CGI Can’t Decide About Whether or Not to Allow Politics in Church!
Lonnie Hendrix
The leadership of the Church of God International continues to try to straddle the fence on whether pastors and members should be involved in secular politics. Folks like Jeff Reed, Mike James, and Vance Stinson argue in favor of neutrality - while folks like Bill Watson, Adrian Davis, and Murray Palmatier see absolutely nothing wrong with their partisanship. Indeed, in spite of severe criticism, the politicians continue to be loud and proud about their foray into that realm. In reality, although most of the membership of CGI is very conservative and very Republican, the membership remains very divided on the issue of political involvement on a corporate level. Moreover, neither side appears to be satisfied with the leadership’s wishy-washy “neutrality.” In other words, it feels awfully lukewarm within CGI these days!
Although the Church of God International’s leadership has apparently decided to mothball their Armor of God program and have removed Bill Watson from their payroll, in the latest edition of their Prove All Things: Politics and Voting webcast (Reed and James) interviewed ACOG member and proud Montana Republican, Bill Lussenheide. For those of you who may be unfamiliar with Mr. Lussenheide, he is completely comfortable with his role as a partisan officeholder and supports the Republican Party’s platform in his state “one hundred percent!” In other words, he feels absolutely no conflict between the religion he professes and fully participating in partisan politics! Indeed, just like Ohio Bill, this Montana Bill believes that he is defending his faith and proclaiming the Gospel through his participation in the political process.
Speaking of that other Bill, Mr. Watson recently defended his own messaging on politics on his News Alert Blog on CGI Medina, Ohio’s website. Bill wrote: “I recently read an article by Caroline Woods (from The Blaze) that was rather interesting, especially since I have been accused of being ‘political’ more times than I can count. There are people today that think the pulpit should be exclusively reserved to address the Bible and only the Bible. They claim, to use the pulpit to address social issues, underscored by the Bible, is wrong and is out of order. That those pastors, should simply remain on point and only speak on Christian Living––stay away from social issues!” He went on to point out that pastors have addressed current events throughout the history of the United States (the old they did it before me excuse). Mr. Watson continued: “Keep in mind, those who shrink back in ‘cowardice’ from addressing the issues of our day forget; it’s not the Church that has become political, but rather, politics has become more excessive in violating our religion and God’s Church needs to stand firm and show our people their sins (Isa 58:1).” Watson clearly believes himself to be courageous and right, and that he consequently can’t be wrong in what he is doing!
If that doesn’t sound like circular reasoning to you, it should! In a recent post on my own blog The Allure of Politics for Christians, I pointed out that “In their desire to promote righteousness and God's will, Christians have too often found themselves drawn into the political systems of this world. Unfortunately, instead of influencing things in a better direction, the Christian often finds him/herself participating in a process which interrupts his/her focus on God, distorts the distinction between good and evil and causes him/her to compromise with the dictates of his/her faith and conscience. One candidate or policy seems to be the right one at the time we are considering the alternatives, but we often learn later that our choice(s) produced unintended negative consequences. In other words, in our attempt to avert an evil outcome, we often set the stage for an even worse future than the one we were trying to avoid!”
Next, I proceeded to point out many of the Biblical warnings against participating in the affairs of this world and to avoid being drawn into idolatry of the state. I also pointed out that Christ NEVER challenged or criticized Rome or its representatives in Judea, that he reserved his harshest rhetoric for the Jewish religious leaders of his day. Finally, I concluded with some advice that I think folks within CGI’s leadership would do well to heed: “Unfortunately, we Christians sometimes forget that we are strangers and pilgrims on this earth, and that our primary citizenship resides in heaven (Hebrews 11:13-16). Our salvation, spiritual and physical, is found in God's plan. In short, the political systems which humankind has devised are flawed, and they will fail someday. We must not forget that our faith and hope is found in God, and him alone! (Psalm 118:8)” While there is certainly nothing wrong with setting a good example and helping others in the here and now, it is NOT our commission or responsibility as Christians to fix the flawed political systems of this world!
63 comments:
Lonnie ignores that in the west today, the defacto religion is socialism, with the main stream media, woke entertainment and the universities acting as the Church. The State is the federal, state and local governments implementing the doctrines of this religion. The church and state are one in the west, as much as state and Islam is one in the Muslin countries. Evidentiary Lonnie doesn't want to hear one peep from Christian ministers challenging the ideas of this church-state golden-idol combine. Instead Christian churches, like children, should be seen and not heard. The only permissible message from Christianity in his eyes is Kenneth Copeland's useless mush. So Christianity must not challenge today's false gods.
I believe the world needs politicians who do the righteous thing. I believe HWA was wrong in not allowing for COG people to be involved in politics. I believe HWA was right in that nothing in politics has to do with doing the or even presuming to know the "Will of God." It's just serving your group and surroundings and perhaps leaving a mark for the better.
nck
Oh yeah. I believe getting involved into politics might reflect badly or put a stain on the Church someone adheres to. This also goes for perhaps the Company someone is working for, his/her family and the clients or suppliers they work with........
nck
Eh, The Church has a duty to keep the membership informed about the ways of the world to help the Saints avoid them. Government in this country has been promoting pure evil for some time now so it's natural that sermons will veer into "politics" from time to time. Sermons should stick to pointing out the evils being promoted and offer advice on how to avoid them. The Church should never get involved in supporting one candidate or another no matter what their platform.
Politics and religion are intertwined, especially when you consider the Gospel is about a new Kingdom coming to this earth that will overthrow all others.
Oh, Lonnie Hendrix, bless his heart. The man seems determined to paint a portrait of me like he’s working on a masterpiece, but honey, all you got is a box of crayons and no sense of perspective. Let’s just say, when it comes to his views, I’m not lining up for an autograph anytime soon.
Now, to set the record straight, I’ve never met Bill Watson, never spoken to him, not even a "hey, how’s the weather?" at a church picnic. In fact, let’s make this crystal clear—I am not a member of CGI, or any organized group for that matter. I’m what you’d call fiercely independent. You know that person who reads the instructions after building the IKEA furniture? That’s me. But Lonnie seems to think I’m running some kind of covert membership club. Sorry, Lonnie, but I’m not passing out church badges or secret handshakes over here.
The difference between Bill Watson and me is like comparing apples and oranges—if the apple was an ordained minister in a COG church, and the orange was someone who prefers a little less formality and a lot more Bible. Again, no formal membership for me. Honestly, I’m familiar with the nut jobs that run these various churches, who make membership sound like joining the CIA, and frankly, I don’t have the time to decode all that.
When I do speak at a church, you won’t catch me giving sermons about partisan politics. I stick to what matters—Sola Scriptura, not “Sola Party Line.” Politics might pop up, but only in the most general way. I’m not up there to campaign; I’m there to talk scripture.
And as for Prove All Things, let’s clear that up too. Guests are guests. It’s like inviting someone to your dinner party. Just because they like pineapple on their pizza doesn’t mean you endorse that culinary crime. Same goes for viewpoints. Mike James, and Jeff Reid, or the CGI, don't hand out rubber stamps of approval to everyone who talks on the show, and they say that upfront. It’s called a disclaimer, Lonnie. Look it up.
Lastly, yes, I support the Montana GOP Platform. It’s 100% pro-life, aligns with my personal beliefs, and it’s all laid out clearly—no secret clauses or surprise membership applications attached. Much more understandable than Pack, Flurry, Thiel, Weinland, Cox, ad nauseam. Been at this for a while now, and way back in 2008-2010, I was a candidate for United States Congress. So, Lonnie, before you try painting a picture of me, maybe check your facts... and get a better set of brushes while you're at it.
https://mtgop.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/2024_Party_Platform.pdf
This year I am going to vote against autocracy in the Presidential Election. I am voting my reading of the circumstances with some intuition factored in. It is a shot in the dark. The lesser of the two evils. And I must recognize that I may be voting my personal values but voting against the purposes of God. Maybe God plans that the United States succumb to a right-wing dictatorship in order to initiate a punitive train of events. I am not privy to such plans.
I remember HWA saying that the church should never get involved in politics. He said that, in its history, every time the church sought to defend itself by becoming political instead of trusting in God, the attempt backfired and persecution was brought down on the church. Back in those days, I felt fine about not voting in any kind of a civil election. I was following the words of the “Apostle”.
I don’t like engaging the political system. Not only is it like wading in a sewer, it feels like renunciation of trust in God. On the other hand, there are limits. Dietrich Bonhoeffer reached the point where he could not stand aloof. Er ward ein Soldat Gottes. He gave his life in opposition to Hitler. If he had been a pastor in name only, he might have enjoyed a sinecure in the Nazi-backed German Christian movement within the German Evangelical Church, a movement which taught a Nazified version of Christianity. But he was serious about being a Christian.
But I recognize the indecision – whether one’s religious repose is political or apolitical. Soon Whites will be in minority in the USA and they will not go down without a fight – and I mean Blut und Eisen. We are now seeing only the beginning. And in opposition to this civil war among races, I will reach my own Bonhoefferian moment. But I understand the fear. I recall the words of Colonel Jessup in the movie “A Few Good Men”: “Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. . . and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. . . You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall -- you need me on that wall. . . I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it.”
In 1776 Thomas Paine said, “These are the times that try men's souls.” I think those times have returned.
Scout
There was a time in the U.S. when ministries risked losing their tax-exempt status for taking political sides.
I thought the rules were loosened in recent years, but apparently not...
https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/charities-churches-and-politics#:~:text=In%201954%2C%20Congress%20approved%20an,in%20fact%20strengthened%20the%20ban.
Dont write your own fanfiction.
Lonnie wrote: "...I also pointed out that Christ NEVER challenged or criticized Rome or its representatives in Judea, that he reserved his harshest rhetoric for the Jewish religious leaders of his day..."
******
And who were those religious leaders of Jesus' day?
Jesus understood what the Apostle Paul has told us, that:
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]." Ephesians 6:12
One can see that principalities-involvement with Jesus words throughout Matthew 23 with His use of words like: fools, blind guides, serpents, hypocrites, whited sepulchers, generation of vipers, etc.
For example, we may read the following:
Matthew 23:34 "Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:
:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar."
The scribes, Pharisees, Sadducees, etc. like the religious leaders (including xcog hirelings of the former WCG under HWA), were simply pawns of Satan and his angels: the principalities!
Which of the physical religious leaders that Jesus was addressing had anything to do with blood of righteous Abel and/or Zacharias son of Barachias?
None of them!
When will so many of the current religious leaders finally recognize who it is that is guiding them in their thoughts? After all, the same principalities’ principles also apply to the political leaders, since Satan is this world’s religious/political god (Gal 1:4).
When will these religious (2 Cor 11:13-15)/political leaders (Luke 4:5-7) be granted/given repentance from The God, that God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob (Acts 3:13)? Yes, by their fruits we may know them, but in the meantime…
Time will tell...
John
Bill:
I think it is great you are as involved as you are. We are part of the communities we live in and should take an active interest that works for the benefit of all people. Continue doing what you do best!
The original version of CGI allowed voting as some of the big names in CGI supporting voting. Whilst some of CGI members did not participate in voting it was NOT like WCG with complete blanket ban. Not fully grasping CGI seems a reoccurring theme on this blog.
Nah, Lonnie. We have a responsibility to try to make our world and community better. Btw, can you vote in your business, local elections, PTA?
If we believe something will improve matters, we should do it. There is a lot of histrionics going on, but most in this country know something isn't right. We have a current President that is being handled as he is incapable of being the true executive. Most everyone knows this, and that it is a years long issue. We have a vice-president who is not a serious candidate, has not been put under scrutiny, and is afraid to field questions from the media. The machine will run her Presidency too if she is elected. The machine cannot be touched it seems. It will maintain the corruption of the current administration with its cocaine, money for access, etc. This machine is anti-American. Identity politics voters primarily focus on whatever intersectionality they identify with that never seems to improve their situation. But, they violently believe it will.
Oh well. Have a good evening.
I think Lonnie is on the phone to Dr. Bob asking where to get some of that Butt-Hurt Cream.
They removed Bill Watson from their payroll? Maybe it's because he retired?
I believe left-wing lawfare and speech quelling are by far more concerning. We actually see it and it is gathering steam. On the other hand, we saw Trump as Prez already and with the possibility of second term and there was no autocracy; more free before Covid. Now, he is 4 years older and cannot have a second term.
Oh they want to be apart of politics so bad in some of these splinters. After service the usual political conversations come up during fellowship. It's hard to remain neutral when their focus is on America, Britain & Germany with their end time prophecy scenarios.
LOL 12:20! Lonnie sure got his ass handed to him.
12:01 Because the other side is always God's side right? I got a question for you, what is anti-American? Is it when the Germans migrated over to America, is it when the Irish migrated to America, is it when the Italians migrated to America, is it when the Scandinavians migrated to America? Who created this identity politics, when back in they day they left their nationalities and just became white and said these other groups can't vote? Where did that concept come from? Did you not think this would come back to America.
Thanks for the concern, but my butt feels just fine. For me and my conscience, I must vote in the upcoming U.S. presidential election against autocracy and the imposition of Christian morals on those who do not subscribe to them. For those on the other side of this (like Bill), I humbly recommend:
https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2024/09/pledges-oaths-and-service-to-nations-of.html
By the way, as a Christian, I have no problem with setting a good example for others, or with helping those who need help. For me, politics is usually a very round about and ineffective endeavor for making a positive contribution to the world in which we live.
If as Lonnie says, we should avoid "being drawn into the systems of this world", against" participating in the affairs of this world ", and "it's not our responsibility to fix the flawed systems of this world", then wouldn't it be a good idea to define this world system he is referring too?
This one world system contains several movements: the political, economic/commercial, the religious, scientific, social/ culture, and media/ entertainment. One thing they have in common is found in a 1910 quote by Phillip Mauro:
" The fatal miscalculation of all the great movements of the day is that none of them takes any account of sin. This omission of course, vitiates all conclusions, and foredooms all these movements to failure. What has been aptly said of one of these movements is applicable to them all, namely, that they aim to get rid of the consequences of sin without getting rid of sin itself".
(The Number of Man, the Climax of Civilization, 1910, page 56).
These movements working in concert have the ability to define reality and label the real consequences of sin as they see fit and to their own advantage. Blaming things on climate change or phony pandemics is very profitable and hides the true causes of many calamities.
Acting on the principles of wealth and power at the expense of the planet and people, the system leaders have no real solutions for anything, and the ones that are offered are designed to enrich those in authority.
If one is going to truly expound the truth and righteousness of God, sometimes it is necessary to point out what it is NOT! It is not to be found in this world system, where most of the leadership are multimillionairs and fall under the condemnations laid out in Matthew 23. Unfortunately, most people can't see this nor believe it.
Scripture emphatically states that "Satan has deceived the whole world", that " the whole world lies in wickedness ", and " the whole world will wonder after the Beast". (Rev.12:9, 1 John 5:19, Rev.13:3-4).
This needs to be preached as much as anything!
Experience a little bit of a glitch in posting on my own blog. Here's the link again - just in case the other one doesn't work:
https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2024/09/pledges-oaths-and-service-to-nations-of.html
Choose life, or choose death. Choose good, or choose evil. The Bible is filled with these statements.
Welcome to the Club, Mr. Lussenhelde. Loonie Lonnie has a way of shooting himself in the foot. Imagine smearing someone you have never met and do not know anything about, and that would be what Loonie Lonnie does. Lonnie never answered which of my beliefs made me "extremism". Was it my belief in the US Constitution, my belief in the Bill of Rights, my belief in a secure border, low taxation and small government? Loonie Lonnie won't say. He smears and runs. Wear Lonnie Lonnie's smear like a badge of honor. Again, welcome to the Club.
I hope that some day, it becomes safe once again to vote Republican. I am in favor of small government, fiscal conservatism, a strong military, our treaties with our allies, and globalism. But, not unlike a house or senate bill which has been weighted down with outrageous pork, or unpopular extremism, those traditional party values have been encumbered with ideologies which are anathema to freedom. I'm optimistic that that trend is now on the wane, but so long as the RNC believes that such encumbrances will win elections, moderates and traditionalists will be an endangered species.
Is it really so shocking that ACOGs would be in favor of the very things that endanger our continued freedom? That's been Armstrongism's history! I have to remember all the years that the old WCG ministry and members rubbed their hands in glee with every little bit of news which seemed to indicate that America was finally going down, and HWA's prophecy mold would be vindicated! Now, they have an actual opportunity to vote for a Hitlerian strong man who will make it happen!
Richard,
You know that I have identified your repeated name calling and unprovoked personal attacks that have marked you as an extremist. Thanks for providing more evidence that I'm right!
Mr. Lussenheide,
"Bless your heart" is deep South, NOT California or Montana. Is someone a little touchy? You are mentioned in one paragraph of my post as a guest on CGI's "Prove All Things" Are you denying that you appeared on that show? Are you a partisan office holder in Montana? Did I say that you were a member of CGI? Did I mischaracterize your support for the Montana Republican Party's platform? I'm still wondering what I got wrong, and what I said to get your panties in such a twist. Your condescending and dismissive comment reminds me a lot of that other Bill - the Ohio one!
Here's a musical tribute to Lonnie's bestest buddy Bill Watson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCsYSS6ddT4&t=126s
He's just my Bill!
3:06 of course not. However, the GOP does support positions counter to many non-Christian values of the democrat party.
Still, money and power are dominant in both parties.
Not protecting your borders is important for all countries; not doing so in the US is anti-American. Those you reference primarily came through our immigration office; that is not the case currently. A country has a duty to know who and what kind of person is coming into the country. This distinction isn’t a hard concept unless one sees it through a racial lens.
The racial lens in the US teaches every condition and action is due to prejudice based on differences in skin color. Obviously untrue, but this teaching has contributed to the feeling many have that things just aren’t right (cognitive dissonance).
I think people are seeing that they are being taught things in the media and unfortunately in our education system that are often simply untrue. Now the left is advocating (and actually) punishing and quelling dissenting teachings. That is the danger to America.
"...those traditional party values have been encumbered with ideologies which are anathema to freedom."
Not wrong. I interviewed a Senate hopeful last night for an assignment, and I spent over an hour trying to get him to quit talking in hyperbolic slogans because I wanted the clip to appeal more to traditional GOP supporters. It was one uphill battle.
Glitch. I wonder why...
Anonymous 1:21 wrote, “I believe left-wing lawfare and speech quelling are by far more concerning.”
The imposition of an autocracy in the USA would be far more disastrous than left-wing rumblings. The evidence is on the side of the those who believe this disaster could occur. I am one of them. Trump has made statements that threaten autocracy. But his credibility is very much impaired. The listener doesn’t know if the threat is genuine or just MAGA histrionics. More convincing are Project 2025 and the statements coming out of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR), religious advisers to Trump. Armstrongism is not going to fare well if NAR takes hold under a MAGA administration. NAR members believe that Utah and the Mormons are under control of demonic forces. You can imagine what would happen if they ever turned their vehement attention to the non-evangelical Millerite congregations that preach Armstrongism. Interestingly, NAR believes that most of the prophecies of the Bible have been fulfilled. They have their own in-house prophets that foretell the future, tuned no doubt to MAGA politics.
When Hitler took over, he did not just let the influential churches in Germany go about their business. There arose a movement called German Christians that preached a Nazified “Christianity”. This group was poised to bring State religion to Germany. Die Kirche wuerde in den Haenden Adolfs sein. Veileicht passiert so etwas in den Vereinigten Staaten weider. Anyone in the Armstrongist movement who naively supports MAGA politics should have a close and disillusioning look at NAR. Centrism has its virtues.
Scout
Well, it's nice to see "Cowboy Joe", "Connie", or "Tonto" finally write under his own name.
Loonie Lonnie says, “CGI Can’t Decide About Whether or Not to Allow Politics in Church!”
MY COMMENT – I don’t know much about this ACOG other than it was founded by Garner Ted Armstrong when father Herbert Armstrong excommunicated his son in 1978. So, I offer my opinion to the broader statement that Christianity can’t decide about whether or not to allow politics into the Church!
In my opinion, in this 2024 Presidential election, it is very appropriate to discuss (allow) politics in the Church. This election has a direct threat to the Church on the ballot. And the Church should make its membership aware of that direct threat. Despite her morphing into a moderate flipping flopping on most of her previously stated positions in order to get elected, VP Harris has made it very clear she remains faithful to her core values. Her core values are sourced in Marxism. Her father taught Marxism at the University level and I am sure influenced her in her upbringing. Prior to her flipping, she has made Marxist statements. Karl Marx had much to say about religion. Had Marx got his way, society would be so happy being revolutionaries, there’d be no need for religion. The State would replace God and our Savior Jesus Christ as stated by Anonymous September 30, 2024 2:21:00.
A number of Marxist–Leninist governments in the 20th century such as the Soviet Union after Vladimir Lenin and the People's Republic of China under Mao Zedong implemented rules introducing state atheism. Christians had to go into hiding. Marxism is very much on the ballot in the 2024 election. And the Church has the responsibility to educate its membership of this direct threat. If Christians are NOT engaged in politics that directly threaten them, decisions will be made by people who think God is irrelevant and the truth of God’s word does not exist.
For those who need a scriptural reference to support my stated opinion that Christianity should allow politics into the Church, I offer Ecclesiastes 10:2 which reads, “A wise man’s heart is at his right hand, but a fool’s heart is at his left”. 😊
Richard
(His rationale was "everyone is talking that way right now". I was like yes, which is why its even more important that you don't for this appearance. STAND OUT from the imitators and give me a really good, rational, intelligent soundbite I can promote you with!)
The purpose of this post was to demonstrate that politics in Church is divisive and NOT consistent with the values of the Christian religion. These days, both sides are motivated by extreme ideology (left and right) and are passionate in their support of the ideas which they support. This leads to folks on the left characterizing their opposites as not caring for the poor and lacking in intelligence. Likewise, folks on the right tend to characterize their opposites as immoral, unpatriotic Marxists. Of course, neither of these characterizations actually reflect who the very real people who hold liberal or conservative views. Once again, I encourage everyone to consider my latest post on my own blog (link supplied above) as a rationale for NOT bringing politics into the ekklesia. We are all entitled to our own political opinions and must yield to the dictates of our own consciences on this matter (but I'm thinking it might be a good idea to focus on our faith in a faith setting and reserve the heated rhetoric for the political arena).
Richard,
Although I don't agree with your rationale for not supporting a particular candidate, I do respect the fact that you offered a reasoned rationale for your stance. Ignoring the name calling, this is the kind of comment that folks who are not extreme tend to offer. Also, the humor is a nice touch.
Okay Richard,
So in the early decades of the 1800s in Germany, the Christian religions were Lutheran, early protestant and Catholic churches. But isn’t Germany the big bad wolf that Armstrongism keeps talking about? So would Karl Marx have been a better person had he been a catholic or a protestant (mother of harlots), or no religion at all?
You also stated that the State replaces God and Christ, well isn’t that what happens in divorce to a man, the abuse of the welfare state? I mean I get it, she’s not a good fit, but what would you rather have a Marxist type or Hitler type? But we still have checks and balances don't we. Lenin and Zedong occur in autocracies not in our government. But I understand your sentiments.
Mage
The problem is that any group or power which insists on enforcing its beliefs or philosophy upon others is a danger to our free society. We have checks and balances throughout our system of government which were designed by the founding fathers to prevent such despots, religious or otherwise, from doing exactly that.
White Nationalists may end up being the threat to Armstrongites which they were conditioned to expect. We know that they are myriad. We know that prominent ones of that persuasion had great influence upon the writing of the paper now known as Project 2025. We hear outrageous statements made by J.D. Vance, who is known to be a White Nationalist. They want the U.S. to declare itself as a Christian Nation, and to be governed by their interpretation of the Bible.
HWA foretold that the mark of the beast would be Sunday keeping. If the White Nationalists rise to power, they may just end up persecuting all the ACOG members for denying the Trinity, and keeping the sabbath. The White Nationalists are a much more blatant threat to our democracy than someone who allegedly had a Marxist parent. Kamala's parents divorced in 1970. Don Harris was a professor of Economics at Stanford University. It is an oversimplification to label him a Marxist. A more precise description would be "Post Keynesian". Ronald Reagan, in his time, had also positioned himself against Keynesian Economics by embracing "Supply Side" economics, which is actually a wealth redistribution plan to transfer wealth to the wealthy who supposedly create opportunities.
Republicans were labeling Democrats as being "Communists" back as early as during the Reagan era. It's been one of their favorite scare tactics for years. I'm more worried about those who have stated that they plan to alter or rewrite the Constitution to give more power to the President, and to take it away from Congress and the Judiciary. I have absolutely zero fear of Kamala Harris becoming a dictator, or disrupting the world's balance of power. There is only one individual stating that he will do that! And, now, on top of his other flaws, he is also bitter and angry!
Anonymous 6:11
Bravo!!
Scout
11:48 “HWA foretold that the mark of the beast would be Sunday keeping. If the White Nationalists rise to power, they may just end up persecuting all the ACOG members for denying the Trinity, and keeping the sabbath.”
That would throw a u-turn in the whole Rome/Pope catholic church persecuting God’s people through the ages and the end time. Unless some of the white nationalist descend from the North (because although the ACOGs don’t want to admit it, but caucasians don’t descend from the land of America). Not saying what your saying is true or what I am saying is true, but it could be plausible. Or we shall wait on Germany to do so.
“Republicans were labeling Democrats as being "Communists" back as early as during the Reagan era. “
You know they labeled Franklin D Roosevelt as a communist socialist too, and all he was trying to do was get people out of the depression with those social programs.
Either way let us put our trust and hope in Jesus Christ, our Lord and King!
Lonnie, it's a terrible tragedy that our only choice is between Trump and Harris- it's like trying to choose between slugs and maggots. Kyrie eleison!
4:55 Agh, the education system and the “critical race theory” enigma (although it’s not actually taught K-12) but regardless. But I would think that other issues in the schools were far concerning such as school shootings, teachers having sex with the students, bullying, medicating the boys, taking vocational programs out of secondary schools, teacher low salaries (but our kids education is so important), teacher shortages every year, lack of funding for low income schools (disparities), lack of parent involvement, american schools rank low globally.
And the border, the border!! Wasn’t it Reagan that introduced the bill that made any immigrant who'd entered the country before 1982 eligible for amnesty -- a word not usually associated with the father of modern conservatism. All the multi-billion dollar stadiums and these elites never came up with a design for a wall. You know China built a great big wall like 2,000 years before Christ. Historically Illegal immigration is a bipartisan issue in America, it’s just that liberals are now carrying the bag.
Back to the racial lens, I just mentioned different nationalities that migrated to America. It’s funny, all the Europeans that came to America decided to look at their racial lens and go “we are white, and these other people are yellow, red or black”. I didn’t put on the racial lens, they did. They said they abandoned being Irish, English (even though we speak), German, Spanish, Italian, French, Dutch… Now are they teaching these things in Math, or is it Science, or is it Language Arts, PE, computer class, home economics? Oh I get it, the education system is teaching this in history. Can one change history? Perhaps we should ban certain books. That’ll solve the problem, in fact it’ll solve all the other problems mentioned above.
Lonnie writes: "The purpose of this post was to demonstrate that politics in Church is divisive and NOT consistent with the values of the Christian religion."
That's the same manipulative garbage we've been getting from the ACOGs forever. They try to stomp on freedom of thought and freedom of speach with their false accusations of causing division, offence, harming members faith, disturbing social harmony etc. All banana republics do the same.
" I have absolutely zero fear of Kamala Harris becoming a dictator, or disrupting the world's balance of power."
Me either. She is but a puppet. The Puppet Master is the one to be afraid of. Obama went to work building a machine after Trump's victory in 2016. He has been calling the shots ever since. Of course, we know who is in control of Obama's strings. The ending of the book doesn't change, no matter who occupies the White House.
Once upon a time, I was president of Spokesman Club. I was surprised when I was appointed and had never cherished the role. At the time, it seemed like something very important. Now, I think of it as a wry joke. But I did learn something about congregational politics. A couple of months into my term, a member of the congregation approached me and told me that it was time for me to put on a Lady’s Night. It was not a suggestion. It was an order. I was taken aback because I did not see how a lay member could give me this kind of direction when it was none of his business. But I also realized, as I considered what he ordered me to do, that he was a close friend of the pastor and the two played golf together. I understood that I was trumped. I arranged the Lady’s Night and all went well. But it left me thinking about the force of denominational politics.
The fact is, governments of nations are political bodies. And denominations are political bodies. That is the human condition. We cannot as members of a denomination stand aloof from all politics any more than we can quit being human. And often governmental politics will interact with denominational politics as David Koresh and the Branch Davidians tragically discovered. Herman Hoeh told me that the WCG’s racial policies back in the Seventies were never theological but an attempt to avoid conflict with the larger society. As followers of Jesus, who spoke of a government not of this world, we are left to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear during our tenure in worldly society. Maybe hermit monks have the right idea.
I do not like the fact that the right-wing receives such ardent support from White evangelicals in the South. After I deduct the effect of nominalism, there are still, I believe, confused Christians who have adopted positions that are unloving. We need loving shepherds in our governments and our denominations. The Don Rickles act as gone on long enough.
Scout
Oh no! The bogeyman white nationalists! My pearls! My pearls!
White Nationalist is basically a term to disparage white (men) who dare want to protect American borders and maintain its self-sovereignty. But, alas, they are white and critical race theory teaches that they are racist no matter what they do or claim which would indicate they are not racist. It's part of the cognitive dissonance that is intentional; it is meant to disrupt society and keep us on edge. Those purveyors in critical race theory admit this.
Anyway, there are racists for sure...and of every color. But, the term "white nationalist" is a tool to mean racist while casting a net to include most white people that believe in border protection.
The Dem party throws around the term "joy" while knowing that their strategies do not desire a joyful country but rather one on edge...you know, every white person on this thread is racist even if they are apologizing for the past and admitting to their racist nature thereby following the critical race demand of being anti-racist (btw, this doesn't mean you are not racist, just admitting to your racism). To claim one is non-racist is actually considered part of the problem. Yes, cognitive dissonance. Call it for what it is and don't use the terms of the agitators.
I would argue more that politics and the political news cycle (temporal matters) are less important than spiritual matters, and therefore should, at the very least, be considered carnal entertainment. But I realize that is not the position of many.
Couldn't let that one slide. NO, it's not the same. The Worldwide Church and its descendants believe in authority and imposing unity on those subject to that authority. They forbid or discourage the free exchange of ideas. Moreover, if their membership doesn't toe the line, they disfellowship the offending person. I, on the other hand, have offered a rationale for keeping politics out of Church, and I was very explicit in stating that everyone must follow the dictates of his/her own conscience. Sorry, that's NOTHING like what the ACOGs or banana republics do!
According to Shakespeare, all the world is a stage and all the men and women merely players. I might add, nothing organic happens in this world system because it is all carefully planned. Planned by who you ask? I have to go with John 1016 on this one: "we wrestle not against flesh and blood".
There's really no reason to get excited about this political game being played. Speaking of the distant future, 453 says, " the ending of the book doesn't change no matter who occupies the White House ". Speaking of the present, I might add that regardless of who gets elected, nothing positive will change or get done for the people because the system is designed that way.
Ronald Reagan's plan to transfer wealth to the wealthy has been the plan of every president since 1900. Kamala says her plan will force the rich to pay their fair share. Joe said the same thing at the beginning of his term. It hasn't happened yet and it never will. And how many presidents have made promises about this immigration muck we're stuck in?
With one month to go till the election, chaos is beginning to break out all over. Iran chooses now to attack Israel. The dock workers have picked the worst time to strike and shut down the supply chains at the very time our citizens in the southeast are suffering and in need, and voting issues are going to become a major problem in parts of the country without power and mobility. The election may even get postponed!
Yep, sounds like the plan is working!
7:37 Don't forget about protecting that northern border from the other white people. Protect the borders? Is this a thing? Why was illegal immigration never a problem in the 80's, 90's 00's? They never throw illegals in jail for breaking the law. Maybe if the Rep party wouldn't throw the term "freedom" around so much while knowing that their strategies do not desire a country that produces "freedom" rather a country leads to bondage. Such as paying them for cheap labor, which drives up tax payers dollars. Maybe if Reagan would have nipped it in the bud long time ago, America wouldn't be in this situation. However America is a land of immigrants, but that's your critical race theory. Don't worry it's not bullying, school shootings, sex with the students, medicating our boys. Just a little history.
Great Post 10:35 !!! You would think with wisdom the ACOGs would understand that nothing is really new underneath the sun. And speaking of the sun, there may be more hurricanes coming. Seems like those other host are perhaps at work. Stay safe everybody.
"White Nationalist is basically a term to disparage white (men) who dare want to protect American borders and maintain its self-sovereignty."
As someone who used to cover WN groups well before they became somewhat more openly aligned with the mainstream, NO, that is not what that term means.
However, if you mean that it's become a buzzword for some folks to throw around inaccurately like a kid who just learned a new word, yes, that is often true, and I don't like seeing it.
Well, 7:37, look around you! I'm sure that there are moderate (relatively speaking) White Nationalists, but that movement does meet the preferred criteria of your typical racist, and so many racists have been attracted to it.
I for one do not tend to just throw around the term "racist". As an example, someone with a confederate flag could just be proud to be from the South. Canadian superstars, the Guess Who, were using their maple leaf as a backdrop on stage long before Lynyrd Skynyrd used the Stars and Bars on theirs. Racists would not write an ode to a black dobro player, like The Ballad of Curtis Loew. I like to see evidence of how someone treats others before labeling them as a racist. If a politician deliberately makes laws to keep people of color from voting, I think it's fair to call him racist, although he will usually find some neutral explanation to make his racism seem perfectly logical.
I had a old redneck beer drinking buddy whom someone once called a racist. He quipped, "Naw! I'm just half a racist! I only hate the guys!" We all know that half a racist is still a racist, don't we?
I'm old enough to have been in business before the laws were changed to hold employers accountable for hiring undocumented workers. I remember hearing some of my coworkers standing around the coffee maker one morning, discussing how Mike up in the Valley had been raided by Immigration, and all his employees had dispersed, so he had to shut down for the day and hope they'd find their way back in the morning. That's the way business was done for many years. I once worked in a shop where young white kids were flaking off, and soon, responsible, married immigrants who made their way across the border replaced them, and worked harder for lower wages. Of course they were being exploited, but they felt very fortunate because they were making far more money than at home.
Ultimum Cornu
"And the seventh angel sounded, and there were great voices in Heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign for ever and ever!”
The Feast of Trumpets is a foreshadow of Christ. On that day, all the politics will end.
Scout
Obama? Actually, I was hoping that He will be amongst Kamala's most valued advisers. Without a doubt, Mr. Obama was one of the greatest presidents in the history of the USA. The way he was able to guide us through the greatest recession in modern times, and into full recovery was nothing short of miraculous. Ignorant people resented the fact that a Black man could even be president, and their uproar in the aftermath was what caused the Trump phenomenon. Ignorant people elected an ignorant, crass, misogynistic, and vile president. And they're trying to do it again! Thank God we have our beloved Kamala!
7:55 , I'm not an Obama fan, but you do have a point about getting us out of the recession that the Bush admin put us in. By the way, the ACOGs ministers thought it was going to be the end of the world when Obama was elected. The sermons were a mini tragedy. And, yea I can see them doing it all over again.
Richard is our own version of Alex P. Keaton! I'd just bet he has an old bust of Nixon secreted away along with his sabbath service notes in some closet in one of his residences. For some reason, he likes the attention he gets when he baits Lonnie, and makes up Trump-speak names for him.
If I were Lonnie, I wouldn't worry about it. It's not as if the baiting accusations make Lonnie an "offender of the brethren."
Richard, you sure have a hard on for Lonnie! Can't you comment on anything else any more? Everything in your life OK, Dude?
I tried.
Yes you did, but it goes to show you that people (or members from splinters) will still try use politics in their congregation even when they say otherwise.
Yes Lonnie you tried but I think you are waging a war you cannot win.
The issue at hand is the kingdom of man versus the kingdom of God. Being human, we will never perfectly move away from our humanity and perfectly divorce ourselves from thinking we can solve (individually or collectively) our own problems. There are too many variables and human choices to choose from, and it requires great faith to accept and practice God's solutions, especially when we can't even agree on what that is.
In this regard, politics is no different from religion, science, or economics. We have choices. The question is, do we really think these choices will really solve our problems?
I despise politicians, including Trump and Harris. Both make promises they can't keep, and both are mired in the kingdom of man. I don't vote, but using the carnal criteria of how this choice affects ME, I prospered more under Trump, enjoyed more personal freedoms, and as a rule, identified more with the Republican platform. In that way, he's better.
We do the same thing with religion. On this site, we can condemn Armstrongism, and cultic behavior in favor of what pleases us but politics should be off limits?
Also, We can eschew politics but follow the "science" hook, line and sinker, as if it's fact. It becomes so factual that we will condemn any alternative opinion on health or climate and dub it as conspiracy theory. Conspiracy theory according to WHO?? God or the kingdom of man?
The human wide gate leads to destruction while the narrow gate of course is the kingdom of God. The perfect man Jesus Christ is the only human to ever understand this perfectly. John 7:7 states:
"The world cannot hate you (because most of the time we are in agreement with it), but me it hates because I testify of it that the works thereof are evil".
Do we believe this? Should not this be preached by those who follow Christ?
The works of the kingdom of man are evil and the answer to that dilemma is the kingdom of God. Until we all are convinced of that, we will continue to argue, debate, and spin our wheels.
The ultimate condemnation is " cursed is the man who trusts in man" (Jer.17:5). We are human beings, that is what we do. We will never cease from doing this entirely till "Christ be formed in us" (Gal. 4:19). That's when the war is won!
Okay, but did you prosper more under Reagan, more under Clinton, more under Bush, Obama, Bush 1 than Trump? A lot of people loss due to Trumps response to the virus. And if it weren’t for the virus, he’d still be in office. But Trump really isn’t a Republican, as his movement has hijacked the party.
Good write up, but it boils down to the denial of the self. And if one truly believes the words “My kingdom is not of this world” then it’s really an essential part in believing the gospel of the kingdom. But the politicking displays unbelief.
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