Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!
With all the new crazy self-appointed Chief Overseers, Apostles, Prophets, Pharisees, legalists, and outright liars leading various Churches of God today, it is important to hold these agents of deception accountable.
Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
Ron Dart exposed that long ago, it's about making an idol. But I don't think that absolves the command not to copy pagan practices. Around here, the Amish celebrate a form of Christmas devoid of worldliness and pagan symbols.
Herbert Armstrong was proficient at twisting both Scripture and history. The Christmas tree is an invention of the CHRISTIAN ERA! They first appeared about 500 years ago now in Germany. And, while it is possible to turn ANYTHING into an idol, I don't personally know of anyone who participates in the Christmas tree tradition who does so with their tree (In fact, it has been my experience that most of the folks who have real trees drag them out to the curb and unceremoniously dump them there for the garbage men to pick up and discard).
We did have a lady on one of the old forums years ago who had so much WCG-bias confirmation that she insisted that she knew people who bowed down to their Christmas trees.
As Ive noted in years past, if you've ever seen a wooden artwork thats been gilded, you know what the passage is talking about. It was a very popular practice in the ancient world.
COG leaders have deliberately lied to members for decades about this verse. Did none of them have the intelligence to even research even a little into the passage?
I bring this up every year. Maybe I should put a sock in it. But celebrating Christmas is not just about ornaments and music and celebration as critics would assert. It is also about economics. Part of the whole Christmas scene are the pre-Christmas and post-Christmas sales. They are labelled Christmas sales. The buying and selling is transacted in the midst of an abundance of Christmas decorations with, like as not, Christmas muzak playing in the background. Yet I have never heard a voice of blazing condemnation of Christmas sales coming out of Splinterdom. Maybe when it hits the pocketbook, it's going too far even for zealous Armstrongists.
It's very sad how brainwashed the COGlodytes are. They venerate a fat, hog-jowled pervert who uttered hundreds of recorded false predictions and copied his doctrines from other cults - while they label harmless customs, customs rooted in Christianity, as pagan abominations. It's very dark indeed, when you have your head way up the ass of HWA ... and everyone knows where there is a lack of vision, the people perish.
If Bible God exists and cared, he'd come down and tell us. He doesn't do this because he either doesn't exist or doesn't care...or both. Facts are stubborn things...😂🤘🙃
It's not a matter of intelligence, 4:09! People complain here about us using phrases like "programmed robots", but I knew people who tested above genius range and had advanced degrees, and rather than question anything, they'd fall back on "Mr. Armstrong says..." That was their ultimate truth. I did occasionally question some of the church's generally accepted interpretations, and had one of these geniuses tell me that I needed to pray about my intellectual vanity!
It's not only Armstrongism which manifests this defect. There is a lot of superstition and misinformation in mainstream Christianity as well. Pope Urban VIII most likely thought Galileo had intellectual vanity regarding his support of heliocentrism.
It's a trait of many churches and secular organizations to harp on some technicality/s in order to make their members feel separate from, and superior to society at large. It strengthens their grip on their members. This is observable every time a ACOG splinters.
Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. Jeremiah 10:2 KJV https://bible.com/bible/1/jer.10.2.KJV
Do you want to be a heathen? Okay then, don't celebrate Christmas which involves the decor of tree.
Christmas is a pagan holiday. Which is evil but putting Christ which is good in it . Is mixing good with evil. May I please ask you have you heard of the movie Santa Claus is coming to town? If I may ask it has a character called The Winter Warlock which is a type of witch. He does crystal ball gazing and was crying when he lost his magic magick is evil so is being a witch and crystal ball gazing. But the movie also had Santa Claus freely giving generously and being and some valuable parts. But again it is mixed with evil . Adam and Eve chose the tree of the knowledge of good and evil the forbidden tree which God commanded them not to take for they did they shall surely die. Then there is God's command to pick the tree of life. This world because of Adam's decision has been picking for himself what is good and evil. Even studies show most humans are a mix of good and evil which proves what God said to be true. When you add Christ into that Pagan holiday called " The Roman Saturnalia/ Yule" which after they tried mixing it with Christianity is now claming Jesus was born on December 25 th ( which he really wasn't) it became known as Christmas . Christmas was wrong to celebrate even early Americans knew this that is why they made it illegal Christmas observance was outlawed in Boston in 1659. The true Jesus Christ was born in Autumn like September or October not december 25 th at all. SEARCH your Bible! How many birthday celebrations do you find? That of a Pharaoh who celebrated his birthday by hanging his chief baker (Gen. 40). And a second, Herod's birthday birthday celebration at which John the Baptist beheaded (Matt. 14:6). Only two definite birthday celebrations in the entire Bible! [12/11, 12:52 PM] Patrick: 6But when Herod's birthday was kept, the daughter of Herodias danced before them, and pleased Herod. 7Whereupon he promised with an oath to give her whatsoever she would ask. 8And she, being before instructed of her mother, said, Give me here John Baptist's head in a charger. 9And the king was sorry: nevertheless for the oath's sake, and them which sat with him at meat, he commanded it to be given her. 10 And he sent, and beheaded John in the prison" We are to avoid the appearance of evil ( 1 thes.5:22) " Abstain from all appearance of evil." 1 Thessalonians 5:22 KJV "Abstain from every form of evil." I Thessalonians 5:22 NKJV Abstain from all appearance of evil. 1 Thessalonians 5:22 KJVA 22. Abstain from every form of wickedness. (A Faithful Version) How can you avoid the apperance of evil when you take evil occult like pagan holidays and mix with good. It says avoid the appreance of all evil. Yet you are just taking alot of evil and some good mixing them together and you made modern day Christmas Look there is the way of God the way of give the way love the way of life! Then there is the way of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil really a tree of death. You must pick your own path . Wolf in sheep clothing think they can take good mix with evil when the bible says avoid appreance of every form of evil. And this May I please ask you how is not avoiding pagan festivals like Christmas , Easter, Halloween , Birthdays , Valentine's day, and mixing it with goodness like Christ's birth and resurrection, and giving gifts and stuff any different then Adam and eve deciding what is good and evil . With the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Them mixing Good and evil failing God's test. The Bible shows that we offend God if we try to worship him in a way that he does not approve of.—Exodus 32:5-7.
I continue to be fascinated by those who still swallow the lie of COG ministers that this is discussing a Christmas tree. Most of this crap is thanks to Ralph Woodward who was the biggest idol of the church after Herbert Armstrong. The church used his books to back up their interpretations when in reality Woodward got a lot of his crap from COG literature.He later repented of his lies and published rebuttal books on his own books. He is a man of integrity unlike the liars occupying COG's today.
Hey Poor COGlodyte of Saturday, December 18, 2021 at 6:58:00 PM PST: Just one example of how wrong and cult-indoctrinated you are, is evidenced by how you overlooked the most spectacular, Earth-shaking birthday celebration told of in the Holy Bible. This birthday also included crushing a head - that head being the head of Satan. The most glorious Birthday celebration ever told of - the very one the COGs deny, can be found in the telling of the birth of Jesus in Luke 2:13-14: "Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying, “Glory to God in the highest heaven, and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests.”
While secular and commercial entities have mixed their personal interests with the holy celebration of Jesus, the Light of the World, that mixing does not daunt the heavenly hosts, angels, and Christians from continuing to sing and praise God for Jesus illuminating the dark world and defeating Satan. The COG's too have tried to mix in with the celebration of the first coming of King Jesus by falsely claiming all Christmas celebration is pagan. The deceptive COGs have claimed that what the heavenly hosts rejoiced over is really pagan blasphemy - that is some ugly, COG-evil mixing.
Instead of mixing evil with the holy event of Jesus' birth, you are invited to fall on your knees, hear the angle voices, and behold your King!
Lyrics of Holy Night: O holy night, The stars are brightly shining; It is the night of Our dear Savior's birth! Long lay the world In sin and error pining, Till He appeared And the soul felt its worth. A thrill of hope, The weary world rejoices, For yonder breaks A new and glorious morn. Fall on your knees, O hear the angel voices! O night divine, O night when Christ was born! O night divine, O night, O night divine!
Led by the light of Faith Serenely beaming, With glowing hearts By His cradle we stand. So led by light of a star Sweetly gleaming, Here came the wise men From Orient land. The King of Kings lay thus In lowly manger, In all our trials Born to be our Friend! He knows our need, To our weakness no stranger; Behold your King! Before the lowly bend! Behold your King! your King! Before Him bend.
Truly He taught us To love one another; His law is love and His gospel is peace. Chains shall He break For the slave is our brother And in His name All oppression shall cease. Sweet hymns of joy in Grateful chorus raise we, Let all within us Praise His holy name! Christ is the Lord, Oh praise His name forever, His pow'r and glory evermore proclaim His pow'r and glory Evermore proclaim.
There is no proof that Jesus was born on December 25; his birth date is not recorded in the Bible and Christmas is not approved by God because it is rooted in pagan customs and rites. Christ was born in early fall: We can estimate when Jesus was born by counting backward from his death on Passover, Nisan 14 in the spring of the year 33 C.E. (John 19:14-16) Jesus was about 30 years old when he began his three-and-a-half-year ministry, so he was born in the early fall of 2 B.C.E.—Luke 3:23.
Reading a bunch of Church of God booklets does NOT constitute research. Talk about drinking the Armstrong Kool-Aid! The fact is that the overwhelming majority of Christmas traditions have absolutely NOTHING to do with paganism. And how many folks do you know who actually burn a yule log (or even have a fireplace)? Sorry, I know it's a very inconvenient truth, but two gospel accounts (Matthew and Luke) have fairly detailed accounts of Christ's birth. Saint Nicholas was originally a Christian evangelist. I've already talked about the tree's origins within the Christian Era in Germany. Indeed, most of the art, music, literature, movies and recipes which we associate with Christmas are inventions of the last two hundred years! As for worshipping God "in a way that he doesn't approve of," does that include keeping the pilgrimage festivals outside of Jerusalem and not constructing temporary shelters from tree branches? And, while we're at it, please cite the scripture(s) which prescribe the standard music, sermonette, announcements and sermon format of the ACOG's worship service.
"Wolf in sheep clothing think they can take good mix with evil when the bible says avoid appreance of every form of evil" <---this said by True Christian who follows Dave Pack who has proven himself a false prophet by biblical standards. TC, I know you don't have a clue how hypocritical you're being but you might want to "study" other topics such as Dave Pack's not so giving past
Here's the thing. How does redemption take place? It happens through Jesus Christ. Are you still sinful? Were you once pagan? The answer to both is yes, of course. However, Jesus Christ makes you pure in God's sight. Jesus purifies! How do you rid something of paganism? Same principle. Jesus Christ. You replace paganism or pagan elements with Jesus Christ! You might even want to go way overboard on this by taking something that once was pagan, vanquishing it, and co-opting it for Jesus Christ! Isn't that what we aspire to do with any type of sin?
God created the winter solstice. Pagans certainly celebrated it, as they also did various of the other seasonal and celestial events which the holy days from Torah teach us about. The winter solstice this year doesn't even fall on Dec. 25, it is on Dec. 21. If original truth was given to Adam and Eve, at some point all the things that God made, and saw that they were good, were abused and corrupted by the pagans and subverted to worship ot their gods. Christians have forsaken the pagan elements and have dedicated December 25 to Jesus Christ for centuries now. Nobody really even mentions the winter solstice, a natural, god ordained phenomenon,as part of the Christmas festivities. Even if they did, Jesus is all about rebirth. The winter solstice marks the beginning of the gradual return of the warmer weather, a new season. How is this any different in principle from looking into the heavens for the very first thin little slivver of new moon?
This is another vast area in which Herbert Armstrong was dead wrong, completely missing the meaning of and work of Jesus Christ and the differences between the New Covenant and the Old Covenant. Actually, when you think about it, more people are thinking of and talking about Jesus at this time of the year than at any other time, with the possible exception of Easter. That is not a bad thing! Not at all!!! The ways in which the pagans corrupted and subverted the winter solstice would have long since been forgotten were it not for Herbert W, Armstrong misappropriating Alexander Hislop's debunked book "The Two Babylons" as if it were simply another part of the New Testament canon.
All the evidence points to Christmas being pagan, but many don't want the facts because they want to do what makes them feel comfortable – rather than what God wants may God have mercy on them.
TC may be troll on a lark but he uses the standard argument against Christmas that is found in Armstrongism. And the Armstrongist view on Christmas is a pointed example in logic of what is called the Genetic Fallacy. From Wikipedia:
"The genetic fallacy (also known as the fallacy of origins or fallacy of virtue) is a fallacy of irrelevance that is based solely on someone's or something's history, origin, or source rather than its current meaning or context. This overlooks any difference to be found in the present situation, typically transferring the positive or negative esteem from the earlier context. In other words, a claim is ignored in favor of attacking or championing its source...The fallacy therefore fails to assess the claim on its merit."
As Miller Jones points out the data on origins is not convincing. But even if the data were persuasive, the Genetic Fallacy would still be present. The Armstrongist use of the Genetic Fallacy has a big downside because of human history. Many social characteristics and artifacts are somehow, in an innocuous way my view, associated with past paganism. Drums were used long before there was the knowledge of God - back in Pre-Adamic times, if you will. Even in the Bronze Age drums were explicitly connected with pagan activities and this is referred to in Jeremiah 7:31-32 - the same book where the putative Christmas Tree references are written. From Wikipedia:
"The historically most significant etymology, followed by both Jewish and Christian exegetes until the modern period, was made by the eleventh-century CE rabbi Rashi, who derived the term from Hebrew toph "drum," claiming that the drums were beaten during the sacrifice to Moloch, deriving his ideas from Plutarch's description of Carthaginian sacrifice."
This etymology has now been recently challenged but, in the abundance of caution, should not Armstrongists reject the use of drums as musical instruments of paganism? Yet at the next big musical presentation out there in Splinterdom drums will be played.
As Armstrongists select which Laws of Moses they wish to keep and how, they also select which social phenonmenon they wish to label as "pagan." This is politics not theology.
I admit, the one thing I enjoy about Christmastime is hearing COGlodytes rant about it. Its one thing to not observe (hell, I don't), but the unprompted aggressive mode so many of them go into during December is soooo reminiscient of Southern Baptists - wanting everyone to be as miserable as they often are.
We've had a handful of scholars contribute to the many Armstrong-dissident blogs, sites, and forums over the years. Some of these were life-long students of history who actually knew how to follow an evidentiary trail, as opposed to using the Armstrong practice of proof-texting, or cherry-picking excerpts to "prove" a previously arrived at conclusion. One such person, during this very season a number of years ago, had gone back into the written records of the very earliest leaders of the Christian movement, men who had been involved in councils and discussions leading to decisions on such things as canonization of the works we use today as New Testament scripture.
I wish we had these bloggers' works saved in perpetuity, because they addressed many of the fallacies taught by Herbert W. Armstrong, fallacies which are always cited as "research" each year when we have these annual discussions about Christmas. If you are a member of one of the splinter groups, you should know that all you have to support what you think you know about Christmas, things that you believe to be deep research, are actually very shallow, and are based largely on theories and unwarranted leaps. Does it ever bother you that there are just a sentence or two in the Bible about Nimrod? That historians have never been able to establish correlation between this Biblical character and any figure in actual history? That an entire folklore has been concocted surrounding this man and all of the pagan customs he supposedly originated?
Armstrongites are generally very headstrong. You people think you know so many things to be fact, when in actuality the truth is out there and your leaders have historically taught you not to go to sources outside of your own church's literature for your answers. Why would they do they do this? On one hand, I believe that they are correct in assuming that many members would not know how the research process even works. The problem is that they forgot to include themselves in that statement. They did not know either! It always sounded really impressive, and deep for a Herman Hoeh type to quote from some esoteric ancient source to authenticate something taught by Herbert W. Armstrong. And, that actually worked for years until real scholarly types who were familiar with the original sources found those passages, and discovered that they had beeen lifted from context to make them say precisely the opposite of what they actually said if one had read the entire treatise.
One can believe that one has truth. Do you really have it? In the field of science, truth is what survives after meticulous effort is made to disprove it. Armstrongism has not survived that sort of rigorous testing or processing. You just won't know that, well......until SNAP!
What the true people of God should do is direct attention to God’s Kingdom as the true hope for peace on earth and also Jesus commanded that we commemorate his death, not his birth. Read Luke 22:19, 20. Those who still celebrate Christmas despite knowing about its pagan roots and having lack of support from the Bible for their claims are willfully sinning because they know the truth about Christmas and yet choose to do anyway betraying the God they pretend to serve. Because they know what to do what is right ( not celebrate Christmas) and choose to do it not to him it is sin.
Biblical proof we shouldn't worship Pagan ways: "Hear the word which the Lord speaks to you, O house of Israel. Thus says the Lord, “Do not learn the way of the [pagan] nations, And do not be terrified and distressed by the signs of the heavens Although the pagans are terrified by them; For the customs and decrees of the peoples are [mere] delusion [exercises in futility]; It is only wood which one cuts from the forest [to make a god], The work of the hands of the craftsman with the axe or cutting tool. They adorn the idol with silver and with gold; They fasten it with hammers and nails So that it will not fall apart." Jeremiah 10:1-4 AMP “Do not worship the Lord your God in the way these pagan peoples worship their gods." Deuteronomy 12:4 NLT If pagans use Christmas to worship their Gods then we shouldn't use it to worship the God of the Bible it's very simple.
T/C: Let's put your arguments to the acid test. Would you want to live in a world or for that matter in a country where everyone was exactly like you, like the members of your church, and like its leaders?
I can't even begin to imagine what a confused mess that would be! There is no way that it could be any manner of functional ecology system!
Why don't you ponder on that for a bit and think about what changes could make it better?
I agree with the guy who calls himself a true Christian because God has seven annual holy days they do not include Christmas, Easter, Halloween, New Year's , and Valentine's, among others all of which carry plain pagan roots for those who care to look God will destroy the nations who do not repent of these sins.
You gotta wonder how the joy of Christmas pans out in the Winnail household. Sherry loves Christmas, while at best, Doug needs to keep up the appearance that Christmas is an abomination. I bet Doug lets Sherry enjoy the holiday with decorations, music, and traditional foods (maybe even ham?!). Meanwhile, Doug instructs the lowly LCG people to avoid such "pagan" practices. Has anyone been invited to the Winnail's for a cup of egg nog?
For the narrow-minded people in the Armstrong cults, Christmas is about family togetherness! A time of reflection and gift giving. Christian love is what this Holy season represents.
42 comments:
Decor can be an idol.
Ron Dart exposed that long ago, it's about making an idol. But I don't think that absolves the command not to copy pagan practices.
Around here, the Amish celebrate a form of Christmas devoid of worldliness and pagan symbols.
Well, if you can find someone that actually sees a Christmas tree as a god and worships the tree, go for it.
Herbert Armstrong was proficient at twisting both Scripture and history. The Christmas tree is an invention of the CHRISTIAN ERA! They first appeared about 500 years ago now in Germany. And, while it is possible to turn ANYTHING into an idol, I don't personally know of anyone who participates in the Christmas tree tradition who does so with their tree (In fact, it has been my experience that most of the folks who have real trees drag them out to the curb and unceremoniously dump them there for the garbage men to pick up and discard).
We did have a lady on one of the old forums years ago who had so much WCG-bias confirmation that she insisted that she knew people who bowed down to their Christmas trees.
As Ive noted in years past, if you've ever seen a wooden artwork thats been gilded, you know what the passage is talking about. It was a very popular practice in the ancient world.
COG leaders have deliberately lied to members for decades about this verse. Did none of them have the intelligence to even research even a little into the passage?
I bring this up every year. Maybe I should put a sock in it. But celebrating Christmas is not just about ornaments and music and celebration as critics would assert. It is also about economics. Part of the whole Christmas scene are the pre-Christmas and post-Christmas sales. They are labelled Christmas sales. The buying and selling is transacted in the midst of an abundance of Christmas decorations with, like as not, Christmas muzak playing in the background. Yet I have never heard a voice of blazing condemnation of Christmas sales coming out of Splinterdom. Maybe when it hits the pocketbook, it's going too far even for zealous Armstrongists.
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It's very sad how brainwashed the COGlodytes are.
They venerate a fat, hog-jowled pervert who uttered hundreds of recorded false predictions and copied his doctrines from other cults - while they label harmless customs, customs rooted in Christianity, as pagan abominations.
It's very dark indeed, when you have your head way up the ass of HWA ... and everyone knows where there is a lack of vision, the people perish.
If Bible God exists and cared, he'd come down and tell us. He doesn't do this because he either doesn't exist or doesn't care...or both. Facts are stubborn things...😂🤘🙃
It's not a matter of intelligence, 4:09! People complain here about us using phrases like "programmed robots", but I knew people who tested above genius range and had advanced degrees, and rather than question anything, they'd fall back on "Mr. Armstrong says..." That was their ultimate truth. I did occasionally question some of the church's generally accepted interpretations, and had one of these geniuses tell me that I needed to pray about my intellectual vanity!
It's not only Armstrongism which manifests this defect. There is a lot of superstition and misinformation in mainstream Christianity as well.
Pope Urban VIII most likely thought Galileo had intellectual vanity regarding his support of heliocentrism.
It's a trait of many churches and secular organizations to harp on some technicality/s in order to make their members feel separate from, and superior to society at large. It strengthens their grip on their members.
This is observable every time a ACOG splinters.
I KNOW that CHRISTMAS is PAGAN, because I'VE DONE MY RESEARCH and I GOT THE FACTS and this BLOG is SOOO OFF TRACK!!!!!!
Let's keep it all in context.
Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
Jeremiah 10:2 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/jer.10.2.KJV
Do you want to be a heathen? Okay then, don't celebrate Christmas which involves the decor of tree.
Christmas is a pagan holiday. Which is evil but putting Christ which is good in it . Is mixing good with evil. May I please ask you have you heard of the movie Santa Claus is coming to town? If I may ask it has a character called The Winter Warlock which is a type of witch. He does crystal ball gazing and was crying when he lost his magic magick is evil so is being a witch and crystal ball gazing. But the movie also had Santa Claus freely giving generously and being and some valuable parts. But again it is mixed with evil . Adam and Eve chose the tree of the knowledge of good and evil the forbidden tree which God commanded them not to take for they did they shall surely die. Then there is God's command to pick the tree of life. This world because of Adam's decision has been picking for himself what is good and evil. Even studies show most humans are a mix of good and evil which proves what God said to be true. When you add Christ into that Pagan holiday called " The Roman Saturnalia/ Yule" which after they tried mixing it with Christianity is now claming Jesus was born on December 25 th ( which he really wasn't) it became known as Christmas . Christmas was wrong to celebrate even early Americans knew this that is why they made it illegal Christmas observance was outlawed in Boston in 1659.
The true Jesus Christ was born in Autumn like September or October not december 25 th at all.
SEARCH your Bible! How many birthday celebrations do you find?
That of a Pharaoh who celebrated his birthday by hanging his chief baker (Gen. 40). And a second, Herod's birthday birthday celebration at which John the Baptist beheaded (Matt. 14:6).
Only two definite birthday celebrations in the entire Bible!
[12/11, 12:52 PM] Patrick: 6But when Herod's birthday was kept, the daughter of Herodias danced before them, and pleased Herod. 7Whereupon he promised with an oath to give her whatsoever she would ask. 8And she, being before instructed of her mother, said, Give me here John Baptist's head in a charger. 9And the king was sorry: nevertheless for the oath's sake, and them which sat with him at meat, he commanded it to be given her. 10 And he sent, and beheaded John in the prison"
We are to avoid the appearance of evil ( 1 thes.5:22) " Abstain from all appearance of evil."
1 Thessalonians 5:22 KJV
"Abstain from every form of evil."
I Thessalonians 5:22 NKJV
Abstain from all appearance of evil.
1 Thessalonians 5:22 KJVA
22. Abstain from every form of wickedness. (A Faithful Version)
How can you avoid the apperance of evil when you take evil occult like pagan holidays and mix with good.
It says avoid the appreance of all evil. Yet you are just taking alot of evil and some good mixing them together and you made modern day Christmas
Look there is the way of God the way of give the way love the way of life! Then there is the way of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil really a tree of death.
You must pick your own path .
Wolf in sheep clothing think they can take good mix with evil when the bible says avoid appreance of every form of evil. And this May I please ask you how is not avoiding pagan festivals like Christmas , Easter, Halloween , Birthdays , Valentine's day, and mixing it with goodness like Christ's birth and resurrection, and giving gifts and stuff any different then Adam and eve deciding what is good and evil . With the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Them mixing Good and evil failing God's test. The Bible shows that we offend God if we try to worship him in a way that he does not approve of.—Exodus 32:5-7.
But several threads ago, you told us you loved Christmas!
I continue to be fascinated by those who still swallow the lie of COG ministers that this is discussing a Christmas tree. Most of this crap is thanks to Ralph Woodward who was the biggest idol of the church after Herbert Armstrong. The church used his books to back up their interpretations when in reality Woodward got a lot of his crap from COG literature.He later repented of his lies and published rebuttal books on his own books. He is a man of integrity unlike the liars occupying COG's today.
Hey Poor COGlodyte of Saturday, December 18, 2021 at 6:58:00 PM PST:
Just one example of how wrong and cult-indoctrinated you are, is evidenced by how you overlooked the most spectacular, Earth-shaking birthday celebration told of in the Holy Bible.
This birthday also included crushing a head - that head being the head of Satan.
The most glorious Birthday celebration ever told of - the very one the COGs deny, can be found in the telling of the birth of Jesus in Luke 2:13-14:
"Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying, “Glory to God in the highest heaven, and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests.”
While secular and commercial entities have mixed their personal interests with the holy celebration of Jesus, the Light of the World, that mixing does not daunt the heavenly hosts, angels, and Christians from continuing to sing and praise God for Jesus illuminating the dark world and defeating Satan.
The COG's too have tried to mix in with the celebration of the first coming of King Jesus by falsely claiming all Christmas celebration is pagan.
The deceptive COGs have claimed that what the heavenly hosts rejoiced over is really pagan blasphemy - that is some ugly, COG-evil mixing.
Instead of mixing evil with the holy event of Jesus' birth, you are invited to fall on your knees, hear the angle voices, and behold your King!
Lyrics of Holy Night:
O holy night,
The stars are brightly shining;
It is the night of
Our dear Savior's birth!
Long lay the world
In sin and error pining,
Till He appeared
And the soul felt its worth.
A thrill of hope,
The weary world rejoices,
For yonder breaks
A new and glorious morn.
Fall on your knees,
O hear the angel voices!
O night divine,
O night when Christ was born!
O night divine, O night,
O night divine!
Led by the light of Faith
Serenely beaming,
With glowing hearts
By His cradle we stand.
So led by light of a star
Sweetly gleaming,
Here came the wise men
From Orient land.
The King of Kings lay thus
In lowly manger,
In all our trials
Born to be our Friend!
He knows our need,
To our weakness no stranger;
Behold your King!
Before the lowly bend!
Behold your King! your King!
Before Him bend.
Truly He taught us
To love one another;
His law is love and
His gospel is peace.
Chains shall He break
For the slave is our brother
And in His name
All oppression shall cease.
Sweet hymns of joy in
Grateful chorus raise we,
Let all within us
Praise His holy name!
Christ is the Lord,
Oh praise His name forever,
His pow'r and glory evermore proclaim
His pow'r and glory
Evermore proclaim.
There is no proof that Jesus was born on December 25; his birth date is not recorded in the Bible and Christmas is not approved by God because it is rooted in pagan customs and rites.
Christ was born in early fall:
We can estimate when Jesus was born by counting backward from his death on Passover, Nisan 14 in the spring of the year 33 C.E. (John 19:14-16) Jesus was about 30 years old when he began his three-and-a-half-year ministry, so he was born in the early fall of 2 B.C.E.—Luke 3:23.
True Christian,
Reading a bunch of Church of God booklets does NOT constitute research. Talk about drinking the Armstrong Kool-Aid! The fact is that the overwhelming majority of Christmas traditions have absolutely NOTHING to do with paganism. And how many folks do you know who actually burn a yule log (or even have a fireplace)? Sorry, I know it's a very inconvenient truth, but two gospel accounts (Matthew and Luke) have fairly detailed accounts of Christ's birth. Saint Nicholas was originally a Christian evangelist. I've already talked about the tree's origins within the Christian Era in Germany. Indeed, most of the art, music, literature, movies and recipes which we associate with Christmas are inventions of the last two hundred years! As for worshipping God "in a way that he doesn't approve of," does that include keeping the pilgrimage festivals outside of Jerusalem and not constructing temporary shelters from tree branches? And, while we're at it, please cite the scripture(s) which prescribe the standard music, sermonette, announcements and sermon format of the ACOG's worship service.
"Wolf in sheep clothing think they can take good mix with evil when the bible says avoid appreance of every form of evil" <---this said by True Christian who follows Dave Pack who has proven himself a false prophet by biblical standards. TC, I know you don't have a clue how hypocritical you're being but you might want to "study" other topics such as Dave Pack's not so giving past
6.58 PM
Do you think that most, if not all people, even in the millennium won't be a mix of good and evil?
Btw, persuasive power rests on a person's perceived character and not purely on their reasoning. Your perceived character here as TC is not favorable.
Here's the thing. How does redemption take place? It happens through Jesus Christ. Are you still sinful? Were you once pagan? The answer to both is yes, of course. However, Jesus Christ makes you pure in God's sight. Jesus purifies! How do you rid something of paganism? Same principle. Jesus Christ. You replace paganism or pagan elements with Jesus Christ! You might even want to go way overboard on this by taking something that once was pagan, vanquishing it, and co-opting it for Jesus Christ! Isn't that what we aspire to do with any type of sin?
God created the winter solstice. Pagans certainly celebrated it, as they also did various of the other seasonal and celestial events which the holy days from Torah teach us about. The winter solstice this year doesn't even fall on Dec. 25, it is on Dec. 21. If original truth was given to Adam and Eve, at some point all the things that God made, and saw that they were good, were abused and corrupted by the pagans and subverted to worship ot their gods. Christians have forsaken the pagan elements and have dedicated December 25 to Jesus Christ for centuries now. Nobody really even mentions the winter solstice, a natural, god ordained phenomenon,as part of the Christmas festivities. Even if they did, Jesus is all about rebirth. The winter solstice marks the beginning of the gradual return of the warmer weather, a new season. How is this any different in principle from looking into the heavens for the very first thin little slivver of new moon?
This is another vast area in which Herbert Armstrong was dead wrong, completely missing the meaning of and work of Jesus Christ and the differences between the New Covenant and the Old Covenant. Actually, when you think about it, more people are thinking of and talking about Jesus at this time of the year than at any other time, with the possible exception of Easter. That is not a bad thing! Not at all!!! The ways in which the pagans corrupted and subverted the winter solstice would have long since been forgotten were it not for Herbert W, Armstrong misappropriating Alexander Hislop's debunked book "The Two Babylons" as if it were simply another part of the New Testament canon.
All the evidence points to Christmas being pagan, but many don't want the facts because they want to do what makes them feel comfortable – rather than what God wants may God have mercy on them.
TC is a fake troll.
True Christian,
What evidence?
You may want to check out:
https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2020/12/the-plain-truth-about-christmas-trees.html
https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2016/12/pagan-holidays-or-gods-holy-days-really.html
10.48 PM
May God have mercy on Banned trolls.
TC may be troll on a lark but he uses the standard argument against Christmas that is found in Armstrongism. And the Armstrongist view on Christmas is a pointed example in logic of what is called the Genetic Fallacy. From Wikipedia:
"The genetic fallacy (also known as the fallacy of origins or fallacy of virtue) is a fallacy of irrelevance that is based solely on someone's or something's history, origin, or source rather than its current meaning or context. This overlooks any difference to be found in the present situation, typically transferring the positive or negative esteem from the earlier context. In other words, a claim is ignored in favor of attacking or championing its source...The fallacy therefore fails to assess the claim on its merit."
As Miller Jones points out the data on origins is not convincing. But even if the data were persuasive, the Genetic Fallacy would still be present. The Armstrongist use of the Genetic Fallacy has a big downside because of human history. Many social characteristics
and artifacts are somehow, in an innocuous way my view, associated with past paganism. Drums were used long before there was the knowledge of God - back in Pre-Adamic times, if you will. Even in the Bronze Age drums were explicitly connected with pagan activities and this is referred to in Jeremiah 7:31-32 - the same book where the putative Christmas Tree references are written. From Wikipedia:
"The historically most significant etymology, followed by both Jewish and Christian exegetes until the modern period, was made by the eleventh-century CE rabbi Rashi, who derived the term from Hebrew toph "drum," claiming that the drums were beaten during the sacrifice to Moloch, deriving his ideas from Plutarch's description of Carthaginian sacrifice."
This etymology has now been recently challenged but, in the abundance of caution, should not Armstrongists reject the use of drums as musical instruments of paganism? Yet at the next big musical presentation out there in Splinterdom drums will be played.
As Armstrongists select which Laws of Moses they wish to keep and how, they also select which social phenonmenon they wish to label as "pagan." This is politics not theology.
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I admit, the one thing I enjoy about Christmastime is hearing COGlodytes rant about it. Its one thing to not observe (hell, I don't), but the unprompted aggressive mode so many of them go into during December is soooo reminiscient of Southern Baptists - wanting everyone to be as miserable as they often are.
We've had a handful of scholars contribute to the many Armstrong-dissident blogs, sites, and forums over the years. Some of these were life-long students of history who actually knew how to follow an evidentiary trail, as opposed to using the Armstrong practice of proof-texting, or cherry-picking excerpts to "prove" a previously arrived at conclusion. One such person, during this very season a number of years ago, had gone back into the written records of the very earliest leaders of the Christian movement, men who had been involved in councils and discussions leading to decisions on such things as canonization of the works we use today as New Testament scripture.
I wish we had these bloggers' works saved in perpetuity, because they addressed many of the fallacies taught by Herbert W. Armstrong, fallacies which are always cited as "research" each year when we have these annual discussions about Christmas. If you are a member of one of the splinter groups, you should know that all you have to support what you think you know about Christmas, things that you believe to be deep research, are actually very shallow, and are based largely on theories and unwarranted leaps. Does it ever bother you that there are just a sentence or two in the Bible about Nimrod? That historians have never been able to establish correlation between this Biblical character and any figure in actual history? That an entire folklore has been concocted surrounding this man and all of the pagan customs he supposedly originated?
Armstrongites are generally very headstrong. You people think you know so many things to be fact, when in actuality the truth is out there and your leaders have historically taught you not to go to sources outside of your own church's literature for your answers. Why would they do they do this? On one hand, I believe that they are correct in assuming that many members would not know how the research process even works. The problem is that they forgot to include themselves in that statement. They did not know either! It always sounded really impressive, and deep for a Herman Hoeh type to quote from some esoteric ancient source to authenticate something taught by Herbert W. Armstrong. And, that actually worked for years until real scholarly types who were familiar with the original sources found those passages, and discovered that they had beeen lifted from context to make them say precisely the opposite of what they actually said if one had read the entire treatise.
One can believe that one has truth. Do you really have it? In the field of science, truth is what survives after meticulous effort is made to disprove it. Armstrongism has not survived that sort of rigorous testing or processing. You just won't know that, well......until SNAP!
What the true people of God should do is direct attention to God’s Kingdom as the true hope for peace on earth and also Jesus commanded that we commemorate his death, not his birth. Read Luke 22:19, 20. Those who still celebrate Christmas despite knowing about its pagan roots and having lack of support from the Bible for their claims are willfully sinning because they know the truth about Christmas and yet choose to do anyway betraying the God they pretend to serve. Because they know what to do what is right ( not celebrate Christmas) and choose to do it not to him it is sin.
Biblical proof we shouldn't worship Pagan ways:
"Hear the word which the Lord speaks to you, O house of Israel. Thus says the Lord, “Do not learn the way of the [pagan] nations, And do not be terrified and distressed by the signs of the heavens Although the pagans are terrified by them; For the customs and decrees of the peoples are [mere] delusion [exercises in futility]; It is only wood which one cuts from the forest [to make a god], The work of the hands of the craftsman with the axe or cutting tool. They adorn the idol with silver and with gold; They fasten it with hammers and nails So that it will not fall apart."
Jeremiah 10:1-4 AMP
“Do not worship the Lord your God in the way these pagan peoples worship their gods."
Deuteronomy 12:4 NLT
If pagans use Christmas to worship their Gods then we shouldn't use it to worship the God of the Bible it's very simple.
Pagans used financial gifts to worship their gods.
Will the ACOGs dare to reject this pagan form of worship?
T/C: Let's put your arguments to the acid test. Would you want to live in a world or for that matter in a country where everyone was exactly like you, like the members of your church, and like its leaders?
I can't even begin to imagine what a confused mess that would be! There is no way that it could be any manner of functional ecology system!
Why don't you ponder on that for a bit and think about what changes could make it better?
I agree with the guy who calls himself a true Christian because God has seven annual holy days they do not include Christmas, Easter, Halloween, New Year's , and Valentine's, among others all of which carry plain pagan roots for those who care to look God will destroy the nations who do not repent of these sins.
You gotta wonder how the joy of Christmas pans out in the Winnail household.
Sherry loves Christmas, while at best, Doug needs to keep up the appearance that Christmas is an abomination.
I bet Doug lets Sherry enjoy the holiday with decorations, music, and traditional foods (maybe even ham?!).
Meanwhile, Doug instructs the lowly LCG people to avoid such "pagan" practices.
Has anyone been invited to the Winnail's for a cup of egg nog?
Spot on!
For the narrow-minded people in the Armstrong cults, Christmas is about family togetherness! A time of reflection and gift giving. Christian love is what this Holy season represents.
Miller Jones You may want to watch this video: https://youtu.be/D11jAEKgB2o
Here you go y'all. You decide.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yei17uJeKuw
Sounds sockpuppety, but since TC is also a sockpuppet, I guess we have a puppet show going on here.
Christmas, by contrast, has long ago ceased to be significantly Christian. Everything distinctive of Christmas is pagan or secular.
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