Christianity and politics. (Fair Use)
Politics and Christianity
Is the Southern Border a Test of Our Christianity?
By Scout
“ONE BEGOTTEN OF GOD TAKES NO PART IN THIS WORLD'S POLITICS!” – Herbert W. Armstrong, Worldwide News, 1980
I remember when political realism caught up with the Worldwide Church of God (WCG). For some of us, it landed like a hot potato – to be handled cautiously and gingerly. I do not remember the facts of the case as much as I remember the philosophical and theological arguments. A member of the WCG was going to run for mayor in Big Sandy, Texas. At least, this is what I recall now decades later. To the WCG lay membership back in those days, worldly political involvement was anathema.
I discussed this growing issue with one of my buddies who worked at AC. I recall that he was ambivalent but knew one of the principal arguments in support of this new political realism. He said, “If you lived in a city where most of the population was in the WCG, wouldn’t you want the city government to be run by a WCG member?” While there is a practicality to this view, it does not comport with the quotation from Hebert W. Armstrong above. Herbert W. Armstrong was fully in opposition to WCG members participating in politics. So much so, that in the quote above, he is unequivocally denying the conversion of anyone who does. But what are the ramifications?
The Dilemma of Politics for Christianity
A case in point. Many White Evangelicals around the country are influenced by something called White Christian Nationalism (WCN). Sociologist Samuel L. Perry defined it this way, “Adherents believe in the idea that America was founded by Christians who modeled its laws and institutions after Protestant ideals with a mission to spread the religion and those ideals in the face of threats from non-whites, non-Christians, and immigrants.”
This creates a problem, for instance concerning the issue of immigration. This is roughly what has happened. The USA has a great appetite for illegal drugs. US citizens buy tons of product from Central and South American countries. This destabilizes their governments and economies and funds the power of the cartels. The result is that people flee these countries to come to the USA where there is an economy they can participate in up to a certain level – that level being lower class but much better than what is available in their devastated homeland. They want their kids to eat regularly and go to school – like most economic immigrants. The USA is a full participant in this cycle.
The conundrum for those American citizens who claim to follow Jesus, but are influenced by WCN thinking, is that some of the people sleeping on the ground at the southern border are also Christians. I have seen church services at the border being conducted on TV. And it only makes sense that some Christians would be caught up in this engine of destruction. Christians are everywhere – they salt the earth. There are missionary groups that are trying to help these Christians on the border. But they are the traditional groups and I really do not see any WCN involvement. The WCN people are mostly Trump supporters and want to see the door closed in the faces of, in some cases, other Christians. Hence, the political involvement of the WCN not only trumps Christianity, it vacates its force and role. It is no longer about Jesus’ commandment to love your neighbor but about a political opposition to immigration for secular reasons.
Let me hasten to add that I do not do anything directly to help the border Christians and non-Christians - people in crisis. My resources are absorbed elsewhere. I do see Christian groups, judging from the internet, who are helping. And I know of some Armstrongists who have talked up the idea of charity. I know little about what actually gets done.
Summary Argument
Worldly politics has resulted in Christians with a hard heart opposing other Christians in need. That is the sad dilemma whether HWA saw this specific issue of immigration or not. Watch this space. If there are rebuttals from WCN-influenced Armstrongists the chances are high that the rebuttals will be political and not theological. I am not sure there is a theological rebuttal to taking care of your brothers. An example of a political rebuttal is to say, “We just want these people to come into the country legally.” That doesn’t give anyone a plate of food. That doesn’t acknowledge that American drug consumers role in destroying homelands. I believe HWA was right about politics. I wonder how many of his followers adhere to that idea?
36 comments:
Well I’ve even heard that some illegals have come across the border and have even joined a splinter group such as LCG. Don’t they want more members. Wonder what happens if they get deported?
On the other hand I remember some ministers even relate illegals present a problem religiously because they are mainly Catholic from sough and Central America who would eventually align themselves with the Beast.
Give an illegal invader a meal and you feed him for a day.
Deport an illegal invader and you never have to feed him again.
Anon 5:52:15 PM PST
That’s news to me. Joined a splinter group, that’s desperation or a cunning manoeuvre to manipulate the authorities lol.
‘They are mainly catholic from south and Central America who will eventually align themselves with the Beast’ ………says who?
I remember when folks said because JFK was a catholic then the USA would fall. Yeah right. Oh yes Joe (Brandon) Biden is catholic, but that means stuff all.
Common sense tells me to secure the borders, not rocket science is it lol. Even Obama and Hillary Clinton came out in support of deportation and said as much, and that’s on record. Peace.
World War II was unusual in that predominantly Cristian nations fought other predominantly Christian nations, each believing that God was on their side. The North and the South each believed that God was on their side during the American Civil War. War, amongst several other types of mass activities, seems to be a suspension of basic Christian values.
There is not a heck of a lot of Christian stuff going on at the border on the part of either side. I'm expecting drones and mines to play a part in our border policies in the near future, most likely endorsed by professing Christians. It won't be long til people feel totally justified in doing that.
BB
"will eventually align themselves with the Beast" Meredith
To extend Christian charity at the border is a nice principle.
It gets very murky however when you ask questions about the extent will you do this.
An answer likely is not going to be forthcoming or be meaningful.
What if one admits millions on grounds of charity. They can’t check backgrounds.; and a consequence has been as we’ve seen people living their entire lives on welfare and crime rates out of hand.
There’s no easy answer and the Christian charity principle goes only so far then completely breaks down
World War II was unusual in that predominantly Cristian nations fought other predominantly Christian nations, each believing that God was on their side.
Japan was not a predominantly Christian nation during WWII. Neither was Germany, at least among the Nazi leaders who had either abandoned Christianity in favor of old German paganism, or had created a racialized false Christianity that was even less Christian than Armstrongism.
Maybe Byker is thinking of World War I, which truly was a war between the Christian peoples of different European nations?
Joseph and Daniel were heavily involved in the government of the day. To a lesser degree so was Esther!
Most of the comments are too far down-stream. Only the border is targeted as if it were the proximate cause of all the trouble. This is because the people of the USA don’t want to look at the cause. So, let me state it plainly. Those people, including some Christians, are on the border waiting to get in because of the inordinate demand by millions of Americans for illegal drugs. The USA created the problem and does not want to pay for the consequences. Their savior is the White Nationalist MAGA Party. The MAGAs will close off the border. That way Americans can have their drugs and not have to pay some of the woeful penalties. And drug demand is not generated by just the American lower class but also the upper and middle class. It is pervasive. In the USA everybody either has a dog in this hunt or knows someone who does. And then they hypocritically clutch their pearls over the “border crisis.”
Immigration from Central and South America is a by-product of the American drug culture. Many of the people who are the strongest advocates of closing the border spend their lives in a stupor caused by consuming Hill Billy Heroin. They do not want to admit that their dollars flow to the drug cartels. And that the cartels make life unbearable for people who just want to live a decent life.
I am not advocating open borders. I am advocating that we own up to the cause and treat it. We will not make headway on this problem until we no longer focus solely on immigrants but we begin to see that the archetypical frat boys and sorority girls getting high are just as much to blame. In the meantime, the USA and its churches, including the Armstrongist churches, need to recognize that they owe the immigrants something. Its not charity. Its reparations.
Scout
WWI does provide a better example, but the greater point is the fact that there have been numerous wars in which Christian people are fighting on both sides. There was certainly controversy surrounding the Pope's role during WW-II. Italy is a Catholic nation, and Catholicism was big in the USA. Most of the people in Britain were Church of England, which is kind of "dishwater" Catholic. Many Christians in France at that time, and many of the soldiers in the German army were Christian. Russian communism suppressed Christianity, but never succeeded in stamping out the Russian Orthodox Church. The Japanese were largely Buddhist.
BB
“Politics and Christianity: Is the Southern Border a Test of Our Christianity?”
Yes, I suppose it is another test. Ignorant, wishy-washy, fake “christians” will be demon-inspired to wish for the USA to be invaded, conquered, and replaced by hostile foreigners.
Men like King David and King Solomon ruled over the ancient nation of Israel.
Today, President-elect Donald Trump is heavily involved in ruling over the modern Israelite nation of the USA, which was descended mainly from Joseph's son Manasseh.
Donald Trump explained some of his ideas in his softcover book called GREAT AGAIN: How to Fix Our Crippled America (copyright 2015). Chapter 3 is called “Immigration: Good Walls Make Good Neighbors.” It mentions how in 1980 Cuba's leader Fidel Castro outwitted the USA's leader Jimmy Carter by emptying out the prisons and insane asylums and sending his biggest problems to the USA. Other countries took note of this and decided to do the same.
Venezuelan Gangs now invading towns, forming cartels, and doing extortion. No Thanks!
Thats a good point, and some of them were involved in the governments of other nations.
Hi Scout,
It could even go as far back as the Iran-Contra Affair, but that was a different drug and during the Reagan admin. America had over two centuries to build a wall or border, but they decide not to. I heard that Trump wanted to have our military be involved against the cartels. At least he's talking to Mexico. I agree with you on America created the problem. But like Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. America creates a problem and then just wipes their hands of the matter. One day...
6.43, yeah sure Scout, blame the victims. Gaslight Americans into believing that they are the problem, the illegals are forced to abuse them, and that Americans are the real perpetrators. This is narcissistic abuse 101.
Scout,
This is an excellent post. Your reasoning is unassailable, and your analysis is well-articulated. American demand for illegal drugs has literally ruined Central and South American nations. Governments serve the interests of the cartels, not the interests of their citizens. The violence and black-market economies that have been generated as a consequence of all of this has literally caused people with little resources or control to flee for their lives! Walls, landmines, and machine guns may hamper the flow of immigrants into this country, but only eliminating the U.S. demand for drugs will eliminate most of it. Generally speaking, folks only want to leave the land of their birth and ancestry when they are in severe distress.
I also agree with you that Christian involvement in the human-inspired governments/political systems of this world inevitably leads to moral compromise, divided loyalties, state idolatry, unintended consequences, and philosophical/spiritual conundrums that are often impervious to resolution. Scripture is very clear that we are supposed to be citizens of God's Kingdom first and foremost, and that ALL human governments (including that of the United States) follow the Babylonian model, will fail, and are to be replaced someday with the Kingdom of God - which will implement God's will being done on this earth (the clear implication being that that is NOT currently the case).
As for the commentator who pointed out that Joseph, Daniel and Esther participated in secular Gentile governments, I would remind him/her that ALL of those individuals were placed in those positions by God's intervention for the express purpose of preserving the people of the Old Covenant. In other words, they did NOT wander into secular politics on their own initiative or agenda!
Anon 7:27:02 AM PST
‘Today, President elect Donald Trump is heavily involved in ruling over the modern Israelite nation of the USA, which was mainly descended from Joseph’s son Manasseh’…….well no the USA is not a Semitic nation. Not even close lol. This website has more than enough scholarly material available which puts to rest once and for all this BI nonsense.
You are correct with your point on migration. Common sense tells us and for securities sake, illegals must be stopped at the border.
Anonymous 10:16
You need to provide some evidence. All you have done is state a bunch of opinions. There are many victims in the process. But the chain of events starts with the American appetite for illegal drugs. Did it ever occur to you that if Americans did no use illegal drugs it would be a help to everybody?
Scout
Anonymous 7:27 wrote, "Yes, I suppose it is another test. Ignorant, wishy-washy, fake “christians” will be demon-inspired to wish for the USA to be invaded, conquered, and replaced by hostile foreigners."
You need to get a clue. You need to make a good logical counter argument not just spew malarkey. Surely you went beyond the fourth grade.
Scout
Those damned addicts and their "demand" for drugs: ruining their own lives, their communities, and central and south america. Eh, Miller? :) Should we leave the border open and continue feeding and growing the addictions?
Theological rebuttal: send missionaries into Mexico (and central and south america) to help our disadvantaged brothers there. This would allow them to maintain their communities and needed family support while not adding the stress of potential deportation, new language, and isolation.
7:27 I only agree with your take on the border . I can’t go into any nation without the paperwork and just start earning a living. So I think first Christian’s should study the issue of borders and their response to the stranger at the same time. Seriously study Malachi 3:5
I disagree with your BI ideology nonsense. There is nothing more fake Christian wishy-washy than believing in the great tribulation befalling “your Israelite nations” while at the same time not wanting your “Israelite nation” to fall. I mean which one is it??? Do you want America or Britain to be conquered or do you believe your “Jacobs trouble” applies to some other group of nations. We’re not the ones who send out doomsday articles about the end of America every other month. Make up your mind!
Tank
I am a salesman, amongst other things. Part of the sales success formula often involves creating a need for your product. Pushers are like any other folks involved in sales and marketing. They actively work at building their territories and market share. They do use their skills in selling for criminal intent.
Having said that, we most certainly have also corrupted Latin countries in ways which make their citizens feel the need to cross the border illegally. This past week, I learned that certain border state firearms dealers have been so effective at selling their merchandise to the cartels, that those who live in those territories fear for their lives, and will do anything possible to bring their families to the good ol' USA so that they might continue to live.
Many Liberals around the country are influenced by something called Derangement Syndrome. Sociologist Samuel L. Perry is one of these individuals. He claims understanding of people whom he detests because they generally don't scream at the sky or clutch pearls when something "scary" happens. He believes scary things should eventually drive you into looking more deeply into women and gender studies which are his listed academic specialties. He understands through this that those that do not respond as he does are misogynists and haters. The Derangement Syndrome Adherents (DSA) are "joyful" and hate themselves. They believe in the idea that America was founded in slavery and for the purpose of slavery. The DSA are complex; they recognize they do not understand those others (the icky) but believe they are adept at applying elaborate terms to the icky. It's difficult for the DSA because there are a lot of the icky. The white ones they can expressly detest; the browner ones they know even less well than the white ones, but they love to represent what they imagine people of color need. As Tiffany from Minneapolis said, "I went to a local university which is where I had my first class with a person of color, Holly. I understand their struggle as Holly and I were both in Cheer in High School and a white guy was class president in both our schools. I hate this country! I hate my parents!"
Regarding Central and South America, I believe slavery greatly affected their development. The African slave trade sold around 90% of their slaves to Central and South America; over 10 times more than to North America. A large percentage sent to Central and South America were brutalized and died prematurely. I think this harmed Central and South America more than anything.
Scary as hell Tonto.
Secure the border and send these bast**ds back. I’m non American and am amazed at previous American governments turning a blind eye to this and in denial there was a problem. Own the border and secure it, it ain’t rocket science.
"the USA appetite and demand for illegal drugs --- causing all kinds of problems"???
Thank you Scout for adding to my list of existential threats " man" believes he can solve on his own. He won't because he can't!
I'm sticking with my worldview based on the words of Jesus Christ in John 15:5-- "without Me you can do nothing"!!!
Yep, only 6% of the transatlantic slave trade went to North America. Where did all these black people come from in america then 🤔 ? That's another story.
Hi anon219,
I suppose legit gun dealers in border states can exacerbate the problem, but I doubt acquiring guns has ever been a problem for the cartels. This is further reason for securing the border and knowing who and what is coming in (or going out). With that said, I am for families migrating to the US. Most are hard working.
Nevertheless, I appreciate Scout’s summation of how the cartels endanger families. These cartels frankly should be taken out but the Mexican government works with the cartels and often supports them. Hey, Mexico likes money and their American drug slaves.
Locking down the border to such traffic is the intelligent Christian thing to do.
BertB 3:49 stated, “Many Liberals around the country are influenced by something called Derangement Syndrome.”
I could say that many conservatives are influenced by something called fascism. My statement would be just as empty as yours. Typically, this is called Trump Derangement Syndrome and is nothing more than a propaganda device used by MAGA supporters. It’s a “you’re crazy and we’re not” argument that is all rhetoric and no evidence. The rest of your first paragraph is just a tour through various odd expressions of bias which only achieves the purpose of informing the average person that they probably don’t want to talk to you.
In your second paragraph you seek to recruit Central and South American slavery to your cause. You seem to want to use it to diagnose the border problem but you are not successful. The topic is not so much a counterpoint as an irrelevant distraction. A detailed logical argument is lacking in this paragraph. But I would disqualify your view based on the etiology of the border crisis. Yes, Central and South America imported more Black slaves and their conditions were harsher. Does that obliterate my argument? No, it only points out that there are other factors in addition to the American appetite for drugs that can have an effect. But your argument is not a sacrament that grants forgiveness to the USA. It only makes the insensitive criminality of a drug-burdened nation more egregious. Things are bad enough in South American – why ladle on more? Why steal from a beggar’s plate? Show me where the Christianity is in that?
Scout
Anonymous 10:16 stated, “…yeah sure Scout, blame the victims.
This is a statement of profound irony. Somehow the hedonistic people of the USA are the victims and the devastated people at the border are the perpetrators. This is reversal of conventional ethics. What I can say is that not every American is culpable. There are people with Christian empathy for the people on the border. There are people who deplore the use of illegal drugs and their down-stream consequences. In general, you do not find these people among White Nationalists. If you read what the MAGA crowd has written, you see they are focused entirely on the facetious notion that the “evil immigrant” is going to invade, replace us and vote Democratic. If you think a little, you can see in this viewpoint that one American political party is “evil” and the other is “righteous” (and segueing towards White Nationalism). And this is where the victim actually gets blamed.
But let us see if this evil will prosper. Even Googles AI knows which direction the wind is blowing in: “The United States consumes more illicit drugs than any other country.” Odd that Armstrongists, always looking for evil, do not seem to catch on to this very well. I give this political drama until the Midterms in 2026.
Scout
There are current existential threats bubbling below the surface, not quite realized as yet in their sheer magnitude by the general public. Like global climate change, they appear to resemble the conditions outlined in the book of Revelation for the end times, but conservative Christians might deny the connection, simply because they are also non-supernatural punishments, self-inflicted punishments by humankind, as opposed to spiritually-initiated events by God Himself.
We see PFAS, the so-called "forever chemicals" (because they never break down or dissipate), mentioned in the news. Strange phenomena are beginning to manifest themselves in such places as the nation's farmland, where animals are beginning to die off due to the presence of PFAS in the sludge recently used for large scale fertilization of millions of acres of farmland across the USA. The sludge contains processed human wastes, but was rigorously tested and approved for use as a more cost-effective alternative to other forms of fertilization. However, this sludge was not tested for PFAS, which are now known to exist in the sludge in concentrated form. Early reports coming in from farms in Texas are devastating.
We loved the concept of "better living through chemistry", and now it appears that our Scotchguard and other miracle products, have permanently contaminated all aspects of our environment, not the least of which is the all important food chain. I am anxious to see how the new administration deals with this as further investigations reveal the scope of this threat, and its implications with regard to our nation's food supply chain. Forever chemicals are not a virus or bacteria. They are not the types of poison for which antidotes exist. And, they don't break down. How will Christians of the MAGA persuasion react to them? Some farmers in Texas are going broke because they have realized that continuing to sell the meat from animals raised on their now contaminated lands would poison those who would purchase and eat that meat.
This may appear to be off-topic. However, it represents yet another area which challenges the Christians who choose to involve themselves in the politics of our nation, and their choices and decisions (and group-think) will be very influential upon any solution or resolution.
BB
In all of this debate, what about God's words to Moses?
"For the Eternal your God is the Supreme God... never partial... Love the alien, then, for once you were aliens yourselves in the land of Egypt." - Deuteronomy 10:17, 19 (Moffatt)
Byker Bob 852 says,
"I am anxious to see how the new administration deals with this as further investigations reveal the scope of the threat . . .".
With promises to clean up the food and medical industries, RFK Jr. seems to be just the guy to get on top of this chemical / food supply problem. However . . . . .even conservative commentators are now saying he may not have the votes needed for confirmation.
No surprise here . . . .$$$ talks, and happens to be the root of all evil. I'm not getting my hopes up!
Scout, lol…I was focusing on the wider derangement syndrome not isolated to Trump.
Yes. There are a lot of vapid labels placed on people. It’s particularly annoying when it’s done by those that don’t understand the group they are labeling and won’t accept the “arguments” of those within the group that attempt to give a more accurate description, yet the labeler stubbornly believes they know the real truth. Samuel Perry strikes me as such.
The cartels are the problem; they would find their oppressive avenues whether we had millions of dear devastated addicts or not.
The cartels should be taken out.
These PFAS are some really nasty shit! They're worse than tetraethyl lead, and somewhat like radioactive waste!
https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2024/12/are-you-paying-lip-service-to-god.html
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