songs by Megadeth, Symphony of Destruction, ends with the line "a peaceful man stands tall."
Any WCG purple hymnal songs have an uplifting line like that? Dwight Armstrong must have left it for heavy metal bands to do
Anonymous 7:51,
Do you mean to suggest that HWA was merely following the diplomatic protocol that Paul used when he was in the presence of this world's elite?
*spits coffee* Dave Mustaine is your cousin???? Awesome
5.53 PM
Miller Jones, we both know that Paul's world was very different to our own. Christianity was a new rather than a major established religion. Like HWA, the Catholic pope uses secular terms to pushing his theological barrow rather than quoting the bible.
4.24 PM
"..the Creator never uses scoundrels, liars, killers, etc, to do His will and works."
Daniel 4:7 "the Most High rules in the kingdom of men .. and sets up over it the basest of men."
In Revelation 17, it's God who puts in the hearts of the ten European leaders to give their power to the beast leader.
Ever heard of the wicked Balaam who God inspired to give accurate prophecies?
You moralize to us, yet you can't be studying your bible. You must be one of those who only read Herbs and ACOG literature and nothing more.
Only ones of a certain age make a big fuss over listening to hard Rock music. Hardly nobody cares but they like to think they are irritating others... makes them feel good.. ironically it's usually the ones who behaved like music nazis over how they listen to classical music. When in reality they were lying all along.
Who cares? Nobody. Weirdos.
I have never heard a COG leader, such as Winnail, Weston, Pack, of Flurry ever speak about Jesus in the personal, appreciative, loving way Alice Cooper did.
Yet, I've heard COG ministers malign Alice Cooper.
Do you have a verifiable source for HWA saying a "strong hand from someplace"? I've only heard it 3rd-hand.
Bob Petry (4:24)
I don't think you attempt at inversion is going to play. Let me revert your inversion. And also mention the Elephant in the Room. Many people have left Armstrongism and become Christians. I don't know anybody who is keeping count, but there are many people that God sifted out of Armstrongism and into Christianity - this includes the rise of GCI. I know this from what happened to two local WCG congregations in the post-1995 period.
The Elephant: the residual people who now populate Splinterdom are those people who do not respond to the Christian Gospel through means employed thus far. That may sound vague but I am not a judge of spiritual conditions nor do I have the ability to read the future. So let me put matters in simple terms so as not to be misunderstood by those whose viewpoint has been excessively influenced by Armstrongism. Christianity is The Way. Armstrongism is not. Christianity and Armstrongism are two very different belief systems. Christianity is based on the message of Jesus Christ and Armstrongism is based on the views of HWA.
A case in point. Starting at the top. Armstrongism is a polytheistic religion. God the Father and Christ are two separate beings. HWA in his magnum opus MOA, states on pages 42-43 that God and Jesus are two separate persons united in a family relationship. This is called bitheism and is a subset of polytheism which is found only in pagan religions. HWA makes much of the fact that the term "Trinity" does not occur in scripture (MOA, page 40). But, to be fair, "bitheism" - which describes Armstrongism - also does not occur in scripture. Herbert just never used the term bitheism - he only describes it - a little verbal sleight of hand that played well with his base. So what does terminology prove?
You can get down in the weeds and talk about HWA's astute witness to the nations but you have to realize at some point that you do not have the foundation. You do not have a cohesive, documented and credible Doctrine of God. Without that, the rest is just re-arranging chairs on the deck of the Titanic.
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Anonymous 1/2 @ 12:42,
Let me make sure I understand your point - the world has changed since Paul's day, so the gospel has to be presented in a modern diplomatic construct? Are you suggesting the diplomatic mold of Donald Trump's or Joe Biden's administration? I know some of the folks who comment here would say that Trump's administration "told it like it was?"
It may be difficult for some to realize this today, but rock music for many of us WAS our culture at one time, and it was such a common denominator that if you didn't listen to it and occasionally quote from it, you were considered to be pretty much out of it. That didn't bother the cloistered ones who delighted in separating themselves from all but church members, but most of us had to work, which meant that in order to be taken seriously as a human being, you had to be able to relate to the others surrounding you, as opposed to seeming like a Zombie. In that era, on a Sunday afternoon, you could take a ride or a walk, and the radios in the cars you would pass would all be tuned to the major FM rock station in your city, so you would hear the music from that one station from open car windows just as if you had a radio on yourself. With the gradual move the music made away from guitar based rock music starting in the late nineties, and more towards "pop" music, that formerly dominant culture has become a distant memory. Someone born in 1995 is now 26-27 years old, a seemingly unfathomable fact which plays into not only our discussions on music, but also memories and discussions of Armstrongism.
Like the music, Armstrongism has taken many turns over the past decades. Yes, those of us who grew up in classic Armstrongism have certain recollections and grievances, and we also happen to be of the same generation as the classic rock n rollers. Our truths are much different from the truths of those raised in the splinters. We remember the things which HWA said and wrote when he was alive, as opposed to having been told sanitized versions by long term members still in the splinters. We remember avidly reading Ambassador Reports from when it was originally published as the only reliable source for what was really going on behind the scenes in Armstrongism. The ministers actually read it because they felt that there were so many things they were not being told in their controlled environment, vital things they needed to know.
It's been about thirty years of splinters now. That's a generation, a lifetime, As nearly as I can tell, attending RCG is analogous to Death Metal. It's like an extremely amplified distortion of the original, although Dave claims to holding down the fort, and preserving all things HWA. PCG? Reminds me of goth, totally Kafkaesque. UCG and it's daughter, the COGAWA, are pure bland pap, like Adele or Lady Gaga. LCG is like the music taken on the road by a once famous classic rock band with only one original member, usually the bass player. The rest of the musicians are punk rockers who finally learned how to play their instruments. Weinland is like Weird Al Yankovik, or Primus. Bob Thiel is like Paul Simon during his Graceland period.
We endured what we endured. I can certainly understand the vested interests of the white-washers who come here to question or rewrite the history and factual materials which we actually lived, but they are wrong. They are attempting to preserve something very toxic, something that should have been stamped out and eradicated long ago, but is somehow continuing to ruin the lives of smaller and smaller groups of people. As long as one person is still enslaved by Armstrongism, none of us are truly free!
Often a butthole of a person, to put it mildly, but every so often he says something surprisingly well-considered.
Petry, your screed is delusional as all get out! HWA was nothing more than a con man peddling recycled Adventist fantasies, mixed with Mormon and British-Israel balderdash. So, our digs are not misinformed, but painstakingly accurate!
....... "God and Jesus are two separate persons united in a family relationship. This is called bitheism and is a subset of polytheism which is found only in pagan religions. HWA makes much of the fact that the term "Trinity" does not occur in scripture (MOA, page 40). But, to be fair, "bitheism" - which describes Armstrongism - also does not occur in scripture."
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The Father and the Son.....not a family relationship? It's time, Neo, to go plant some orchids and grow corn, or something......
Neo claimed: You can get down in the weeds and talk about HWA's astute witness to the nations but you have to realize at some point that you do not have the foundation. You do not have a cohesive, documented and credible Doctrine of God. Without that, the rest is just re-arranging chairs on the deck of the Titanic.
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You assume too much, as usual, Neo.
One could just as easily say back to Neo— You can get down in the weeds and talk about HWA's non witness to the nations but you have to realize at some point that you do not have the foundation. You do not have a cohesive, documented and credible Doctrine of God. Without that, the rest is just re-arranging chairs on the deck of the Titanic with orthodoxy.
You have no idea what I believe. You assume your belief in a “blob” of a god is accurate because that is orthodox and accepted by the masses. I once read a short sci-fi story that was like your presentation, only different. Mankind had grown to populate the universe. Mankind then figured out how to connect all the computers in the universe with thin, long gold wires. So they built a central “control panel” with a massive computer. Finally all were connected. It was time to turn it on. The moderator said to the tv viewers on all the planets, we are ready to turn on the greatest computer system ever developed by mankind. Once it is on and running we will ask the most important question man has wanted an answer to… So he pushed the button, it came on, and he asked the question: “Is there a God?” There was a short pause, then a tremendous flash of light, and a booming voice said: “NOW THERE IS.” (Hmmm, did that computer have a form, shape, and a computer looking body?)
Sorry Neo, but you did not refute my point of how HWA did preach the Messiah to the nations. Which means you didn’t know any more about it than the other ill informed critics here fulfilling prophecy.
Now, HWA and the WCG had problems, some big ones. But sadly the important ones this site has missed as do you. One of the payments for that was warned ahead of time, that is that “ofel” would be spread over the ministry, and be criticized constantly, which the critics here do constantly. The problem mainly is most of the criticisms are not factual. The real criticism shoul be truthful, not spiteful. Oh well, humans are human.
If you remove the arrogance and bluster from Rob Petry's posts, you are left with zero of substance, kind of just like Armstrongism without the flapping hog jowls.
To his credit, NEO has investigated far beyond what we were taught in WCG + splinters, and has shared so much edifying depth with us all. HWA understood at best 2/3 of God, and we could argue that he understood another 1/3 (Jesus Christ) very poorly. HWA reduced the Holy Spirit from an interactive sentient being to an impersonal power, and what he did to the meaning of the life, death and ressurrection of Jesus Christ made it highly inaccurate to even call Armstrongism "Christianity".
Petry, your posts indicate that if we have spiritual senses analogous to the physical touch, taste, see, hear, and smell, you are missing at least two. If readers looked to and believed your posts, they'd be sent directly back to the time of Moses!
Having said that, I did enjoy your antics and Laura's on the old Dick Van Dyke Show. You should have stuck to your comedy!
anonymous 12:14
You fumbled this badly. I did not say that Father-Son was not a family relationship. I said that HWA posited two separate beings connected in a family relationship. The Father-Son relationship demonstrates how HWA thought that God the Father and Jesus were related. If you read the latter chapters of the Gospel of John, you will realize that this is an error.
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8.27 AM
I was hoping for something better than a strawman argument from you.
Bob Petry 12:20
If I have no idea what you believe then what have you been writing about? Someone else's beliefs?
I did not intend to refute anything about HWA's attempts to involve himself for whatever vested interests with world leaders. But I can say this. If you have no idea who God is and you worship some other God besides the Christian God, you have nothing worth saying to world leaders. Which Messiah are you and HWA talking about - a mysterious personage who is a part of a polytheistic pantheon?
You like to weaponize prophecy and direct it at people who contribute to this blog. So here is some weaponized prophecy directed at you:
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
I think you need some help in turning away from fables. You can start by getting a Christian systematic theology and reading about the Doctrine of God. The first step is that simple. Millard Erickson wrote a good one.
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"If you remove the arrogance and bluster from Rob Petry's posts, you are left with zero of substance, kind of just like Armstrongism without the flapping hog jowls. "
Petry has acted this way for years. Ho old blog and posts on various COG newsgroups were filled with this same crap. Totally useless slobbering over HWA and how he has a better interpretation of scripture than even Herb did. Petry and Bob Thiel could be twins with the absolute craziness that comes out of them that I call prophecy diarrhea.
What's this "C.L." after Petry's name? Can we assume "Cult Leader"? I certainly hope it's nothing of a sexual nature.
Neo 1-2-2022 2:09 PM
...our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. 1 John 1:3.
Much like COVID19 made "experts" out of third string podiatrists and opthamologists, every now and then we get a Pasadena toilet-scrubber wanting to tell us what REALLY went on in the big offices.
Well said Bob. NEO and her type are everything that is wrong from within the ministry. Hypocrites every single one of them, every single day, repeatedly.
3:47 wrote “ What's this "C.L." after Petry's name? Can we assume "Cult Leader"? I certainly hope it's nothing of a sexual nature.”
Petry has always seen himself as a leader but could never gather a following. He got laughed at a lot and was constantly ridiculed so much he stopped posting his stuff. Now he’s back here making a fool of himself again. He should join Bob Thiel’s cult. Two of a kind.
Anonymous 4:44
You have cited a scripture that speaks of the Father and Jesus. But there are several "triads" in scripture that cite all three. While the triads are not the core of the doctrine of the Trinity, the triads certainly offset you citation.
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7:16 wrote: 3:47 wrote “ What's this "C.L." after Petry's name? Can we assume "Cult Leader"? I certainly hope it's nothing of a sexual nature.”
Petry has always seen himself as a leader but could never gather a following. He got laughed at a lot and was constantly ridiculed so much he stopped posting his stuff. Now he’s back here making a fool of himself again. He should join Bob Thiel’s cult. Two of a kind.
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So typical of a well uninformed bigot.
How is it that a buffoon like you can read my mind and claim you know I believed myself as a leader? You don’t know anything sad to say. For instance I and my wife did public access tv for twenty years. Even though most was on the bible, I always said: “I am not a minister, I do not have a church, and there is nothing for you to join.” How would I build a following doing that?
Funny, only those who laughed at me were the likes of ill informed people like you and the other critics here.
As for my web posting, you are ignorant on that too. After I began posting and writing about the hundreds of verses written thousands of years ago that describe the atheists of today, they hacked my sites. Yep, the good ole boy atheists.
Also, had a stroke around the same time. So, instead of fighting the wrong enemy, I let them go and worked on recovering. No doctors, hospitals, etc. At my age my friends were amazed at how well I recovered. How did I do it? First fasting and prayer. And using my training as a C. L. It stands for Certified Lymphologist.
As for making a fool of myself here, well dream on my friend. Your making up things like you just did shows just the opposite. You are a beautiful example of why everyone, almost, writes as an anon. Not enough courage to use your name.
By the way, the greek word for fool, foolish, etc. looks and reads like the English word moron. And, you know who the bible calls a fool, you know, the one who says there is no - - -.
I really enjoyed your lack of truth, so typical here. Thanks.
Neo wrote:
You like to weaponize prophecy and direct it at people who contribute to this blog. So here is some weaponized prophecy directed at you:
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." (This fully describes you, and this site Neo. Thanks for reminding me.)
I think you need some help in turning away from fables. You can start by getting a Christian systematic theology and reading about the Doctrine of God. The first step is that simple. Millard Erickson wrote a good one.
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Why Neo, you’ve made up another misdirection. Prophecy is not weaponized. That is just the typical way critics and atheists use to try and minimize facts they can’t overcome. Prophecy is prophecy to explain what to look for in the future. The description in prophecy reveals the actions to look for. So, we see that description here with no question.
There are many more verses in the Bible describing the biblical deity, versus the “orthodoxy” description of man’s mind that you grasp on to. Maybe you should read all those verses slowly and in context.
When writing my book on the Messiah I spent 10 years almost daily going through the volumes on christianity, in the UofA library. Plus, unlike you, I got to see and compare the more original teachings of the RCG/WCG. From your past comments you are in a similar boat to Gary and Dennis. All three of you are, in reality, students of the post invasion changes that occurred during the mid 60’s, and after. You mentioned Ron Kelly, who used a term you thot so compelling. Well, he joined right in with those taking over. So, I’m not impressed with the reasonings of you three.
As for your systematic theology of christianity suggestion. Already been there, done that. You haven’t said anything so far that I haven’t already studied. Began all that starting in 1953, and still going.
Neo, it is a real pleasure to read your responses.
Well said Bob. Cutting through all the crap with your sharp comments. I applaud you.
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