You would do/say anything to avoid keeping God's Law
Anyone who dares to criticize Armstrongite theology is usually met with this accusation. In their worldview, most of the folks who profess to be Christians simply don't want to obey God. Of course, this is rooted in their belief that Christians are obligated to obey what they characterize as the eternal spiritual principles outlined in Torah. From their perspective, this also insulates them against the obvious criticism that they are cherry picking among the various dos and don'ts outlined therein. For the critics of their theology, however, it seems like the Armstrongite would do just about anything to justify their obsession with obeying the provisions of Torah which they cherish.
For the Armstrongite, those Catholics and Protestants are willfully disobedient to God. They don't want to keep the Sabbath. They don't want to keep God's Holy Days. They'd rather observe those pagan holidays. They'd rather have their ham and bacon than obey God's dietary laws. Likewise, the LGBTQ community simply doesn't want to obey Leviticus 18:22. They'd rather wallow in their perversity than obey God. For the Armstrongite, these folks are the latest rendition of what happened in the Garden of Eden. "They just want to decide for themselves what constitutes good and evil!"
They simply cannot fathom that those "so-called Christians" could be motivated by the same desire to obey God - to be within His will - which motivates them! They insist that their critics are trying to negate God's laws - to justify ignoring them. The notion that those folks might actually love God and want to be part of His Kingdom is completely foreign to them. And, although they insist that they too believe that their salvation is entirely dependent on Jesus Christ, they are not bashful about quickly following that up with an assertion that God will NOT accept anyone into His Kingdom who doesn't obey those "eternal spiritual principles" of Torah! "If they really loved God, they'd obey His commandments!"
For most Christians (including those of us who have successfully emerged from the delusion of Armstrongism), however, it is clear that God inaugurated a New Covenant through Jesus Christ - one with better terms and promises than were included in the OLD one. For us, Torah pointed to Jesus of Nazareth and was FULFILLED by him. For us, Jesus summarized Torah into two great principles: Love for God, and love for neighbor - eliminating the need to cherry pick among those dos and don'ts. Like Jesus, James and Paul, we see the Law as a comprehensive whole - which is NOT severable). We believe that if you commit to obeying even one of its provisions, you are obligated to observe the whole. Hence, for us, Christians are obligated to obey the intent or "spirit" of the Law as Christ summarized it. Moreover, we ONLY do that as a way of demonstrating our love for God and as a manifestation of the new entity which Christ's work has created in us - NOT as something which is necessary to gain entrance in God's Kingdom! In this way, we believe that we are among those who "keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
Hence, for those of you who insist on obligating yourselves to observe some or all of the provisions of Torah and claim to be disciples of Christ, you may want to take a closer look at these issues! If not, I sincerely hope your Torah observance works out for you. Even so, please don't worry about those of us who have decided to rest in what Jesus Christ has accomplished for us - we'll be fine!
Lonnie Hendrix
59 comments:
How many of the ACOG folks who blast pork-eaters are doing so while wearing clothes made of mixed fabrics (Leviticus 19:19)?
Well said. Armstrongists are quick to accuse others of lawlessness and slow to recognize their own perfidy. There is a command that is in the Torah and directly related to the Sabbath. It is not a part of the cancelled ceremonial law nor is it a part now lapse ministration of death. This is it:
"Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day."
I will grant this has to do with kindling a fire for work (cooking, smithing) and not for heating. God does not want you to sit miserably in a freezing home on the Sabbath. We have the example of manna to support the idea of food preparation outside the boundaries of the Sabbath.
But how many Armstrongists really follow this law that is putatively a part of God's eternal moral law and written on their hearts? My guess is that none of them even think about it. Nor do they think about going to a restaurant and forcing through circumstance someone else to kindle a fire for work.
Avoiding the keeping of the law is really a problem for Armstrongists trying to keep the Torah. They just can't quite make themselves do it. For Christians, we observe the Law of Christ (Sermon on the Mount and any behavioral norms given in the text of the NT) so we don't have the divided mind, at least on this topic, the plagues Armstrongists.
Scout
I thought the accusation was "you just want to go out and sin nonstop", which always struck me as a bit silly.
The sinners who are SLAVES TO SIN accuse the righteous of being slaves to the laws of God.
That's what lawbreakers do: misrepresent scripture. The Biblical Galatians 5:1 which is: "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage."....is quite different than the Galatians 5:1 in this posting. Ever heard of the law of liberty??
Another great article Lonnie. You summed up the position of New Testament Christians perfectly and mirrored the understanding of orthodox Christianity the past 2000 years.
What baffles me about this whole argument is the following. Even IF you granted that BI is correct (which it has been time and again refuted) and consider yourself a "spiritual Jew", you run into the same issue. By the time we get to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, neither Jew nor Greek (gentile) are under the law. A believing Jew, today, is saved the exact same way that a gentile is.. solely through Jesus. Secondly, you run into the problem of the Apostle Paul. What do you do with Paul. Was he lying when he wrote that "Christ is the end of the law" or when he wrote "we are NOT under the law, but grace" or that you are twice cursed if you believe law keeping will make you at peace with God. Was God just tricking us? Why would God have inspired Paul to write the Book of Galatians, swaths of Romans and most of Hebrews, among others, which state the polar opposite? If mankind could keep the law, Jesus death would not have been needed. But God tells us that all have fallen short, so He sent Jesus, for us. A SINGULARITY had occurred. God Almighty, in the flesh, died for our sins. Game changer.
Part of the problem, IMHO, is that you cannot take a verse here and a verse there to get the truth on any Biblical subject. You must consider the ENTIRETY of Scripture. The Sabbath is a great example. It started out as God resting from His finished work of creation. Then it shifted to a sign of the Mosaic Covenant, then again to be a sign to Israel that He had delivered them from Epyptian slavery (that is the "remember" part of the 4th commandment). It was also meant to separate Israel from all the other nations on Earth. Their dress, food and Sabbath all set them apart. Missing in the New Testament are the instructions to everyone else on earth who never did these things, how to do them. What would a gentile know about these things? But any instruction to people who lived far away from the Middle East on how to do these things is totally absent in the NT. Why? Because Jesus came. He fulfilled the law, every jot and tittle. Then what Paul writes begins to make more sense.
Everyone who has received Jesus as Savior is sealed and indwelled by the Holy Spirit. He will NEVER encourage the believer to commit murder or adultery. He will never guide us into known sin. The entirety of the system was forever changed by what happened on the Cross. Why, as Paul says, anyone would want to take that yoke of bondage upon them again, which neither they nor their fathers could keep, is beyond me. Stitch the veil that was torn in two back up. Run passed Calvary BACK to Sinai. No. Jesus suffered and died for me and I will not take that perfect sacrifice and annul it by thinking that I can add anything to it. That is grossly offensive to Jesus. Faith. It is all about faith, for the last 2000 years. You cannot mix law and faith or you have fallen from the favor of God and severed yourself from Jesus. God help people see that.
In view of the above, might want to take a look at this decidedly non-COG view:
"Paul had no intention to found a new religion in opposition to Judaism because he was not converted from one religion to another, namely from Judaism to Christianity, a bad one to a good one. Eisenbaum argues that Paul remained Jewish, even after his Damascus experience, in fact he was thoroughly Jewish all his life 'ethnically, culturally, religiously, morally, and theologically.'”
https://denverseminary.edu/the-denver-journal-article/paul-was-not-a-christian-the-original-message-of-a-misunderstood-apostle/
Someone brought up this to a splinter group. Why do you guys go out to restaurants and tip people on the Sabbath after service? You are not observing the preparation day. Or why might one pay for gas on the sabbath? Other people who are working are serving you? Many of them don’t know how to respond.
The Law of Liberty which James spoke about is NOT Torah Law. The context of his remarks makes this very plain:
James 1:19 Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; 20 for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God. 21 Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. 24 For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. 25 But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.
James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. (ESV)
The Law of Liberty is based on Christ's distillation of Torah: Love for God and love for neighbor. Once again, if you are determined to obey some of the provisions of Torah, you are obligating yourself to obey ALL (and Christ has already done that for you). Christ wants his followers to obey the spirit/intent of the Law. Legalists get themselves mired in the structural and procedural and ignore or forget the substance (the really important part). In other words, making Torah into the Law of Liberty is misrepresenting Scripture!
All of them lol Nice point! Still waiting on my palm trees to make my sukkot
DW,
I appreciate your eloquent comments and give a hardy "Amen" to God helping folks to see this foundational TRUTH!
I've always found it interesting to hear "law-abiding" COG members justify breaking the speed limit.
I find that I enjoy life much more when there aren't any Armstrongites present. In order to become an Armstrongite, you actually lose the spirit of man (your sense of humanity in dealing with others).
It's too bad their programming makes it impossible for us to have any sort of relationship with them. But, it's all good. Thankfully, we'll be able to reach them and teach them how to live during the hundred year period.
I saw someone refer to the Bible as "the goatherders' guide to the galaxy". Couldn't help but laugh at that one.
The law is not slavery. The law is freedom. Freedom from people who want to murder, steal, lie, fornicate with my wife, and destroy my day of rest and turn me into a slave.
1. The speeding limit is not a moral law.
2. They were not law abiding members.
Since "every day is the Sabbath" there is no more day of rest so your employer can make you work seven days a week. Slavery at its finest. While promising liberty they themselves are slaves to corruption.
Galatians 3:24 is the most despised verse of the Book of Galatians for COG cult leaders who demand the law be kept.
This is a greatly misunderstood verse. Now what "was" the law? It "was" a schoolmaster unto minor children. The word here translated "schoolmaster" in the Greek original indicates a slave who acted as a tutor to children.
Next, who are meant by the minors who were under its exacting demands? Simply, and only, the Jewish people. They were under the law, but the Gentiles were not. Here Paul is writing to Gentile believers and declaring what the law applied to those who were under it. He is always very careful in his use of "us" or "our," in contrast to "you" or "your"; sometimes he carefully distinguishes between "we" (the Jews) and "ye" (the Gentiles), and at times his "we" embraces believers of both Jews and Gentiles. If there is any doubt about the meaning, the context should settle it.
Notice that the words "to bring us" arc in italics in most Bibles, thus indicating that the words were not in the original Greek, but are supplied by the translators according to their judgment, which in this case was faulty. Read without the italicized words, it is simply, "the law was our schoolmaster unto Christ," or "until Christ came." The Apostle did not say that this "slave-tutor" was intended for the purpose of bringing us (or anyone) to Christ, but rather that it acted with due severity to those under it until Christ came.
The next verse (Gal. 3:25) says, "But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." He does not say, "after Christ is come," but after "faith" came. True, it is after Christ came, but the point is that it is after faith in the Lord Jesus came. The Jews who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ after He came, died, and rose again, were no longer under the old schoolmaster, the law. They had been delivered from it by the death of Christ.
Then the Apostle goes on to say, "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.... There is neither Jew nor Greek... for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:26, 28. When it becomes a matter of faith in Christ Jesus, the Jews and Gentiles shared alike in the blessings of faith-they are one in Christ. And so the Apostle drops the "us" and "we" when he speaks of faith and the blessings of it. The believing Jews are no longer under the law for any purpose whatsoever; they, with the believing Gentiles, belong to Christ and are duly subject to Him.
Therefore, we affirm that the law did not bring anyone to Christ; that was not its purpose. It was added because of sin, that "sin might become exceedingly sinful." Before the law was given, man was lawless, pleasing himself with no thought of living for his Creator, but when the law was given to a favored class-the Jew-it proved that the man was not only lawless without the law, but a law-breaker when it was given. It became a ministry of death and condemnation (2 Cor. 3), and Paul says that it deceived him and slew him; he found that that which was holy, just, and good proved to be unto death (Rom. 7:7-12).
The law cannot give life, but it has power to condemn all who are under it, for all have sinned. It cannot bring anyone to Christ, nor is it a rule of life for the believer. P. Wilson
Eh, just go down the list of the 10 commandments and say, it's ok to ignore this one, and this one, and this one, all the way down the list. If you have any sense at all you'll see how silly Lonnie's argument is.
1John 5:3
" Anonymous Anonymous said...
Someone brought up this to a splinter group. Why do you guys go out to restaurants and tip people on the Sabbath after service? You are not observing the preparation day. Or why might one pay for gas on the sabbath? Other people who are working are serving you? Many of them don’t know how to respond.
Tuesday, June 27, 2023 at 11:39:00 AM PDT"
This is how you separate those that worship God from those that worship HWA.
https://www.blowthetrumpet.org/asabbathtest.htm
'nuff said.
Mixed fibres is not mixed fabrics.
“ www.blowthetrumpet.org”
This has to be one of the worst CoG sites out there. Just one step above Bob Thiel’s lies.
It’s real name should be “Toot Your Horn”
Math. 5
17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Math. 7 v 23
And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness! '
Christ was the “end” of the law, meaning the goal of being Christ like.
“ www.blowthetrumpet.org”
This has to be one of the worst CoG sites out there. Just one step above Bob Thiel’s lies.
It’s real name should be “Toot Your Horn”
To Bob's credit, he doesn't have a prominent MAKE A DONATION button at the top of his page like these "Blow the Trumpet" grifters do.
11:39
When I was in Big Sandy, there was a WCG family that had a grocery store. They contracted to have other non-WCG people to operate the store on Saturday. It served the community to do this. As I understand, the contractors even received the revenue from the store for that day.
Church Administration made the decison that they would have to shut down on Saturday. The grounds for that must have been a piece of work. Yet, as one WCG member pointed out to me, you can see a caravan of ministers and their families in fleet cars leaving the Big Sandy campus to go to Longview for dinner after Sabbath Services every Saturday.
The meme: If a change in policy bites into the hide of the Armstrongist ministry, it will not be adopted, no matter what the Torah says.
Well, I've finally been getting around to reading the Bhagavad Gita, and may end up reading the entire Mahabharata. So far, encountering some very interesting ideas. I doubt that a typical COG member would read past maybe the first twenty verses, but that's the natural result of all those years of intense and skillful programming. There is some good material on ego, and the down side of being a slave to the five senses. Several retainable nuggets.
This is a document written right about the time the Goatherder's Guide to the Galaxy was written, but there is most definitely a vastly different ethnic flavor to it.
To Bob's credit, he doesn't have a prominent MAKE A DONATION button at the top of his page like these "Blow the Trumpet" grifters do.
Actually, Bob's CCOG.ORG page has a donation button right there at the top. It's his personal vanity Cogwriter page that doesn't beg for your money.
One thing I’ve always wondered was how does one keep the sabbath or Holy days in captivity. Such as Daniel and his friends. Or Jeremiah and many others. The angels even appeared to to them “outside the congregation.” They even talk about the persecuted church in the wilderness.
Church Administration made the decison that they would have to shut down on Saturday. The grounds for that must have been a piece of work. Yet, as one WCG member pointed out to me, you can see a caravan of ministers and their families in fleet cars leaving the Big Sandy campus to go to Longview for dinner after Sabbath Services every Saturday.
The answer is obvious. The church family should have added a dine-in deli space to their grocery store.
Part 1
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
"The law ... whether spelt out in a code or implanted in the conscious, is God's law, ‘holy and just and good' (7:12). If, as Paul insists, it was not given as the means of justification, why was it given? To this question the letter to the Romans provide a variety of answers, which may be arranged under four principle heads.
Neh 10:29 ... to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the servant of God...
“(i) It was given to be a revelation of God and his will. The distinction between right and wrong is not simply a matter of social convention: it is rooted in the being and character of God, and is written into the constitution of man, created as he has been in the image of God. Because the law is God's law, it is, like God himself, ‘true, and righteous altogether' (Ps 19:9)...
“(iii) It was given to bring sin to light, and to lead sinners to cast themselves on the pardoning grace of God. While in theory the person who keeps the law will live by it (10:5), in practice no-one is justified by the works of the law, because of universal failure to keep it perfectly (3:20a, 23). The innate human tendency to go to contrary to the will of God maintains itself in concrete acts of disobedience when his will is revealed in the form of specific commands commandments (5:13), so that ‘through the law comes knowledge of sin' (3:20b; cf. 7:7). But those who experienced the law's power to bring sin to light, together with its inability to procure for them a righteous standing in God's sight, are the more ready to cast themselves in faith on the grace of God brought near as the sole means of their justification. Thus, as Paul puts it in another letter, the ‘law was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith' Gal 3:24). But now Christ has come, he ‘is the end of the law, that every one who has faith may be justified (Rom 10:4). Not only has he fulfilled the law himself, by his perfect obedience to the will of God, but since God's way of righteousness has been opened up in him, he marks the supersession or ‘end' of the law as even a theoretical means of justification. Those who are justified by faith in him are ‘not under the law but under grace' (Rom 6:14-15).
“(iv) It was given to provide for the believer's life. Thanks to the indwelling of the Spirit in those who are ‘in Christ Jesus', the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled in them by a divine spontaneity as they live ‘according to the Spirit' (Rom 8:3-4). But even so Paul finds it proper at a later point in the letter to lay down fairly detailed guide-lines for the lives of Christians, so that by experience they may ‘prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect' (Rom 12:1-2). These guide-lines coincides with what Paul elsewhere calls ‘the law of Christ' (Gal 6:2). While he himself was ‘not under law but under grace' so as to ‘serve not under the old written code but in the new life in the Spirit' (Rom 7:6), yet he could speak of himself as ‘not being without law towards God but under the law of Christ (1 Cor 9:21). But the law of Christ is the law of love which he himself embodied and which he bequeathed as a ‘new commandment' to his disciples. Moreover, the law of love sums up and brings to perfection all the commandments of the Mosaic law (Rom 13:8-10; Gal 5:14)...
Part 2
“Paul's gospel is thus fully absolved from the charge of antinomianism. When men and women have been justified by faith, right is still right, wrong is still wrong, and the will of God is still the rule of life. But for them the will of God is not simply enshrined in an external code of regulations; it is implanted within their hearts as a new principle of life. Like Paul, they are for evermore subject to the ‘law of Christ'. The detailed resemblance between the ethical directions of Romans 12:1-15:4 and our Lord's sermon on the Mount (Mt 5-7) amply entitles those directions to be described as ‘the law of Christ'. The law of Christ is no more able to justify the sinner than the law of Moses was; whether expressed in the ethical directions of Romans 12:1-15:4 or the Sermon on the Mount. Christ's law of love sets a higher standard than even the Ten Commandments. ‘The Sermon on the Mount is not, as many people fondly imagine nowadays, the fulfilment or essence of the Gospel, but it is the fulfilment of the Law' (A.R. Vidler, Christ's Strange Work, (1944), p.14). It represents the standard by which the disciples of Christ - those who have been justified by faith in him - ought to live. Those into whose hearts the love of God has been ‘poured' by the Holy Spirit are empowered by the same Spirit to fulfil the law of Christ by that love to God and mankind which is the reflection of God's own love, and their proper response to it" (F.F. Bruce, Romans, TNTC, pp.50-56).
Lk 24:44 And he said unto them ... all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
“The law is thus important to the church because it witnesses to the salvation which comes in Christ...
Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
“Paul is reading the torah as a narrative has come to see Jesus as the decisive chapter in an otherwise unfinished story. He is the one to whom the torah is directed. But that does not mean a negation of the legislative dimensions of the torah, only a fresh perspective on it.
1 Cor 9:21 .... (though I am not free from God's law
but am under Christ's law) ... (NIV).
"He can call it "the law of Christ" (cf. 1 Cor 9:20-21). By that he does not mean a different code or document; it is the Mosaic law, but summed up in the command to love and interpreted in the light of Christ.
“... love radicalizes the law. It deepens demands and makes them more thorough-going and pervasive. At the same time, the command to love does not replace the law, as if the law being summarized were no longer necessary. Love does not always tell one exactly how to respond or what to say in the many ambiguous situations people face daily. Neither does the law; but in numerous cases passages like the ten commandment when read in the light of Christ gives positive definition to the loving will of God. They help to prevent love from becoming soft sentimentality or merely abstract principle. The church still needs the law to throw light on the human situation and love to keep that law from being rigidly interpreted” (Charles B. Cousar, Galatians, Interpretation, pp.81-83).
Part 3
In the Messianic Age:
Eze 46:1 “Thus says the Lord GOD: The gate of the inner court that faces east shall be shut on the six working days, but on the Sabbath day it shall be opened, and on the day of the new moon it shall be opened.
Eze 46:3 The people of the land shall bow down at the entrance of that gate before the LORD on the Sabbaths and on the new moons.
“Just as work was to be done for six days and on the Sabbath the Israelite was to rest, so for six days the inner court’s east gate would remain closed but on the Sabbath it would be open for worship (vv.1, 2c)” (Ralph H. Alexander, Ezekiel, EBC, Vol.6, p.986).
“While this ordinance also assumes the continued relevance of the Decalogue (Exod 20:8-11; Deut 5:12-15), here the concern is the sanctity not so much of the day but of the place where Yahweh is to be worshiped...
“On these Sabbaths and new moon festivals the citizens of the restored community of faith shall gather and pay homage to Yahweh by prostrating themselves at the entrance of the inner gate” (Daniel I. Block, Ezekiel 25-48, NICOT, p.671).
Eze 46:9 “When the people of the land come before the LORD at the appointed feasts...
“At the annual festivals, God’s people are required to present themselves and prostrate themselves before the Lord (46:9)” (Iain M. Duguid, Ezekiel, NIVAC, p.519).
Anonymous in three parts,
I applaud your Herculean efforts in attempting to make the case for Christian observance of the Sabbath, but I have found fault with some of your interpretations of Scripture as it relates to that subject.
In Part 1, you reference a remark from Paul's epistle to the saints at Rome where the apostle denies that he is abrogating the law through faith - that he is establishing it. I find that this is a common error among Armstrongites. It is inaccurate to say that Christ, Paul or anyone else abrogated the Law. Christ FULFILLED the Law for us. Hence, in this sense our faith in Christ establishes Torah's importance (and I have written extensively about how Torah points to Christ and how Paul used Torah to preach Jesus). Nevertheless, the fact that Christ FULFILLED Torah for us renders our observance of it redundant and unnecessary.
Thus, while you are correct in asserting that the Law "was given to be a revelation of God and his will," you fail to point out that that revelation was given to Moses FOR THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL! After all, the Torah is the Book of the Covenant. It outlines the terms of God's covenant with the people of ISRAEL. It was NOT addressed to Gentiles, and Gentiles were exempted from following those terms by the Jerusalem Council (whose deliberations are referenced in Acts and Paul's letter to the Galatians).
Moreover, while I agree with you that Paul's writings are "absolved from the charge of antinomianism," Christ's summary of Torah into those two great principles (Love for God and neighbor) comprehends the spirit and intent of Torah. Hence, once again, all of the individual dos and don'ts are rendered irrelevant and redundant. Christ, Paul, Peter, James, and John enjoined New Covenant Christians to apply those two commandments to every situation and circumstance they would face in this life, and he promised them the Holy Spirit to help them in that endeavor. As for the future, that is another matter. We are discussing what is required of Christians in the PRESENT.
This thread indicates why Paul wrote: "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. Titus 3:9.
Christians prefer to be justified - made righteous by the finished work of Jesus.
The alienated Armstrongites prefer to try to become righteous by keeping some (but not all) of the law.
COGs avoid preaching the many verses about justification because those verses mess with their efforts to keep the people enslaved to trying to qualify for the Kingdom while degrading of the value and work of Savior Jesus.
Romans 3:20-22
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
Galatians 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
The Christians who are made righteous by the righteousness of Jesus enjoy peace with God.
Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Only Jesus was able to keep the 10 commandments. Stop beating people up with legalism to control them & steal their money.
I admit I wonder what could be accomplished with all the effort that's been spent flinging verses.
" Anonymous Anonymous said...
This thread indicates why Paul wrote: "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. Titus 3:9.
Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 4:49:00 PM PDT"
It also proves John 6:44
Trying to teach someone without God's spirit about the Sabbath is like trying to describe color to someone blind from birth.
It is not good practice to set doctrine based upon using implicit scriptural references as a means to refute explicit scripture.
Miller 2:36
I agree with your statement but have a couple of observations.
You wrote, "Nevertheless, the fact that Christ FULFILLED Torah for us renders our observance of it redundant and unnecessary."
Armstrongists believe that we Christians are anti-nomian. HWA pounded into their minds the false idea that Christians believe in a form of grace that is a license to sin. When you make the statement above, Christians know what you mean but Armstrongites jump out of their skins to loudly condemn this statement as lawless. It is important for us pre-empt all the arm-waving by stating once in a while that Jesus fulfilled the OT laws in order to make way for a new law, the Law of Christ. On the other hand, I am not sure what good this will do for people whose rationality has been compromised. In 2015, 54 percent of Republicans believed Barack Obama to be a Muslim. Some people are the same yesterday, today and forever.
You also wrote, "...you fail to point out that that revelation was given to Moses FOR THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL!"
Armstrongists, of course, believe they are the children of Israel. It is worthwhile to point out that the Jerusalem Council did not endorse the Law of Moses for Jews but another approach for Christians. There is one way to salvation for everyone and that is through Jesus. Peter said at the Jerusalem Council:
"On the contrary, we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”
The operative phrase is "just as they will". In other words, the formulation for salvation decreed for Gentiles is also what works for Jews. This renders Torah observance liturgical/cultural except where certain laws are brought forward into the Law of Christ.
Scout
Only Jesus was able to keep the 10 commandments.
That's why God set up the sacrificial system. Jesus' sacrifice was the perfection of that system. But please be careful. If you say that the sacrificial system was insufficient, you are indirectly saying not only that God is a liar and a sadist, but also that Jesus' sacrifice must also have been insufficient.
Scout,
I agree with your characterizations of the Armstrongist view and appreciate your effort to repackage what I said to make it more palatable to them. I myself continue to observe the Sabbath, but I am not under any delusion that doing so will earn my salvation or a place in God's Kingdom. The charge of antinomianism and of "doing away with God's Law" is specious. As you alluded to in your remarks, Christ put in place a comprehensive summary of Torah for Christians - the Law of Love. While both Laws were sanctioned by God, the new one is universal and really more rigorous (as it goes directly to the intent of one's heart).
Isaiah 55:7 "let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous his wicked thoughts.."
The old WWCG line that God only demanded physical obedience to His laws in the old testament is not true. Christ gave no "new" command by stating that to even think adulterous thoughts is sin. He only reminded His Pharisaic generation what's in the OT.
That a dichotomy can exist between what's in the heart and physical behavior is ridiculous.
anon840,
Hebrews 10:4 says the blood of bulls and rams cannot take away sin. Jesus's perfect sacrifice did take away sin for those who believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior.
I found your comment disturbing for multiple reasons. To think for a moment that the effectiveness of our Lord's Sacrifice succeeds or fails on whether animal sacrifices are effective is a horrible blasphemy.
Anonymous Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 10:07:00 AM PDT,
You said: "That a dichotomy can exist between what's in the heart and physical behavior is ridiculous."
So, a married man lusting after a woman (in his heart), but being physically faithful to his wife (behavior) isn't a dichotomy?
Being filled with hate and anger toward a person (heart), but refusing to pick up a knife and stab that person isn't a dichotomy?
Yeah, I see what you mean - ridiculous!
Part 1
Hi Leonnie, thanks for the complement. Just as you find fault with some of my interpretations, I also do not agree with some of your interpretations, :).
Ge 12:2a And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Ge 12:3b and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people...
Ex 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation...
"But Israel is called beyond itself to a vocational covenant within the Abrahamic covenant... Israel's obedience is ultimately for the sake of being a kingdom of priests among the other peoples of the world (19:4-6)... Obedience remains central for the sake of witness and mission to the world. And God's tabernacling presence undergirds Israel on that journey" (Terence E. Fretheim, Exodus, IBCTP, p.22).
You write:
"...you fail to point out that that revelation was given to Moses FOR THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL! After all, the Torah is the Book of the Covenant. It outlines the terms of God's covenant with the people of ISRAEL.".
I disagree.
Under the OC, Israel's mission to the world was one of "being". In the NC Israel's mission will be one of "being" with an addition of "going".
(Under the OC Israel had the law; under the NC Israel will also have the law with an addition of the ‘spirit').
Old Covenant Mission to the Gentiles
Dt 4:6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
Dt 4:7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for?
Dt 4:8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?
1Ki 8:41 Moreover concerning a stranger, that is not of thy people Israel, but cometh out of a far country for thy name's sake;
1Ki 8:42 (For they shall hear of thy great name, and of thy strong hand, and of thy stretched out arm;) when he shall come and pray toward this house;
1Ki 8:43 Hear thou in heaven thy dwellingplace, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for: that all people of the earth may know thy name, to fear thee, as do thy people Israel;...
"... Israel definitely had a sense of mission, not in the sense of going somewhere but of being something. They were to be the holy people of the living God YHWH. They were to know him for who he is, to preserve the true and exclusive worship [of] YHWH, and to live according to his ways and laws within loyal commitment to their covenantal relationship with him. In all these respects they would be a light and witness to the nations.
"... the nations were portrayed in the Old Testament as witness of all that God was doing in, for or to Israel... the expectation of Israel's faith and worship (if not always the outcome of their practice) was that the nations would come to benefit from that salvation and give thanks for it. This meant that the nations would eventually acknowledge and worship Israel's God, YHWH, with all the concomitant responsibilities and blessings of such worship" (Christopher J. H. Wright, The Mission of God, (Nottingham: Inter-Varsity Press, 2006), pp.504, 455).
Part 2
New Covenant Mission to the Gentiles
Isa 49:5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
"The prophet Isaiah surely called his nation to function actively as a missionary to the Gentiles and nations at large. The case for an active missionary call to Israel is exceedingly strong in the two Servant Songs of Isaiah 42 and 49.
"Once it is admitted that Israel also functioned and was designated as the "Servant of the Lord," it is difficult to limit her involvement in the spread of the gospel simply to a passive role of centripetally calling the nations of the world to herself. She must bring the religious teaching, usually translated "bring justice," to the nations. The instruction as to what is right must come from those who have been entrusted with the oracles of God.
"But she was marked out long ago in the time of Abraham "to be a covenant to the people" of the earth. Once the word "people" is shown to be equal to the Gentile nations of the earth, then it must mean all the Gentiles and peoples of the world are to be consolidated in the very same covenant that Yahweh had made with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David and that Jeremiah spelled out in the New Covenant. All these covenants had the same basic core even though new features were added. But the people who were included in the blessing of these covenants were the same. They were initially given to Israel so that Israel could share them with all the peoples of the earth.
"What really puts the final clincher on this argument is that the task of being "the light of the Gentiles" is assigned to the Servant. In this role, Yahweh will take the hand of the remnant of Israel and guide them in the work of witnessing. If any doubts still remain, then notice how the apostle Paul takes this identical word given to the Servant and declares in Acts 13:47 that this is the same word that explains why he, too, went to the Gentiles. The command, then, was not limited to the Messiah as Servant, but also embraced the remnant of Israel.
"If any doubts remain as how far Israel was to go with this message, that too is abundantly clear in this text of Isaiah: it was "to the ends of the earth."
"Such a witness must not be carried out of Israel's own power, but the Holy Spirit would come on this remnant like rain on a dry and thirsty land. So Israel must witness on behalf of the Lord... All their speaking up as servant-messengers must reach out to beckon the Gentiles until all humanity was a chance to know the at the Lord is the only Savior, Redeemer, and Mighty One over all" (Walter C. Kaiser, Jr, Mission in the Old Testament, (Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 2000), pp.62-63).
Kaiser argues that Israel had a mission of “going” to the nations under the OC. But this is not the case.
“Jonah is of course an exception to this principle, but to use him in support of an alleged missionary mandate in the Old Testament begs the hemeneutical question of the book's intention, which is notoriously converted...” (Wright, ibid., p503)
Part 1
Ac 15:20 But [alla] that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Ac 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
"The strong adversative conjunction ... (alla, "But") cues the shift in the gravity of James's concern from "Judaizing" repentant Gentiles to "gentilizing" repentant Jews..." (Robert W. Wall, The Acts of the Apostles, NIB, Vol.10, p. 220).
Lev 17:10 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.
Lev 18:6 None of you are to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD.(BSB).
Lev 18:26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
"The biblical context for understanding the importance of these injunctions against pagan religious practices is Leviticus 17-18, a text from Moses that is "read aloud every sabbath in the synagogues" (Acts 15:21). This text legislates the behaviour of "resident aliens" living in the holy land among Jews and sounds a cautionary note about possible effects of "aliens who sojourn in your midst" whose practices may defile and subvert the people's covenant relationship with God. The exhortation to avoid "the practices of the nations" is deeply rooted in the prophet's keen awareness that Israel's single-minded loyalty to God (and so its future) can be imperiled by the manner of a people's worship in a heterogeneous culture. This same concern is here adapted by James to guide the behaviours of converted Gentiles who share Christian fellowship with repentant Jews in the urban synagogues of the diaspora (cf. 15:21). In effect, James implies that Jews should treat uncircumcised Gentiles who otherwise share the same sacred space as "resident aliens." James offer guidelines to ensure that Christian fellowship in the mixed congregations of Paul's urban mission will nurture faith rather than contaminate. The lack of sensitivity to the church's Jewish legacy would surely have an adverse effect on a congregation's Jewish membership (cf. Rom 14, 1 Cor 8-10)...
Am 9:11 In that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen...
Am 9:12 that the remnant of men, and all the Gentiles upon whom my name is called, may earnestly seek me, saith the Lord... (LXX)
Am 9:12 that they may possess the remnant of Edom and all the nations who are called by my name," declares the LORD who does this. (ESV).
Isa 56:6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD,
and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant—
Isa 56:7 these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations."
"Upon an initial reading, the interpreter may wonder how James's interest in table fellowship within the Christian synagogues of the disapora relates to the biblical prophecy just cited. Is it part of his midrash on this Scripture or a pastoral exhortation detached from Scripture? If the Gentile believers in the church are the Gentiles of the prophecy, whose salvation is then confirmed by prophecy (Amos), then this exhortation for them to remain pure according to Moses (Leviticus 17-18) should not be viewed as odd. The same Scripture that claims them for God also obligates their civility...
Part 2
"The thematic interplay between this prophecy from Amos concerning the salvation of the nations and the Levitical injunctions against their "abominations" among Jews (cf. Lev 18:24-30) provides the biblical context for Luke's subsequent narrative of Paul's mission... (Robert W. Wall, "The Acts of the Apostles," NIB, Vol.10, pp.220-21).
"The spiritual crisis as Luke sees it is the possible loss of a distinctly Jewish memory without which the church cannot be the church... (Wall, p.214).
Ex 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
"In particular, the founding of different congregations according to Acts is at its roots a Jewish enterprise: It begins in the synagogue with Jewish and Gentile converts who are attached to the synagogue.
Ac 18:5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.
Ac 18:6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.
Ac 18:7 And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.
Ac 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
"Even when Paul is forced to leave the confines of the synagogue to maintain the Christian character of his urban mission, he does not leave behind the congregation's Jewish practices or constituency (e.g., see 18:5-8).
1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
"Even though the recipients of Paul's letters (e.g., 1-2 Corinthians) are primarily Gentile, their future with God is predicated on their congregation's Jewish roots - the very point that Acts illuminates by its narrative emphasis. The connection between Acts and the Pauline letters suggests, that "to the Jew first, then the Greek" is an ecclesial calculus every bit as much at it is a prophetic protocol" (Wall, p.215)
Part 3
Ac 16:13 On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate to the river, where we expected to find a place of prayer. We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there.
Ac 16:14 One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.
Ac 16:15 When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. "If you consider me a believer in the Lord," she said, "come and stay at my house." And she persuaded us.
"One of the implied conclusions of James's paradigmatic commentary on Amos is that God-fearing Gentiles attached to synagogues are preferred converts (see 15:20-21) The details of her spiritual biography are therefore similar to God-fearing Cornelius; she is a "worshipper of God, [who] was listening to us" (v.14; cf. 10:1-3)...
Ac 17:1 When they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a Jewish synagogue.
Ac 17:2 As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
Ac 17:3 explaining and proving that the Christ had to suffer and rise from the dead. "This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Christ,'" he said.
Ac 17:4 Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and not a few prominent women.
"In addition to these repentant Jews, characteristically mentioned first by Luke are "a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few leading women" (17:4). Probably nothing is indicated by Luke's separation of "devout" Gentiles from the important women who also converted; they are all attached to the synagogue" (Wall, p.231).
"It is noteworthy that most Gentile converts are those whom Paul finds in the synagogue... Even within the distinctive narrative world clear religious distinctions are made between Gentiles that a preference for God-fearers as more ready to embrace the gospel and to live in appropriate ways with their Jewish sisters and brothers. Perhaps the missionary subtext of James's halakhah is that uncircumcised Gentiles attached to the synagogue where Moses is preached every sabbath are to be privileged. If so, then certainly the Paul of Acts seems to agree, since he finds most of his Gentile converts in the urban synagogues of the Disapora..." (Wall, p.220).
6.08 Miller Jones. Christ's "you shall know them by their fruits" means that what's in the heart will manifest itself in what people do. Yes, people can wear masks and not give expression to every evil of the heart, but broadly speaking one leads to the other. Which is is why Psalms 1:2 "..and in His law does he meditate day and night."
Who doesn't know this from personal experience?
Anonymous Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 10:27:00 PM PDT,
Yes, Christ did say "by their fruits, you shall know them." However, he also made clear that this required more than casual/superficial observation - that it required spiritual discernment. Legalists tend to be obsessed with how things appear to others. Christ called out this superficiality in the scribes and Pharisees. He said: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and all uncleanness. So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness." (Matthew 23:25-28) Likewise, Paul warned Timothy about those who have "the appearance of godliness," but who are actually denying God's power (II Timothy 3:5). In other words, what's in a person's heart will manifest itself in behavior, but superficial observations of behavior will often miss what's really going on inside!
Yeah, but optics are important, too, Tonts. As in "Avoid the appearance of evil." It is a difficult process, maintaining purity. Some would say impossible!
5.54 pm, exactly. I read a review of a new bible translation, and it claimed that "avoid the appearance of evil" is a bad translation. The author gave the example of a religion group that considered having chrome on cars sinful. How can anyone avoid not offending such people? And isn't this debate addressed by the eating of foods offered to idols in the OT?
For me seeing the increasingly insane state the West is in and where it's all heading especially in light of Bible prophecy, I'm gaining a renewed and deeper respect for Biblical law (eg corporal punishment for minor offenses and capital punishment for major offenses). I know some might be shocked and exclaim, "It's cruel and evil," but what's really cruel and evil imho is allowing all this anti-Christian and anti-Biblical immorality spread like a cancer in society until it festers to the point our society is destroyed. And we're definitely getting closer to that point as we can see the West's moral decay and rot spreading from within and will no doubt this will enable it to be ripe for the plucking by others from without more than likely sooner than most think.
Hypocrite, Hendrix, those two great commandments that you supposedly stand by are part of the Torah that you speak evil of.
Your rest in Christ is in vain because you turn the grace of God into lasciviousness (no restraints on conduct).
Anonymous Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 11:29:00 AM PDT,
You haven't been paying attention. I have NEVER spoken evil of the Torah. I have said, over and over again, that Torah points to Jesus, and that he filled it to the full. Also, I have pointed out that those two commandments comprehend/summarize Torah. Finally, my rest in Christ has and will bear fruit, and those two commandments (Love for God and neighbor) are the diametric opposite of lasciviousness. A person who lives by them with the aid of God's Holy Spirit will avoid any conduct which hurts or harms others and makes a mockery of his/her professed love for God! On the other hand, I would say that Legalists are effectively rejecting what Christ has done for them!
The Reformation emphasis on Pauline "righteousness by faith apart from the law" threw Herb's brain into Tilt, as did the dogma of the Trinity, and the disorderly nature of early Christianity with its competing philosophies.
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