Compassionate Shunning
Brian Jackson is a field minister serving the Florida area for The Restored Church of God. He profoundly influenced me when I first came to Headquarters in November 2012. A deacon at the time, Brian "showed me the ropes" with how to conduct myself in Wadsworth, but he also instilled in me his wisdom as a servant.
He is a very smart and patient man. He taught me the value of thinking first and keeping my mouth shut. He showed me the importance of paying attention and getting the big picture. He trained me to see a plan all the way through before attempting it. This mainly applied to physical duties on the Set-Up crew to avoid damage, but I used it in all aspects of being an RCG Headquarters employee.
I had a tremendous respect for Brian and was even proud of him when he was ordained a minister. I knew that Brian Jackson was a minister of Jesus Christ. He was a man who let God's Spirit move him. A man willing to serve and, despite challenging circumstances, always managed to have a positive can-do attitude. I never heard Brian complain.
At the time, I saw him and Kevin Denee the same way. Men who inspired those they lead.
I felt close to Brian and was sad when he and his wife were sent into the field. I was happy for him, but I lost a mentor.
Since being sent to the field, I would see him only twice a year. At the Ministerial Conference and at the Feast of Tabernacles, if we were at the same site. He was one of those men I was close enough to hug.
How Brian Jackson and his wife can continue supporting biblical fraud David C. Pack is a mystery to me. Brian knows the date-setting is wrong and, yet, allows himself to be used as an enabler and enforcer for The Restored Church of God.
He is not stupid. He is not a blind zealot. His heart must trouble him, and yet he stays.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Edmund Burke
Brian Jackson is one of those good men in RCG who do nothing and let the evil of a false prophet continue.
In Elizabeth O’Leary-Noble’s Exit Letter, she pointed out facts to Brian, who was her minister. If he were moved to re-read “Is ‘That Prophet’ Alive Today?” with open eyes, he would see how far his leader has fallen. The words of David C. Pack identify and condemn what David C. Pack is now.
Brian and his family attended the Feast of Tabernacles this year when he heard his Pastor General make these statements that proved to be utterly false.
And yet, he chose to do nothing.
He followed closely through Tammuz, Av, Elul, Tishrei, Cheshvan, and into Kislev. He chose to do nothing.
December 9 passed. Brian and his wife did not receive eternal life as David C. Pack said they would. He chose to do nothing.
Brian will pass through December 25 and accept all the excuses that have to come. Sadly, he will continue to choose to do nothing.
One of the things Brian Jackson has chosen to do is write a letter to the local brethren of RCG to instruct members to compassionately shun those who have left.
This is no boilerplate reproduction from the field ministry resources. Those are verbose and cold. No. Brian took the time to craft this email himself. It shows the kindness of his heart. Well, kindness while instructing brethren to reject those they recently called sisters in Christ.
Good afternoon All,
Hope you are off to a good week.
We understand some can choose to leave God's Church and they may attempt to contact us and share their thoughts about why they left.
This has been the pattern of the entire New Testament era.
Often one who becomes critical, divisive, hostile, or is in disagreement—doctrinally or otherwise—with the Church will leave quietly on his own accord (I John 2:19).
Even though we ask them to have no contact with the brethren, some still do.
In this regard, without getting into any details and to leave room for repentance, I must let you know that the following are no longer with us and for you to be on guard for any attempt by them to turn you away from the truth:
• Nanci Benckowsky
• Bonnie Farmer
• Elizabeth O'Leary
The goal is to protect God’s sheep—from others and, when necessary, themselves.
Let me know if you have any questions or concerns.
Brian K. Jackson
Minister
The Restored Church of God
This is the nicest “cut them off” email you could possibly get. Reading this rather than a copy-and-paste from Headquarters made me think, “Yep. That sounds like Brian.”
Brian chooses not to warn the flock about the wolf who captured the corporate sheepfold. He chooses to warn the sheep about the other sheep who fled the spiritual slaughter.
All three ladies gave permission for this email to be shared. They want everyone to see what happens to those who anoint their eyes and leave RCG. Other field ministers are far less compassionate.
The Restored Church of Another god is not where the truth lives anymore. "The Greatest Untold Story!" Series is an abomination filled with deception and confusion. David C. Pack lies to the brethren and is not led by God. He is a false prophet, a false apostle, and a blasphemer blaming God for his persistent errors.
Brian, I believe you care about your sheep. Elizabeth was making a plea to you in her letter. If you do not want to give her words validity, then re-read “Is ‘That Prophet’ Alive Today?” The case Dave makes is pretty compelling. That book was written for a time such as this.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Brian, stop doing nothing.
Marc Cebrian
26 comments:
RCG's “compassionate shunning” and PCG's “disfellowshipping in God's family love”
The current RCG cult members and PCG cult members might seem “nice” as long as you also go along with outrageous lies and nonsense continually, but might also cut off all contact with you if you say anything against the weekly lies and nonsense that David Pack makes up or the giant whoppers that little Gerald Flurry makes up.
This is not the sort of “niceness” that I want to see. I want to see something even nicer.
When a formerly "good man" uses his supposed goodness to lull others into tolerating or perpetuating evil, he is no longer a good man.
Opening and Closing Little Minds
Satanic cults like the PCG and the RCG want outsiders to be OPEN-MINDED enough to look into, listen to, read about, and fall for, their scams.
Then, these satanic cults want the people inside them to become CLOSE-MINDED enough not to look into, listen to, read about, or fall for, anything outside of the cult that could help them to escape from it.
Marc:
Is Brian Jackson a PAID field minister for Pack?
Unfortunately, being a paid individual , in ANY organization, can lead to compromise, no matter how great a person is.
Tonto, I do not know his employment status with regards to RCG. Many field ministers have another job. Being in the field is a way for the church to save money while "serving" the local congregation. Dave would often talk about a field minister "going off payroll" when they leave HQ. So, I am not sure.
To repeat: Two Herbert devised nonbiblical doctrines in all the Herb splinters/slivers: mandatory tithing and seven feasts. No. The change of the law - Heb 7:12 - by a Biblical interpretation (same Greek word for "change" in Heb 7:12 is in Heb 12:27 translated "removing"-KJV) was its REMOVAL. For feasts, all ministers please write out three times Exodus 23:14-16 and then ask yourself: where's the 14th Passover?? And note: "feasts" in Lev 23:2 should be "fixed/appointed times" which include the 3 feasts, weekly sabbaths, annual sabbaths of Tishri 1, 10, and 22.
A lot to unpack here.
First, if you are a layperson and you are out in the world working to support the RCG, you are encouraged to better yourself financially. You are encouraged to move up or out of the workplace to better your financial circumstances. I just did that this past March. Left for a competitor within my field that offered me more pay and better circumstances. So I left. And I would not have had that opportunity if I would have shunned my former co-workers who had left for this company before I did. It was my continued contact with them, and their providing good references about me, that allowed me to better my circumstances and pay.
Second, Christ fellowshipped with sinners. If you are going to go out in the world and sell the Truth to a hostile world you have to let your light shine. Shunning people is not shining a light.
Third, There are many, many 7th day organizations out there. Just like there were many, many congregations in the New Testament era. That is the "pattern". Not one, ahem, cult organization claiming to be the only place God works that shuns a bunch of well meaning people that are not buying in to the cult leaders b.s.
Fourth, Why would you want to be in an organization which supresses individual thinking and relegates the layperson to just a mind numbed sheep who prays and pays.
Fifth, This government is everything crap sounds a lot like socialism, which is a system of how cults operate. And, I would imagine is how the Devils structure works.
Sixth, The individual members of an organization have every right to leave said organization which they feel is not in their best interests. That organization has every right to shun that person after they leave. However, how does this benefit anyone? Do we just shun every person who disagrees with us. Do Republicans and Democrats never talk to each other again. Do Protestants and Catholics never associate? We do all the time in the working world.
Unfortunately, because I like Brian, but that letter is an embarrassment and is intellectually dishonest.
As Maxwell Smart might have lamented, If only COG ministers had used their BS for niceness instead of evil.
It is time to shun Herb and Dave for false prophecy. Herb said the USA would not go to war with Russia, but the USA is bankrolling the war in the Ukraine. It also has "advisors" in the war, piles of US equipment, and Ukraine is using US intelligence and satellite information. Some of the US equipment (e.g. HIMARS and the patriot missiles they are now planning to send) can only be used by highly trained US troops. A change in uniform is used to conceal the involvement of US troops. Nevertheless, it is happening. Another prophetic flop.
I grew up calling things that were seeming opposites and didn't go together as being "non sequiturs". But, about thirty years ago, the whippersnappers invented an equally attention-commanding term, "oxy-moron". And, as always is the case, the whippersnappers are way cooler, so, I'm thinking why stop with "compassionate shunning". That's not the way we roll! There is also life preserving marking, loving disfellowshipment, and ultimately merciful eternal death in the Lake of Fire. Just one big love sandwich at these "my way or the highway" splinter cults!
If this is the primary way in which love is expressed in any church group, its leader or its "god" are not worth following. Better to opt out, using the Lake of Fire. A couple minutes after you do a cannonball, no memories or pain for all eternity.
Matthew 13:
24 Here is another story Jesus told: “The Kingdom of Heaven is like a farmer who planted good seed in his field. 25 But that night as the workers slept, his enemy came and planted weeds among the wheat, then slipped away. 26 When the crop began to grow and produce grain, the weeds also grew.
27 “The farmer’s workers went to him and said, ‘Sir, the field where you planted that good seed is full of weeds! Where did they come from?’
28 “‘An enemy has done this!’ the farmer exclaimed.
“‘Should we pull out the weeds?’ they asked.
29 “‘No,’ he replied, ‘you’ll uproot the wheat if you do. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. Then I will tell the harvesters to sort out the weeds, tie them into bundles, and burn them, and to put the wheat in the barn.’”
And Christ's explanation of the parable (same chapter):
36 Then, leaving the crowds outside, Jesus went into the house. His disciples said, “Please explain to us the story of the weeds in the field.”
37 Jesus replied, “The Son of Man is the farmer who plants the good seed. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the people of the Kingdom. The weeds are the people who belong to the evil one. 39 The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world, and the harvesters are the angels.
40 “Just as the weeds are sorted out and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the world. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father’s Kingdom. Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand!
I've NEVER heard ANYONE successfully reconcile this parable with the doctrine of excommunication/disfellowshipping/shunning - NEVER!
Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix said "I've NEVER heard ANYONE successfully reconcile this parable with the doctrine of excommunication/disfellowshipping/shunning - NEVER!
Romans 16:17 Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them.
I Corinthians 5:1-13
II Thessalonians 3:6 But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.
II Thessalonians 3:14 And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed.
Titus 3:9-11 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.
In Christ's parable that you refer to, Matthew 13:38 specifically says the field is the "world", it does not say it's the "church". The craziness of RCG and ACOG's aside, taking these kind of steps in the church, while not to be taken lightly, are sometimes necessary to protect the flock and certainly are not unbiblical.
“The Kingdom of Heaven is like”...
“The field is the world”
Some thoughts by Michael J. Wilkins:
“The field is the world. The kingdom of heaven will expand beyond Israel throughout the world. The secret of the kingdom is present but hidden working in the world. It is important to note that Jesus is not giving lessons on the activities of the church in this parable. The church will be a visible institution throughout this age in service of the kingdom, but Jesus does not equate the two... His parable describes the activity of the kingdom during this age. To interpret these as characteristic of the church’s activities produces many misconceptions and misapplications.
“For example, many have mistakenly equated this parable with the church’s characteristic of true and false believers. While it may be true that we can find in many churches true and false believers, it is defeatist to suggest that Jesus declares this is the norm. Instead, Jesus shows how the kingdom of heaven will exist alongside the sons of the devil throughout this age. “The parable deals with eschatological expectations, not ecclesiological deterioration” [Carson, “Matthew,” 317; Morris, Matthew, 350]...
“The good seed is the people of the kingdom, These are the ones who have been receptive to the preaching of the message of the kingdom and have become Jesus’ disciples...
“The weeds are the people who belong to the evil one. They are the unbelievers of Jesus’ day and all those throughout this age who reject the gospel message...
“The harvest is the end of the age, a reference to the judgment that will accompany the coming of the Son of Man to consummate the establishment of the kingdom (24:3).
The harvesters are Jesus’ angels (13:39), who will accompany him to establish his kingdom and bring judgment (24:31)...” (Matthew, NIVAC, pp.485-86).
“Many in the crowd that followed him around were hoping for the arrival of the kingdom with an overt display of political and militaristic might. Their attraction to Jesus was not based so much on what Jesus intended in announcing the arrival of the kingdom, but on what they expected to get out of it - the blessings of the messianic age...
“Jesus’ own followers still do not fully understand the uniqueness of the manifestation of the kingdom of God that Jesus is instituting...
“So the parables reveals what it means for Jesus’ disciples to live as kingdom subject in a world that had not yet experienced the fully consummated kingdom of God” (ibid., pp.492-493).
“While the parables speak of the coexistence of the sons of the evil one and the sons of the kingdom in this world, there is a secondary application to the church. The parable of the wheat and weeds allows us to be aware of the plans of the enemy - that Satan will attempt to infiltrate the church. We must be aware of how to be on guard, and should encourage us to pray against the plans of Satan. Although Satan will operate in this world until the judgment, we can reduce his influence by not allowing sinful activities that give him a foothold in our communities (Eph 4:27) and by dealing effectively and quickly with sin within the community (18:15-20).
“Moreover, like a large dragnet, the kingdom of heaven will have all sorts respond to it in the preaching of the “fishers of men” (4:19). The true nature of those who are gathered in will not always be readily apparent, as Judas Iscariot sadly exemplifies. Only at the judgment will the full implication be known” (ibid., pp.503-04).
Well said sir.....
Anonymous Friday, December 16, 2022 at 10:06:00 PM PST,
Sorry, I still haven't heard anyone reconcile the parable to the teaching of excommunication/disfellowshipping/shunning. You cite a bunch of texts which supporters of the doctrine use to "prove" that the teaching is scriptural. Let's take a closer look at those texts:
Romans 16:17 - The original Greek instructs the saints to take note of people among them who stir up trouble and teach heretical things and avoid them. NOTHING in this language suggests putting someone out of the Church or treating them like they don't exist!
I Corinthians 5:1-13 - Unfortunately, we often forget that this was a letter sent by one of Christ's APOSTLES to address what he considered to be an existential threat to one of the congregations which he had nurtured. Who today can claim the mantle of an Apostle of Jesus Christ (I know, I know - a lot of ACOG folks have tried to claim that mantle, but I call BS). Moreover, the folks who quote this passage rarely seem to remember that Paul later instructed the congregation to welcome the individual back into their midst lest he "be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow" (II Corinthians 2:7).
II Thessalonians 3:6, 14 - The sense of the original Greek is once again to pull back/withdraw from any individual within the Church who is not following Paul's teaching, NOT to kick them out of the Church or treat them like they don't exist. The clear implication being that making it very clear to such individuals that you will not condone or participate in their bad behavior will make them ashamed of that behavior and resolve to change it.
Titus 3:9-11 - Once again, the admonition is to avoid the behavior, warn individuals who engage in such behavior, and avoid them if they persist in that behavior. There is absolutely NO instruction to kick anyone out of the Church or treat them like they don't exist!
We do, however, find in John's third epistle that he excoriated someone named Diotrephes for shunning and excommunicating! (See III John 9-10)
Moreover, I've always wondered how tossing one of the sheep out of the fold where he/she will be at the mercy of a roaring lion "seeking whom he may devour" is consistent with love or the goal of salvation. (See I Peter 5:8)
Finally, you failed to mention that "the good seed represents the people of the Kingdom," or that the enemy plants the weeds among THEM. Moreover, the "farmer's workers" specifically asked him "Should we pull out the weeds?" To which, the farmer answered NO! We are all the seed. God plants (calls) us and nurtures us. Please explain how any of the seeds or workers can possibly have the authority/ability to undo what the farmer has done!
Well, you know, Satan is a nice guy. He'd probably be great fun to hang out with. He knows full well that you catch more flies with sugar than salt. However, don't count on any help from him when you get in trouble, and you WILL get in trouble, and he WILL hang you out to dry.
That night of wild parties sure seemed like fun, until the hangover hit in the morning.
God gave us His law for our protection. All we have to do it follow it.
How to deal with a narcissist:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKxmFPmzzx4
How long are you going to keep deceiving the people about what is biblical or nonbiblical, 12:06? The day of judgment is coming to you. The law is still upheld in the church as per Paul's statement in Rom 3:31. You are making an argument over words (1 Tim 6:4). To change something is to remove it from one position to another, the two words meaning roughly the same 100 years ago and today. Heb 7:12 does not advocate removal of the law, you moron, because otherwise that would be in conflict with Christ's own words in Mt 5:17. The priesthood and the law were removed, changed, transferred (whatever word that suits you best) FROM THE LEVITICAL TO THE CONTROL OF THE CHRISTIAN DISPENSATION, which expounds on the higher principles of the law, both of the letter and spirit. As for Heb 12:27, removing is contrasted with remaining or staying but it doesn't necessarily mean taking away completely (which is what YOU want to do with the law). Otherwise, he could have used periaireo, aphaireo or anaireo (A COUPLE OF WHICH DO SIGNIFY THE ABSOLUTE REMOVAL OF SINS FOR EXAMPLE) instead of metathesis to convey this meaning -- It is sin that you want to remove completely but as for the law and priesthood you want it removed from the carnal Levites into the hands of the Lord to administer. (If it wasn't removed from them we would all be dead men)
Hi Lonnie, thanks for the reply:
You write:
Finally, you failed to mention that "the good seed represents the people of the Kingdom”.
Please may I refer you to the sixth paragraph of my earlier post.
Please let me clarify this Scripture:
Mt 13:37 He answered and said unto them...
Mt 13:38 The field is the world;
When Jesus said that the “the field is the world”, I take Him literally, that is, He is referring to the world, not the church.
Some observations I agree with, more or less:
“This parable does not refer to unbelievers in the professing church. The field is the world (v. 38). Thus the people of the kingdom live side by side with the people of the evil one” (NIVSB).
“... it is unlikely that the theme of a mixed church, however, important to Matthew elsewhere, was in fact the main point of the parable, at least as Matthew understood it. The field is identified in v.38 not as the church but as “the world”... What sort of “kingdom” was this that allowed opposition to continue unchecked?... The parable answers that question by a call to patience, directing attention away from the current situation to the coming judgment, when it will be made plain who are the true people of God and who are the “children of the Evil One.” God is not in a hurry, and they must be prepared to wait for his time.
“So the explanation given in these verses rightly focuses ... on the judgment of “the world” at the end of the age, when the wicked will be destroyed and the righteous will “shine” for all to see...” (R.T. Frabce, The Gospel of Matthew, NICNT, p.533).
“Of greater importance in the history of the church has been the view that this actually means that the field is the church...
“Nevertheless this interpretation is without exegetical foundation. The kingdom is a category flexible enough to be used simultaneously for the saving reign of God (so that “sons of the kingdom” can refer to those who are truly God’s people, v.38) and for his reign more broadly considered (so that the kingdom in a sense might well embrace wheat and tares; see on 3:2; 5:3; 28:18); but it is not demonstrable that “church ever has such flexibility, or that “church” is ever confused with “kingdom”...
“What must also be pointed out is how many features in the parable are not given nonsymbolic equivalents. These include the conversation between the man and his servants, the servants’ sleep, and in fact that the wheat was sown before the tares. This selective use of elements in the story is not atypical of parables (see on v.3a), and the other elements should not be allegorized” (D.A. Carson, Matthew, EBC, Vol.8, pp.325-26).
Mt 13:38b but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mt 13:42a And shall cast them into a furnace of fire:
“By way of contrast, the sons of the evil one, are described in three ways. They are seed sown by the devil (39)... The usurper prince of this world (4:8-9) has claimed their allegiance [cp. 1 Jn 3:10; John 8:44]. They do evil (41), or more literally, lawlessness. They are rebels against God’s kingly rule. And their destiny is ultimate destruction” (Michael Green The Message of Matthew, BST, p.157).
You ask:
Please explain how any of the seeds or workers can possibly have the authority/ability to undo what the farmer has done!
Sorry, but I can't understand your question in regard to the context of the parable and its interpretation.
While I am happy to acknowledge this parable's application to the Christian's relationship to the wider world, I am still at a loss to understand why you cannot see its applicability to the Church. Are you suggesting that Christians are expected to coexist and be on good terms with evildoers in the world, but turn their backs on their brothers and sisters who stumble?
In the eighteenth chapter of the Gospel of Matthew, Christ gives explicit instructions about correcting a fellow believer (Christian). After giving them the Parable of the Lost Sheep (CONTEXT), we read:
15 “If another believer sins against you, go privately and point out the offense. If the other person listens and confesses it, you have won that person back. 16 But if you are unsuccessful, take one or two others with you and go back again, so that everything you say may be confirmed by two or three witnesses. 17 If the person still refuses to listen, take your case to the church. Then if he or she won’t accept the church’s decision, treat that person as a pagan or a corrupt tax collector."
Question: In the light of your explanation about the Parable of the Wheat and Tares, how are we supposed to treat pagans and corrupt tax collectors? Have we circled back around to shunning them?
Finally, I was asking YOU to explain how the workers (evangelists and ministers) or the seeds (the people of the Kingdom) can undo the work of the farmer (God). In other words, how can a minister of lay member uproot and cast aside any person which God has called and placed in his Church? Also, how can they justify usurping the role of the harvesters (angels) at the end of the age? Is that clear enough? It is not my intention to be flip, but this heretical teaching (excommunication/disfellowshipping/shunning) has caused a great deal of harm, heartache and unnecessary anxiety down through the centuries! Please explain how this works or concede that the teaching is FALSE!
For clarification purposes, the three ladies all QUIT RCG...they were not put out. They left after proving DCP was a fraud and RCG was not teaching the truth it once did.
This letter is instructing the members still inside RCG to have no contact with these former members.
For clarification purposes, no contact = treat them like they don't exist!
The three ladies are no longer addicts. They are now in recovery.
So, we have a paradox. On one hand, I love that the people who have the potential to reinfect them are being instructed to shun them!
On the other hand, what about the good shepherd, the one who leaves the flock to find the one that wandered off?
I'll leave this to others to thrash out, but while there was always a certain amount of glee about spiting those who quit or were disfellowshipped, (I think this was seen as "righteous indignation"), I believe the shunning policy is very conducive to a person's recovery, once he or she has seen the light and have left.
Of course, this is completely different from the plights of those who left during the forst century, after having been personally taught by Jesus and the disciples/apostles. You cannot equate that with anything going on today in an ACOG, despite how desperately they all attempt to write themselves into the Bible.
Hi Lonnie,
I prepared a response your last post, but I decided not to post it - I am not going to convince you and you are not going to convince me.
But I will say that, from my perspective, Matthew 13 and 18 are two different topics. The former concerns the children of the evil One and the latter Church discipline. It appears to me that you are conflating these two situation which I find problamatic.
To be fair though:
You may also assume that “excommunication/disfellowshipping/shunning” is a heretical teaching but I don’t. For me suspension is a “painful last resort”:
“A Christian business I was associated with had steadily been losing money. We were able to trace the losses to one person on the staff of the business. He was seen alone. He strenuously denied any wrongdoing. So I as Rector and three others saw him. He confessed what he had done when faced by incriminating evidence in the presence of witness. Sometimes even that does not suffice. It is necessary to tell the church. That is a painful last resort. I have once or twice had to take it. It simply will not do to conduct these things behind closed doors. If the wrongdoer will not listen to the church, he or she must be removed from it and become an outsider, like a pagan or a tax collector (17). We must be open with people, and with the church of which they are members” (Michael Green, The Message of Matthew, BST, p.195).
In Matt 18 it is said that the brother would not listen three times. So I see no recourse but suspension.
I can relate to that. I was suspended from the WCG in 1993 also for not listening to the direction of the minister - I never went back so it ended up being a blessing for me.
I was against the “changes” and would often say so. I was upsetting those who went along with them. Though the directions of Matt 18 weren’t quite followed I still considered that the minister followed the right course, at least from his perspective - a person causing division had to go. The minister hoped that I would consider my position and come back to services.
Anonymous 12/18 @ 6:02,
You have conducted a civil/polite discussion on this topic, but we will have to agree to disagree. I find the excommunication/disfellowshipping/shunning teaching to be based more on human notions about authority, leadership, and unity than on anything found in Scripture. While using some of the same passages which Herbie employed, the Catholic Church also appeals to what they see as the necessity of enforcing conformity within any human society. Nevertheless, as I see it, THE ekklesia/church is NOT a human society. The Greek language literally suggests an assembly of folks called together by God (for his purposes).
Like you, I was once disfellowshipped from the Worldwide Church of God, and it was an extremely painful experience at the time. Looking back, I can now agree with you that it was a great blessing - one that set me on a new spiritual path and brought me into greater harmony with God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. I have seen this scenario play out too many times over the years, and I cannot personally recall a SINGLE instance when the employment of these methods produced a positive outcome for either the Church or the individual being targeted! The pain and suffering that I have witnessed are responsible for the strong rebuttal your comments generated by me. I bear you no ill will, but my animosity toward this teaching is a bottomless pit!
The leadership in God's Church is NOT supposed to look or feel like leadership in human organizations or groups - period! Christ said that he didn't want his followers lording it over each other. Leadership within the Church is supposed to be about service and nurturing love - NOT enforcing the will of an individual or the larger group.
As for a "Christian business," I've NEVER seen one! I've seen a few businesses that were run by Christians, but I don't believe that there is any such thing as a Christian business. A Christian is A PERSON who has repented, accepted Christ's sacrifice and received God's Holy Spirit - period. A group of Christians is called a Church or congregation - NOT a business. Unfortunately, all too often, we (Christians) have had a tendency to confuse who and what we are with human organizations. THE EKKLESIA is filled with real individuals with different levels of conversion and understanding - starting at different places and varying in the degree to which they yield to the guidance of God's Spirit. Unity is something that all of those individuals should be working towards, but it cannot ever be imposed, fashioned or achieved by ANY centralized human authority!
Check out Bob George Minitries to learn about the unconditional love and acceptance God and Christ have always had for all of us through us believing in the New Covenant. Herbert Armstrong taught a mixture of Law and Grace. We are supposed to be only under Grace now. Churches like his do have there place though, they are supposed to drive us to leave them so we are driven into God's grace and mercy.
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