When one, after years of experience, study, skepticism and critical thinking comes to conclusions about all things religion and whether or not gods, angels and demons exist, they get bombed with nonsensical and emotional challenges and accusations by those who still believe.
On the other hand, those who have come to not believe or were never a believer need be careful of their own judgements on the beliefs of others.
There are apologetics, rebuttals, whatabouteries and accusations aplenty, one both sides of emotional issues.
The trick is to navigate them with understanding and acceptance of the experiences of others and mostly just leave them be.
This life lesson is often learned after all other avenues of expression have been explored and found wanting.
Note: All of the following, ON BOTH SIDEs are typical of comebacks when one finds themselves pushed into defense and survival mode with regards to one's beliefs or non-beliefs.
=====================
Some are the following charges against non-believers are:
You just hate God
Someone must have hurt you
It takes more faith to not believe than to believe
You just want to sin
You will have no reason to be moral
Who are you to question God?
Why do you have to tell everyone. Why not just keep it to yourself
You are just bashing believers
How dare you mock my faith
You have no hope
You can't see the wind can you?
I used to be an unbeliever like you but...
You just want to be your authority and God
What would it take to make you believe?
Atheism is just another Religion
So, we're just a clump of pond scum?
There are no atheists in foxholes
You'll find out when you are being cast into hell/Lake of Fire
I really fear for you
and so on...
==========
Bonus and Personal From BannedHWA
"Dennis hates those who are Christian and does all he can to mock those who believe."
"I have to wonder if Dennis used to mock the members in his congregations and their beliefs when he was a pastor."
"He dwells amongst believers. You should turn back to God Dennis before it is too late. The LORD sees what you do.
He still does 4:49!! He never left."
"Fool. (shouldn’t call a brother ‘fool’ so I am safe!"
"Another article by Dennis discrediting the bible as God's inspired word. And as usual, just before a holy day, in this case the Day of Atonement.
The holy days must secretly arouse anxiety in fallen Christians since it reminds them of their eternal end."
"Satan's greatest achievement is to make billions of humans believe he doesn't exist."
================================
On the other hand...
There are Insensitive Things Non-Believers Sometimes Say To Believers:
You believe in fairy tales
Science disproves God
Religious people are just brainwashed
You only believe because you were raised that way
Religious people are less intelligent
How can you believe without proof?
Religion is responsible for most of the world's problems
You're only religious because you afraid of death
You'd come to not believe if you only thought about it critically
Religion is a crutch for weak people
Prayer is pointless
Religious people are all hypocrites
You'll grow out of it someday
You only believe because of the need to hold on to something
How can you follow something that causes so much harm?
Religion is for the uncurious and non-questioning
and so on...
==========================
There can be truth and error in these kinds of views of others on both sides of such issues. Religion and Politics have always been THE hot topics people can lose their minds over blaming and shaming others as if that produces any positive change, acceptance or at least tolerance of one towards another.
I do it. You do it. Going from believer to non-believer, as with anything else, is done in just about the same stages as one goes through the stages of death. In this case, the death of an idea, a hope or a faith in that for which, more and more, there is little reason to cling to.
11 comments:
Good post Dennis. Unfortunately for you, you have demonstrated that the book called the Holy Bible is in fact TRUE and is what it claims to be. For the believer and non-believer alike:
There is none good, no not one (Psalm 14:3).
We are ALL carnal, sold under sin (Romans 7:14).
All of us have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23, 1 John 1:8).
We all still, on a daily basis, need a Saviour!
Let's give a big thanks to Dennis for bringing these Biblical facts to our attention!
I left Armstrongism back in 1995. Now I would classify myself as an agnostic. Some of the people I know have told me that I am mad at God for questioning his existence and not belonging to any religion. I say very little of what I don't believe to my wife who is still very much a "Jesus" person. I believe that a horrible place like Hell does not exist because if God does exist he is a God of love and he would never even allow a place like Hell to exist. I also don't believe there is a Lake of Fire or any kind of punishment. Believing that God is not cruel but a nice person is being mad at God if he exists, makes no sense to me!
What a tragedy this all is. Those who know, know.
Dennis,
Amen to your remarks in this post. There is never room for nastiness in these discussions, but we all sometimes allow that to seep into the mix. When we do that, of course, we are not being our better selves - not appealing to our better angels (as a very wise man once observed).
I respect your journey, and I respect your right to present your perspective here. We all bring our experiences along with us on our individual journeys. We are shaped by them, and that is to be expected and understood. I believe that even someone who has traveled a long way away from their experiences in Armstrongism are still influenced by them. I am, you are, James Tabor is. Like it or not, it is a part of who we are (not just who we were). Faulkner said, "the past is never dead - it's not even past." He was right.
Many of us share that experience of Armstrongism and breaking away from it. Even so, since then, our paths have diverged, and each of us has traveled our own road. We have also been shaped by new experiences - exposure to new information. Hopefully, we have learned and arrived at some different conclusions based on the totality of all of that. As such, we should not be quick to invalidate the different paths and destinations (conclusions) which all of us must inevitably arrive at.
Now, some folks are superficial, shallow, and intellectually lazy; but we must never generalize about such judgments and stereotype the other side in these conversations. Intelligent and very thoughtful people can and do reach very different conclusions about things. As someone who has had a personal conversation with you, I know that you are NOT an arrogant or mean-spirited person. Going forward, maybe we all need to be a little more sensitive to the wording we employ in pointing out our differences?
At any rate, that's my two cents (if it's even worth that)!
Lonnie
Dennis wrote, “Religion and Politics have always been THE hot topics people can lose their minds over…”
First of all, atheists and theists both believe in things whose existence cannot be analyzed through the application of the scientific method. In the realm of physics, there is dark matter. Both atheist astrophysicists and Christian astrophysicists would agree, I would expect, that there is something out there that is holding the infrastructure of the Cosmos together that cannot be seen or otherwise sensed. It is only known through its gravitational effects. Otherwise, nothing is known of its presence. For convenience, it is labelled “dark matter” because it has a gravitational effect on normative matter that we can see. But nobody really knows what it is existentially. Yet it is thought to comprise 27 percent of the matter in the Cosmos. This is a calculation based on gravitational effects. It’s not like we can see and measure it directly.
Similarly, God is invisible but Christian Theists would argue that he is known from his effects. People’s lives are changed. They have heard the testimonies. They know the personal histories. These are measurable results. The invisible God is known from his spiritual effects just as invisible dark matter is known from its gravitational effects. But the former is hotly controversial but the latter is pretty much accepted without a whimper of disenchantment by Atheists and Christian Theists alike. So, in this respect both Atheists and Christian Theists can have a common belief model.
There is a lack of parity between Atheists and some Christian Theists that must be considered. It does not justify insensitivity but explains why it may exist. Some Christians believe that they are involved in a war with the Dark Side for the souls of people. They fervidly evangelize because they think that if they didn’t, people would be lost to salvation. They sometimes talk about conversions they think that they have caused to happen as if they are racking up a score in a basketball game. This sense of warfare and competition can lead to insensitivity towards perceived opponents. I do not stand with this kind of evangelistic viewpoint because I believe that Christians are elected. I believe it is important to spread the Gospel message but not to browbeat people over it. God will provide for the elect. I think atheists may have a moderate missionary spirit but they do not have the fervor that some Christians have in the belief that they are saving lives.
Scout
I don't feel the "missionary for non-belief" need. I am curious by nature about all things theology and the sciences. I have been since very young. I find I must have a mistaken notion that others do too, but they do not for the most part. Thus, my mistake that others will be interested in what seems like something that might be interesting to consider. I mistakenly have believed that, because of our common origins of belief here at Banned, we might like to know what we did not realize about Biblical studies. I have also found that also not be true so thus the defensiveness of some at times.
When I meet them in person, I don't pick fights with Armstrongites. I am generally my usual affable, accomodating self. Armstrongites believe the brick wall that is part of their programming, much the same as do Jehovah's Witnesses or Scientologists. If they confront me, I usually tell them that WCG teachings left me wanting in many ways, which required me to start afresh and search for more complete answers. And, of course some of them are going to get a good chuckle over that, because at that point they believe that they were called to Armstrongism (their euphemism being "the truth") and that I was not and will get my chance or answers in the second or third resurrection.
The absolute worst thing you can do (in person) is to beome
highly animated, or appear angry, because that kicks in their programming re: bitterness, bonds of Satan, demon posession, persecution, intellectual vanity, etc. (pick cliche here). Anger confirms everything they already believe about you.
Enslavement in a cult is a choice some make, and is its own punishment for as long as people choose to ignore the facts and remain. Allowing people to continue to live in it until they bottom out is the most effective solution from a psychological perspective. Seems like everybody wants to save everybody else from themselves these days. It's a waste of time!
BB
Dennis, there's a big difference between non-believers and unbelievers. Unbelievers are reacting against religious claims they reject as false. Non-believers simply don't see sufficient evidence to accept various religious claims.
Unbelievers feel that they have good reason to say "No!" to religious claims. Non-believers feel that they don't have good reason to say "Yes!" to religious claims.
Unbelievers are uncurious and don't need to investigate further. Non-believers are curious and continue to investigate, and are humbly open to what they find, whether it deepens their appreciation of science and the physical world, or whether it deepens their sense of awe at so much they don't know, even if it doesn't stir their faith in any religion.
Non-believers look to reason and experience instead of faith. Unbelievers have faith in their reason and experience. The difference may be subtle, but it's the difference between "atheism as a religion" vs. "atheism as the provisional consequence of inquiry."
Many believers become un-believers, but stop there. They are stuck at being reactive against their rejected past. Those who can move on to become non-believers are fortunate, as they can rekindle the curiosity and openness that their old beliefs didn't allow.
Dennis
I believe that people engage in dissonance reduction. And sometimes to achieve this they adopt views that make them comfortable. Then once they settle into this, it is painful if their views are challenged. They also tend to lose curiosity.
While I am not an atheist but a Christian theist, I do have some minority views in my personal theology. Like an atheist, I can easily clash with other Christians over these views. So, I know what you are writing about.
Scout
And I fervidly believe, after being put out of the WCG in 1980, that.........
Herbie shall arise, with a vehement countenance, with real real dark blather, and corrupt and deceive to an extraordinary degree and magnify himself, i.e. "I'm the apostle".......paraphrase Dan 8:23-25
Hey, I'm still alive. God hasn't struck me dead yet.
No BP8, we must give thanks to the LORD for he may have sent Dennis or at the least allowed Dennis to test and ironically strengthen people's faith.
Post a Comment