Falling away was always a scary topic in WCG. Getting "turned over to Satan" was no small problem for the unbelieving, rebellious towards Church everything, tired of all the scandal, stuck with an authoritarian and incapable of love and mercy type Pastor, unable or unwilling to give til it hurt, and it did or any number of other issues that could play hard on the mind of the member or the minister.
One got "marked" and dis-membered real quick and often publically back in the day. Later, when it was more a flood of fallers away, not so much.
At any rate, the church "wished them no ill, but that they would repent". However, some scriptures indicated that it was too late to repent while others would extend an olive branch of kindness. Most who fell never wanted to return anyway.
I spoke with a former AC student who was accused by the Administration of "being gay." He wasn't but that was that for him. He left when he declared "I am not gay," and the pastor simply told asked him "Do you believe we are God's chosen ministry?" In other words, "if we think you are gay and we discern that you are gay, we are not wrong." So he "fell away".
The scriptures on the topic are pretty tough on the one who questions, get's tired or simply can't take this or that any longer.
They range from "once and done" to "aw, come on back and all is forgiven." Most opt for the second as losing members these days is a problem, and Churches have to keep the numbers up.
Even in the First Century, one had the option of falling away from either the Jewish Christian version of the truth or the Pauline Genitle version. And early in the game, the NT is filled with the charges and countercharges each had for the other illustrating this early problem. Falling away so early in the history of the NT church was pretty common. They came, they saw, the left either following others such as Apollo or Paul or in the case of WCG, Larry, Moe or Curly.
The Author of Hebrews says: Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
However, James says: James 5:19-20
My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
And Even Paul Says: 1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
But then the author of "Peter" says: 2 Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”
But then Paul Says: Romans 11:19-22
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
(Note: "kindness" but also "severity" makes no sense to me personally. It's the "Compulsory fear and Compulsory love" problem. You know, as the sign on the Interstate said, "Love Jesus or burn forever in Hell". )
So aside from the concept of "you have had it" to "no, you can be salvaged, the question in our day and age becomes "Fall away from who or what?"
Currently there are over 45,000 differing Christian denominations with all having various twists and turns of belief than the others. All believe they are "the faith once delivered" and NO ONE believes they belong to" the false church" or that their faith is misplaced or their beliefs mistaken.
Many of these differences are not minor. Some are tolerant of others and let them "also be true Christians" but many insist on being "the true Church" and you are not.
So if you fall away from a True Church, big trouble Biblically. If you fall away from "Christianity falsely so called" or "Churchianity" as WCG often portrayed everyone else, no biggy, as long as you come "into the truth" of the WCG. Many others churches feel this way about themselves as well.
How often I heard as a pastor during the crazy times, "I have not fallen away from the Church! The Church has fallen away from me!". How little did those people realize just how much further the Church they knew and originally was drawn to would fall away from everyone.
Huge topic and in the mix of us that read and contribute to Bannedhwa, having shared our common first love of our youth, we now find every combination of human religious affiliation or not common to man, here on Bannedhwa as well.
What say you about all this?
49 comments:
"Falling away" was a bigger fear before the WCG splits, because many members thought there was no other good option in "the world."
In this era of splits, people barred from one COG can more easily go to another COG - or maybe worship in the same COG, only online from home.
I know of one suspended member doing the latter, because of relatives still attending his/her congregation in person. It seems awkward, but that's what he/she is doing.
“Currently there are over 45,000 differing Christian denominations with all having various twists and turns of belief than the others. All believe they are 'the faith once delivered' and NO ONE believes they belong to 'the false church' or that their faith is misplaced or their beliefs mistaken.” -- DCD
The Roman Catholic Church and its Protestant daughter churches are pagan SUNDAY-KEEPING churches and NOT biblical SABBATH-KEEPING churches.
This means that approximately two billion professing “Christians” are simply DECEIVED and WRONG!
I can"t even imagine the sheer impact of one's "spiritual guides" falsely accusing one of being gay. Hopefully, that would be seen as debunking the very possibility that the minister's baptism and ordination were valid.
I will take on one point. Dennis cites the following scripture:
“For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.”
This is one of the power scriptures for the Armstrongist ministry. It supports the administrative action of disfellowshipping which equates to the cancellation of a person’s salvation. And what is read into the scripture above, as an eisegesis, is that the person involved will be annihilated in Gehenna. This makes the Armstrongist ministry look really big and really scary.
But, in fact, this passage says nothing about annihilation in Gehenna. What it does elucidate is that there are some things that are beyond the power of the ministry. Very much the opposite of how the scripture is used by Armstrongists. It states that it is “impossible” for men, to wit the ministry, to restore someone to salvation under these rare circumstances. But Jesus said in another context, “‘With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” I should add that I believe in postmortem salvation and believe there is a solid Biblical argument for it. So, this scripture is saying that these people cannot be renewed to repentance and must be placed in the hands of God for rehabilitation - either in this life or the next.
The idea that the Armstrongist ministry could cancel someone’s salvation through disfellowshipping is absurd. Do you think God would actually entrust a minister who was trained in the odd hierarchical (perhaps, even pathological) society of Ambassador College with someone’s salvation as an administrative task? I think not. What is important to remember is that disfellowshipping does not equate to the cancellation of salvation.
Scout
Nah, happened all the time in the gay witchhunts of the late 1980s. The nosy old white women of the congregation would start the rumor and eventually run to the minister wailing about it once they got all worked up, then the poor sap would get confronted and his protests usually fell on deaf ears.
I "fell away" from Herbert and his lie he was Christ's apostle - in 1979.
Falling away? Most of the singles that I socialized with at services behaved worse than the "worldly" people at work. A young Canadian woman I dated at a feast site told me that there was more pressure to sexually compromise inside the church than outside the church. Falling away presupposes that members initially embraced God's way, but that was not my experience. Paul told the Pharisees to bring fruits worthy of repentance prior to water baptism, but it seems that the Church of Herb ignored this for the same of numbers and their tithe money.
The Roman Catholic Church and its Protestant daughter churches are pagan SUNDAY-KEEPING churches and NOT biblical SABBATH-KEEPING churches.
This means that approximately two billion professing “Christians” are simply DECEIVED and WRONG!
===============
Ok, if those are your rules then you only 500 Sabbath keeping of all kinds of denominations to sort through
https://www.the-ten-commandments.org/sabbathkeepingchurches.html#:~:text=Below%20is%20a%20list%20of%20over
So even in the Sabbath Keeping Churches, getting bounced from one leaves one hundreds of others to migrate to.
DCD at 10:56 AM,
There are not really that many good options.
Some groups have the weekly Sabbaths, but not the annual Sabbaths.
Most groups do not have the correct name, the Church of God.
Hundreds of ignorant and crazy people each with their own tiny little weirdo group does not mean hundreds of good options.
Even larger little splinter groups from the WCG like PCG and RCG are clearly satanic and led by nasty false prophets who promote themselves excessively and guess wrong excessively.
The book of Hebrews is dealing with who Jesus is and what He has done. The sin addressed is unbelief.
If you are a Believer and decide to reject the savior and reject the commandment to love others, instead turning back to the old covenant, rejecting His offer of salvation, that’s what it seems to me the context is pointing to.
We are saved by grace through faith and that produces the fruit of the Spirit. Rejecting grace for a return to the law (including rejecting His complete atonement for us) is a very dangerous place to be… Jesus is the safest place to be.
“Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner. For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises. For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, saying, “Surely blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you.” And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute. Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us. This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.”
Hebrews 6:1-20 NKJV
Well there's that! :)
https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2024/10/satan-is-not-all-that.html
https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2014/04/excommunication-part-ii.html
https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2014/04/excommunication-part-iii.html
https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2014/04/excommunication-part-iv.html
Interesting. Some folks continue to use HWA's "redefining" of what a true Christian is as their gold standard.
And that was one of HWA's chief techniques. That particular author of heresy wanted to be the only one whose definitions were correct, even if they were not!. It's easy to see how his trainees thought they could label a straight person as gay without so much as the opportunity to submit to a simple fart test!
Anonymous 1:43
I was looking at the scenario and you are looking at a point within the scenario. Specifically, you are offering an interpretation of what the term "fallen away" might refer to. I do agree with what you have cited. I think those who abandon Christ and go back to the Law of Moses are a part of the category that the author of Hebrews is addressing. They may even be the prominent part, in the spirit of The Circumcision Party. But I also think the writer is giving us a generall principle.
Scout
If one is bounced from a church, it's a common experience for the reason for the bounce and their "dirt file" to find it's way to the migrated church. The splinter ministers have an agreement with each other to that effect.
that's it then all so simple. As sabbath keeping churches can only be true Christians we wipe two billion into the dustbin labelled ''so called Christians'';;. Now of the hundreds of 'biblical SABBATH-KEEPING churches' the only true Christians are ??????? Mmm no doubt we end up with this amazing reasoning back to the one Armstrong offshoot concerned, Conclusion - then we must agree there are only a few hundred or few thousand Christians on earth.
Life is so simple!
The Bible is clear that the last era of the church will go through the fire of the Great Tribulation, "...because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth....I counsel you to buy of me gold tried in the fire..." (Revelation 3:16; 18). They are called by God but not chosen. Only God knows the few chosen worthy to escape the fire. The good thing is that God left clues in Revelation 3:8 to identify those who qualify to escape:-
1. They "have little strength" ("dunamis" - miraculous power)
2. They "have kept my word"
3. "𝐀𝐧𝐝 𝐡𝐚𝐯𝐞 𝐧𝐨𝐭 𝐝𝐞𝐧𝐢𝐞𝐝 𝐦𝐲 𝐧𝐚𝐦𝐞"
"Because you have kept the word of my patience, I also will keep you from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Revelation 3:10)
The key is understanding the last part of Revelation 3:8, "...𝐀𝐧𝐝 𝐡𝐚𝐯𝐞 𝐧𝐨𝐭 𝐝𝐞𝐧𝐢𝐞𝐝 𝐦𝐲 𝐧𝐚𝐦𝐞". It is a key attribute of a Philadelphian.
But what is to deny the name of Christ? Does one have to say, ‘’I deny Christ? Is it leaving the church? Can we know what it is exactly? The answer is yes but this can only be addressed in a comprehensive article to fully answer the question.
"Falling away" from any of these COGs makes no real difference because the entire era will be tried in the fire. It just makes it more difficult for a person who once knew the truth but completely went back to the old self to make a comeback. But it is much safer for a person to be disconnected from the COGs because they have all denied the name of Christ since HWA!
Why do you need " church of god " on the letter head.
Scout 818 makes some valid points concerning the limitations of the ministry, that some things are beyond their power. What comes to mind is the conversion experience of one Saul of Tarsus.
We all are familiar with Saul's track record, a firebrand who persecuted the church to the very extreme. The disciples were fearful of him even after his conversion (Acts 9).
As Saul dogged the church, he obviously heard the finest sermons and preaching of the gospel know to man. But? As Spock remarked after the Enterprise phaser barrage on Nomad, "NO EFFECT"!!! Was he a lost cause? No, Jesus Christ PERSONALLY stepped in, converted him, and made him perhaps the most productive and influential apostle of them all (Acts 22)!
Paul says, as Chief of sinners " I obtained mercy, that in me first, Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a PATTERN to them which should hereafter believe on Him to everlasting life". (1 Tim.1:16).
A Pattern? Think of the ramifications of that one.
"Good options" is also a function of one's personal definition of "True Church"
The entire era will be tried in the tribulation? Sort of. Some members believed that they would qualify for the kingdom via the tribulation, but have since died. There's no promise that any member will live long enough to experience the tribulation.
Faith in Christ and His salvific sacrifice with fruits of the Holy Spirit is an assured path. The COGs messed people up.
Except that there is nothing in the text to suggest that the seven churches are "eras" in the first place. They could just as easily be seven groups in the same timeframe.
Patterns can help us discern, but can also require a long time, during which horrible damage is done.
Probably the worst example of damage during our modern times would be David Pack. His pattern would seem to prove that it was not God who called Dave away from swimming or health food stores! Not even!
Great trib of Mat 24:21 is coming!!!!......??? Total opposite of what the verse says. It occurred in Judea in the first century.
BP8, Tuesday, October 8, 2024 at 5:04:56 AM PDT, wrote:
"...Scout 818 makes some valid points concerning the limitations of the ministry, that some things are beyond their power. What comes to mind is the conversion experience of one Saul of Tarsus.
We all are familiar with Saul's track record, a firebrand who persecuted the church to the very extreme. The disciples were fearful of him even after his conversion (Acts 9)...
...Paul says, as Chief of sinners " I obtained mercy, that in me first, Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a PATTERN to them which should hereafter believe on Him to everlasting life". (1 Tim.1:16).
A Pattern? Think of the ramifications of that one.
******
A Pattern, a shadow, an example, ramifications? The ramifiations are awesome, but are they to be appreciated?
For example, Paul spoke of himself writing: "Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief." 1 Timothy 1:13
Paul ignorantly was a blasphemer, but done in unbelief. Does it matter whether it was in unbelief or belief? Think of the ramifications?
Paul, in the next two verses, went on to express his appreciation of grace in his life:
:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
:15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."
Think of the ramifications of being a blasphemer? What would Jesus Christ say? Oh, we have His words, too:
"Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:" Mark 3:28
And Jesus did mean all sins...and blasphemies!
What say you about all of this good news?
And time will tell...
John
John asks, "what say you about all this good news"?
Anything Jesus does is good news indeed, which was my point. Jesus can save even when the ministry condemns and separates. Paul is the example (pattern) for he was not converted by the preaching of the early Church.
I believe this is one of the strongest arguments for postmortem salvation. With God, all things are possible.
Anon writes: "The Roman Catholic Church and its Protestant daughter churches are pagan SUNDAY-KEEPING churches and NOT biblical SABBATH-KEEPING churches."
You are not excluded -- COGs are daughters of daughters of daughters of mainline Protestants. They are super-Protestants, as they think their Protestant forebears didn't protest enough.
Look at this graphical history: https://archive.gci.org/files/rootschart1.gif
“For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.”
What really disturbs me about this is that it is referring to someone who is a Christian. I think of Christians as being Elect from “before the foundation of the Cosmos.” I think of them as being predestined to glorification. But, yet, the statement above describes someone who was once a Christian and now has become profoundly fallen away from that status. So much so that the author of Hebrews does not believe it does any good to try to bring such a person back. Only God himself can regenerate this person through whatever actions and methods. I think of the Prodigal Son. Maybe the actions are afflictive.
By far and large, this warning in Hebrews does not apply to Armstrongists. You can’t fall away from heresy. I think of the odd sects that started up in the first few centuries BC. Jesus was a character in what they believed but there was always something odd – like Gnostics believing he was a kind of Demi-urge. These sects seem to start out with a belief in Jesus but then meandered into bizarre mythologies. It is distressing to think of a group of genuine Christians stumbling into darkness together and becoming Gnostics. You can imagine, though it seems implausible, a Christian sitting down one day and saying to himself “I believe in Jesus but I am going to make up a whole bunch of weird stuff to go along with that belief” and we have the Ebionites. What happened? Why? What was the final outcome?
Scout
Anon @ Tuesday, October 8, 2024 at 9:46:45 AM PDT
Yes, the seven churches already existed when John penned the Book of Revelation, but the interpretation is prophetic. Christ had already mentioned that the church would exist from the day it was built until the end of times (Matt 16:18). John was inspired to record the progression of the church until the last eras that would either be protected (Rev 3:10) or face the Great Tribulation (Rev 3:18). The historic churches of Philadelphia and Laodicea are all dead. There is no way they will see the Great Tribulation.
That's dependent on if 'splinter ministers' are AC friends.
The infamous 'dirt files' are highly likely to be filled with foregone conclusions, cognitively bias and
false information.
"Only God himself can regenerate this person through whatever actions and methods."
That's a myth. God can encourage people to repent, but at the end of the day, people can only fix themselves. When Solomon fell away, God stirred up some enemies against him, but he still didn't repent. Some people are irredeemable, defined as "not able to be saved, improved, or corrected." The existence of the lake of fire is another proof of this.
I know from experience that this is easy to say, but very painful to accept if it's a good friend or family member.
The COG Catholic @ Tuesday, October 8, 2024 at 6:37:01 PM PDT
This intriguing archive confirms my suspicions that HWA and all offshoots of WCG originated from false foundations. Here is the outlook.
1. During the Sardis era, some members left the 7th Day Baptist Church to join William Miller and later influenced Ellen G. White to observe the Sabbath. Ellen G. White (EGW) was a proponent of vegetarianism, which aligns with the warning in 1 Timothy 4:1-3 about some departing from the faith in the latter times, “...giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils…commanding to abstain from meats…”. EGW claimed to have received over 2,000 visions and dreams from God, none of which came true, and we know what the Bible says about such claims. It is evident that she was influenced by demonic spirits.
2. During the Philadelphia era, HWA introduced the observance of the law of Moses, specifically the Feast Days, as a commandment to keep. This aligns with Peter’s warning in 2 Peter 2:1-3 about the rise of “…false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them…many shall follow their pernicious ways…through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you…”. This is precisely what HWA did. Observing the Feast Days of Leviticus 23 (the law of Moses) is seen as denying the sacrifice of Christ, who nailed these ordinances to the cross (Colossians 2:14). More people were baptized in the WCG than in any other COG era, and HWA extracted money from God’s flock to the point of bankrupting many, while he enjoyed wining and dining with the kings of the world and flying around in a private jet. HWA marked the advent of the synagogue of Satan, capturing the church and fulfilling the warning in Revelation 3:9.
3. Now, in the Laodicean era we have David C. Pack who claims to lead the only true church of God but is the last despot in the COG who is fulfilling 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 before the return of Christ! Pack has claimed more than 34 titles of Christ for himself and asserts that he will rule in one of the phases of the Kingdom of God while Christ remains in the background. This is essentially making himself out to be God!
Paul had the genetic trait of being a truth seeker. He was like the kid who exclaimed that the emperor's clothes were non existent. He had always obeyed the truth rather than man, which is why he quickly did an about face when corrected by God. Truth seekers are rare, so I don't believe his example is applicable to most people.
“Turned over to Satan: Dis-Membered From Which and What?”
If you really want to get torn apart by vicious wolves and mercilessly dis-membered, try Satan's favorite false prophet Gerald Flurry, or Satan's backup false prophet David Pack.
You ain't never been really torn apart limb from limb until you've been officially dis-membered by one or more of Satan's false prophets.
With Satan personally helping them, they know how to do it the very best (that is, the very worst). They do all of their own evil in the name of God.
The COG catholic at 6:37 PM,
The One True Church uses a different graphical history than the one you linked to.
The One True Church might be relatively very small in this present evil age. Evilutionists, Buddhists, Sikhs, Muslims, and modern pagans like the Roman Catholics and Protestants are not in this exclusive club. They all are part of the massive religious confusion in this present evil age when Satan has deceived the whole world. They will be called later.
Speaking of "turned over to Satan," the ACOGs teach that Feast sites are held where God places His name. Has anyone asked LCG Feast organizers why God placed his name on Palmetto, Florida, directly in the path of Hurricane Milton? Does God hate the LCG brethren, or are they guilty of some sins He feels He needs to punish them for? Hurricane Milton makes Bwana Bob's tornado-ripped Headquarters roof look like small potatoes by comparison.
Anon 2:21:08 AM PDT
‘but he didn’t repent’.
The book of Ecclesiastes would indeed point to a lesson being learnt about life.
Many, perhaps the majority of commentaries argue that Solomon did turn back to his Maker as evidenced by his writings.
11.53, God is compassionate and forgiving, so I find it hard to believe that God punished Solomon by taking all the tribes except to one from his son, if he had repented at the end. Solomon's writings is proof that wisdom and character are not one and the same. Nothing is wasted in nature, so that God allowed Solomon's writings to remain is unsurprising.
Like I said, it's painful to emotionally accept that loved one's have fallen away, so some commentaries claiming that Solomon had a deathbed repentance is to be expected.
Anon 12:33:06 PM PDT
I personally don’t believe the division of Israel was due to Solomons repentance or otherwise, but it does point to the folly of youth with its immaturity and arrogance and lack of foresight. Solomons son’s decision was indeed folly and God used it to bring division to Israel. Keep safe out there folks, especially you people of Florida.
Anonymous 2:21 wrote, “God can encourage people to repent, but at the end of the day, people can only fix themselves.”
In this statement you have made out God to be an incompetent savior. He wants everyone to be saved and, therefore, Jesus died for everyone, but God just cannot pull it off. The God who is absolute and created the Cosmos can bring about conditions in a person’s life that will lead to repentance. The “myth” is really the idea that humans can save themselves. Repentance is a gift (Acts 18:11). It is not something that we generate ourselves as you state. Calling comes from God. Justification is a gift. I am not sure what it is that people are to do to “fix themselves.”
Solomon did not repent but God is not finished with him. Just like Paul asserted that God is not through with Israel, hence, all Israel shall be saved. For this to be true, there must be a post-mortem opportunity for salvation.
I am interested in how you formed this idea. What you state is something that even Armstrongists do not believe. Herbert W. Armstrong wrote in a 1986 article, “Jesus Christ said that none can come to Him, except the Spirit of the Father draw him. God grants repentance.”
Scout
Yea 11:53, Ecclesiastes indicates Solomon at an old age looking back and realizing his mistakes. Perhaps God was merciful to him.
Annon 901 says, "I don't believe his (Paul's) example is applicable to most people".
I guess one could make the case that Paul was special and chosen for a unique mission, but it is Paul himself who calls his experience a " pattern" for others. How so?
Paul admits he was an evil man, chief of sinners. The traditional method, the preaching of the gospel by the early church, had no effect on him, he had his own agenda. For all practical purposes, he was doomed if not for Jesus Christ intervening with a direct, face to face encounter. Since God is no respecter of persons, Christ will do the same for anyone if that's what it takes.
Anon, Wednesday, October 9, 2024 at 2:21:08 AM PDT, wrote:
[["Only God himself can regenerate this person through whatever actions and methods."
That's a myth. God can encourage people to repent, but at the end of the day, people can only fix themselves. When Solomon fell away, God stirred up some enemies against him, but he still didn't repent. Some people are irredeemable, defined as "not able to be saved, improved, or corrected." The existence of the lake of fire is another proof of this.
I know from experience that this is easy to say, but very painful to accept if it's a good friend or family member.]]
******
No, Anon 2:21:08, the following is not a myth: "Only God himself can regenerate this person through whatever actions and methods."
Is there a myth in what you wrote? Yes, and it is: "God can encourage people to repent, but at the end of the day, people can only fix themselves."
So far, only Jesus Christ when He was 100% flesh and blood, just like us, was perfect and sinless.
Name some human being, just one, that fixed him/herSELF. Jesus, of Himself, He could do nothing, yet He, like His steps, were directed somehow. Weren't they? They had to be.
Here, let Jeremiah, inspired by The God, The God of Abraham Laughter and Israel, tell us something, and believe it, b/c it isn't a myth:
"O LORD, I know that the way of man [is] not in himself: [it is] not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jeremiah 10:23
Solomon couldn't do it, of and by himself. No man can! Israel didn't do it, but why not?
"Yet the LORD hath NOT GIVEN you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day." Deut 29:4
So much for choose life/death, good/evil, blessing/cursing! God knows that: He inspired it.
Solomon's heart was just like your heart:
"The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Jer 17:9
Yes, and my heart too. I am not an exception. What is that heart, that carnal mind (Romans 8:7), really like? Check it out before the Flood:
"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually." Genesis 6:5
Duh! And what was it after the flood? Same thing! Look it up for yourSELF: Genesis 8:21 Well, I'll quote some or it for you: "...for the imagination of man s heart [is] evil from his youth;..."
Yet, people are not irredeemable!
To be continued…
John
Continuing…
What did Jesus say about our hearts?
"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:" Matthew 15:19
That is your heart, my heart, our hearts, and remember that is from our youth! How does that get changed, b/c you cannot fix yourSELF. Do you want proof? If you fixed yourSELF, you would no longer be sinning!
No wonder the apostle told us the following:
"Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." Romans 7:17
And think about this one:
"For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye CANNOT DO the things that ye would." Galatians 5:17
You fix yourSELF? Think again!
Scout cited the truth to you when he wrote to you this: “Jesus Christ said that none can come to Him, except the Spirit of the Father draw him. God grants repentance.”
Of course, HWA based all of that on scriptures such as:…e.g. John 6:44, 12:32; Acts 5:31; 2 Tim 2:25; Phil 1:6, etc. Done deal!
Solomon, like his daddy David, and prophet Jeremiah will come up saved in the second resurrection...Thanks to God by His power thru Jesus Christ. Paul understood The God's gift of grace and what God was doing within His Plan to save all humanity and subsequently destroy Satan and his angels. 1 Cor 8:6
That lake of fire will provide the second death for Satan and his angels. Why? Because while it has been appointed once for humans to die, those vile, evil, things have reservations for that lake; humans don't, but time will tell...
Oh, and your good friend and family member? Solomon told us this:
"For [there is] not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not." Ec 7:20
Will you, any of us, fix your/our SELF/SELVES? Will you thank God, regardless of the steps taken in this life, that you are not irredeemable?
Time will tell...
John
BP8, Thursday, October 10, 2024 at 4:53:31 AM PDT, wrote:
Annon 901 says, "I don't believe his (Paul's) example is applicable to most people".
I guess one could make the case that Paul was special and chosen for a unique mission, but it is Paul himself who calls his experience a " pattern" for others. How so?
Paul admits he was an evil man, chief of sinners. The traditional method, the preaching of the gospel by the early church, had no effect on him, he had his own agenda. For all practical purposes, he was doomed if not for Jesus Christ intervening with a direct, face to face encounter. Since God is no respecter of persons, Christ will do the same for anyone if that's what it takes.
******
Amen to that reply...
John
"Paul admits he was an evil man, chief of sinners."
That's hyperbole, defined as: "exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally." Paul was a member of a cult called the Pharisees, and had his mind imprisoned by their many lies. Paul's road to Damascus experience shattered these mental chains, resulting in his conversion. Every person on this planet is deceived to some degree, but it's the minority, like Paul who repent when these falsehoods are exposed. The existence of the ACOGs and their shenanigans is one proof of this. The fundamental reason that people can only fix themselves is that humans are made in Gods mental image. Just like the periodic table in chemistry and its laws, there's a basic reality that God honors. Otherwise there's no existence.
I believe the East Indians (Hindu) are really into something with their concept of generating perfect Karma (cause and effect). Humans can keep the law as Armstrongism demands, and do it in such a way that it produces very toxic karma. There is most certainly a place in Christianity to consider the karma that our behavior produces.
BB
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