Some Political Questions for U.S. Christians?
Lonnie Hendrix/Miller Jones
Do you believe that the founding documents (e.g. Declaration of Independence, U.S. Constitution) were Divinely inspired? Does that make those documents inerrant and/or the founding fathers infallible?
If so, do you believe that the United States is God's nation? Do you believe that the political system of the United States is the most perfect system of human governance ever created by man?
Do you believe that the United States is a "Christian" nation? If so, does that mean that all other religions should not be tolerated? Should we ensure that any contributions to our system by people of other faiths should not be permitted/tolerated?
Do you believe that the founding fathers were righteous individuals? If so, why did some of them own slaves and/or engage in extramarital affairs? Likewise, do you believe that the United States is/was a righteous nation? If so, how do you explain the way land was taken away from Native Americans? How do you explain the toleration and support of the institution of slavery? How do you explain the exploitation of natural resources, extermination of species, and pollution of our air and waterways?
Do you believe that human political leaders can and/or should be Christians? Do you believe that it is possible or practical for secular leaders to strictly adhere to the teachings of Jesus Christ in the performance of their duties within the current system and/or on the world stage?
Do you believe that God intended for Christians to improve the human political systems of this earth? Do you believe that Christians have a responsibility/duty to impose Christian moral standards on the larger society? If so, which denomination's beliefs should we employ as our standard? Also, does that mean that the rights of some groups of citizens should be denied (like homosexuals, atheists, or adulterers)? Should Christians support the public execution of sinners/criminals? If so, do we have any responsibility to encourage repentance, forgive, or show mercy to such individuals? How would that be managed/administered?
If God truly directs the affairs of humankind and is working out some design/plan, what happens if we support or vote for a candidate whom He didn't choose? Do we bear any responsibility for the failure of policy choices that we help to make? Do we bear any responsibility before God for unintended consequences of the choices we make at the ballot box? How do we maintain a clear conscience before God when we support someone who clearly does not live up to God's standard of behavior? Does the end justify the means?
Do you believe that the United States is a democratic republic? If so, how do you explain the fact that blacks and women were only allowed to participate in the political process in just the last century? How do we justify a minority being able to thwart the will of the majority or impose its beliefs/policies on the majority? How do we justify the practice of gerrymandering or the practice of partisanship?
Why do you think that Jesus said that his Kingdom was NOT of this world? Why do you think that Jesus instructed his disciples to pray that God's Kingdom come to this earth? Why do you believe that he also instructed them to pray for God's will to be done on earth as it currently is in heaven? Does that imply that human leaders are NOT doing God's will? Why did the Apostle Paul instruct the saints to NOT get entangled in civilian affairs? What did he mean by that? Why did John refer to human governance as Babylon and "Beast"? What do you think it meant when he wrote for God's saints to come out of her and NOT participate in her sins?
I'm truly interested in hearing some responses to these questions - especially for those who answered yes to the first few questions! Did any of the above questions prompt you to reconsider your political views or better understand why some Christians choose not to involve themselves in secular politics?
21 comments:
Thanks for the questionnaire Lonnie Hendrix/Millar Jones.
I’m not American but you do raise some interesting questions for us who have a background in Armstrongism. I can’t answer for American citizens but as an outsider what I will say is I’m grateful for those individuals who were guided by their convictions and conscience to get involved in society for its betterment. Like the abolition of slavery, apartheid and segregation, and healthcare for the masses, the vote for women among many. One thinks of Mother Theresa. And many of these fine people were Christian and that guided their decision making.
It’s hard for The ACOGs to distance themselves from politics. They are either looking at the geopolitical landscape focusing on Europe. And they are looking at the national politics with many of them being retirees who religiously watch Fox News. Since their paradigm is America and British descended people are Israel and Germany is Assyria they can’t divorce themselves from the politics of this world. So Armstrongism uses politics for prophecy. Therefore they have a prophecy gospel. Then they tell you not to be political (no voting) but after service they talk about nothing but politics.
However what you will notice in your New Testament, the writers don’t focus their faith on the cares of this world of politics. Only perhaps in Christ’s olivet prophecy does He describe the events to warn those living around 70AD, because the church had to flee. Of course it describes the end of the age as well. But first century Christians were being persecuted unjustly, jailed, martyred and so forth. It was different times.
Tank
Most of the Founding Father's were Mason's which requires belief in some higher being. Also the concept of "Natural Law" (self evident) was being developed. They were building on classic civilisations which is apparent when visiting Washington DC with the Temples containing statues of "Man God's". Of course non of this would have come to pass if Christian Morality had not been the (legal, cultural normative) basis to work from..... Yet Masonry, Democracy or Natural Law does not require Christianity perse as they should be Universal Principles to build a free society on which the God of Genesis requires of us when he PLEADS with us to "choose Life" and have a system of government that requires "a multitude of Councillors".
This God making clear that his preferred mode would be to work on the local level through Judges and Law as building block.
Deborah being an example. (probably a daughter of the most important military leader of the most prestiguous tribe because of its anciennity the commander of the Edomite "Host of the Lord."
All our choices would be subject to time stamped cultural ideas (like slavery or not having women educated so they would appear stupid and not be eligible to cast a vote.... Now being extended to males who increasingly show themselves weak and stupid and woke.
Nck
Founding fathers of America had a faith and the Declaration of Independence makes a number of references to Creator/ God given rights / Supreme being.
This stemmed from their shared faith. But, this does not mean it’s meaningful to see U SA as a nation chosen by God which is the Anglo Israel theory teaching. (Which is erroneous and something Armstrong copied from earlier promoters of the idea)
- the USA became powerful because of its plentiful resources and a promotion of enterprise among its people, with the heritage of a separate legal system and democratic rights where such freedoms were valued .
Perhaps collectively, as people lead lives pleasing to God, it can have implications for the nation giving desirable outcomes. But this is different to an argument of being a chosen nation. I add any individual can turn to God from any race and nation.
America is not a Democratic Republic but rather a constitutional Republic, ie, it's governed according to a charter. The purpose of elections is to choose those who apply the constitution . In fact the founding fathers feared today's democratic republic, viewing it as nothing more than mob rule. Which today's runaway spending at every level of government confirms. And it won't be long before the 36 trillion dollar debt national causes a national crisis. Throughout history, it has always been a minority imposing their political will on the rest of the population. Even in ancient "democratic " Greece, it was only a minority that could vote. This was a survival strategy since most citizens were ignorant and uneducated. Even in Christ's time, only one to two percent of the population could read and write. God has given democratic democracy its hour in the sun and it has failed. Btw, there's a 2001 book called "Democracy: the God that failed".
I don't see any changes or recently emerging differences in most of the people with whom I interact, or have dealings. I'm somewhat mystified because the people they have chosen in the election are in reality so very different from themselves. I believe that members of the general public do not realize what is about to happen when their chosen ones actually begin to do the things they stated that they would do. And I fear that we will be locked into these changes permanently, with our recourses having been taken away.
For the time being, I intend to continue to try to find happiness where I can, and to conduct as good a life as possible. I just don't see conditions returning to the ways to which I was accustomed, and enjoyed having as stable constants. Not during my remaining years, anyway. I found ways of extracting happiness from life during my years of kafkaesque existence in Armstrongism. I just never thought such extraction would need to be a permanent survival skill due to a cult becoming mainstream. And, yet it has.
I'll also continue to love my country, as it always was, and not as an entirely new set of architects are making it to be. I will hold on to those precious memories and past hopes. Maybe, just maybe, if enough of us all do this, eventually the clouds will clear away and the sun will shine through once again.
BB
You’re right about the massive $36 trillion national debt and the effects that will flow from this are massive. Oddly I’ve read where uncle Don ‘s spending plans and taxing plans may worsen - who knows but it’s not being reduced
This country was ordained by God. Just look at the missteps during the Revolution. It's clear that God intervened many times in order for the Union to be established. The founding documents were inspired by God, no doubt. God's principles are throughout them. Liberty, equality before the law, personal responsibility, et.al., are all Godly principles. They are based on the Holy Scriptures, but they are not themselves scripture. The founding fathers said themselves that the written documents are for a moral people. They are of no use to anyone else.
As was stated earlier, man has a way of misusing and abusing every good thing God gives us. No matter how perfect the founding documents are man will find a way to pervert the meaning to suit himself. Man is incapable of governing himself. There is power in governorship and man cannot handle power.
Yes, this country was ordained by God as part of His plan. And yes this country will fall. There is a Kingdom coming, however, and it will last forever.
Anonymous 5:46 wrote, “This country was ordained by God.”
I believe that statement needs to be unpacked. I believe that this country was ordained by God as a haven and protector of the Jews. God made a place of peace for the Jews among the Gentiles of North America. We have not always been good to the Jews but more so than other Gentile nations (Read about the Jewish refugees on the MS St. Louis during WW2).
The United States, as a mixed population of Gentiles, somewhat Babylonish, benefitted greatly from God’s promise to Abraham when he said, “I will bless those who bless you.” That is the only source I can see that has produced the blessings the USA has experienced. The people of south Brazil, Uruguay and Argentina are genetically very similar to the people of the United States. And while they occupy the fairest part of South America, the USA greatly exceeds their material status. So, the receiving of these blessings does not pivot on race. That is a BI fable.
I am not taking exception to the facts that you state. I just believe that the greatness of the USA stems from a different set of causes, rooted in reality and not Hoeh's BI Legendarium.
Scout
"No matter how perfect the founding documents are"
This is perfection?
"Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons."
"The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person."
"No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due."
6:53 I agree with your stance on a "nation chosen by God." Which as a ACOG christian you have to wonder why Peter didn't use the "chosen" term to apply it to a specific geographical nation (I mean he was a jew). Peter uses the "chosen" in regards to God' church as it is correctly applied in the NT.
1 Peter 2:4-5 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
I’ll also continue my love for the country as well. 6:53 You mentioned American resources, and you are correct.
When I look at America being born and raised here. As well as traveling all around the country, there really is no country like it. You mentioned the resources. I mean some countries just have one natural resource, or one crop, or one coast if that, or one river. America has been blessed above all just if you are considering the geography and resources. I mean I have also lived and traveled to other countries and it’s astounding.
We have the two mountain ranges, we were able to make cities in the southwest desert, the five great lakes, the colorado, missouri and mississippi rivers. We have no enemies from the east or west landlocking us. With oceans with beaches along our east and west coast including the gulf. With our port cities we are able to import and export goods without issue. Oil or natural gas found in Texas, copper in Arizona, lithium in California and Kentucky, the coal mines, iron, the gold discovered in California, petroleum. And then the agricultural land with crops that are located in their states with citrus trees in the south east, I mean each state is known for producing a crop, like potatoes in Idaho.
It’s truly a blessing by God it’s just that people mess things up and they cannot love their neighbor as themselves. Mankind even in this so-called Christian nation hasn’t been able to do it. What happened to the native americans and the blacks historically in this nation is not a blessing. There was enough to share and there still is.
And I am curious Anon 5:46, Armstrongism enjoys the BI doctrine, but hardly ever mention the founding documents of Britain or Britain’s founding fathers (of which many descend from Germany). Those American patriots or rebels as they were called in the 1700’s were rebelling against the principle in Romans 13:1-2 “subject to the governing authorities.” I mean now that Britain continues to decline shouldn’t the ACOG doctrine be called American Israel, and not British Israel.
I had the pleasure of watching that HBO series special on John Adams, and it was great. Paul Giamatti does a great job. Many of them had lineages from Britain but they were tired of their rule and the king. They needed to develop a document and a government system that was a major improvement to that of which they came out of. And they did.
However developing a document must be backed on applying it properly. They wrote a document that was morally above themselves especially with the “All men are created equal.” They couldn’t apply it to the others. Therefore a 13th and 14th amendment had to be made after a civil war because you know. See when God inspires someone like Paul or Peter or John and they write letters (documents), those documents are inspired by God and then they are backed up with the proper behavior or response from the men who wrote those letters (because they have God’s spirit). No one has to create amendments to their letters or epistles because they are truly inspired. I focus on how men are treated more than a document or word (1 John 3:18).
Tank
"That all men are created equal" was remarkable for its time. About half the colonies at the time allowed slavery, and the other half didn't think it particularly wrong. In some states it was against the law to free slaves, and in others they could only be freed on a person's deathbed. Not only that, freed slaves were often kidnapped into slavery. Since they weren't legally owned by anyone, and viewed as personal property, they were typically mistreated. So many freed slaves preferred to be legally owned by somebody. The accusation that the Founding Fathers were hypocrites for owning slaves is over simplistic. There's YouTubes videos on this.
This is an example of the problem of viewing previous generations through 21st century politically correct eyes. Likewise, I don't think the Founding Fathers generation would be accepting of today's gay marriages.
"That all men are created equal" was partly influenced of distancing themselves from the feudal system rampant in Europe. Again we can go back and look at any nations history and critique it. Jesus Christ did this when addressing Jerusalem past failures Matthew 23:37, because He was the Lord back then.
So you're probably right about the founders documents, that they wouldn't agree with the whole gay marriage and it would never make it into law. However when regarding the sex sins, today we wouldn't approve of many of the slave masters having sex and procreating with their slaves while still married such as T. Jefferson.
The problem of humanity is looking back in history from a modern political lens rather than a biblical perspective. Four score and seven years ago.....
Tank
You dissenters ignore the fact that the point was to "form a more perfect union". There was room to grow and they knew it and allowed for it. Finding some imperfection in the original documents does not negate the whole thing. And of course you will latch onto "slavery", which shows you have no argument that will stand up.
Using today's morality to judge people of the past will come back to bite you because you will be condemned by those in the future for positions that are considered normal today. So get off your high horse.
Oh yeah, and while homosexuality has been around for a long long time, it has always been condemned (as God instructed) up until recent times. It is a cancer on society and is a leading cause of the demise of the world in general, and the USA in particular.
6:11 "Using today's morality to judge people of the past"
LOL That's like telling Christ not to mention anything about the persecution of the prophets of old to the jews of His day (Matthew 5:12, Luke 11:47), because His present day morality is somehow different than back in the day.
Morality or God's Law or what the commentators say the "moral law" doesn't change from generation to generation. It''s the same, just as homosexuality was wrong back then, its wrong today. Just like chattel slavery.
I'm not the one who held on to slavery, it was the the ones in the 1860's that held on to it, and it bit them in the rear, as they were soon thrusted into a civil war due to states rights (slavery), where eventually over 600K died. Don't worry about it, I just don't consider the constitution inspired by God, it's just my opinion.
"LOL That's like telling Christ not to mention anything about the persecution of the prophets of old to the jews of His day (Matthew 5:12, Luke 11:47), because His present day morality is somehow different than back in the day."
Not at all. God's morality never changes. Man's is constantly changing. Things you do today and are quite confident about will be condemned by the "enlightened" people of the future with their new morality.
Funny thing is, you are both outside God's guidelines.
Correct God's morality never changes. Both? Who is both? You're analysis is off because your focus is on this "new morality" of the people of the future, instead of just focusing on the morality that comes from God. We are talking about the same country here. Not two different cultures or countries. I could see what you are saying if we were talking about an Eastern country in the world from the 1800's and comparing it to today in the West. We are talking about 1 country in America , with the same educational system, government, religion and economic system. God focuses his attention on those people who follow His morality down through time. Whatever is acceptable to God two thousand years ago is acceptable now. I am not sure about you, but you sound like you're tying to make an excuse for man's morality down through time. Murder is murder, adultery is adultery, stealing is stealing and lying is lying no matter what changes with man's morality. God doesn't change.
https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2024/12/are-you-paying-lip-service-to-god.html
Many Christians know how to recite the Ten Commandments or other commandments from Torah (the scribes and Pharisees could do the same). Unfortunately, too many of them are unable to discern how the Two Great Commandments apply to any and all times/people/situations/behaviors. This is what it means to have God's Law written on your heart.
To Jones & Hendrix
"Unfortunately, too many of them are unable to discern how the Two Great Commandments apply to any and all times/people/situations/behaviors. This is what it means to have God's Law written on your heart."
Amen brother! All times, people and situations. You can't say, "since I was born in today in this modern era, I can't judge the previous areas. And pick out what they did wrong." I mean Armstrongism does this with their belief in the church eras, in how this church era messed up here and there. But when it comes to American history, oh no you can't critique it for some reason.
Tank
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