Sunday School for Critical Thinkers and Apologists: Who Got It Right?
Jesus is said to have said...
The Gospel of John is said to have been written between 85 CE and 110 CE
John 3:13
And no one has gone up into heaven except the One having come down out of heaven, the Son of Man.
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Either the author of John knew little about the Old Testament stories and had never read Paul's letter to the Galatians, or he just disagreed with the stories and his Jesus said that he only had ever ascended into heaven.
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OF course, none of the authors of the following stories would have known that Future Jesus and Gospels would have said that no mere human has ever done this...
Enoch ] is a biblical figure and patriarch prior to Noah's flood, and the son of Jared and father of Methuselah. He was of the Antediluvian period in the Hebrew Bible.
The text of the Book of Genesis says Enoch lived 365 years before he was taken by God. The text reads that Enoch "walked with God: and he was no more; for God took him" (Gen 5:21–24), which is interpreted as Enoch's entering heaven alive in some Jewish and Christian traditions, and interpreted differently in others.
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2 Kings 11-Written between 560 and 538 BCE
11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.
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2 Corinthians is said to have been written by the Apostle Paul around 55 CE before any Gosple was ever penned. Here we see Paul boasting about the experiences denying he is boasting, which he is, but if he did boast about it, which he isn't, it would be true.
...which personally I suspect wasn't true
2 Corinthians 12:
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows—
4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.
5 On behalf of such a man I will boast; but on my own behalf I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses.
6 For if I do wish to boast I will not be foolish, for I will be speaking the truth; but I refrain from this, so that no one will credit me with more than he sees in me or hears from me.
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NOTE: I really enjoy Paul's reasoning in Verse 6:
"I want to boast but that would be foolish. But if I did boast what I boasted about above, in verses 2 -5, would be true. But I won't do that so that no one thinks of me as more special, though special I am, than I am. "
:)
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44 comments:
Dennis is an atheist in the same way that Satan and his demons are atheists.
They don't believe in God's way, but they surely know that He exists.
Dennis wouldn't bother with this site otherwise. And looking like Father Christmas, he knows his end is near.
Neither Dennis or Gary believes one bit in the Bible, which is why Gary lets him write on here. At least Dennis admits his disbelief.
And, right on cue, the atheist bomb gets lobbed by a self-righteous Armstrongite because he can't respond to Dennis's post with a logical answer.
Aha! The one verse that "blew me away" b/c I was taught you die you go to heaven.
So then for the next 60 years I attempted to understand........found it! There are more heavens than one……..no one has ascended to the heaven Jesus came from.
Easy answer which has been taught in the church for decades: there are 3 heavens: (1) the atmosphere around the earth, (2) outer space beyond the earth's atmosphere, and (3) the heaven of God's dwelling.
5:24 said
" there are 3 heavens: (1) the atmosphere around the earth, (2) outer space beyond the earth's atmosphere, and (3) the heaven of God's dwelling."
Oh, right. Enoch and Elijah are just out there floating around the atmosphere and outer space. I bet they're hungry by now. What a boring existence they have had to suffer through.
Armstrongism is nutter than hell!
Musings: Who got it right?
When I saw this I wondered who the writer would be.
Dennis instantly came to mind. And sure enough……….
It’s not often I can lay claim to guessing correctly, but I did here.
And the moral of the story…….well there is none ………but I’m off to buy myself a lottery ticket,who knows if my luck will hold.
One thing is certain, the comments section to this post will be entirely predictable and entertaining with even some extremely well put together answers to his commentary. Pass the popcorn folks…….
Philosopher genius dennis astounds with great knowledge once again.
The scripture does not say that Enoch went to heaven in the way implied by our resident genius here and neither one who is jewish, christian, or anything else is correct just because he believes this version of the story.
Elijah wrote to Jehoram after he was transported away as can be read in 2 Chronicles 21:12-15. Perhaps not as dramatic, but Acts 8:39-40 tells of Philip being transported by the spirit.
Also, Paul could have easily dreamed something like what he describes and one might find that others did also if he makes an effort to look in other parts of scripture.
Additionally, it is interesting that we are taught what Paul really was doing by someone who is basically doing what he accuses Paul of doing, albeit in his own special way.
One can choose to interpret scriptures to fit his own beliefs, but it is quite clear that scriptures mean what the Creator wants them to mean and not what someone else wants. The John 3:13 basis used here shows that some are too dull to understand what a correctly written scripture means. Otherwise, I can say I have been to heaven as I have flown high in the sky. That being said, some will continue to spread stupidity as it is integral to existence for them.
Nevertheless, it would be nice if our genius philosopher and scripture interpreter would spend time figuring out ways to teach himself and other false teachers how to pay back members of the wcg and those from present day offshoots what they stole instead of feeding useless bs to make themselves feel special.
A Fundamentalist view of Scripture is unscriptural and unsustainable. However, rejecting inerrancy does NOT mean that the Bible isn't inspired by God, or that it should be discarded as a useless relic of a superstitious past (as some folks would have us believe). "All or nothing" is a FALSE Dilemma!
I could explain the cases of Enoch and Elijah but was almost persuaded by Dennis's argument on 2 Cor 12:2 on "the THIRD heaven" - God's Throne. Thanks to Anon 5:56 who demolished Dennis's subtle lie. Learnt something about critical thinking today.
"Neither Dennis or Gary believes one bit in the Bible, which is why Gary lets him write on here. At least Dennis admits his disbelief."
Well, I let you post here and you are far more offensive than Dennis is. At least he can provide reasons why he believes what he believes, but you whine like a little crybaby and have nothing to offer. Write a couple paragraphs to prove him wrong and I will post it.
but you whine like a little crybaby and have nothing to offer
Liar. Plenty of people have liked what I said many times.
Nobody has commented on the science yet. One of the ancients who witnessed Enoch or Elijah ascending into the heavens could not possibly have known that as a living creature rises through the atmosphere the air becomes thin, the temperature drops, as does atmospheric pressure. This is why the interior of airliners are heated and pressurized, and have an oxygen supply for emergencies. How many lightyears is this third heaven from earth?
Yep, I see that some are already ahead of me. You get it, and are thinking that by the time Enoch or Elijah faded from view, the laws of physics would already be taking their toll. The testimony of eye witnesses is only effective for as long as the eye can see! Those two gentlemen would be dead shortly after they disappeared into space. Even if they were traveling at the speed of light, they would die of old age long before they reached third heaven. So, it is possible that God simply chose a special way to euthanize them. Jesus, on the other hand, was raised from the dead, and based on his ability to appear and disappear, was spirit, which resolves the conflict quite nicely. Beats the heck out of the atheist being the only one to get an A in Sunday school (or Sabbath school, if you observe).
Ah yes, we now have to stay away from the fundamentalist view of scripture and go with the "read it as a metaphor" argument from our multiple personality contributor. Wonder where the scripture is that says we must go with the metaphor which should be defined as "I don't like what that says so I am changing what it means" which is a consistent tactic used by this contributor and others. Seems very similar to herbie's way, although he also liked to simply ignore parts of it like some others like to do.
The comment that reading the scripture with a fundamentalist mindset is unscriptural is truly a stupid concept. While there are numerous scriptures to be referenced, the Creator plainly says the opposite in Deuterononomy 30 from verse 10 through the end of the chapter.
It is the blind that are into the metaphor of what is not liked.
And now kids, get ready to hear something about scripture that is clearly to be understood as a metaphor with possibly at least one example of true metaphor in scripture so it can be proven that one who supports a fundamentalist attitude toward scripture can be discredited.
Metaphor is in scriptures, but not where many like to claim it is. This is like what was attempted previously. It is yet another false claim with no basis from scripture, only feelings.
Whether it was Enoch or Elijah, Paul or John in Revelation- they were all 'taken' somewhere.
Jesus was asserting that he could come and go on his own authority- something no one else could claim.
Anonymous Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 7:48:00 PM PST,
Ironically, the Fundamentalist's attitude toward Scripture is based on the same premise that the Atheist's attitude toward the Bible - If we find error or contradiction, the whole is discredited. This was Herbert Armstrong's mindset. Moreover, in your commentary about metaphor, I discern the same proclivity for Biblical Literalism which infects most Fundamentalists. Do you believe that there was a literal walking, talking snake wandering around the Garden? OR As Scripture reveals, was the Serpent representative of Satan?
Scripture reveals that it was a joint venture between God and humans. According to the Bible, the Holy Spirit influences and reveals - it does NOT control or dictate. Sure, God could have done it all himself - God could have handed us everything on a silver platter, but GOD chose to do it differently. Given the way that the human mind works, and the way that human communication works, I can think of a number of very good reasons for involving humans in such a project. Can't you?
Scripture also reveals that God cannot be contained in or by any book about him. In many places, it also reveals that human observation of the natural world has much to reveal to us about God and his nature and will. Scripture is useful for the things which Paul told Timothy that it was useful for - READ IT. God NEVER intended for Scripture to serve as a scientific or historically accurate textbook! It was originally intended as a Spiritual guide for humans, and it reflects many different perspectives, personalities, and styles. Frankly, to try to characterize Scripture as something other than this is simplistic and uninformed.
" "All or nothing" is a FALSE Dilemma!"
OK Lonnie, that allows you to pick and choose the parts you like and discard those that run afoul of your desires.
All views of scriptural are unscriptural and inconsistent.
We know very little about the "geography" of heaven. I could develop a theory that would reconcile all the data we have in the Bible regarding heaven. But it would only be conjecture. There is hardly anything to debate here.
Dennis' issue does point out that the Bible is not an encyclopedia of the faith. It goes deep on some subjects and barely touches others. Then there is the fact that it was developed in context with contemporary understanding at that time. What do you think ancient people meant when they used the term heaven? At the time that Genesis was written, the sky was a solid blue vault arcing overhead. Behind this "firmament" was contained water. That's why it is blue. And if you could build a tower tall enough, you could actually reach that ceiling. Birds could fly to it. This is a common ancient Near Eastern cosmology.
In Late Second Temple Judaism, a popular work in circulation was the Book of Enoch. Jude, apparently a kinsman of Jesus, quotes Enoch in his epistle. The Book of Enoch appears to be a collection of pericopes by different authors and developed over time. The book claims that there are Seven Heavens with the Third Heaven being the abode of the righteous. God dwells in the Seventh Heaven. So the term "Third Heaven" may not have anything to do with HWA's tripartite layering. HWA assumed the Bible was comprehensive on the topic and simply made a deduction that led to a three-tiered heaven. The Third Heaven may merely be a piece of Enoch's seven-tiered heaven.
Fundamentalists often believe that the Bible is inerrant but also comprehensive. I believe that the Bible is inerrant at the level of principle. I do not believe it is comprehensive. It leaves many topics concealed in mystery. Heaven is one of them.
So when someone in the Bible speaks of ascent to heaven, we would be, as astute observers, compelled to ask them what it is precisely that they are talking about. But that ship has sailed. There won't be any more information until you die.
Ranger
7:48 write, "Metaphor is in scriptures, but not where many like to claim it is."
We may not agree on the data but I think this principle has merit. I do not believe that the author, maybe Moses, of Genesis thought he was writing allegory. He was writing theology but made it, as far as he knew, compatible with the current view of the Cosmos in the ancient Near East. The Book of God's Works lagged behind the Book of God's Words.
For us, with our modern understanding of the Big Bang and the Inflationary Universe, the ancient cosmology of Genesis serves as allegory though that was not its orginal intent. We have conferred on this ancient science the status of literary device. Why not? It does not obfuscate the theology. And maybe some day off in the distant future, someone will look at our current understanding of astrophysics and a wry smile will spread across his or her face.
Ranger
I've been caught up to heaven - on Delta, Alaska, Frontier, United.
Ah, I remember the good old days when the concepts of the J and E sources and the edits and combining of those materials would be woven into this type of discussion. Seems like we used to dive much deeper, and not all that long ago!
'Ah, I remember the good old days when the concepts of the J and E sources and the edits and combining of those materials would be woven into this type of discussion. Seems like we used to dive much deeper, and not all that long ago!"
Exactly! No one seemed afraid to stretch their boundaries a little. Now the pendulum has swung in the other direction and people freak out at anything that might upset their sensibilities. Most COG members have no idea what the J, E, P, and D sources are. In the Bible class I run on Monday nights we used to have the participants highlight each source with different colors. It made for interesting conversations. Now we use different textbooks, but the four sources are still discussed.
I am not so sure Paul was referring to himself in the ascent to heaven, even though it is widely assumed. There is the possibility that he is referring to Lazarus of Bethany, brother of Mary and Martha. Also, Matthew states that there were unnamed Christians who were resurrected at the time of the Resurrection of Jesus. I have always wondered why there are no accounts of their experiences. Maybe Paul's account is the only surviving one.
Ranger
This site becomes more entertaining as the days go by. Very little regard for God's word, probably ignorance by those who haven't dusted off their Bibles in a very long time.
Then either you haven't been here long, haven't been paying attention, or have a very poor memory.
This is not Facebook. We don't have "likes".
The predictable vitriol over Dennis' authorship never fails to remind me that COG members are frequently the most wretchedly MISERABLE people on the planet.
Speaking of Sunday School, wouldn't it be ironic if the 2024 election cycle ushered in a fascist theocracy which enforced Sunday-keeping? That is something that Armstrongites would never see coming, unless they happened to read this comment right here on Banned!
Not using the blue letter bible to quote from ? What a shocker !!!!!
Most COG members have no idea what the J,E,P and D sources are.
Neither did you until someone taught you many years ago. Patronising others isn't a virtue.
"Speaking of Sunday School, wouldn't it be ironic if the 2024 election cycle ushered in a fascist theocracy which enforced Sunday-keeping? That is something that Armstrongites would never see coming, unless they happened to read this comment right here on Banned!"
Actually, we've had an eye on the possibility of a strong right wing theocracy for decades.
Is that how the writers saw it, or is that just your Armstrong stock answer?
Its certainly what many Reconstructionist-influenced Christians in America desire, although the notion tends to appeal to the lowest levels of intelligence and they often cannot define any of the key terms.
Yes they did. I remember a Sunday enforced society being discussed in the 90s.
Apathy. Prime example of Apathy.....in power...
"Actually, we've had an eye on the possibility of a strong right wing theocracy for decades."
Since you haven't noticed, your right wing (ie, control of the mind) theocracy is already here. It's called the woke democratic party. It's priests are university professors and the main stream media. They are already disfellowshipping dissidents by cancelling them.
"It is he that God of Heaven designs to save this nation from destruction and preserve the Constitution."
Was this quote about Ronald Reagan, George W Bush or Donald Trump? Actually, none of the above, it was spoken by Brigham Young about Joseph Smith. Fits right into a modern campaign, doesn't it?
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
That is a parenthetical statement inserted by John. The red letter bible shows it to be a statement by Jesus but the "red letter" guy got that one wrong.
Concerning a Sunday enforced society, I have a humorous story to share.
Years ago I hired a very zealous 7th day Adventist man as my assistant, which meant we spent many hours together in the car. He knew I was also a sabbath keeper but that was about it, so he was compelled to educate me on his SDA beliefs.
He was a very pompous type, and always came across like I didn't have a clue.
Once he asked, "did you know (his favorite come on) that some people actually believe that Jesus DRANK"? I said, yes, and I'm one of them! That sent him through the roof, and instead of discussing revealant scriptures, he changed the subject.
Another occasion, because the Adventists believe Sunday is the mark of the beast, he said, "did you know that, in the future working on Sunday will be outlawed and it will be enforced by the military"? Pulling his chain, I said, GOOD, I don't like working on Sunday's anyway. That will allow me to watch the ball games!! He went ballistic, lol, and scrambled to come up with a rebuttal.
Though arguing with him was a waste of time, I had a lot of fun with that guy and learned a little bit about what Adventists believe.
Ha! I believe it though. The Adventists Ive known were not quite so stringent, but when their favorite topic came up they could really go off the rails.
lol, Sunday enforcement. If you look around society at large, it’s becoming more and more atheistic. It’s more likely all religious beliefs will be outlawed. Sabbath, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday, the name of the Lord will be outlawed and that man of perdition will be the only name anyone is permitted to bow to or acknowledge.
The Bible says this guy is going to exalt himself above God. Not esteem one day over another.
“Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.”
II Thessalonians 2:1-4 NKJV
Sure, I remember a ton of that in the 80s. Even claims of spy satellites being used to watch Sabbathkeepers homes and other such nonsense. I wouldnt normally credit ministurds with imagination, but some could get really carried away.
Nope not true. That is a well known elitism attitude towards the COG membership.
Many thanks for giving the game away.
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