Love just flows from the folks in Cincinnati, Ohio. Never has a Church of God had such brotherly love.
Mr. Elliott greeted the Council. He went on to mention that the home office works as a family; they encourage and help each other out. Anyone can go to anyone else at the home office for assistance, and all are pleased to assist one another.
If only that "love" extended outwards to the church members. It is not all rosy out in the land of the sheep.
He emphasized that Jesus is leading this Church to make disciples of all nations (Matthew 28:19- 20). The home office has a responsibility to serve the Church’s needs here at the home office, in the United States, and throughout the world. He expressed that being at the home office has given him a new perspective on how much is done by the home office staff. The staff is giving their all to the advancement of God’s work and they look to God daily for direction and help.
No other COG group is doing a "work" better than UCG. Woo Hoo! But, don't Woo Hoo too much... Elliott goes on to say that the church is not performing well when it comes to younger members. Did anyone know they had any?
Mr. Elliott expressed a renewed focus on young families in the Church who may feel underserved. He mentioned that the Council approved some extra focus on that demographic, which will be reflected in the upcoming Strategic Plan.
Again, we are 30 years down the road and the strategic plan still hasn't been figured out. Never mind that, though; it is important to go and visit other COG groups and strive for agape love.
One thing he did say—and this will set Samuel Kitchen's detectors off—is that when visiting other COG groups, "...the 'children' of God wish for the 'parents' to get back together." Maybe Samuel is the one to do it! But again, do not get too excited because he goes on to say it won't be happening, even after all their repenting and striving.
Mr. Elliott said he recently visited Mr. Gerald Weston and his staff at the Living Church of God offices in North Carolina. He has also recently spoken with Mr. Jim Franks at the COGWA offices. He mentioned that most of what we all do is done in triplicate, such as with offices, hall rentals, travel, and Feast sites, etc. Mr. Elliott assured everyone that while there is no desire to combine, it seems most members wish we were together. He then compared what has happened in some cases to a divorce in a family. He said such splits are painful, messy and are typically private interactions among a few leaders without members being fully aware or participating. He also mentioned that currently, the “children” of God wish for the “parents” to get back together. He said that, “it does not seem realistic at this point, so we all need to move forward, repenting and striving with agape love and respect for one another and the work we are performing for Jesus Christ.”
Then Elliott goes on to say this:
He explained that Jesus desires that God’s children all be one (John 17:20-21), and he explained that while we are not all in a single corporation, at least we all need to be one in God and Jesus Christ by having an agape mindset. Let’s all help each other in striving to do just that, please.
Really? How can they when they all believe things that are at odds with each other's groups? It's not a big COG ecumenical love fest as he thinks.
55 comments:
Gamaliel's Axiom is clearly in play, and they don't even know it!
BB
Don't think we can't see what you cowardly UCG ministers are doing here. You will praise Mr Elliott up one side and own the other, and then come here and stab him in the back.
BB, do you really expect COG folk to even know what that is? If it isn't in a booklet, magazine, or reprint article, they won't know what it is.
The only group more divided than the ACOGs seems to be the orthodox "Christianity." None of these churches have the spirit of God. If they did, there would be no division in the "Christian" church. Christ is NOT divided.
Any time someone with their palm out for money tells you "its a family", run.
If Gamaliel's Axiom were true, this would prove that Islam is God's will for mankind, as it is growing more quickly than any other religion and by the end of this century, maybe even as soon as 2050, will surpass Christianity as the world's predominant religion. Also, Gamaliel's Axiom runs fully counter to the idea of a "Gideon's Army" and the idea that the one true church will remain tiny.
No, I don't, 9:22! That is precisely why I have cited it!!! Although Acts 5:34-39 was taught to us at Ambassador College Bible Class, I would imagine that from about 1995 forward, the era of the splinters, the ACOGs would have ceased acknowledging those verses. They point out some inconvenient realities regarding the Armstrong Movement, which (pun most definitely intended) took a major dump!
The power to get out their half a gospel message was irreparably broken, and one government from the top down, allegedly "God's Government on Earth" became fragmented into impotent little splinters. Spewed from the mouth of God? I think so!
BB
We had a commenter here for a while (they might still be around) who liked to characterize it as the "disUnited Church of Godlessness" and as "ungodly people playing church".
The Churches of Greed don't get it even when it is written. They choose what Herbie sez a verse sez over what the verse sez. They don't know that what the verse sez is not what Herbie sez it sez, and that what Herbie sez it sez is not what the verse sez.
They don't care about the church, just smearing it on here all the time. shameful and deceitful men (and the wife of one of the men). I would not want to be them when they have to stand before God and answer for what they do here.
Turning on President John Elliot now ? Or is this a fake attack? One wonders. Although Elliots phone call to Franks will not go down well with a certain element of 'COGWA haters' within UCG.
Hey BB, I had never heard of Gamaliel's Axiom before, until now. But I'm from down under and we're only just learnt to read and write lol. Had to look it up and found it most interesting. Learning never stops, unless you're stuck in Armstrongism ha ha. Cheers.
Welcome to the wonderful world of Armstrongism, a state of existence in which participants believe they aways win! As a fully accredited Armstrongite, depending on the condition of your church, you have the incredible advantage of citing either Gamaliel or Gideon to prove your church is the one and only! (what is this trip on the G's anyhow???).
Seriously, you can't continue citing Gideon to prove your validity if the small group is not getting the job done! Getting the work done is the Biblical constant. The half a gospel message must go out in power, regardless of the size of your church! What's the street buzz? That's what I wanna know! Who has even heard of you or your little pissant group???
One phenominum I observed when I attended services was that the more Pharisaic the member, the more frequently they quoted the bible and with exaggerated 'conviction'. The same was true for the ministers.
Happy Sabbath Dr. Thiel (if your are reading this).
A Mr. Elliott said, “He mentioned that most of what we all do is done in triplicate, such as with offices, hall rentals, travel, and Feast sites, etc. Mr. Elliott assured everyone that while there is no desire to combine, it seems most members wish we were together. He then compared what has happened in some cases to a divorce in a family….and he explained that while we are not all in a single corporation, at least we all need to be one in God and Jesus Christ by having an agape mindset.”
MY COMMENT – I’m not sure what the motivation is for Mr. Elliott to make these useless statements other than to acknowledge the obvious and communicate that UCG is not exclusively “God’s only Church” as HWA and RWCG use to preach. Nothing will happen as a result. Later in life after preaching exclusivity, HWA had to finally admit the dead Sardis era GOG7D was also God’s Church so I guess UCG is formally acknowledging that there are true Christian’s in the ACOGs even if they might be Laodicean. These seem to be consistent with statements Elliott was quoted as making in a recent Post here on Banned. HWA was not so kind when it came to the Splinters that occurred while he was still alive.
Elliott is saying the obvious that there is no “economies of scale” in the Splinters with everything done in triplicate as inefficient, wasted redundancy. It’s more than triplicate if other ACOGs are included beyond LCG and COGWA. As we have said many times, the ACOGS are low-wattage works. The sum of their parts do not equal the whole. They are having zero impact. Few have ever heard of them.
Elliott also inadvertently admits a truth that we all already know - that Armstrongism (or, at least this branch of Armstrongism) doesn’t listen to its own members! The elite minister assures everyone in the room that there is no desire to combine, but most of the lowly tithe-paying members “wish we were together”. Hmm!
Elliott’s divorce case example falls apart because the “Children” of the R/WCG divorce aren’t really children anymore. At best, they are adults in their early 30s if 1996 is used as the date little Joey Tkach overtly shrunk the Church and went mainstream. They have no experience of the “Glory years” of the R/WCG. Elliott would have to be referring to the middle age children ages 50+ that were old enough to remember HWA alive and remember the Glory Days when the R/WCG movement was at its peak. I am talking 10,000+ members at individual Feast of Tabernacles Festival sites.
It must be very discouraging for the remaining remnant ACOG parent members and their middle aged adult children of the R/WCG to see these low wattage works accomplishing literally nothing, and also remember back when FOT sites used to attract 8,000 - 10,000 members per site and when there were 3 Ambassador College campuses. Today, there is no scale whatsoever as Elliott appears to be pointing out. Today, a large FOT site attracts a few hundred people, and there is no Ambassador College (let alone 3 campuses).
Armstrongism displays what happens to a once successful religious movement with the wrong gospel and the wrong prophetic messages.
Richard
Elliott is saying the obvious that there is no “economies of scale” in the Splinters with everything done in triplicate as inefficient, wasted redundancy.
ACOG ministers are generally not very hard workers. If UCG, COGWA and LCG combined, they wouldn't cut their administrative work by 2/3; they would come very close to tripling the size of their administrative staff (after using the merger as an excuse to lay off a very few out-of-favor ministers and Home Office workers).
Most of what Elliott says is useless. Have you read any of his weekly member letters? It's been a long time since I've seen someone use so many words to say so little.
" Thumbs up " ...
Everybody here knows I'm a rock n roller from way back, and that I use use musical analogies and metaphors. They've always been about life, at least for me. For our generation, it was always the sound track for life, so they loom as powerful. Plus, the Armstrongs always repudiated that genre of music because it was a greater phenomenon than them!
We've all heard stories of "getting the band back together". Members of once hugely popular bands that broke up years ago realize that their fans want to see and hear the music played live one more time, they see the factors and differences that seemed so important when they broke the band up as no longer being insurmountable, and although some of the members have already gone to rock n roll heaven, they hook up with some other pros and put it all back together. I'm thinking of Thin Lizzy and "One Night in Dublin, A Tribute to Phil Lynott". Check out "The Cowboy Song" , it's on You Tube. The Irish, doin' it!
Now, here's the thing. Thin Lizzy was and is a thing! A real thing! But, the most stalwart of the COGlodytes would hold their noses and dismiss them just as quickly as they do the Antenicene Fathers. And this is only one exemplary band, others could certainly be cited. What do they know, that would-be Armstrongite leaders do not? Could it be that these ACOG leaders know deep down that Armstrongism has always been "Milli Vanilli"? A manufactured, and fake band that was exposed, stripped of its awards and lost its wealth and became infamous rather than infamous? No more airplay?
The fact that the R/WCG and its splinters were not and are not the real thing is perfectly illustrated by the fact that they do not, and never will "put the band back together." If God were behind them, wouldn't He be "unhardening" their hearts? Inspiring those with power to shed their differences and bad feelings, and reunite to play the music with power once again? The late HWA and the late GTA used to proclaim, as they begged for our financial resources, that a dying nation, a dying world desperately needed the message they preached! There are many who look around them and conclude that what they see today is exponentially worse than anything unfolded during the time and date stamped heyday of Armstrongism. The fact that Armstrongism was never what it was advertised as being is evident from the fact that the splinters cannot get it back together to get their message out!
BB
7:47, the problem isn't quoting the Bible too much, it's not quoting it enough and applying it.
We're not getting anywhere by muttering our own opinions and paraphrases, rewordings and rephrasings all the time. You see this above where they "assure everyone there's no desire to combine (no desire to combine? How is that reassuring?)" or "it's not realistic (meaning that someone is unfaithful) for us to get back together" or "we can be all one in God and Christ even if we are separately organized". Lots of carnality here.
Meanwhile Christ's prayer is that we be one, and have a desire and will to be one. And, no, you're not one with God or Christ if you are divided from your brethren. Yet you can be one with God wherever you are if you believe and obey Him, but you're not one in Christ if you consciously separate from your brethren.
The elders could do it but, as many have noted, they can't agree on either spiritual or admin matters because of greed, doubts, faithlessness, idolatry, vanity, double-mindedness, distrust, love of money, fear of suffering loss, etc. etc. etc.. Disagreeing itself is a sin (Rom 1:31, covenant-breakers is asunthetos which means disagreeing) They won't tell you that of course because they don't want you to judge them or take away your tithes. But they WILL judge you for YOUR flaws and question YOUR morality and dedication.
It's amazing how all these groups can agree on stuff like the BI doctrine, but they can't agree to join back together. I'm the leader, , no I'm the leader, no i'm the leader, no no no, I AM THE LEADER!
Only a fool would pay heed to Gamaliel's do-nothing "axiom".
I am of Paul. I am of Apollos. Are ye not carnal?
I am of orthodoxy. I am of HWA. I am of Pack. I am not of any of them. I am of Jesus. Are ye not carnal?
And yet, It has been preserved in the Bible, 11:31! As is II Tim. 3:16-17. Don't you think that when God inspired Gamaliel (Paul's early teacher) to say that, He knew that man would not heed, and would try to alter the event or fulfillment, ie case in point,, but God would bring it to pass in spite of whatever Herculian efforts were made to the contrary?
I take your comment just as seriously as I do the comments some folks around here use in an attempt to break Deuteronomy 18:15-22. The fate and future of Armstrongism and the ACOGs has become obvious, just as have the work of their false prophets. Of course you could tune into the latest from Parousia-forecaster David C. Pack! That is your right and privilege.
Yes! Current ACOG status tracks well with what God did to the Tower of Babel construction project, 11:09. N'est ce pas?
11:31, like so many things in Scripture, Gamaliel's advice is for the church even though his advice to the council was to do nothing but "beat them up". (5:40) His so-called bad advice actually prevented the apostles from being slain. (v33) Which is worse? Getting beat up or dying?
How is this axiom applicable? With all the break-ups, divorces and separations (apostasia; 2 Thess 2:3) in the church, we will see whose "work" will endure and not be overthrown. (v39) If it really is of God, as they claim it to be, the fire of tribulation will reveal it, meaning "let's see where you stand in that day when a crisis comes instead of defecting like a coward for safety or money". We saw some of the results during covid when BOTH government and ministry kept us away from the house of God.
I've said it before, church. Don't think the people who are with you now will be the ones who'll stand with you tomorrow, next year or the end. You saw what happened in the UCG/COGWA split. Everyone drew on his own independent opinion, and Satan took a third of UCG's elders with his tail for its sins (Rev 12:4), knowing full well that you would argue among yourselves until you were blue in the face, and then act like reprobates.
Take it from experience. My own pastor who baptized me betrayed me, the one who anointed me for healing turned me in, and the church I supported put their hand in with wickedness to be a damaging witness. (Ex 23:1)
For the Scripture must be fulfilled which says, "He who ate bread with me has lifted up his heel toward (eis, Jn 13:18) me", and "They hated me for no reason" (chinnam, Ps 69:4), and "They spoke lies about me at the table" (Dan 11:27), and "My loved ones shot (ramah) at me" (Lam 1:19), and "It was not an enemy who reproached me... but it was... my guide and acquaintance (doing the slavish corporate dirty work) with whom we had sweet consultations and walked in the church together." (Ps 55:12-14) Take heed, elders, David calls for death in the next verse if you don't repent. (v15)
No room for the righteous in the church today -- you have to be a bit seedy, hypocritical, worldly-wise, irrational, two-faced, carnally-minded, a secular humanist, a man-pleaser, an obsequious lackey, a bootlicker, a toady, a sycophant, a hireling valet, a vassal of men, willing to drop your morals and memory of good works when the idol of the corporate logo comes along for you to choose between money, reputation, corporate status and employment over faithfulness to Christ.
I agree with the ACOGs teaching that the church splintering and becoming toothless on Herb's death is a type of what's about to befall America. It's about to become third world.
Comment was made stating: "...Again, we are 30 years down the road and the strategic plan still hasn't been figured out. Never mind that, though; it is important to go and visit other COG groups and strive for agape love..."
******
And what about feeding the flock something besides spiritual milk and junk food? Where's the beef? Where's the meat?
Weren't these fleeing hirelings from the former WCG supposed to "feed the flock," instead of feeding themSELVES, guaranteeing themSELVES a paycheck, and a nice retirement for themSELVES? What did the chief Apostle say?
"Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight [thereof], not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;" 1 Peter 5:2
What is the major concern of these hirelings? God or mammon/lucre?
Why does John Elliott and the United Ass. want to join with other hirelings from other organizations, especially if they have nothing to do with God's Church? United admits that they are an Association, and they are.
This is 30 years later, and we're all seeing lots of factions in existence! What's that? Let Victor Kubik remind us of something a minister sent to him regarding the creation of their Association.
Following is the memo sent to Victor Kubik by a minister, who had some unusual insight, with some concerns and fears, regarding our hopes for Indianapolis. It was read by Vic Kubik on May 2, 1995, the last day of the Indianapolis Conference, to all attending (included about 150 “elders,” mates, “etc.”).
******
CAN IT EVER BE? That cohesive, Christ-led entity that we all want so dearly? Or does Indy seal our fate to factions and factions? The hopes are high, the stakes are critical. Indy will be either a dawning of a New World Tomorrow, or the proof of our folly.
PIE IN THE SKY is what the detractors say. Some of them are us, you know. Our “leaders” have already laid foundations and are even laying superstructure. The meek words of just a few weeks ago… “We’ve just started this in case it’s of any help, but we’ll gladly dissolve it” are seemingly replaced with corporate structure lauding the wisdom of “follow me.” Has “unity” already slipped to a cliché, a buzzword of egotists? I’ve seen that once people invest time, money and gain supporters they “have God’s blessing.” After all, they prayed about it.
Dissolution of their structure for a greater cause becomes too great a defeat. The show must go on.
WHAT IS INDY? It’s a chance for a ground up, New Testament organized body of believers.
WHAT WILL INDY BE? I know what you and I want it to be. But do you know what many see it as? Separate leaders of several pre-formed groups pushing their system at each other, followed by the winner selling it to the ministry. The ministry is invited to view the outcome and cast in their lot, depending on who "wins" and if they like the smell of it.
WHO LOOSES IF INDY FALTERS? The churches back home. The little flocks who are staking their faith in Indy. The loyal pastors who have forfeited everything to wait on Christ and to come learn his will for their next step. I hope He’s there. He resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.
Just some concerns and fears…I don’t know what it WILL be, I know what it MIGHT be and what it CAN be. I’ll be there in support. Be careful who gets control. Make sure it’s God.
******
To be continued…
John
Continuing…
Is that minister, who had concerns and fears, still supporting that Ass.? I don't know. Where's David Hulme? He is no longer in "control," whatever that means. Victor Kubik? McCullough?...Shabi? And Elliott?
Decades ago, it seemed that many of the scattered sheep, the brethren, desired to part of one organization headed up by one servant led by Jesus Christ. It appears that it was the fleeing hirelings, who abandoned the WCG members, ran hard and fast to form their own individual organizations, groups, associations, etc., steal one another's sheep, and not share with any other hirelings who fled, leaving their Pasadena ministerial credentials behind...each wanted to take control? Be in charge? Even re-credential themselves/others!
If so, where was Jesus Christ, and Jesus' God, Jesus' Father, in all of that, which appeared to be one mess after another?
And to think there are still hirelings out there setting dates for the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ?
It is as if these hirelings have no idea about Jesus' 2nd coming to earth that only lasted about 40 days...as if that period of time were insignificant in Jesus' life. The Father had more knowledge, understanding and wisdom that He wanted Jesus to pass on to His disciples, but who cares?
How many of these hirelings have told us that we could use God’s Spirit? Agape love is a fruit of God’s Spirit, which does not come from SELF. It comes from God, but in accordance with God’s Will to be done.
Are these organizations demonstrating their lukewarmness, their confusion, and still striving to figure why they each still exist separately from one another?
Jesus Christ prophesied of His good shepherd role, among uncaring hirelings:
John 10:12 “But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.”
The United Ass. virtually from day one experienced split (another word for faction) after split after split, and they still can't come up with a strategic plan that makes any sense for about 30 years.
Did Indy, via a bunch of uncaring hirelings, actually seal their fate to "...factions and factions?..."
Time will tell....or, has time already told?
John
Byker Bob, aka BB, Friday, December 19, 2025 at 10:45:02 AM PST, wrote:
No, I don't, 9:22! That is precisely why I have cited it!!! Although Acts 5:34-39 was taught to us at Ambassador College Bible Class, I would imagine that from about 1995 forward, the era of the splinters, the ACOGs would have ceased acknowledging those verses. They point out some inconvenient realities regarding the Armstrong Movement, which (pun most definitely intended) took a major dump!
The power to get out their half a gospel message was irreparably broken, and one government from the top down, allegedly "God's Government on Earth" became fragmented into impotent little splinters. Spewed from the mouth of God? I think so!
******
To supplement what you wrote BB, Christians are supposed to have Christ in them, and Jesus Christ gave us similar advice to what Gamaliel shared in Acts 5:34-39. Jesus had said something that apparently offended the Pharisees, and perhaps even some of the disciples. Then Jesus responded to them with the following answer:
John 15:13 "But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."
Has the United Ass., an association, created in May 1995, been planted by Jesus' God, Jesus' Father, some approximately 30 years ago, or will it continue to be scattered and brought to naught?
Time will tell...
John
These groups splintered along character rather than doctrinal lines. My observation was that Cain versus Abel behaviours was common in the old WCG.
1:27. 'I am of Tkach and if you are not, you are my eternal enemy' this blogs moto.
John, excellent comment! I think the verdict is in. Time has already told!
I think it is good to periodically remind people of the memo to Kubik. My brother was a local church elder in WCG and attended the UCG Indianapolis organization meeting. He left Armstrongism shortly thereafter.
Richard
Unfortunately or fortunately depending on opinion, UCG's President Elliot reaching out to other COG groups will be seen by some, as UCG being in serious trouble.
Well, 12/19 9:20 I believe I've figured out why you feel as you do about this site. For the vast majority of COG members, the ministers are the smartest people they know. If the ministers were not born that way, the belief is that they became that way by virtue of the Holy Spirit. This is based on the belief that the Holy Spirit has anything to do with Armstrongism in the first place, but we'll let that track for the sake of argumentation.
So, you get up in the morning and, as you drink your morning coffee, you read the latest on Banned. You stand amazed at the brilliant writing and the depth of the ideas which are presented, even though these counter Armstrongism, and you say to yourself, "That has to be some of the ministers! Who else could possibly write like that??? What a damnable thing that they would turn and use their talent to destroy God's church!"
You must surely realize that dissent was NEVER allowed in Armstrongism. Basic COG Church Governance 101! Many of the precepts taught in Armstrongism are easily refuted and debunked, not only by logic, and through deeper education, but also by the Bible itself.. This means that, throughout the years, there were always some members who had to conceal or suppress their intelligence in the name of unity. Go along to get along.
Reality? I believe you actually know this! But you also know that in the dissident (enlightened) community, the worst epithet you could hurl at us is "Armstrongite Minister". All things considered, that is quite insulting.
So now, you have been exposed. Nonetheless, it is in your programming to continue your insults. Just so we don't become bored, would you please dig deeper, and develop a more impressive variety of insults for us? Thanks in advance!
John, you asked if UCG was planted by God? That's really not the question to ask. UCG was a flight to safety, a rendezvous point, for the members fleeing from apostasy in WCG -- which WAS a planting of God. I shake my head at this because UCG was supposed to be a place for us to restore our doctrines and more but instead it turned out to be an evidentiary manifestation of our general unfaithfulness, unrighteousness, hypocrisy and lukewarmness. If you want to be transparent and aboveboard, then BE transparent and aboveboard and quit finding fault with and judging your brethren (or, as in the case of the elders, quit your greedy and covetous desires for power and control of the church's material resources)! We are supposed to serve Christ's interests and not "special interest groups" (i.e. the lone complainer) or "internal monetary cravings" (love of money) or "vanity trips" (to look good) or "selfish ambitions" (to be first).
The ministers are always accusing us of causing division, being self-righteous, having a big mouth, being clamourous or rancorous, causing offences, etc. while their sins of neglect and contention are ignored or explained away. Once they learn to stop playing the hypocrite, show some humility, work toward peace, and remember to let the truth speak (instead of shutting it up when it hurts someone's sensitivities) we will begin to make some progress before the Lord returns.
9:42, in WCG the split was due to doctrine (anomia, lawlessness; 2 Thess 2:7) but in UCG, I have to agree, it was one brother envying another, involving elders who were caught in Satan's vortex, being caught off guard and unaware of what causes instability and foul affairs to occur (Ja 3:16) because they were so fixated on who offended whom and who sinned against whom and who was neglectful and unrighteous and who wasn't neglectful and unrighteous.
This is what happens when Christ is displeased with the church's sins. He lets us shoot at one another, and be shot in the crossfire, punishing us for our sins by stirring up a controversy in order to vomit us out of His mouth (Rev 3:16), while we point fingers and fight in vain in order to find out who is at fault. Then, once they get their brand-spanking new home offices, budgets, name tags, wages and pensions in place, "there are no hard feelings", "everyone is good", "we're finally at peace", "just an amicable parting of ways", "no rancour involved", "perfectly clean" -- until they deal with lay members' grievances.
I don't believe there was any planting or any apostasy. Had their been either, one of the emerging entities would have been blessed as part of the outcome. The mothership wasn't the only shrinking violet! None were blessed, and there is nobody left with the power to get out the Armstrongian warning. God is either working through one of the non-Armstrong related church organizations, or one is yet to emerge. It sure as hell can't be the Christian Nationalists!
CHURCH HISTORY: Growth and Decline
Herbert W. Armstrong claimed that his Radio/Worldwide Church of God grew at an average annual rate of about 30% each year for 35 years after its start in 1933 Then, in the 1970s, while HWA was away (flying around the world to meet with many heads of state) and his son Garner Ted was at headquarters and at play (with women other than his own wife), the WCG stopped growing. After HWA returned from his travels and openly kicked his son GTA out of the WCG in 1978, the WCG began to grow again. Within a few years of HWA's death in January 1986, the WCG peaked with about 150,000 people attending the WCG's Feast of Tabernacles.
HWA's successor, the apostate Joseph W. Tkach, Sr., destroyed the WCG with his Great Apostasy of January 1995 when he stopped denying his agenda and openly threw out of the WCG virtually everything that HWA had taught, and openly wrote up what he was doing in the WCG's Worldwide News newspaper. The WCG quickly declined and splintered. JWT, Sr. then developed 100 spots of cancer on his bones and died exactly 40 weeks after first giving his sermon in December 1994 doing away with the weekly Sabbath.
JWT, Sr.'s son, the apostate Joseph Tkach, Jr., then took over the WCG and changed the name of what was left of it to Grace Communion International, a Sunday-keeping church.
In his old age, HWA had made it appear to be so easy to grow the church that many other people thought that they could do it too, and even better than HWA had done. However, for all of the apostate's talk about how foolish and wasteful HWA had been in the past, and how wise and thrifty they were now, the WCG simply stopped growing under them, and then went into decline, and then into collapse in 1995.
Many splinter groups from the WCG formed, supposedly to hold on to the truth as taught by HWA, but mainly to collect tithes and offerings and power for the leaders of them and their buddies, as well as to introduce all sorts of pet heresies of these heretics. The splinter groups got their members from the wreckage of what had been the WCG, but cannot seem to attract any new people. The numerous splinter groups thought that they were very wise and increased with “new revelation” and had need of nothing. However, as of 2025, not even one of the splinter groups is currently even one-tenth of the size of the WCG at its peak, and not even one of them seems to be able to grow in size.
The HWAcaca failed in 1975. End of story. No second chance for false prophets! Actually, that was not even HWA's first barrage of false prophecy. WWII was supposed to culminate in Armageddon. Which is why die hard articles were published in the church magus-zines stating that Hitler was still alive in South America!
You are in a cult. Cults are deadly.
Anon, Saturday, December 20, 2025 at 9:42:46 PM PST, wrote:
These groups splintered along character rather than doctrinal lines. My observation was that Cain versus Abel behaviours was common in the old WCG.
******
Your observation, regarding behaviors of Cain and Abel, is one of flesh wrestling flesh, especially since there was a "third party" involved.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]." Eph 6:12
Abel was murdered. Was sin involved? Yes.
"He that committeth sin is of the devil;..." I John 3:8
So, did Cain, solely, murder his brother Abel, or was a third party involved?
"Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother..." I John 3:12
We know that that third party: "...the devil sinneth from the beginning..." I John 3:8
So, was Abel and his behavior impacted solely by the behavior of his brother Cain, or did Cain have a third party impact Cain's behavior, leading to the murder of Abel?
Will Cain and Abel eventually be resurrected and come to understand the tribulation that the god of this present evil world caused in their lives?
Jesus Christ was well aware of that "third party. So, similarly, is it possible that the splintered groups have all been impacted by that third party (e.g. John 10:1, 8, 10, 12-13; Matthew 23:33, 35-36)?
Time will tell...
John
"He (Christ) lets us shoot at one another, and be shot in the crossfire, punishing us for our sins by stirring up a controversy in order to vomit us out of His mouth."
Christ is not a micro manager of people's lives. Rather he is a God of self responsibility, honoring that people are made in his mental image. God the Father does not micromanage Christ, neither does Christ try to micro manage his Father.
What you are describing is the church culture, a culture that has rejected the narrow gate and has embraced school yard bully morality instead.
This ongoing tyranny has twisted most members sense of normalcy, such that they can't even comprehend freedom from others.
Which is why I keep thanking God for directing me to be a stay at home independent Christian.
Not 9:20 but is your comment a parody ? Comedy comment surely ?!! For it is an own goal as well as being a great parody comedy moment. They do happen on this blog. Unbelievably hilarious.
You actually wrote: "For the vast majority of COG members, the ministers are the smartest people they know." Are you for real? Do you seriously believe that line?!! Did A.C teach you that ? Do you swagger through life thinking the peasants (members) think that?
Well they don't, nor really ever did.
I have always thought 'How the ministry perceive themselves and how the members really perceive them, never the twain shall meet."
And what 9:20 wrote is true.
Anon, Sunday, December 21, 2025 at 11:37:16 AM PST, wrote:
"John, you asked if UCG was planted by God? That's really not the question to ask. UCG was a flight to safety, a rendezvous point, for the members fleeing from apostasy in WCG -- which WAS a planting of God. I shake my head at this because UCG was supposed to be a place for us to restore our doctrines and more but instead it turned out to be an evidentiary manifestation of our general unfaithfulness, unrighteousness, hypocrisy and lukewarmness. If you want to be transparent and aboveboard, then BE transparent and aboveboard and quit finding fault with and judging your brethren (or, as in the case of the elders, quit your greedy and covetous desires for power and control of the church's material resources)! We are supposed to serve Christ's interests and not "special interest groups" (i.e. the lone complainer) or "internal monetary cravings" (love of money) or "vanity trips" (to look good) or "selfish ambitions" (to be first).
The ministers are always accusing us of causing division, being self-righteous, having a big mouth, being clamourous or rancorous, causing offences, etc. while their sins of neglect and contention are ignored or explained away. Once they learn to stop playing the hypocrite, show some humility, work toward peace, and remember to let the truth speak (instead of shutting it up when it hurts someone's sensitivities) we will begin to make some progress before the Lord returns..."
******
Anon, what I actually asked was: "...Has the United Ass., an association, created in May 1995, been planted by Jesus' God, Jesus' Father, some approximately 30 years ago, or will it continue to be scattered and brought to naught?
Time will tell..."
And, the United Ass. has not been brought to naught, but again, time will tell...
You said that I should: :"...quit finding fault with and judging your brethren..."
My bottom line answer remains as follows:
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]." Eph 6:12; I John 3:8; 2 Tim 2:26, Eph 2:2, etc.
But, and, time will tell...
John
think about what Jesus said here:
“Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house.”
Matthew 12:29 ESV
Is Satan stronger than Jesus? If WCG were in the fact the “one true church” it would in fact still be standing.
The body of Christ, however, continues to grow. The true gospel, not the Armstrongite gospel, is growing and changing lives all over the world.
Armstrong was a deceiver and all that your wrote above is continuing the deception. Wake up!
Lake of Fire Church of God, aka Richard Sunday, December 21, 2025 at 6:36:46 AM PST commented saying:
John, excellent comment! I think the verdict is in. Time has already told!
I think it is good to periodically remind people of the memo to Kubik. My brother was a local church elder in WCG and attended the UCG Indianapolis organization meeting. He left Armstrongism shortly thereafter.
******
Thanks for your comment. I still am unaware of which elder wrote that memo, but I have treasured it for a long time now, although I left the United Association about 3 years after its creation.
I don't know your brother, but I hope all is going well with him. All of us may be where we need to be, but time will tell.
This I know. The gospel was preached to Abraham.
"And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed." Galatians 3:8
That blessing is for all nations, all human beings; however, to Abram the word "families" was used in the AKJV:
"And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." Gen 12:3
That includes us, your brother, all human beings. We're learning to hate evil, not hate flesh and blood, and we need to go through whatever tribulation comes our way, but God will eventually work it all out for good.
We all do live in an evil day, but it won't last forever:
"The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4
May you and your brother remain encouraged, as...
Time will tell...
John
There was an element of intentional comedy in there, yeah. Glad you enjoyed it. You see, I think Armstrongism and Armstrongites are very funny to start with. But then again, I used to listen to Rush Limbaugh because his whole shtick was comedy. We're not laughing today because the wrong people took him seriously, but I digress!
All this endless arguing over points of view( mainly by bored vain baby boomers) to and fro throughout the last 40 or more years, over Worldwide church history and scandal, will all amount to absolutely nothing once the Temple in Jerusalem is built.
It will change everything every Christian from Prosetants to Catholics to Sabbath Christians to anyone who knows Jesus Christ. Everything changes. Everything.
There is an old saying that a stream can rise no higher than its source. There were any number of exemplary early twentieth century industrialists or magnates whose offspring could not carry the ball following the passing of their father. WCG is just another such example. In the case of the industrialists, often outsiders who had gained experience in other venues perpetuated the corporation, and the companies survived and thrived. HWA always behaved as an American version of an oligarch, shunning such outsiders or outside influence. There would be no Moses-Joshua or Elijah-Elisha transfer in Armstrongism.
Hell, we've been watching for that since the failure of 1975, 1:57!
Remember, Herbie's revised interpretation of the Olivet prophecy was to the effect that the Baby Boomer generation (people born at the time Israel was reestablished as a nation) would not pass until all these things be fulfilled. So many of us are already gone.
Anon, Tuesday, December 23, 2025 at 1:57:20 AM PST, wrote:
All this endless arguing over points of view( mainly by bored vain baby boomers) to and fro throughout the last 40 or more years, over Worldwide church history and scandal, will all amount to absolutely nothing once the Temple in Jerusalem is built.
It will change everything every Christian from Prosetants to Catholics to Sabbath Christians to anyone who knows Jesus Christ. Everything changes. Everything.
******
Which temple do you have in mind? Is there one being built in Jerusalem at this time?
A thought came to my mind: might you be making a hint in regards to a verse that does not even have the word "Jerusalem" in it?
"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." 2 Thess 2:4
What temple are you referring to?
Time will tell...
John
Both 7:59 & 4:40 shockingly don't have a clue what i meant. Even the critics look like they cannot think outside the box. Thoughts and prayers.
And these same type of people expect absolute autocracy on others lives!
Well, you don't have a clue either, 2:47! I don't want to rule over other peoples' lives. Let people of Herbie's ilk do that, just so long as they leave me alone! I'm a simple working man who gets compensated for using his skill set to help others. There's more relaxing and fulfilling things to do than having absolute autocracy, simple pleasures like the enjoyment of milking a cow or playing your guitar.
The church under Herb was never about personal growth but rather about control and having the "right" doctrines. This meant that the church had feet of clay, and the Tkach stress test exposed this.
Herb and his minions believed that cult ploys would grow and maintain the church, and it didn't work.
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