Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!
With all the new crazy self-appointed Chief Overseers, Apostles, Prophets, Pharisees, legalists, and outright liars leading various Churches of God today, it is important to hold these agents of deception accountable.
Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
His Mr nice guy persona is the outer face of an abusive cult. The definition of a cult is that its members lives belong to the group. So rights do not exist. There's only permission slips from the minister and his boot licking elders.
I am a professional video editor, and this presentation is super cringy. The tone of the speaker doesn't match the goofy pop culture elements. He seems pretty serious, if not quite dull, in his approach. It seems like a bad copy of a lousy Youtuber.
It would at least seem more consistent if the presenter had a sarcastic or comedic tone to his voice. But only then it would only rise to the level of plain bad.
I can assure UCG, the makers of this hideous video, that as a gen x'er myself, I would not be attracted to joining their ""church". Not because of my aversion to this 6 minutes of nonsense, but because this has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity. Christians do not celebrate the Old Testament/Old Covenant holy days. They were for Israel and Israel alone, and even at that, only UNTIL Faith came (Jesus). UNTIL the shadow became the substance. BUT NOW, believers trust in the Messiah, who fulfilled all the holy days. He fulfilled the 613 commands of the Old Covenant and asks us, Jew or Gentile, to believe He is the fulfillment of the law, the prophets and the holy days. He did all that was needed for our salvation and to go back to celebrating yearly, monthly or weekly Sabbaths and holy days is to grasp the shadow, rather than the substance.
The guy in the video looks like he rarely skips a meal and they probably had him at "we're gonna show pictures of all you can eat buffets", to which he promptly said, I'm in"!! This is wise stewardship of tithe payers money? No wonder these groups are shrinking by the day.
Wow. So, the idea is to get people laughing. That way people will think you're cool, and everyone wants to hang out with you. So, haha. I want to be around those people. Oh, they're also talking about religion, well, they must be right since they are cool and all. Well, that was the idea; the reality is that it's silly.
Pilgrim, I am also a video editor by trade and found it jarring. I actually reeled at some of the cut-in bits because they were so sudden and loud, counter to his tone.
I am not a fan of on-camera talent looking so casual with the hat when talking about a church. Maybe it is my RCG left-over snobbery, but it gives me bad flashbacks for when I attended UCG in Oakland California from 2009 to 2012. One senior fellow who attending WCG would come to services in shorts and a Hawaiian shirt in the summer. (Yes, Hawaiian shirts. I once joked with him if he was heading off to vacation after services. He just laughed.)
I could not help but wonder about fair usage of some of those clips. Why am I hearing about the Feast and concerned about licensing and copyright infringement? There were some good stock images. But I struggled with the tone of the video also.
At least there was no Jelly. So, that's a positive.
"Christians do not celebrate the Old Testament/Old Covenant holy days. They were for Israel and Israel alone, and even at that, only UNTIL Faith came (Jesus). UNTIL the shadow became the substance."
DW I'm not here to argue, but you have to completely disregard some things biblically in order for your statement to be true.
If the Old Testament/Covenant holy days as you call them are done away with, then you have to explain why the Apostles were keeping holy days after Christ was already crucified. You have to explain why prophecy speaks of a future time that ALL people (not just Israelites) will be keeping the feast. You have to explain why scripture says as being gentiles we are a Jew after the heart, even though we are not one after the flesh. You have to explain why the Apostle Paul said follow me as I follow Christ, so if he kept holy days after the fact...then should you not follow Paul and Christ? How do you explain away that Christ is the same, yesterday, today, and forever? This list can go on and on. I know it is a hard pill to swallow, but the word of God is clear on the matter regardless. I've heard the arguments using the scripture you are referring to in order to do away with this, but then I must ask you, are the 10 commandments done away with then? Food for thought.
I didn't open the video, because based on certain similarities, my first reaction was, "WTF does Michael Moore have to do with Armstrongism or any of the ACOGs???"
Also, anybody who thinks this guy is somehow cool is sadly mistaken. His ball cap is facing the wrong way for that! First impressions are very important and he blew the opportunity to make a cool impression.
What I think is incredibly funny is that the effective recruitment techniques used by cults were once both feared and legendary. Some young person would go to the store, the mall, or just somewhere to hang out, disappear, and their family would find out months later that they were with Hari Krisna, the Children of God, the Church of Scientology, Rev. Sun Myung Moon, or the people who chant "Nam yoho renge kyo". Isn't Q-anon attracting large numbers of young people? How is it that Armstrongism has missed the boat, never being able to dial into recruitment on the levels that the old man once did through his radio broadcasts?
I believe the answer to that involves Gamaliel, but that's just me!
Does UCG actually teach, as stated in that video, that you can't use your Festival tithe for the other two Festival seasons?
Does UCG actually, teach, as stated in that video, that you can use Festival tithe primarily to buy stuff you will be using long after the Feast is behind you? Or is that just to hook you in, and once you're in you'll find out about sending in "Excess Second Tithe" and that they don't want you to stay in a cheap room and spend most of the tithe on toys for your children (and for you, as per that one clip in the video)?
And I know it was just stock footage, but I'm nearly certain that I saw unclean food. Sloppy, guys!
So, the claim is made that the Holy Days, the Feasts, were put in place and arranged from the start, at creation. If that’s so, how can the Sabbath in the Western Hemisphere then be on today’s Saturday? Wouldn’t the Sabbath have necessarily traveled with humans as they migrated east from their origin in today’s Middle East, taking the uninterrupted Sabbath all the way to the New World, the Western Hemisphere?
If the Feasts have been in force from the beginning, so must the Sabbath. Simply, by this reckoning the Biblical international dateline had to have been in the middle of the Atlantic, not the Pacific. The peoples living in the New World, the Western Hemisphere, were they to have accurately kept the Sabbath in, say, 1491 would be a day earlier than did Columbus and all of the rest of the Europeans who then settled in the Americas.
The world is a sphere, so there must be a line that separates or begins each new day; the international dateline. Biblically, that line must have been in middle of the Atlantic, because people migrated into North America from Asia, and before that, from the Middle East, carrying it with them. During all that time the Sabbath must have never been changed, even if they didn’t keep it. No lost or gained days.
Simply, in the New World keeping the Sabbath starting at sundown on Friday is a day late and a shekel short. Biblically, the historical international dateline, from the beginning, had to be in the Atlantic, not the Pacific. Armstrongists, all along you’ve been with your Sabbaths a day late and a shekel short. Biblically and historically, in the Western Hemisphere, the Sabbath always started on today’s Thursday Sundown. Still does today.
I am a believer in our Father’s feasts and appointed times and yes they are still for our observance, not just for Jews. His feasts, appointed times, Sabbaths and laws are serious matters, not to be taken lightly. This video does not show the reverence I believe is needed in explaining these matters. While they mean well, this whole thing needs a do over.
Zechariah 14:18 states that God will send a plague on those nations that refuse to keep the feast of Tabernacles on Christ's return. So it seems that the OT feast days will be kept in the millennium.
I've met someone who argued the exact opposite — that Sabbath-keepers everywhere east of Israel were keeping the Sabbath and holy days a day too early. I think the rationale was that the calendar must be based on Jerusalem observations, and then the rest of the world must follow after Jerusalem.
It seems to me to be a failure of our heritage, that after reading the entire body of scripture, we could end up devoting our energy to arguments about the timing of the Sabbath and holy days. It is a massive failure to comprehend the message of salvation contained in God's word.
So, the claim is made that the Holy Days, the Feasts, were put in place and arranged from the start, at creation.
This is a bold admission by UCG, to concede that God didn't give the Feasts to the Hebrews. This would explain why the Canaanites were keeping several of the "Biblical" feasts long before there's any evidence of Hebrews doing the same.
Wow, UCG did a great job. I'm no fan of them, but that is a great teaching video. Very down to earth and relatable to the normal guy on the street. Those God is calling will be intrigued and might feel the need to investigate more. Those "outside" will simply mock it, as we see on this thread.
I find the comments somewhat humorous. A lot of "attack the messenger" but no legitimate criticism of the content. There is the obligatory "the feasts are for the old testament jews only" argument, but like the speaker in the video said, that will not hold up if you truly investigate it in the scriptures.
"...they are still for our observance, not just for Jews."
Here's another thing you should do too then:
Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue: And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring: That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God. I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am the LORD your God. Num 15:38-41
Lets hear the excuses why you'll keep some old covenant things, but not all old covenant things.
Why would it be a hard pill to swallow? The Armstrong selected laws are easy. To warm a seat on saturday instead of sunday is hard? To not eat pork is hard? To attend a few other days a year and then vacation with friends for a week is hard? To NOT go on mission trips is hard? To NOT spread the Gospel at an inconvenient time because your church has a magazine and/or telecast is hard? To NOT engage "the world" and to NOT try to make it better is hard?
COG religion is easy religion; do a few things and don’t concern yourself with others because “it’s not their time”. The question is not the difficulty of Armstrong law, but rather what are the actual instructions in the life of a Christian. The Jews and Jewish Christians often continued many of the Jewish customs and the apostles felt it to be fine, but they also said not to claim one day is greater than another...I know the COG arguments for that, but they really do not fly. If the Sabbath and Holy Days were critical to salvation, why were they not taught by the apostles? Why not at least one teaching? And the Sabbatismos argument is not a good one, in fact this is obviously a future rest as the author of Hebrews prefaces the verse with reference to Joshua not yet providing a rest even in the promised land…there is another in the future.
Also, why are food and day issues consistently put up to one's conscience? Couldn't they have said once "well of course we don't mean the Sabbath or we don’t men pork"? Why? With all the Gentiles (the majority) coming to Christianity and the fact they were not sabbath keepers or clean food observers why don't the apostles explicitly teach the sabbath and food laws? In the old testament, they taught it time after time to a people that were totally familiar with the sabbath and food laws, but no such teaching to Gentiles?? Were the Gentiles so much better than the Children of Israel that they perfectly did kept the sabbaths and food laws that it became an afterthought. I highly doubt that. Look at the COGs today, they continually talk about the sabbath and holy days to those that are currently observing it to the hurt of teaching about Christ. Even Jesus did not spend time building the sabbath up. Why not if so critical for salvation? I’ll stop there. I think just looking at the Bible and the progression to the New Covenant makes this issue clear. I once thought it so complicated, but it really isn’t.
The video is over 6 minutes long. Whether you like it or not the primary criticism levied on this thread is legitimate: the old covenant and holy days are not applicable to CHristians today.
Armstrong selected those parts of the law for observance that aren't too hard or don't make you stick out. Besides if one sticks out they may not be able to get a good job and pay tithes. Let's be reasonable! /sarc/
I am in the Church of God and while I agree with the theology in the video, the execution is not very good. I think if they just removed the pop culture references and kept with a serious tone it would be a more effective video. I guess the producers of this view those in the world as some sort of childish idiots. Unfortunately those in the world will view this as cringy. I hope someone in UCG reads this thread and reconsiders their direction with this. The presenter seems lik a nice guy and deserves better editing than this. They should edit it more like a Prager U video.
Another thing, Regarding Tabernacles in the future, it is also stated that animal sacrifices will be done. How do you reconcile that? Obviously, Christ has died once for all. Here are a few possible solutions: 1) that this was prophesied for a time that began in the past, 2) That it is metaphorical, 3) that the Millennium is different than we think and these scriptures are for those that have not accepted Christ yet in the Millennium, thus they are not in the New Covenant (yet).
This can explain why those that have accepted Christ as their Savior today and are within the New Covenant are not doing those things of the Old Covenant today. Yet, those in the future may yet be required to observe tabernacles and sacrifices until they have accepted Christ's Sacrifice and enter the New Covenant. Obviously, much more could and probably should be said.
Response to 7:39 a.m. Apparently you are not aware of the number of individuals who ARE wearing tzits tzits these days, or the number of individuals who still believe in the circumcision of their sons on the 8th day, or …These practices don’t save them, but these individuals are under grace, amazing grace, and they want to keep their Father’s instructions. Do you realize that Abraham wasn’t circumcised until many years after coming into the faith? Was it 20+ years? Do you understand that the religious leaders in Messiah’s days required circumcision previous to being in the body of Messiah and followers of the Father’s instructions? That was the problem being dealt with at the Jerusalem counsel in Acts, NOT the doing away with what the Father instructed. It’s a heart issue. It’s not a works issue. The heart needs circumcision before the flesh. Hoping you won’t continue to criticize what you don’t understand. Shalom.
To Truth @5:58. Thank you for your comments and I appreciate that you are not here to argue. I am with you on that!
I have read your list of what must be explained in order to believe what I stated was accurate, so I will do my best.
Let me state upfront, I am a born again believer, saved by grace. As a Christian, the Jewish/Old Testament holy days were given by God to Moses, enumerated in Exodus 23 just after the 10 Commandments. These set of prescriptive laws and ordinances were between God and Israel, all those who where present there on Mt. Sinai, signified they understood what God expected from them, hence their reply "All that God has commanded we will do". I am a Gentile, not a Jew. I did not enter into that Covenant with God. I entered into the New Covenant with God, after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, when I confessed with my lips and believe in my heart that God sent His Son, in fulfillment of the Scriptures, to die in my place, for my sins. The New Covenant, offered to anyone (Jew or Gentile) who willingly believes that truth of the Gospel, has made the terms and conditions of the Old Covenant obsolete. The author of Hebrews makes that clear in Chapter 8 and says in vs. 13, "When he, God, says, "a new COVENANT", he declares the first one obsolete. And what is obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing." Hebrews 9 goes on to outline the proper way to worship God according to the Old Covenant, and how that would all change now that Jesus had come. In Hebrews 9:11 ffv, it says "But when Christ came as high priest of good things which have come to be, He entered once, for all, with His own blood." Verse 15 states, "This is why He is mediator of a new COVENANT; since His death has taken place for deliverance from transgressions committed under the first COVENANT,those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance." That is crucial...that brings me to another of your points. God/Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. Agreed, but that is talking about their nature. There has been a change in the priesthood. Jesus is a priest forever, according to the order of Melchizedek, not Aaron or Levi. Hebrews 7 speaks about this and vs 12 states, "When there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change of law". You have got to read the Books of Romans, Hebews and Galatians!! They are awesome! My fingers are getting tired, so I will try to wrap this up! Paul kept the Lord's Supper, not a holy day. Jesus was a fulfillment of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, being the sinless, unleavened bread of life. He fulfilled First Fruits, as the first fruit, from God. He (partially) fulfilled feast of Tabernacles, as Immanuel, God with us and will complete that fulfillment at His second coming, never to depart from us again. He was our Passover lamb, thus fulfilled. ) I'm sure I missed some, oh...I do agree with you that Scripture says we will celebrate some holy days with God, forever, in eternity. I can't say with certainty which feasts or who attends them. Remember Paul tells us in Romans we are to worship God as when we were called. Finally, as for the law...if your read Romans, Hebrews and particularly Galatians, the answer is chrystal clear! Christ is the end of the law (Romans 10:4). Whew! I sure hope you read this! All the best to you!
Yes!! Like a Prager U video. Young people don’t need grownups to act like them. They need loving and intelligent role models who are mature, fatherly and with sound words.
Looking forward to you being able to leave Armstrongism behind fully. RCG never had the truth WCG never had the truth. It’s cults not turtles all the way down.
I recently read a comment where a woman wrote that after 30 years of marriage, her husband began to use her as a punching bag. As a result she tried to kill herself four times. She wrote that she yearns for death from old age as a means of deliverance. Should such demons in human flesh be allowed into God's kingdom? I bet that those who believe yes, secretly believe that it's OK providing that it's someone else that's been eaten alive, and not them.
Ro 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Ro 7:14a For we know that the law is spiritual: (AV).
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Ro 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Ro 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
“... in view of so much misunderstanding of Paul’s theology of the law, we should stress that Paul ...[does not say]... that the law as such has been brought to an end in Christ - how could he in light of such assertions as 3:31; 8:4; and 9:31?” (James D.G. Dunn, Romans 9-16, WBC, p.597).
Deut 30:14 But the WORD is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may obey it. (BSB). Ro 10:8 But what saith it? The WORD is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
“Some interpreters think Paul is working with an implicit identification of Christ with the law, so what the Old Testament says about the law, Paul can apply to Christ.
“But we think a more likely explanation emerges when we consider the real purpose of Paul’s use of this language from Deuteronomy. This becomes clear in verse 8: The message about righteousness by faith, preached by Paul and the other apostles, is both accessible and understandable. The notion of God’s “word” is the key bridging concept. In Deuteronomy the word takes the form of a command; here in Romans, the word is the message of faith. As God made available his will to his old covenant people, so now he makes available his will for the new covenant. Yet the new covenant word has an added element of “nearness.” Christ, as the One who brings the law to its culmination (v.4), also writes that law on the hearts of God’s people, as was predicted by Jeremiah in his famous “new covenant” prophecy (Jer 31:31-34). So in Christ, the law has come near to God’s people in a way that it never had before. All that is now required of human beings is that they accept God’s word in faith” (Douglas J. Moo, Romans, NIVAC, pp.335-36).
Just 2 quick noteworthy errors. It's not a sacrifice to tithe and also you will be gone longer than 7 days from work or school. Most COG members are gone about 2 weeks. They travel far-flung distances by land,sea, and air.
Marc Cebrian said: “Maybe it is my RCG left-over snobbery, but it gives me bad flashbacks for when I attended UCG in Oakland California from 2009 to 2012. One senior fellow who attending WCG would come to services in shorts and a Hawaiian shirt in the summer. (Yes, Hawaiian shirts. I once joked with him if he was heading off to vacation after services. He just laughed.)”
I actually wished ACOGs would let go of the notion that Christian men have to conform to the 1950s American formal attire that they implicitly if not explicitly compel men to wear. It’s like they’ve completely disregarded James 2:2-12 which in itself demonstrates that early Christians had freedom to choose what they wore at assemblies. I would love to be able to wear a tank top, shorts and flip flops during summer without judgement. What do they think the throngs of people wore when Jesus was preaching to them like on the hilltop to the 5000 for instance?!
NB Re circumcision. American circumcision and Talmudic brit periah circumcision—which are basically the same—are not the Biblical brit milah circumcision. So I personally would just leave the foreskin intact rather than be mutilated with its entire removal as Judaics and American circumcisers ignorantly do.
1) A hotel room isn’t a tabernacle or tent or “temporary dwelling” but a permanent structure. It’s a room in a building.
2) Tithing on money isn’t scriptural. And so saving 10% of your income to spend on a church mandated holiday at a church sponsored feast site isn’t scriptural either.
There's just a lot of silliness inherent in attempting to back-write aspects of today's level of advancement into the first century. I don't know how we get to mandating suits, ties, and laced oxford shoes from an era when robes and sandals were the only clothing that most people knew, and frankly, there were not even modern detergents, steam irons, shoe polish, deodorants, or toothpaste to keep odors and appearance moving in pleasing directions.
If Jesus were in human form today, our modern abilities to capture and publish human images would place the media and all of humanity in violation of some of the ten commandments.
Claiming to base church dress codes on the practices of the first century, or even the era of Moses is about as ludicrous as using "thee" and "thou" in one's prayers because Jesus and the disciples spoke King James English!
The consciences of members of certain of the ACOGs have been altered. The needle on the fanaticism meter has gone way too far to the right if people actually feel guilty for watching their ACOG leader's you tube video in the privacy of their own homes while wearing normal casual clothing.
There is no biblical evidence that the festivals were kept before Moses. Moses wrote the first five books and never mentioned Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Enoch, Noah, or anyone else observing the festivals. How would Abraham have observed the Passover, what meaning would it have had with him? All the instructions and reminders of the festivals tie them back to the nation of Israel and the escape from Egypt. Most of the COG-published Statements of Belief state that the festivals were given to the nation of Israel, because they can’t use the Bible to say they were established before Moses. The COGs then will say that the festivals “must have been kept” by the forefathers because the forefathers were faithful. The COGs can’t admit that the festivals had an ending with the New Covenant so they have to argue that the festivals did not have a beginning with Moses and the nation of Israel. The festivals had an established beginning with Moses and an established end with the New Covenant.
So true. This example of the Jewish leadership twisting and perverting God's instructions has remained with us to this day. Circumcision as it is currently done is brutal and abusive, and there is no need for it. While it is possible to get the brit milah circumcision today, I think I would just leave it undone rather than risk mutilation.
44 comments:
Thanks for sharing this! I might have missed it otherwise.
His Mr nice guy persona is the outer face of an abusive cult. The definition of a cult is that its members lives belong to the group. So rights do not exist. There's only permission slips from the minister and his boot licking elders.
I am a professional video editor, and this presentation is super cringy. The tone of the speaker doesn't match the goofy pop culture elements. He seems pretty serious, if not quite dull, in his approach. It seems like a bad copy of a lousy Youtuber.
It would at least seem more consistent if the presenter had a sarcastic or comedic tone to his voice. But only then it would only rise to the level of plain bad.
I can assure UCG, the makers of this hideous video, that as a gen x'er myself, I would not be attracted to joining their ""church". Not because of my aversion to this 6 minutes of nonsense, but because this has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity. Christians do not celebrate the Old Testament/Old Covenant holy days. They were for Israel and Israel alone, and even at that, only UNTIL Faith came (Jesus). UNTIL the shadow became the substance. BUT NOW, believers trust in the Messiah, who fulfilled all the holy days. He fulfilled the 613 commands of the Old Covenant and asks us, Jew or Gentile, to believe He is the fulfillment of the law, the prophets and the holy days. He did all that was needed for our salvation and to go back to celebrating yearly, monthly or weekly Sabbaths and holy days is to grasp the shadow, rather than the substance.
The guy in the video looks like he rarely skips a meal and they probably had him at "we're gonna show pictures of all you can eat buffets", to which he promptly said, I'm in"!! This is wise stewardship of tithe payers money? No wonder these groups are shrinking by the day.
Wow. So, the idea is to get people laughing. That way people will think you're cool, and everyone wants to hang out with you. So, haha. I want to be around those people. Oh, they're also talking about religion, well, they must be right since they are cool and all. Well, that was the idea; the reality is that it's silly.
Just imagine what would happen if the narrator showed up at a Feast of Tabernacles service dressed like that!
Its a very novel approach for COGdom, sadly!
Pilgrim, I am also a video editor by trade and found it jarring. I actually reeled at some of the cut-in bits because they were so sudden and loud, counter to his tone.
I am not a fan of on-camera talent looking so casual with the hat when talking about a church. Maybe it is my RCG left-over snobbery, but it gives me bad flashbacks for when I attended UCG in Oakland California from 2009 to 2012. One senior fellow who attending WCG would come to services in shorts and a Hawaiian shirt in the summer. (Yes, Hawaiian shirts. I once joked with him if he was heading off to vacation after services. He just laughed.)
I could not help but wonder about fair usage of some of those clips. Why am I hearing about the Feast and concerned about licensing and copyright infringement? There were some good stock images. But I struggled with the tone of the video also.
At least there was no Jelly. So, that's a positive.
DW said Jan 5, 2023 at 2:06 pm.
"Christians do not celebrate the Old Testament/Old Covenant holy days. They were for Israel and Israel alone, and even at that, only UNTIL Faith came (Jesus). UNTIL the shadow became the substance."
DW I'm not here to argue, but you have to completely disregard some things biblically in order for your statement to be true.
If the Old Testament/Covenant holy days as you call them are done away with, then you have to explain why the Apostles were keeping holy days after Christ was already crucified. You have to explain why prophecy speaks of a future time that ALL people (not just Israelites) will be keeping the feast. You have to explain why scripture says as being gentiles we are a Jew after the heart, even though we are not one after the flesh. You have to explain why the Apostle Paul said follow me as I follow Christ, so if he kept holy days after the fact...then should you not follow Paul and Christ? How do you explain away that Christ is the same, yesterday, today, and forever? This list can go on and on. I know it is a hard pill to swallow, but the word of God is clear on the matter regardless. I've heard the arguments using the scripture you are referring to in order to do away with this, but then I must ask you, are the 10 commandments done away with then? Food for thought.
I didn't open the video, because based on certain similarities, my first reaction was, "WTF does Michael Moore have to do with Armstrongism or any of the ACOGs???"
Also, anybody who thinks this guy is somehow cool is sadly mistaken. His ball cap is facing the wrong way for that! First impressions are very important and he blew the opportunity to make a cool impression.
What I think is incredibly funny is that the effective recruitment techniques used by cults were once both feared and legendary. Some young person would go to the store, the mall, or just somewhere to hang out, disappear, and their family would find out months later that they were with Hari Krisna, the Children of God, the Church of Scientology, Rev. Sun Myung Moon, or the people who chant "Nam yoho renge kyo". Isn't Q-anon attracting large numbers of young people? How is it that Armstrongism has missed the boat, never being able to dial into recruitment on the levels that the old man once did through his radio broadcasts?
I believe the answer to that involves Gamaliel, but that's just me!
Positive comment--- The "Back Drop" was straight.
Negative Comment-- The guy is dressed like a truck driver . Nothing wrong with that per se, but try going to services like that and see what happens.
All in all, at least UCG is trying to think outside of the box, instead of trying to keep on a culturally time traveling back to AC 1967.
Does UCG actually teach, as stated in that video, that you can't use your Festival tithe for the other two Festival seasons?
Does UCG actually, teach, as stated in that video, that you can use Festival tithe primarily to buy stuff you will be using long after the Feast is behind you? Or is that just to hook you in, and once you're in you'll find out about sending in "Excess Second Tithe" and that they don't want you to stay in a cheap room and spend most of the tithe on toys for your children (and for you, as per that one clip in the video)?
And I know it was just stock footage, but I'm nearly certain that I saw unclean food. Sloppy, guys!
So, the claim is made that the Holy Days, the Feasts, were put in place and arranged from the start, at creation. If that’s so, how can the Sabbath in the Western Hemisphere then be on today’s Saturday? Wouldn’t the Sabbath have necessarily traveled with humans as they migrated east from their origin in today’s Middle East, taking the uninterrupted Sabbath all the way to the New World, the Western Hemisphere?
If the Feasts have been in force from the beginning, so must the Sabbath. Simply, by this reckoning the Biblical international dateline had to have been in the middle of the Atlantic, not the Pacific. The peoples living in the New World, the Western Hemisphere, were they to have accurately kept the Sabbath in, say, 1491 would be a day earlier than did Columbus and all of the rest of the Europeans who then settled in the Americas.
The world is a sphere, so there must be a line that separates or begins each new day; the international dateline. Biblically, that line must have been in middle of the Atlantic, because people migrated into North America from Asia, and before that, from the Middle East, carrying it with them. During all that time the Sabbath must have never been changed, even if they didn’t keep it. No lost or gained days.
Simply, in the New World keeping the Sabbath starting at sundown on Friday is a day late and a shekel short. Biblically, the historical international dateline, from the beginning, had to be in the Atlantic, not the Pacific. Armstrongists, all along you’ve been with your Sabbaths a day late and a shekel short. Biblically and historically, in the Western Hemisphere, the Sabbath always started on today’s Thursday Sundown. Still does today.
I am a believer in our Father’s feasts and appointed times and yes they are still for our observance, not just for Jews.
His feasts, appointed times, Sabbaths and laws are serious matters, not to be taken lightly. This video does not show the reverence I believe is needed in explaining these matters. While they mean well, this whole thing needs a do over.
Zechariah 14:18 states that God will send a plague on those nations that refuse to keep the feast of Tabernacles on Christ's return. So it seems that the OT feast days will be kept in the millennium.
Bit rich coming from this cringe worthy blog of noneities. How many fake Facebook profiles do you have ?
I've met someone who argued the exact opposite — that Sabbath-keepers everywhere east of Israel were keeping the Sabbath and holy days a day too early. I think the rationale was that the calendar must be based on Jerusalem observations, and then the rest of the world must follow after Jerusalem.
It seems to me to be a failure of our heritage, that after reading the entire body of scripture, we could end up devoting our energy to arguments about the timing of the Sabbath and holy days. It is a massive failure to comprehend the message of salvation contained in God's word.
The world is a sphere
Sadly there are quite a few in today's ACOGs who would disagree with this.
So, the claim is made that the Holy Days, the Feasts, were put in place and arranged from the start, at creation.
This is a bold admission by UCG, to concede that God didn't give the Feasts to the Hebrews. This would explain why the Canaanites were keeping several of the "Biblical" feasts long before there's any evidence of Hebrews doing the same.
Wow, UCG did a great job. I'm no fan of them, but that is a great teaching video. Very down to earth and relatable to the normal guy on the street. Those God is calling will be intrigued and might feel the need to investigate more. Those "outside" will simply mock it, as we see on this thread.
I find the comments somewhat humorous. A lot of "attack the messenger" but no legitimate criticism of the content. There is the obligatory "the feasts are for the old testament jews only" argument, but like the speaker in the video said, that will not hold up if you truly investigate it in the scriptures.
"...they are still for our observance, not just for Jews."
Here's another thing you should do too then:
Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue: And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring: That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God. I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am the LORD your God. Num 15:38-41
Lets hear the excuses why you'll keep some old covenant things, but not all old covenant things.
4.20 am
It's a massive failure on your part to not comprehend the message of weeping and gnashing of teeth contained in God's word.
Truth,
Why would it be a hard pill to swallow? The Armstrong selected laws are easy. To warm a seat on saturday instead of sunday is hard? To not eat pork is hard? To attend a few other days a year and then vacation with friends for a week is hard?
To NOT go on mission trips is hard? To NOT spread the Gospel at an inconvenient time because your church has a magazine and/or telecast is hard? To NOT engage "the world" and to NOT try to make it better is hard?
COG religion is easy religion; do a few things and don’t concern yourself with others because “it’s not their time”.
The question is not the difficulty of Armstrong law, but rather what are the actual instructions in the life of a Christian.
The Jews and Jewish Christians often continued many of the Jewish customs and the apostles felt it to be fine, but they also said not to claim one day is greater than another...I know the COG arguments for that, but they really do not fly. If the Sabbath and Holy Days were critical to salvation, why were they not taught by the apostles? Why not at least one teaching? And the Sabbatismos argument is not a good one, in fact this is obviously a future rest as the author of Hebrews prefaces the verse with reference to Joshua not yet providing a rest even in the promised land…there is another in the future.
Also, why are food and day issues consistently put up to one's conscience? Couldn't they have said once "well of course we don't mean the Sabbath or we don’t men pork"? Why? With all the Gentiles (the majority) coming to Christianity and the fact they were not sabbath keepers or clean food observers why don't the apostles explicitly teach the sabbath and food laws? In the old testament, they taught it time after time to a people that were totally familiar with the sabbath and food laws, but no such teaching to Gentiles?? Were the Gentiles so much better than the Children of Israel that they perfectly did kept the sabbaths and food laws that it became an afterthought. I highly doubt that. Look at the COGs today, they continually talk about the sabbath and holy days to those that are currently observing it to the hurt of teaching about Christ.
Even Jesus did not spend time building the sabbath up. Why not if so critical for salvation? I’ll stop there. I think just looking at the Bible and the progression to the New Covenant makes this issue clear. I once thought it so complicated, but it really isn’t.
Anon606,
The video is over 6 minutes long. Whether you like it or not the primary criticism levied on this thread is legitimate: the old covenant and holy days are not applicable to CHristians today.
Amazing grace,
Armstrong selected those parts of the law for observance that aren't too hard or don't make you stick out. Besides if one sticks out they may not be able to get a good job and pay tithes. Let's be reasonable! /sarc/
I am in the Church of God and while I agree with the theology in the video, the execution is not very good. I think if they just removed the pop culture references and kept with a serious tone it would be a more effective video. I guess the producers of this view those in the world as some sort of childish idiots. Unfortunately those in the world will view this as cringy. I hope someone in UCG reads this thread and reconsiders their direction with this. The presenter seems lik a nice guy and deserves better editing than this. They should edit it more like a Prager U video.
Truth,
Another thing, Regarding Tabernacles in the future, it is also stated that animal sacrifices will be done. How do you reconcile that? Obviously, Christ has died once for all. Here are a few possible solutions: 1) that this was prophesied for a time that began in the past, 2) That it is metaphorical, 3) that the Millennium is different than we think and these scriptures are for those that have not accepted Christ yet in the Millennium, thus they are not in the New Covenant (yet).
This can explain why those that have accepted Christ as their Savior today and are within the New Covenant are not doing those things of the Old Covenant today. Yet, those in the future may yet be required to observe tabernacles and sacrifices until they have accepted Christ's Sacrifice and enter the New Covenant. Obviously, much more could and probably should be said.
Response to 7:39 a.m.
Apparently you are not aware of the number of individuals who ARE wearing tzits tzits these days, or the number of individuals who still believe in the circumcision of their sons on the 8th day, or …These practices don’t save them, but these individuals are under grace, amazing grace, and they want to keep their Father’s instructions. Do you realize that Abraham wasn’t circumcised until many years after coming into the faith? Was it 20+ years? Do you understand that the religious leaders in Messiah’s days required circumcision previous to being in the body of Messiah and followers of the Father’s instructions? That was the problem being dealt with at the Jerusalem counsel in Acts, NOT the doing away with what the Father instructed. It’s a heart issue. It’s not a works issue. The heart needs circumcision before the flesh. Hoping you won’t continue to criticize what you don’t understand. Shalom.
To Truth @5:58. Thank you for your comments and I appreciate that you are not here to argue. I am with you on that!
I have read your list of what must be explained in order to believe what I stated was accurate, so I will do my best.
Let me state upfront, I am a born again believer, saved by grace. As a Christian, the Jewish/Old Testament holy days were given by God to Moses, enumerated in Exodus 23 just after the 10 Commandments. These set of prescriptive laws and ordinances were between God and Israel, all those who where present there on Mt. Sinai, signified they understood what God expected from them, hence their reply "All that God has commanded we will do". I am a Gentile, not a Jew. I did not enter into that Covenant with God. I entered into the New Covenant with God, after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, when I confessed with my lips and believe in my heart that God sent His Son, in fulfillment of the Scriptures, to die in my place, for my sins. The New Covenant, offered to anyone (Jew or Gentile) who willingly believes that truth of the Gospel, has made the terms and conditions of the Old Covenant obsolete. The author of Hebrews makes that clear in Chapter 8 and says in vs. 13, "When he, God, says, "a new COVENANT", he declares the first one obsolete. And what is obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing." Hebrews 9 goes on to outline the proper way to worship God according to the Old Covenant, and how that would all change now that Jesus had come. In Hebrews 9:11 ffv, it says "But when Christ came as high priest of good things which have come to be, He entered once, for all, with His own blood." Verse 15 states, "This is why He is mediator of a new COVENANT; since His death has taken place for deliverance from transgressions committed under the first COVENANT,those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance." That is crucial...that brings me to another of your points. God/Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. Agreed, but that is talking about their nature. There has been a change in the priesthood. Jesus is a priest forever, according to the order of Melchizedek, not Aaron or Levi. Hebrews 7 speaks about this and vs 12 states, "When there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change of law". You have got to read the Books of Romans, Hebews and Galatians!! They are awesome! My fingers are getting tired, so I will try to wrap this up! Paul kept the Lord's Supper, not a holy day. Jesus was a fulfillment of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, being the sinless, unleavened bread of life. He fulfilled First Fruits, as the first fruit, from God. He (partially) fulfilled feast of Tabernacles, as Immanuel, God with us and will complete that fulfillment at His second coming, never to depart from us again. He was our Passover lamb, thus fulfilled. ) I'm sure I missed some, oh...I do agree with you that Scripture says we will celebrate some holy days with God, forever, in eternity. I can't say with certainty which feasts or who attends them. Remember Paul tells us in Romans we are to worship God as when we were called. Finally, as for the law...if your read Romans, Hebrews and particularly Galatians, the answer is chrystal clear! Christ is the end of the law (Romans 10:4). Whew! I sure hope you read this! All the best to you!
You must keep Gods laws.
You must keep Gods laws.
Which gods? Allah? Thor? Ahura Mazda? Quetzalcoatl? L. Ron Hubbard?
The Bible one.
Yes!! Like a Prager U video. Young people don’t need grownups to act like them. They need loving and intelligent role models who are mature, fatherly and with sound words.
Looking forward to you being able to leave Armstrongism behind fully. RCG never had the truth WCG never had the truth. It’s cults not turtles all the way down.
"Christ is the end of the law."
I recently read a comment where a woman wrote that after 30 years of marriage, her husband began to use her as a punching bag. As a result she tried to kill herself four times. She wrote that she yearns for death from old age as a means of deliverance.
Should such demons in human flesh be allowed into God's kingdom?
I bet that those who believe yes, secretly believe that it's OK providing that it's someone else that's been eaten alive, and not them.
Part 2
Ro 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Ro 7:14a For we know that the law is spiritual: (AV).
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Ro 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Ro 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
“... in view of so much misunderstanding of Paul’s theology of the law, we should stress that Paul ...[does not say]... that the law as such has been brought to an end in Christ - how could he in light of such assertions as 3:31; 8:4; and 9:31?” (James D.G. Dunn, Romans 9-16, WBC, p.597).
Deut 30:14 But the WORD is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may obey it. (BSB).
Ro 10:8 But what saith it? The WORD is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
“Some interpreters think Paul is working with an implicit identification of Christ with the law, so what the Old Testament says about the law, Paul can apply to Christ.
“But we think a more likely explanation emerges when we consider the real purpose of Paul’s use of this language from Deuteronomy. This becomes clear in verse 8: The message about righteousness by faith, preached by Paul and the other apostles, is both accessible and understandable. The notion of God’s “word” is the key bridging concept. In Deuteronomy the word takes the form of a command; here in Romans, the word is the message of faith. As God made available his will to his old covenant people, so now he makes available his will for the new covenant. Yet the new covenant word has an added element of “nearness.” Christ, as the One who brings the law to its culmination (v.4), also writes that law on the hearts of God’s people, as was predicted by Jeremiah in his famous “new covenant” prophecy (Jer 31:31-34). So in Christ, the law has come near to God’s people in a way that it never had before. All that is now required of human beings is that they accept God’s word in faith” (Douglas J. Moo, Romans, NIVAC, pp.335-36).
Just 2 quick noteworthy errors. It's not a sacrifice to tithe and also you will be gone longer than 7 days from work or school. Most COG members are gone about 2 weeks. They travel far-flung distances by land,sea, and air.
Marc Cebrian said: “Maybe it is my RCG left-over snobbery, but it gives me bad flashbacks for when I attended UCG in Oakland California from 2009 to 2012. One senior fellow who attending WCG would come to services in shorts and a Hawaiian shirt in the summer. (Yes, Hawaiian shirts. I once joked with him if he was heading off to vacation after services. He just laughed.)”
I actually wished ACOGs would let go of the notion that Christian men have to conform to the 1950s American formal attire that they implicitly if not explicitly compel men to wear. It’s like they’ve completely disregarded James 2:2-12 which in itself demonstrates that early Christians had freedom to choose what they wore at assemblies. I would love to be able to wear a tank top, shorts and flip flops during summer without judgement. What do they think the throngs of people wore when Jesus was preaching to them like on the hilltop to the 5000 for instance?!
NB Re circumcision. American circumcision and Talmudic brit periah circumcision—which are basically the same—are not the Biblical brit milah circumcision. So I personally would just leave the foreskin intact rather than be mutilated with its entire removal as Judaics and American circumcisers ignorantly do.
2 points of criticism I’d like to make:
1) A hotel room isn’t a tabernacle or tent or “temporary dwelling” but a permanent structure. It’s a room in a building.
2) Tithing on money isn’t scriptural. And so saving 10% of your income to spend on a church mandated holiday at a church sponsored feast site isn’t scriptural either.
Mark 7:9
There's just a lot of silliness inherent in attempting to back-write aspects of today's level of advancement into the first century. I don't know how we get to mandating suits, ties, and laced oxford shoes from an era when robes and sandals were the only clothing that most people knew, and frankly, there were not even modern detergents, steam irons, shoe polish, deodorants, or toothpaste to keep odors and appearance moving in pleasing directions.
If Jesus were in human form today, our modern abilities to capture and publish human images would place the media and all of humanity in violation of some of the ten commandments.
Claiming to base church dress codes on the practices of the first century, or even the era of Moses is about as ludicrous as using "thee" and "thou" in one's prayers because Jesus and the disciples spoke King James English!
The consciences of members of certain of the ACOGs have been altered. The needle on the fanaticism meter has gone way too far to the right if people actually feel guilty for watching their ACOG leader's you tube video in the privacy of their own homes while wearing normal casual clothing.
See Ambassador College could create jobs for young people, but that’s not here today.
There is no biblical evidence that the festivals were kept before Moses. Moses wrote the first five books and never mentioned Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Enoch, Noah, or anyone else observing the festivals. How would Abraham have observed the Passover, what meaning would it have had with him? All the instructions and reminders of the festivals tie them back to the nation of Israel and the escape from Egypt. Most of the COG-published Statements of Belief state that the festivals were given to the nation of Israel, because they can’t use the Bible to say they were established before Moses. The COGs then will say that the festivals “must have been kept” by the forefathers because the forefathers were faithful. The COGs can’t admit that the festivals had an ending with the New Covenant so they have to argue that the festivals did not have a beginning with Moses and the nation of Israel. The festivals had an established beginning with Moses and an established end with the New Covenant.
@ Saturday, January 7, 2023 at 4:49:00 AM PST
So true. This example of the Jewish leadership twisting and perverting God's instructions has remained with us to this day. Circumcision as it is currently done is brutal and abusive, and there is no need for it.
While it is possible to get the brit milah circumcision today, I think I would just leave it undone rather than risk mutilation.
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