Tuesday, August 22, 2023

CGI: Bill Watson’s Doctrine of ‘Changing Life Forms’


 


Bill Watson’s Doctrine of ‘Changing Life Forms’

 

By The COG Catholic

Expecting to be disappointed, I listened to CGI elder Bill Watson’s recent Armor of God episode entitled “Are We Immortal?” Unfortunately, my expectations were met.

Bill is a good and likeable guy, but he routinely misrepresents the beliefs of denominations other than his own. This is partly due to ignorance, and I'm afraid partly due to the comfort of sticking with standard-issue Armstrong narratives.

While there is much to criticize in this Armor of God episode, for now I want to highlight the irony of a particularly bizarre charge Bill makes against Christians who believe in man’s immortal soul.

Changing life forms

He claims we traditional Christians believe people “really don’t die, but instead you change life forms into some disembodied spirit and go on living consciously apart from your physical body.”

This is not the first time he has accused Christians of believing we “change life forms.” It’s part of his verbal repertoire when discussing the subject, like saying we believe our “souls waft off into heaven” when we die (I don’t know if I’ve ever heard the word waft outside of COG presentations).

But the truth is the opposite of what he claims: It is he who believes in changing life forms, and it is we in the historic Christian tradition who believe in the bodily resurrection.

What Christians actually believe

Christians from the beginning have always believed that our spirit, or soul, was created ex nihlo by God to be immortal. We are not “inherently immortal,” because only God has immortality inherently. God is, however, able to bestow the gift of everlasting existence to his creatures, just as he did for the angels.

We believe that at the conclusion of our earthly lives, our souls survive bodily death and await a bodily resurrection at the Second Coming. The eternal reward of the just will be enjoyed not in a perpetual ghostly state of “wafting,” but in the body – resurrected, reunited to our souls, glorified and immortalized.

Interestingly, Bill likes to say the concept of the immortal soul comes to us largely from pagan philosophers and gnosticism in the Early Church. But Irenaeus of Lyon (A.D. 130-202) most famously and effectively wrote against the gnostics; he did not adopt but opposed gnosticism.

As one who knew Polycarp (COGs’ favorite Early Church Father), Irenaeus wrote in his work Against Heresies(Book 5, Chapter 7) what we Christians believe regarding the body and the soul and the resurrection:

For this it [the body] is which dies and is decomposed, but not the soul or the spirit. For to die is to lose vital power, and to become henceforth breathless, inanimate, and devoid of motion, and to melt away into those [component parts] from which also it derived the commencement of [its] substance. But this event happens neither to the soul, for it is the breath of life; nor to the spirit, for the spirit is simple and not composite, so that it cannot be decomposed, and is itself the life of those who receive it. We must therefore conclude that it is in reference to the flesh that death is mentioned; which [flesh], after the soul's departure, becomes breathless and inanimate, and is decomposed gradually into the earth from which it was taken. This, then, is what is mortal. And it is this of which he also says, He shall also quicken your mortal bodies. And therefore in reference to it he says, in the first [Epistle] to the Corinthians: So also is the resurrection of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it rises in incorruption. [1 Corinthians 15:42] For he declares, That which you sow cannot be quickened, unless first it die. [1 Corinthians 15:36]

Irenaeus clearly believes in the immortal soul and the resurrection of the body. This is what practically all Christians believe.

But back to the idea of “changing life forms.”

What COGs actually believe

You, the readers of this blog, already know what COGs believe. While they scoff at the idea that death occurs when the soul separates from the body, they insist it involves the “spirit in man” separating from the body. That “spirit in man” – likened to a cassette tape or CD or USB thumb drive that contains a person’s memory and character – goes back to God and awaits a “resurrection” while resting comfortably in a deep soul sleep.

But wait – there's more!

Who really believes in changing life forms?

The irony I alluded to at the beginning of this post is that it’s not historic Christianity, but COGs who teach we will change life forms!

Think about it. COGs mean something very different by “resurrection” than what Christians do.

Christians believe explicitly in “the resurrection of the body,” which, for those who are saved, will be glorified and supernaturalized. It will “put on immortality.” And it will be reunited with the soul.

COGs, on the other hand, believe the body we have now will no longer be ours. They don’t believe “resurrection” means the coming back to life of that which was dead, but the absolute replacement of our old physical body. Our old body will be discarded, while the reawakened “spirit in man” will be inserted into an entirely different, entirely new “other” body that has no connection to our current body.

Back when God first created man, he saw everything he had made and called it “very good” (Genesis 1:31), yet COGs say we will no longer even be human beings. Instead, as creatures, we will become a completely different species: “spirit beings” (a nonbiblical term, incidentally). And our bodies will be “made out of spirit.”

Of course, bodies can’t be composed or made out of spirit, since by definition spirit is incorporeal.

So what we have in COG theology is a “spirit in man" that jumps from one life form (human being) to another life form (spirit being), while taking a snooze in between the two states. That sounds an awful lot like a form of reincarnation or a transmigration of souls – an idea as pagan as pagan gets. The only difference has to do with timing and whether the soul is conscious between life forms.

The historic Christian Church takes the Bible at its word. We are mortal because our bodies are subject to corruption. One day our mortal bodies will be made immortal. The saint’s body that goes into the grave is the same body that will come out, except it will be glorified and given everlasting life.

Biblical portrayals of the other side of death indicate consciousness: Lazarus and the Rich Man, the Transfiguration, King Saul and the Witch of Endor, the martyrs crying out for vengeance in heaven.

For the sake of argument, let’s say the soul needs the body for survival (instead of the other way around), and death includes “soul sleep.”

Either way, it is the COG position that most resembles paganism, presenting the “spirit in man” as something meant to escape the fleshly body, to be placed inside a “spirit body,” and to go on living apart from the physical body.

Which is to say, COGs believe the reward of the saved is to change life forms (with a nap in between).

 

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The COG Catholic currently blogs at https://write.as/thecogcatholic.

 

35 comments:

James said...

Here's to bill...

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DW said...

James....BRILLIANT!! My favorite comment of all time!!

Also brilliant is this article. I cannot tell you how bloody sick and tired I am of actual heretics lying (or at least grossly misrepresenting) what Christians believe. They lie with such ease about the doctrines of Christianity that I have to wonder if they ever once took the time to learn what we have all believed for 2000 years, or if they are simply parroting what they have been told. Either way, only the cults do this. They have a vested interest in smearing the other guys product to ensnare people into their heterodox cult.

Thanks for this article. This is a first order issue that all born again believers understand very well. The early church fathers went to great lengths to clearly explain this to prevent the heretics from distorting what is actually a very simple truth. Why the cults can't figure it out is beyond me.

Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix said...

In the latest edition of "The International News," Bill has an article entitled "Enduring in Troubling Times." He begins with a quote from his favorite politician. Guess who? Next, he launches into a critique of U.S. foreign policy which is currently supportive of Ukraine in its war with Putin's Russia. This is immediately followed by a warning about China's intentions on the world stage (I have no problem with that, but I still wonder about whether this is an appropriate topic for a religious publication). Next, he launches into a diatribe about support for transgender children in our school systems and social services.

Watson continued: "Many things are changing in and around us and what was once taken for granted to be good is now suspected to be bad. What was once thought to be right and normal is now considered questionable, with redefinitions or cancelations of what is right and normal. In simpler terms, what was determined to be right is now wrong, and what was considered to be normal is now abnormal(Isaiah 5:20–23). This is not the world many of us grew up in. Consequently, this demands a different approach toward the conditions we face today." In other words, these perverts are destroying our society, and we have to deal with it! Bill's solution: Christians need to obey THE LAW! He wrote: "We should keep this in mind that we will be rewarded according to our works." Yeah, same old stuff.

Jeff Reed said...

Hi Darren,

Traditional Christians believe that the soul is immortal, so there must be a source for this belief. We do not think it is the Bible because of many scriptures.

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:20

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23)

"...that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). Perish and everlasting life are opposites. Eternal life is presented throughout the Bible as the reward of the saved.

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matthew 26:6)

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with him a thousand years" (Revelation 20:6)

"But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." Romans 6:22

God's gift of eternal life is a theme that runs through the Bible. I know that you know these scriptures. I am genuinely interested in the Catholic response.

Bill's conclusion is that the idea of the immortal soul originating outside Christianity is accepted by many scholars outside the Church of God. There is actual legitimate evidence to be considered.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_mortalism#Immortality_of_the_soul
https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/8092-immortality-of-the-soul
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ancient-soul/

You wrote, "Christians believe explicitly in "the resurrection of the body," which, for those who are saved, will be glorified and supernaturalized. It will "put on immortality." And it will be reunited with the soul."

"Either way, it is the COG position that most resemble paganism, presenting the “spirit in man” as something meant to escape the fleshly body, to be placed inside a “spirit body,” and to go on living apart from the physical body.

Which is to say, COGs believe the reward of the saved is to change life forms (with a nap in between)."

1 Corinthians 15

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body."

I need to see how we differ from what you are saying when we say we will be transformed into immortal spiritual beings. That is a different "life form," in a sense, though. The difference is we believe in what you call soul sleep. I like your analogy of a nap.

I recently received an email from Vance Stinson on the subject and I like the way he described the resurrected Christ:

"When He rose again, His human body—that same body that had been placed in the tomb—was revived and transformed into an immortal human body. His divine attributes and powers were fully restored, but He was now a glorified, deified Man... So He is still, today, the immortal God-Man. He is as human as He ever was, but He exercises His divine attributes and powers as fully as He ever did. This is why He is, not was, the New Adam, which means He is the New Humanity—a glorified, perfected, deified Humanity. And when we are joined to Him, we become a part of the New Humanity, and we look forward to the time when we will experience this new, deified Humanity in its fullness. “We will be made like Him, for we will see Him as He is.”

I read the article you wrote about your change to Catholicism. I find your story intriguing. And although we have never met, I have had friends who knew you when you worked in Tyler and still say great things about you. My wife grew up Catholic and then converted to Church of God.

Tonto said...

Pack, Flurry, Thiel, Weinland and Cox have "changed life forms". They went from being human to being WOLVES!

Anonymous said...

It's all so confusing. I think Watson should have said changing life substance, not form. From physical to spirit, or physical back to physical, a physical substance recreated if you were cremated. When you're resurrected, recreated, you will have the same form, will have legs, arms, a head, etc. You will be recognized as been recognized in your first life. ??? Furthermore a "second death" indicates everyone at some time will be resurrected, whether you like it or not, and if you don't want to continue to live, well, go ahead and die the second death, the death that is eternal.

Anonymous said...

Another confusing article filled with ambiguity. You argue a point while not knowing the facts. You talk about the glorified body, while not knowing, like the Corinthians, what this means.

Bodies can't be composed of spirit, you say? WRONG. 1 Cor 15:44 says there exists a spiritual body. What do you think angels are made of? You haven't seen enough UFOs on various TV programs? They manifest themselves in bodies as spirit beings, as many scriptures reveal. For God gives to each a body as it pleases Him. (1 Cor 15:38) So your OWN definition that spirit is incorporeal is false. This fact alone puts a dent in your arguments, not knowing what "glorified flesh" is. (The transfiguration showed the holy men in visible bodies). As Paul said, the body comes up in a different form from the original constitution (1 Cor 15:37); still a body, but in a different form.

(Take a close look at 1 Cor 15:42-44. Paul is referring to the bodies of those who are raised to glory in the kingdom -- not the ones who rise up in the Day of Judgment. One will rise up into a spiritual body, the other into a physical body resembling their former likeness)

No, we always taught that bodies will be changed into spirit because that is what the Scriptures teach. As for the unbelieving, they will rise up in the flesh later at the Great White Throne judgment.

Watson is referring to the final death doctrine of traditional Christianity where they believe that a conscious soul will go on living in torment in the lake of fire. This is the devil's fate but not a human's fate, unless you believe that a worm has the spirit of man in it that gives consciousness to its surroundings. (Mark 9:44)

HWA did argue that man is not immortal, which is true (mortality must put on immortality), and Scripture teaches that the soul which sins shall die, for God has the power to cast it into hell -- both body and soul. (Mt 10:28) But when one becomes converted, he receives eternal, immortal life in his soul at that moment so that he will live on and never die even if his body dies off. (Jn 11:26; 17:3)

DW said...

To Anon @ 12:55. Let me try and help you. Everyone who has ever been born was born with a dead spirit because of Adam and Eve. It is that dead spirit within us that needs to be brought to life by faith in Jesus (born again). Ephesians 2 tells us that until we put our faith in Christ, the wrath of God REMAINS on us. That is why Jesus said that we must be born again to enter the Kingdom. There is no second chance or another trial period of life 2.0 to reconsider. We only get this one life to make our decision. We come to life, spiritually, the moment we believe and put our full trust in the finished work of Jesus. Now, the born again believer, though his/her body dies, their spirit immediately goes to Heaven to be with the Lord. At the first resurrection the believers body will be reunited with their spirit and that is the body we will inhabit for eternity with Jesus. That is the glorification we believers await.

The second death is only applicable to unbelievers. Their dead spirits (which have been held captive in Sheol/Torment/Hell) were not made alive in Christ while they lived their earthly lives. The second resurrection, only for them, is when their body is reunited with their spirit for the second death. This reunited body and spirit will be transferred from Sheol/Torment/Hell into the Lake of Fire. It is eternal, conscious punishment. There is no such thing as soul sleep. That is a false teaching that I believe to be heresy.

Hope that helps. Best of luck to you!

Anonymous said...

COG Catholic, you quote early Christians to say what Catholics believe. I've been a Catholic. They teach Purgatory right after death, and then heaven or hell. Nothing about waiting for a resurrection.
Interesting subject anyway. There were church fathers who were taken to mountain tops and met ancient leaders with Christ - like Moses and I can't recall who else. That is before the resurrection.
I've had the death of mother and father, and I got the impression that yes there was a period in purgatory to try to straighten out some messes before going to a new life. This is independent thinking.

Anonymous said...

Since God has a copy of every deceased persons mind and character, technically He could make clones. But He won't for moral reasons. There's been several Hollywood movies revolving around this like Arnie's 6th day movie.

The COG Catholic said...

Anon 4:27,

If you attended English Masses after 1970, then each week you recited aloud with everyone else the Nicene Creed, ending with the words, "We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen."

Also, whether you consult the Roman Catechism (a.k.a. the Catechism of the Council of Trent), any of the old childhood Baltimore Catechisms, or the more recent Catechism of the Catholic Church, you will find extensive teaching on the subject of our resurrection.

The COG Catholic said...

Jeff Reed,

I'm in Ohio now without a computer until late Sunday. Maybe I'll write up something when I'm home to address your concerns. Thanks for sharing them. I will let you know personally when i get to it, and I'll also mention it here in these comments.

PS: I hate writing on phones! So many typos!

Anonymous said...

A copy ? A person's spirit returns to God. A copy ? Seriously.

Anonymous said...

I don't believe a word of the intricate deceit the alleged 'COG Catholic' has gone to. The is absolutely no flesh on the bones of his life in CGI. Another fake name ?

Anonymous said...

11:00. You are the biggest whining crybaby we have had on here in a while. No one cares what you have to say.

Anonymous said...

The clarity of the comment by Anon 3:08 is refreshing, in light of the convoluted article written and many of the comments which are based on opinion and hope they are right. Many confusing comments that accomplish nothing.

Anonymous said...

Context

Ge 2:7b and blew into his nostrils the breath of life. Thus man became a living creature/being/person [nepes]

Eze 18:4b The person [nepes] who sins is the one who will die.

Jer 31:29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
Jer 31:30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man [’adam] that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

Eze 18:2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
Eze 18:3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul [nepes] that sinneth, it shall die.

“(1) Preamble and Thesis: The Illusion (18:1-2)...

“The exiles’ disposition towards their own involvement in Judah’s fate is encapsulated in a proverb, which Ezekiel cites verbatim...

"It is evident from Jer 31:29 that the proverb quoted in v.2 was also circulating in the homeland...

“This doctrine of transgenerational accountability was widespread in the ancient Near East...

“But this traditional doctrine of deferred responsibility supposedly created serious problems for the exiles... It is not fair that the “children,” the exiles, should be punished for the sins of the “fathers,” their ancestors. By this assessment, the proverb expresses in figurative form the doctrine explicitly declared in Lam 5:7:

“Our fathers have sinned and are no more,
And we are the ones who have borne their guilt...

“(2) The Counterthesis: The Reality (18:3-18)

“Ezekiel will have none of this...

“Prefacing his words with an emphatic declaration of divine determination, he announces the end of the proverb’s currency among the exiles. In its place he proposes a counterthesis, which he then develops in detail with three hypothetical cases...

“English possess no satisfactory equivalent of nepes. The expression is not to be understood in some Grecian sense as “souls” (AV, RSV, NASB), that is, nonphysical aspect of the human constitution, in contrast to the body that the soul indwells. Yahweh is not hereby staking his claim primarily to the nonphysical aspect of the human constitution. Such a dichotomy was foreign to the ancient Hebrews. Furthermore, to the Hebrew mind the nepes is not something a person possess but what one is (Gen 2:7)...

“With dramatic simplicity he declares, It is the person who sins who shall die. Ezekiel’s contemporary, Jeremiah had responded to the “sour grapes” proverb back home in Jerusalem with a similar affirmation... “Every person who eats the sour grapes will have their own teeth blunted, which, according to his own interpretation, means “everyone will die for his own iniquity” (v.30)...

“The effect of Ezekiel’s statement is to transform the principle that governed human judicial decisions [Deut 24:16] into a universal law. No generation is merely the moral extension of another. People die for their own sins, no one else’s. The dogma of transgenerational accountability must be abandoned...

“Ezekiel is not satisfied to answer the proverb simply by stating a counterthesis. In vv. 5-18 he presents a detailed exposition of the counterthesis by describing the relationship between one’s conduct and one’s fate. His rhetorical strategy involves the presentation of three hypothetical case studies, each of which illustrates the manner in which justice is administered...” (Daniel I. Block, The Book of Ezekiel Chapters 1-24, NICOT , pp.557-564).

Anonymous said...

Hate filled and bitter. Who cares what you think of comments. Not Byker Bob by any chance ?

Anonymous said...

Still trying it on with pathetic bullying none are afraid of you.

Anonymous said...

3:50, what do you mean by "conscious punishment"? That they will be consciously aware of being in the everlasting fire and unable to get out? Or that they will be just aware of it before being cast in?

Christ said that they will be reduced to eternal worms. (Mk 9:44)

Does a worm have consciousness?

I think all of us need to be straight on our terms. Eternal punishment to one means end of life but to another it means living in torment forever.

Part of the confusion on this subject stems from special revelations, visions and parables of the past being misinterpreted by people over time. It's common problem in which some truth mixes with error. One example of this is where HWA took the conception analogy to argue that we are not born again at conversion -- which is not true. Yet many in the COGs still believe this even though JWT corrected us 30 years ago! (No wonder we've been split up!)

Byker Bob said...

I've withheld comment on this topic. I've read widely of course, and see a lot of ideas I've encountered in my reading being discussed, but frankly, I've concluded that there are certain things which are intended to be a mystery to us at this time. Because of our shared past church experience, I tend not to trust anyone who claims to have all the answers to every question here and now. This is one of several subjects for which I'm waiting for additional information, and don't care to speculate.

BB

Trooisto said...

Hello COG Catholic: I enjoyed reading your bio.
May God continue to bless your love story with Shari!

Anonymous said...

Wrong person.

Anonymous said...

England ?

RSK said...

Right, BB? This seems like rampant speculation to me.

Anonymous said...

12:09-12:12 Wow! Looks like someone got out of juvie for a wee bit!

The COG Catholic said...

Thank you, Trooisto. I do have a good wife.

Anonymous said...

"God is, however, able to bestow the gift of everlasting existence to his creatures, just as he did for the angels."


Umm, angels are not immortal. Where did that idea come from?????

The COG Catholic said...

Anon 5:23

"Umm, angels are not immortal. Where did that idea come from?????”

Curious...when do angels die, and why and how? Do the angels sin? Do they have heart attacks? Do these pure spirits grow old and wear out?

BP8 said...

"When do angels die, and why and how"?

Why would angels need to be judged? 1 Corinthians 6:3

"Do angels sin"?

2 Peter 2:4: the angels that sinned awaiting judgement!

It's evident that God has His angels and Satan has his (see Revelation 12:7, Matthew 25:41).

Matthew 25:41 goes on to say that God has especially prepared a fire for those angels punishment.

Is this symbolic or literal, something that really happens? If so, why cast them into a fire that does no harm? Is it mere formality, or a fire especially created for the purpose that accomplishes the wages of sin?

Many books have been written on the subject of Satan's fate. These are just a few questions to ponder!

Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix said...

Great comment BB - I am going to accept whatever God has in store for me when I exhale my last breath!

According to Scripture, God is the ONLY entity that is inherent life. Everything else was created and is sustained by God. All other lifeforms exist at "his" pleasure.

Now, Scripture is also clear that God can bestow immortality upon the creatures which "he" has created, but this kind of eternal life is fundamentally different from his. Angels have the ability to exist indefinitely, to not grow old and die. However, as created beings, the Creator retains the ability to end their existence! And we see this throughout Scripture.

We see it in the Genesis prophecy about the Serpent striking at Christ's heel (a superficial hurt), and Christ crushing the Serpent's head (fatal). We see it in Isaiah's prediction that Satan would eventually be brought down to the grave (chapter 14). Also, we see it in Ezekiel's prediction that the covering cherub "shall be no more forever" (chapter 28). We see it in the promise that God would DESTROY those who destroyed the earth. And, as BP8 noted, we see it in the book of Revelation's assertion that the Lake of Fire or Second Death was created for the Devil and his angels! The wages of sin is death or it is something else! Moreover, the prediction that there will not be any pain or sadness in the new heavens and earth precludes the continued existence of anyone anywhere in a permanent state of torment. Once again, echoing BB, it makes absolutely no difference in the great scheme of things what you and I believe about what's going to happen to us and the angels - it will happen regardless!

The COG Catholic said...

BP8:

It seems your intent is to show that God can extinguish angels from existence. I don't challenge that.

God is able to extinguish anything, including time and space itself. He doesn't create anything he is unable to reduce to nonexistence.

The question has to do with whether he wills some of his creation (like angels or human souls) to be everlasting. Trees and houseflies and other physical things in creation are obviously meant to have an expiration date. But it's not so obvious (and is contrary to reason) that it's also the case with created spirits, whether they are angelic beings or human souls.

Max said...

This is complicated by the existence of many humanoid alien forms. We are the only place in the universe where our lives are so physically limited and dependent on food and oxygen. Otherwise they are simply made of living tissue that does not decay. Other characteristics I'm not sure about. Depending on whether they have 8 or 12 or 16 chromosomes these humanoids live either ~70 or 700 or tens of thousands of years before dying natural deaths. They can be killed too.
I'm trying to figure the difference between angels and these humanoids. At the end Satan and his group will be cast into outer darkness because they can't be killed and nothing else can be done apparently.

The COG Catholic said...

Jeff Reed:

Sorry for the delay, but I replied to your comments here:

https://write.as/thecogcatholic/on-changing-life-forms-a-reply-to-jeff-8-22-2023

Jeff Reed said...

COG Catholic,

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I am starting to think we are closer in agreement on the glorified body than we differ.
And honestly what we think about soul, spirit, etc is not as important as letting Jesus live in us no matter what church we belong to.