Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!
With all the new crazy self-appointed Chief Overseers, Apostles, Prophets, Pharisees, legalists, and outright liars leading various Churches of God today, it is important to hold these agents of deception accountable.
Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
This is what happens when the founder of your church was anal retentive! HWA's obsessiveness in searching everywhere for paganism has directly caused useless questions such as this, and apparently ministers feel compelled to answer them.
A better question would be are this world's national flags of any significance to ambassadors for Jesus Christ? Sunday keeping Christians consider the USA to be a Christian nation, so the flag is of great importance to them. Armstrongites hold their noses and say, "No, that's falsely so-called!"
Here we go again! The rebellious UCG ministers are attacking the church. They just cannot handle the fact that COGWA is doing a much better witness for the Gospel than they are.
The 1997 movie "Starship Troopers" is a criticism of "American nationalism/militarism" gone rogue..... a parodie of American fascist tendencies. Yet the movie is more political than religious in its iconography.
With the current Right in an unhealthy alliance with religion (with people believing the USA was founded on the bible instead of principles of "natural law/inalienable rights/self evident", the American flag can currently represent an idolatrous religious message, as Nat Socialism was a religion in its own right carrying the insignia and flags to accompany that belief system.
Oh Jeez! Not too long ago, people laid the hippie stereotype on us regulars. Now they think we're disgruntled ACOG ministers? We must be doing an effective job of exposing Armstrongism.
Not 4:46. Blaspheming now! You are indeed UCG ministry. Why didn't you go with GCI in 1995? Think your lies and deceit and bullying is godly ? Proverbs clearly teaches a deceitful man only hurts himself in the long run.
Nck, The belief that we are a Christian nation was more prevalent decades and centuries ago. That there is a current rise in nationalism and in Christianity is a good thing. There may be a slight bump in Christian nationalism which can be a bad thing, but it’s trivial compared to the benefits of a moderate nationalism and an increased Christian influence. Intuitively, I know a longer period for these two movements will be good for the U.S. and the world. We are no where near a position where there is a danger from this nationalism. Don’t you as an intuitive also surmise that?
Yet most of what you say is plsin wrong from a historical perspective.
First the influx of Italians was bound to quota since they as Catholics were considered a danger to democracy as they looked for spiritual guidance tl a Foreign Prince.
Today we see Waspism replaced by Spanish - Catholic - Temperament.
Also when one visits DC and reads the Statutes as set forth by the ones honored in the Temples tbere one cannot understand any of it without a thorough understanding of the Enlightenment and products thereof like NATURaL Law... as I hinted at by quoting Jefferson.
Non of the founders quoted the bible.
I do agree that Catholicism re Vance, Rubiio, etc are better than Communism as practiced by the Catholic Biden. Yet filtered rhrough a MAGA lense I fear Christianity is weaponized ss a political tool that moves, away from the Enlightenment Ideal the USA was founded on by its original architects.
But yeah.... In general Christian principles are so unique, so precious, so superior to any other fsith that it may wither the storms of poliitical abuse.
El problema es que these people have also embraced white nationalism, and are rejecting established science. You know, Iran was once quite the advanced and modern nation. Suddenly, they reversed centuries of progress when Ayatollah Khomeini returned from exile. I see the present times in the US as the hard-right Christian equivalent of the Islamic revolution. That's what Project 2025 is all about!
Nothing can save the US from the impending crisis surrounding the national debt. I thought the tariffs were good because the money from them was going to at least make a feeble gesture in that direction. Now, a president with a badly fallen approval rate is going to use it to send out dividend checks!
Come to think of it, I've never been to a COG service where the congregation controlled the building - not rented from others - and had a U.S. flag in it.
That may be erring on the side of caution.
But you'd better not mark Veterans/Remembrance Day at church.
The writers of the declaration were deist. And correct, they did not quote the bible. And it's people's version of their christianity with that nationalism that gets weaponized. Galatians 3:28 solves the enigma, when practiced. But its hard for the Viveks, Kash's and the Dinesh's of the world within MAGA to cosplay.
What's this trip on UCG ministers? I left the WCG before there was any such thing as a splinter! Joe Tkach Sr. was a Preaching Elder at the time. Nothing ever made me want to attend anything started up by anyone rooted in Armstrong. I did enjoy listening to the gospel music sung at the African American church congregation across the street from AC Press though. I thought to myself that if they only let them, our own Colored Brethren could be making wonderful uplifting music like that as special music for us during sabbath services! Too bad the Armstrongs had such provincial attitudes.
nck said: "Non[e] of the [American] founders quoted the bible."
10:22 said: "The writers of the declaration...did not quote the bible."
Both statements are demonstrably false.
Political scientists Donald Lutz and Charles Hyneman conducted a landmark study published in the "American Political Science Review" (1984), analyzing over 15,000 political documents written between 1760 and 1805. They found the Bible accounted for roughly 34% of all citations—by far the most frequently referenced source in the founding era. The next most-cited author, Montesquieu, appeared only about 8% of the time.
Deuteronomy alone was the single most-cited book, surpassing any Enlightenment or classical work. Between 1760 and 1776, the Bible was quoted four times more often than Montesquieu and twelve times more often than Locke.
This data shows that biblical language, ideas, and moral reasoning deeply permeated American political discourse at the time of the founding—a reflection of a generation thoroughly steeped in the KJV Bible and its worldview.
False flag post ! What evidence is there that Herbert Armstrong said ANY flag was pagan ? He repeatedly used the American flag draped on a flag pole as branding for British Israelisim booklets and repeatedly in Plain Truth magazines ect.
Basically all the dystopian literature is based in leftist philosophy…conforming to a hopeless common mold for the population. A Christian “nationalist” philosophy is too far fetched even for dystopian literature.
Satan quoted Scripture too. The PLAIN TRUTH is that the United States is part of the same Babylonian power system that Russia, China, Great Britain, etc. are a part of - The U.S.A. was founded in sin. It is NOT God's nation, and it NEVER has been. Christians are citizens of the Kingdom of God. In this world, we are strangers and pilgrims on the earth. We don't want to be found giving our heart and allegiance to the Beast! Paul was a good citizen of Rome - he obeyed its laws, paid his taxes, and used the privileges to which it entitled him; but his allegiance was always first to Christ and his Kingdom. As Christians, none of us should want to become entangled in civilian affairs!
I hate to introduce some "yeahbuttitus" into the equation, but, I can't recall ever having seen the Stars and Stripes anywhere on the Ambassador College campus during my years there. And, I mean the regular flag. There were, as you say, pictures on the booklets, but no actual flags.
The flag was never trashed by the administration or ministry, but neither did we recite the Pledge of Allegiance at the beginning of classes each day, as we had in primary and secondary school. This was indifference, not hatred or perception of paganism. It was back in the days when members considered themselves to be Ambassadors for Christ, and not of this world. Not even the best church visionaries would have spoken of making America great again, as the official view was that we were watching the heirs to God's promises to Abraham on their final downward slide, a punishment for accepting the blessings, but not showing proper reverence or appreciation through obedience to God, specifically keeping the sabbath and avoiding robbing God by gratefully giving back His tithes instead.
We all have our own views of what may or may not be reality today. There is an abundance of well-researched material which tends to counter and shed doubt upon the rose-colored-glasses view expressed in my paragraph 2 above. However, what I described was the prevailing view throughout so-called "Golden Era" of HWA/WCG/AC.
Miller, It is foolish to say the U.S. was founded in sin, unless you are meaning a generalized milieu of sin that is present in all societies. Christian faith and expression of belief is more prevalent in the U.S. than in most any other country. That matters. Do I believe that the U.S. is God's nation? No. But, our country has prospered and I believe that has been due in part to our Christianity. It was in our churches that De Tocqueville saw the genius of our power and prosperity. As you no doubt recall he said, "America is great, because it is good." I get your point and I spend less time keeping up with politics, particularly the more sensational. But, involvement in civilian affairs is exactly what Christians should do as best they can. We are made to interact among our fellow travelers and try to make our journey better. Corrupt politics will corrupt a people. "When the king is righteous the people rejoice." corollary: The people will be happier with more righteous leaders. I think that is a good goal in this physical/spiritual life.
Luckily he pauses short of naming the USA as the Beast Power, which is SDA philosophy and remains in the Armstrongist fold with... "Who are the modern Romans?"
Great point Miller & Lonnie, ACOGs make the United States and Britain to be some sort of "israelite darling" lamb nation or something. That it's going to go through captivity again, and again, punished by the assyrians. Like its some kind of underdog thing. This is a nation that wasn't founded the Hebrew Calendar with Holy Days, it wasn't founded on a clean meat dietary understanding, neither was it founded on keeping the seventh day as the sabbath. It's part of that system of the world like all the other kingdoms of the world that rise and fall.
Thank you 9:24 for your very interesting contribution.
Even if I would agree with the sociological aspects of the argument posed.... It fails to understand Masonry, the Temples in DC with hiumans in them the entire grid of the seat of government and basic understanding of, natural law and the philosophical underpinnings of the Enlightenment of that Shining City on the Hill.
Yet.... Society at large was full of Protestant Ethic innits business Ooeration.... ss the editor of the Constitution felt compelled to write his own bible... 😁😁
Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix, Wednesday, November 12, 2025 at 5:19:58 AM PST, wrote:
"Satan quoted Scripture too. The PLAIN TRUTH is that the United States is part of the same Babylonian power system that Russia, China, Great Britain, etc. are a part of - The U.S.A. was founded in sin. It is NOT God's nation, and it NEVER has been. Christians are citizens of the Kingdom of God. In this world, we are strangers and pilgrims on the earth. We don't want to be found giving our heart and allegiance to the Beast! Paul was a good citizen of Rome - he obeyed its laws, paid his taxes, and used the privileges to which it entitled him; but his allegiance was always first to Christ and his Kingdom. As Christians, none of us should want to become entangled in civilian affairs!" ****** To be specific, you say that: "...Christians are citizens of the Kingdom of God..."
How do you figure that out?
The Kingdom of God has yet to be established on earth some time after Satan, who yes quoted scripture too, exits the pit.
However, a Doug Winnail and other hirelings, all seemingly driven by "another spirit," of the former WCG organization with their versions of "another gospel" are still anticipating, hoping, wishing even that their "another Jesus" will return "very soon," especially before anymore of them take a dirt-nap, to establish a Mickey Mouse Millennium on earth. Time is telling...
Lonnie, perhaps you meant that Paul, one of many "good" citizens of Rome, actually considered that Christians are: "...ambassadors for Christ,..." (2 Cor 5:20)?
But, time will tell...
Oh, and that Beast? How would one give one's heart and allegiance to the Beast?
6 heads, per Rev 17:7-10, of the Beast have already been fulfilled. The 7th head won't exist until after Satan exits the pit (Rev 20:1-3, 7-8). What happened in between those 2 heads (#6 and #7)? What happened to that Beast? Do any of those remaining hirelings, still alive, of the former WCG really know much of anything worthwhile about that Beast you mentioned.
Are more booklets needed to be printed about principalities (Eph 6:12) and distributed? And, if yes, then why?
Do we still live in a “world held hostage/captive?” It appears that we all may be, to one degree or another, still entangled in civilian affairs,” but…
Dr. Condoleeza Rice used to say that the USA was born with a couple of birth defects. In this, she was acknowledging slavery of Blacks, and the virtual genocide perpetrated against Native Americans (who were mistakenly called "Indians" from the Columbus invasion forward into the 1970s)
Make no mistake about it, the USA has also done many, many good things around the world. But it is not a theocracy presided over by Jesus Christ. Many religions base participants ' ideal behavior on acknowledging sins snd shortcomings, apologizing and correcting them to whatever extent is possible. Doing that on a national basis is not being antipatriotic! It is trying to become the best version of ourselves and our country!
Hey John, Mainstream Christians do not have any problems with Christians being citizens of the Kingdom of God. Only the "soul sleep" people have a problem with that. Many Christians have faith that they are saved, right now, and today! Because, God can keep them saved! So, in effect, they're in the same category as the ones who actually are saved, but who have died and gone to be with the Lord!
Leave it to Herbert W. Armstrong to poo poo all over that, and to mock, and attempt to disprove and destroy the faith of those who believe in that way. It would have been the gracious thing for him to do just to remain silent on that topic! But that would not have been our dear old Herbie now, would it? Sad thing is the dumb ass used a single comma to do it!
2:05 Your first paragraph reminded me of it's sort of like the born again, or born again (begettal) scenario. God has planted his seed (sperm) in those who are being saved, just not fully born via a resurrection.
I used to buy into the fairytale version of American history - just as I used to buy into Herbie's baloney. The United States was founded by folks who resented the efforts of the mother country to force them to pay part of the costs of defending/protecting them. They justified their rebellion by pointing out that they did not have any representation in the body which had the power to tax them. As in the present time, they were motivated by greed and protecting their own self-interest.
Moreover, although the founding documents proclaimed that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness," the same men who wrote them owned African slaves and denied to them all three. Likewise, as with the government they had just overthrown, they established a system which also often denied the female gender all three "unalienable" rights. In similar fashion, Native Americans were often deprived of these God-given "rights." Indeed, these same men were pissed that the British had offered some small measures of protections for the natives. In other words, "how dare those folks in London keep us from exploiting these people and their lands!"
Christian? Golden Rule? Love? I don't think so! Those God-given rights were only for white, landholding, adult males. Everyone else was SOL!
Jesus Christ was/is the personification of the Kingdom of God, and he has already made us into a kingdom of priests to serve God (Luke 17:21 and Revelation 1:6). There is a sense in which the Kingdom of God has already arrived in embryonic form (there is also a future sense to its establishment - Philippians 3:20-21). In this sense, we (Christians) are already citizens of that heavenly country (Hebrews 11:13-16). This does NOT negate the fact that one day (future), God's Kingdom will envelope the whole earth.
Pam Dewey, who is also an allumnus of Armstrongism, has an interesting website. Meetmythamerica.com. She exposes and treats many of the idealized portions of the US's official historical narrative. Pam is a thorough researcher, and there is much insightful material presented on her website, material one would need much time and patience to find on ones own. It is also very interesting, and great reading.
Miller, I’m aware of the issues you are stating but disagree with your conclusions due largely to the intent you inscribe on the individuals and some of the realities of these situations. I would never begrudge a people for desiring to throwing off the rule of a distant leader particularly when that rule includes religious rule. The North American colonial lines were largely determined by religious beliefs. Religion was in fact a major driving force in the revolution. Since middle school I’ve recognized that taxes were not so onerous as to cause revolt, but lack of representation and religion were. And, yeah, the desire for your efforts to result in more profits (nothing new there and nothing wrong there depending on degree).
Slavery was also largely correlated to those leaning toward deism and the hierarchical Anglican church of the time. They were primarily southern landowners. Several like washington released his slaves with inheritance upon the death of his wife martha.
“Big whoop” you may say and i get the sentiment. But, slavery was part of the milieu at the time but only 25 of the founders owned slaves and most had them as house servants which was not an onerous life historically …except for lacking freedom and representation…
Early on the african seemed so foreign and so primitive that the society truly believed them vastly inferior which they used to justify slavery. Then the elite’s wealth became tied to it. And, throughout history I’ve not seen many willing to give up great wealth on principle. Some plantation owners had 2/3 to 4/5 of their net worth in the slaves themselves. Look, people abort babies for far less, so I suspect those same people would not fight against slavery when it was so accepted in the day. People love their comforts that harm the environment too. If we want to see the worst of slavery we should look several thousands miles south in the Caribbean and South America where the slave trade dwarfed ours by 700-800% and slave life was far far more brutal and deadly. Why doesn’t anyone talk about that? I mean it, why not? But, because we were a nation predominantly Christian we began getting it right; even during the Revolutionary war (post Declaration of Independence) and shortly thereafter, Christians abolished slavery in several of our northern “states”. This continued in the North steadily such that 30-40 years after the Constitution slavery was largely abolished in the North. That is not trivial; it required Christians to root it out. We eventually fought a war over it though most in the South were primarily fighting for “the South” and for many their Scots-Irish views of independence more than slavery which was primarily among the Southern rich. Our country was born during a worldwide acceptance of slavery. Most of the Irish, Germans, Italians, dutch, etc came to this country after slavery with German heritage outnumbering English and Irish heritage close to English by some accounts. My point being that about 10% of our of age “white men” died to end slavery and even a larger portion of our current “white men” population had ancestors that were not here during slavery. And, the vast majority of Southerners that were here were hurt economically by Slavery. Anyway to make void the virtues of a people due to a worldwide cultural vice is foolish. Many of the Founders knew that there was a false pretense in the words “all men are created equal” but didn’t know how to change it widely during that cultural time. But, the Christians of this country eventually did.
I neglected to add my name to the long post in response to Miller. I love so much of what you write Miller, but think you are drawing wrong conclusions here…though I agree with you on this topic too at a point somewhere between the 1st and 2nd standard deviation if people.
Dang....I love Scout like a brother.... Yet nearly every word and statement in his lovely epistle is wrong. It is clear that Scout is not a historian although he may have read texts written by historians.
At least acknowledge the atrocious genocide during the trail of tears or the fact that 68% of America's export was based on slave produced products.
Only after acknowledging the terrible sins during the foundation of the USA, I am willing to discuss it being among the best ever and I really be8eve in the Masonic judt recognize A God snd then we meet on the square....
Dang Nck. You have got to be kidding me. Slavery is acknowledged as a great stain on this nation by this nation over and over. Our schools are forever talking about it as well as the treatment of the Indian. You definitely don’t live in the US or you would know this. We teach our vices much more than our virtues. Please do as you say and extol our virtues that we may hear accounts of virtues at a rate of greater than 1 to 10 of accounts of our vices.
Esther 5:2 — “When he saw Queen Esther standing in the court, he was pleased with her and held out to her the gold scepter that was in his hand. So Esther approached and touched the tip of the scepter.”
An horrific performed toward a symbol of a civil political/governmental entity not condemned. Saluting/Pledge of Allegiance not forbidden.
—
As for civil governments, being part of “Babylon”: Genesis 9:5-6; Deut 16:18ff; cf Romans 13:1-7 — Civil authority ordained of God. To apply “Babylon“ label inherently to civil governments and political entities would do the same to basic involvement in economies. No more buying and selling, period. Plus, such a view would violate Torah, thus is debunked by Deut 4:-12; 12:32-13:4; 30:1-10.
See https://catsgunsandnationalsecurity.blogspot.com/2025/06/reference-counter-to-traditional.html?m=1
Hey Jim... (sorry Scout). ...... I do extol the virtues of the indispensible nation in nearly every posting over the past 25 years. Slight problem is that I tie HWA in as the principal Herald or Messenger of the Empire abd exponent of its core message (although the "Dr" Armstrong in Constitutional Law was due to sponsoring of the Chair in said discipline).... Extolling the virtues of Mercury, the Announcer, the Weaver of the International entanglement (preaching a message of Pax Americana backed with nuclear holocaust to most World Leaders and All Diplomats of its time) does not land well on the blogs...
Jesus paid taxes to Caesar, instructed his disciples to do the same, and submitted himself to the Romans for trial and execution; but he NEVER endorsed the Romans system. Nebuchadnezzar was God's instrument to punish the Jews, to build an empire, and to demonstrate that God has the ultimate power and authority to rule; but John chose Babylon as the symbol of everything that was wrong with human governance. Hence, submitting to the human authorities which have been permitted by God to rule, should NOT be regarded as an endorsement of them or an acknowledgement of their right to do the things that they do (think Hitler. Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot) or their policies. Jesus submitted, but he knew that he and his disciples would replace that authority one day and do things very differently.
Ah yes, We must all be subject to the governing authorities (Romans 13:1). Unless we are Patrick Henry's of the world, "Give me liberty of give me death." There are times we must be patriots (whigs) and there are times we must be loyalist (torries). Right now our young people are saying "no taxation without representation." I wonder, we shall see.
I'm not sure that in assigning blame and giving credit your profiling is accurate, 6:16, although you have most certainly created some fresh stereotypes.
Insofar as slavery being an international trend goes, if a trend involves many people participating in something that is immoral or wrong, the exceptional ones are the ones who stand against that activity. As an example, if during the Sapphic period of history, you and your wife had gone on a cruise to the Isle of Lesbos, what sort of behavior would you expect of her, and what standard of rationalization or justification would you apply? We won't delve into this any more deeply here, because I want this to be posted. But, just use your imagination. It's a darned intriguing embodiment of what we're discussing.
Biblically speaking (not that I actually believe in the Bible)…
Romans 13: Until Jesus replaces it, As you say, the “powers that be” stand. If you disagree with that, you are simply picking and choosing what parts of the Bible you want to believe. That nullifies your authority. As for fundamentally wrong behavior by a government, personal conscience remains. (And in America, so does 2A.)
And again, using the “Babylon” label from Revelation to cover generic civil governance likewise requires extending it to cover generic economic activity. Forget about “marks,” you can’t buy and sell on the local economy, period. No investments, no fiat currency (but didn’t Jesus use coins?), and no SNAP.
The truth is, the Bible is full of uncondemned examples of governmental transitions being done by, shall we say, rather belicose means. Deuteronomy 16:18ff gives the nation itself — the people — the responsibility for establishing a JUST government. It doesn’t say how that has to be done. Successions or elections, conventions or consensus, bullets or ballots, there will inevitably be different opinions and subsequent clashes. It’s all part of the Genesis 9 lunch.
Could you clarify that, nck. Maybe use some different words or punctuation? I read your comment about 5 times, and it comes across as word salad each time.
46 comments:
But what if you carve a flag?
This is what happens when the founder of your church was anal retentive! HWA's obsessiveness in searching everywhere for paganism has directly caused useless questions such as this, and apparently ministers feel compelled to answer them.
A better question would be are this world's national flags of any significance to ambassadors for Jesus Christ? Sunday keeping Christians consider the USA to be a Christian nation, so the flag is of great importance to them. Armstrongites hold their noses and say, "No, that's falsely so-called!"
Anything can become an idol. https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2024/09/pledges-oaths-and-service-to-nations-of.html
So they're not Jehovah's Witnesses. The flag has been a big problem with them for decades.
Here we go again! The rebellious UCG ministers are attacking the church. They just cannot handle the fact that COGWA is doing a much better witness for the Gospel than they are.
Why do those odd clouds have the face of Satan in them? More proof, you are all demon-influenced!
The 1997 movie "Starship Troopers" is a criticism of "American nationalism/militarism" gone rogue..... a parodie of American fascist tendencies. Yet the movie is more political than religious in its iconography.
With the current Right in an unhealthy alliance with religion (with people believing the USA was founded on the bible instead of principles of "natural law/inalienable rights/self evident", the American flag can currently represent an idolatrous religious message, as Nat Socialism was a religion in its own right carrying the insignia and flags to accompany that belief system.
Nck
Oh Jeez! Not too long ago, people laid the hippie stereotype on us regulars. Now they think we're disgruntled ACOG ministers? We must be doing an effective job of exposing Armstrongism.
Not 4:46. Blaspheming now! You are indeed UCG ministry. Why didn't you go with GCI in 1995? Think your lies and deceit and bullying is godly ? Proverbs clearly teaches a deceitful man only hurts himself in the long run.
Guess i’m not psychotic enough to see Satan’s face or any face in those clouds. Look it up.
Nck,
The belief that we are a Christian nation was more prevalent decades and centuries ago. That there is a current rise in nationalism and in Christianity is a good thing. There may be a slight bump in Christian nationalism which can be a bad thing, but it’s trivial compared to the benefits of a moderate nationalism and an increased Christian influence.
Intuitively, I know a longer period for these two movements will be good for the U.S. and the world. We are no where near a position where there is a danger from this nationalism.
Don’t you as an intuitive also surmise that?
5:41
I agree that Christianity is a good thing.
Yet most of what you say is plsin wrong from a historical perspective.
First the influx of Italians was bound to quota since they as Catholics were considered a danger to democracy as they looked for spiritual guidance tl a Foreign Prince.
Today we see Waspism replaced by Spanish - Catholic - Temperament.
Also when one visits DC and reads the Statutes as set forth by the ones honored in the Temples tbere one cannot understand any of it without a thorough understanding of the Enlightenment and products thereof like NATURaL Law... as I hinted at by quoting Jefferson.
Non of the founders quoted the bible.
I do agree that Catholicism re Vance, Rubiio, etc are better than Communism as practiced by the Catholic Biden. Yet filtered rhrough a MAGA lense I fear Christianity is weaponized ss a political tool that moves, away from the Enlightenment Ideal the USA was founded on by its original architects.
But yeah.... In general Christian principles are so unique, so precious, so superior to any other fsith that it may wither the storms of poliitical abuse.
Nck
El problema es que these people have also embraced white nationalism, and are rejecting established science. You know, Iran was once quite the advanced and modern nation. Suddenly, they reversed centuries of progress when Ayatollah Khomeini returned from exile. I see the present times in the US as the hard-right Christian equivalent of the Islamic revolution. That's what Project 2025 is all about!
Nothing can save the US from the impending crisis surrounding the national debt. I thought the tariffs were good because the money from them was going to at least make a feeble gesture in that direction. Now, a president with a badly fallen approval rate is going to use it to send out dividend checks!
Come to think of it, I've never been to a COG service where the congregation controlled the building - not rented from others - and had a U.S. flag in it.
That may be erring on the side of caution.
But you'd better not mark Veterans/Remembrance Day at church.
The writers of the declaration were deist. And correct, they did not quote the bible. And it's people's version of their christianity with that nationalism that gets weaponized. Galatians 3:28 solves the enigma, when practiced. But its hard for the Viveks, Kash's and the Dinesh's of the world within MAGA to cosplay.
What's this trip on UCG ministers? I left the WCG before there was any such thing as a splinter! Joe Tkach Sr. was a Preaching Elder at the time. Nothing ever made me want to attend anything started up by anyone rooted in Armstrong. I did enjoy listening to the gospel music sung at the African American church congregation across the street from AC Press though. I thought to myself that if they only let them, our own Colored Brethren could be making wonderful uplifting music like that as special music for us during sabbath services! Too bad the Armstrongs had such provincial attitudes.
nck said: "Non[e] of the [American] founders quoted the bible."
10:22 said: "The writers of the declaration...did not quote the bible."
Both statements are demonstrably false.
Political scientists Donald Lutz and Charles Hyneman conducted a landmark study published in the "American Political Science Review" (1984), analyzing over 15,000 political documents written between 1760 and 1805. They found the Bible accounted for roughly 34% of all citations—by far the most frequently referenced source in the founding era. The next most-cited author, Montesquieu, appeared only about 8% of the time.
Deuteronomy alone was the single most-cited book, surpassing any Enlightenment or classical work. Between 1760 and 1776, the Bible was quoted four times more often than Montesquieu and twelve times more often than Locke.
This data shows that biblical language, ideas, and moral reasoning deeply permeated American political discourse at the time of the founding—a reflection of a generation thoroughly steeped in the KJV Bible and its worldview.
False flag post ! What evidence is there that Herbert Armstrong said ANY flag was pagan ? He repeatedly used the American flag draped on a flag pole as branding for British Israelisim booklets and repeatedly in Plain Truth magazines ect.
Same old arrangements same ole song. And sadly what I saw in a splinter is the same attitude in its core.
Basically all the dystopian literature is based in leftist philosophy…conforming to a hopeless common mold for the population. A Christian “nationalist” philosophy is too far fetched even for dystopian literature.
Satan quoted Scripture too. The PLAIN TRUTH is that the United States is part of the same Babylonian power system that Russia, China, Great Britain, etc. are a part of - The U.S.A. was founded in sin. It is NOT God's nation, and it NEVER has been. Christians are citizens of the Kingdom of God. In this world, we are strangers and pilgrims on the earth. We don't want to be found giving our heart and allegiance to the Beast! Paul was a good citizen of Rome - he obeyed its laws, paid his taxes, and used the privileges to which it entitled him; but his allegiance was always first to Christ and his Kingdom. As Christians, none of us should want to become entangled in civilian affairs!
I hate to introduce some "yeahbuttitus" into the equation, but, I can't recall ever having seen the Stars and Stripes anywhere on the Ambassador College campus during my years there. And, I mean the regular flag. There were, as you say, pictures on the booklets, but no actual flags.
The flag was never trashed by the administration or ministry, but neither did we recite the Pledge of Allegiance at the beginning of classes each day, as we had in primary and secondary school. This was indifference, not hatred or perception of paganism. It was back in the days when members considered themselves to be Ambassadors for Christ, and not of this world. Not even the best church visionaries would have spoken of making America great again, as the official view was that we were watching the heirs to God's promises to Abraham on their final downward slide, a punishment for accepting the blessings, but not showing proper reverence or appreciation through obedience to God, specifically keeping the sabbath and avoiding robbing God by gratefully giving back His tithes instead.
We all have our own views of what may or may not be reality today. There is an abundance of well-researched material which tends to counter and shed doubt upon the rose-colored-glasses view expressed in my paragraph 2 above. However, what I described was the prevailing view throughout so-called "Golden Era" of HWA/WCG/AC.
BB
Miller,
It is foolish to say the U.S. was founded in sin, unless you are meaning a generalized milieu of sin that is present in all societies. Christian faith and expression of belief is more prevalent in the U.S. than in most any other country. That matters. Do I believe that the U.S. is God's nation? No.
But, our country has prospered and I believe that has been due in part to our Christianity.
It was in our churches that De Tocqueville saw the genius of our power and prosperity. As you no doubt recall he said, "America is great, because it is good."
I get your point and I spend less time keeping up with politics, particularly the more sensational. But, involvement in civilian affairs is exactly what Christians should do as best they can. We are made to interact among our fellow travelers and try to make our journey better. Corrupt politics will corrupt a people.
"When the king is righteous the people rejoice."
corollary: The people will be happier with more righteous leaders.
I think that is a good goal in this physical/spiritual life.
Amen to Miller........
Luckily he pauses short of naming the USA as the Beast Power, which is SDA philosophy and remains in the Armstrongist fold with... "Who are the modern Romans?"
😁😁
Nck
Great point Miller & Lonnie, ACOGs make the United States and Britain to be some sort of "israelite darling" lamb nation or something. That it's going to go through captivity again, and again, punished by the assyrians. Like its some kind of underdog thing. This is a nation that wasn't founded the Hebrew Calendar with Holy Days, it wasn't founded on a clean meat dietary understanding, neither was it founded on keeping the seventh day as the sabbath. It's part of that system of the world like all the other kingdoms of the world that rise and fall.
Thank you 9:24 for your very interesting contribution.
Even if I would agree with the sociological aspects of the argument posed.... It fails to understand Masonry, the Temples in DC with hiumans in them the entire grid of the seat of government and basic understanding of, natural law and the philosophical underpinnings of the Enlightenment of that Shining City on the Hill.
Yet.... Society at large was full of Protestant Ethic innits business Ooeration.... ss the editor of the Constitution felt compelled to write his own bible...
😁😁
Anyway. Interesting quotation, thank you.
Nck
Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix, Wednesday, November 12, 2025 at 5:19:58 AM PST, wrote:
"Satan quoted Scripture too. The PLAIN TRUTH is that the United States is part of the same Babylonian power system that Russia, China, Great Britain, etc. are a part of - The U.S.A. was founded in sin. It is NOT God's nation, and it NEVER has been. Christians are citizens of the Kingdom of God. In this world, we are strangers and pilgrims on the earth. We don't want to be found giving our heart and allegiance to the Beast! Paul was a good citizen of Rome - he obeyed its laws, paid his taxes, and used the privileges to which it entitled him; but his allegiance was always first to Christ and his Kingdom. As Christians, none of us should want to become entangled in civilian affairs!"
******
To be specific, you say that: "...Christians are citizens of the Kingdom of God..."
How do you figure that out?
The Kingdom of God has yet to be established on earth some time after Satan, who yes quoted scripture too, exits the pit.
However, a Doug Winnail and other hirelings, all seemingly driven by "another spirit," of the former WCG organization with their versions of "another gospel" are still anticipating, hoping, wishing even that their "another Jesus" will return "very soon," especially before anymore of them take a dirt-nap, to establish a Mickey Mouse Millennium on earth. Time is telling...
Lonnie, perhaps you meant that Paul, one of many "good" citizens of Rome, actually considered that Christians are: "...ambassadors for Christ,..." (2 Cor 5:20)?
But, time will tell...
Oh, and that Beast? How would one give one's heart and allegiance to the Beast?
6 heads, per Rev 17:7-10, of the Beast have already been fulfilled. The 7th head won't exist until after Satan exits the pit (Rev 20:1-3, 7-8). What happened in between those 2 heads (#6 and #7)? What happened to that Beast? Do any of those remaining hirelings, still alive, of the former WCG really know much of anything worthwhile about that Beast you mentioned.
Are more booklets needed to be printed about principalities (Eph 6:12) and distributed? And, if yes, then why?
Do we still live in a “world held hostage/captive?” It appears that we all may be, to one degree or another, still entangled in civilian affairs,” but…
Time will tell...
John
Dr. Condoleeza Rice used to say that the USA was born with a couple of birth defects. In this, she was acknowledging slavery of Blacks, and the virtual genocide perpetrated against Native Americans (who were mistakenly called "Indians" from the Columbus invasion forward into the 1970s)
Make no mistake about it, the USA has also done many, many good things around the world. But it is not a theocracy presided over by Jesus Christ. Many religions base participants ' ideal behavior on acknowledging sins snd shortcomings, apologizing and correcting them to whatever extent is possible. Doing that on a national basis is not being antipatriotic! It is trying to become the best version of ourselves and our country!
BB
Hey John, Mainstream Christians do not have any problems with Christians being citizens of the Kingdom of God. Only the "soul sleep" people have a problem with that. Many Christians have faith that they are saved, right now, and today! Because, God can keep them saved! So, in effect, they're in the same category as the ones who actually are saved, but who have died and gone to be with the Lord!
Leave it to Herbert W. Armstrong to poo poo all over that, and to mock, and attempt to disprove and destroy the faith of those who believe in that way. It would have been the gracious thing for him to do just to remain silent on that topic! But that would not have been our dear old Herbie now, would it? Sad thing is the dumb ass used a single comma to do it!
2:05 Your first paragraph reminded me of it's sort of like the born again, or born again (begettal) scenario. God has planted his seed (sperm) in those who are being saved, just not fully born via a resurrection.
Jim,
I used to buy into the fairytale version of American history - just as I used to buy into Herbie's baloney. The United States was founded by folks who resented the efforts of the mother country to force them to pay part of the costs of defending/protecting them. They justified their rebellion by pointing out that they did not have any representation in the body which had the power to tax them. As in the present time, they were motivated by greed and protecting their own self-interest.
Moreover, although the founding documents proclaimed that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness," the same men who wrote them owned African slaves and denied to them all three. Likewise, as with the government they had just overthrown, they established a system which also often denied the female gender all three "unalienable" rights. In similar fashion, Native Americans were often deprived of these God-given "rights." Indeed, these same men were pissed that the British had offered some small measures of protections for the natives. In other words, "how dare those folks in London keep us from exploiting these people and their lands!"
Christian? Golden Rule? Love? I don't think so! Those God-given rights were only for white, landholding, adult males. Everyone else was SOL!
John,
Jesus Christ was/is the personification of the Kingdom of God, and he has already made us into a kingdom of priests to serve God (Luke 17:21 and Revelation 1:6). There is a sense in which the Kingdom of God has already arrived in embryonic form (there is also a future sense to its establishment - Philippians 3:20-21). In this sense, we (Christians) are already citizens of that heavenly country (Hebrews 11:13-16). This does NOT negate the fact that one day (future), God's Kingdom will envelope the whole earth.
Thanks, Nck
Pam Dewey, who is also an allumnus of Armstrongism, has an interesting website. Meetmythamerica.com. She exposes and treats many of the idealized portions of the US's official historical narrative. Pam is a thorough researcher, and there is much insightful material presented on her website, material one would need much time and patience to find on ones own. It is also very interesting, and great reading.
BB
Miller,
I’m aware of the issues you are stating but disagree with your conclusions due largely to the intent you inscribe on the individuals and some of the realities of these situations.
I would never begrudge a people for desiring to throwing off the rule of a distant leader particularly when that rule includes religious rule. The North American colonial lines were largely determined by religious beliefs. Religion was in fact a major driving force in the revolution. Since middle school I’ve recognized that taxes were not so onerous as to cause revolt, but lack of representation and religion were. And, yeah, the desire for your efforts to result in more profits (nothing new there and nothing wrong there depending on degree).
Slavery was also largely correlated to those leaning toward deism and the hierarchical Anglican church of the time. They were primarily southern landowners. Several like washington released his slaves with inheritance upon the death of his wife martha.
“Big whoop” you may say and i get the sentiment. But, slavery was part of the milieu at the time but only 25 of the founders owned slaves and most had them as house servants which was not an onerous life historically …except for lacking freedom and representation…
Early on the african seemed so foreign and so primitive that the society truly believed them vastly inferior which they used to justify slavery. Then the elite’s wealth became tied to it. And, throughout history I’ve not seen many willing to give up great wealth on principle. Some plantation owners had 2/3 to 4/5 of their net worth in the slaves themselves. Look, people abort babies for far less, so I suspect those same people would not fight against slavery when it was so accepted in the day. People love their comforts that harm the environment too.
If we want to see the worst of slavery we should look several thousands miles south in the Caribbean and South America where the slave trade dwarfed ours by 700-800% and slave life was far far more brutal and deadly. Why doesn’t anyone talk about that? I mean it, why not?
But, because we were a nation predominantly Christian we began getting it right; even during the Revolutionary war (post Declaration of Independence) and shortly thereafter, Christians abolished slavery in several of our northern “states”. This continued in the North steadily such that 30-40 years after the Constitution slavery was largely abolished in the North. That is not trivial; it required Christians to root it out. We eventually fought a war over it though most in the South were primarily fighting for “the South” and for many their Scots-Irish views of independence more than slavery which was primarily among the Southern rich.
Our country was born during a worldwide acceptance of slavery.
Most of the Irish, Germans, Italians, dutch, etc came to this country after slavery with German heritage outnumbering English and Irish heritage close to English by some accounts. My point being that about 10% of our of age “white men” died to end slavery and even a larger portion of our current “white men” population had ancestors that were not here during slavery. And, the vast majority of Southerners that were here were hurt economically by
Slavery.
Anyway to make void the virtues of a people due to a worldwide cultural vice is foolish. Many of the Founders knew that there was a false pretense in the words “all men are created equal” but didn’t know how to change it widely during that cultural time. But, the Christians of this country eventually did.
I neglected to add my name to the long post in response to Miller. I love so much of what you write Miller, but think you are drawing wrong conclusions here…though I agree with you on this topic too at a point somewhere between the 1st and 2nd standard deviation if people.
Dang....I love Scout like a brother.... Yet nearly every word and statement in his lovely epistle is wrong. It is clear that Scout is not a historian although he may have read texts written by historians.
At least acknowledge the atrocious genocide during the trail of tears or the fact that 68% of America's export was based on slave produced products.
Only after acknowledging the terrible sins during the foundation of the USA, I am willing to discuss it being among the best ever and I really be8eve in the Masonic judt recognize A God snd then we meet on the square....
Nck
Dang Nck. You have got to be kidding me. Slavery is acknowledged as a great stain on this nation by this nation over and over. Our schools are forever talking about it as well as the treatment of the Indian. You definitely don’t live in the US or you would know this. We teach our vices much more than our virtues. Please do as you say and extol our virtues that we may hear accounts of virtues at a rate of greater than 1 to 10 of accounts of our vices.
Biblical take on the matter:
Esther 5:2 — “When he saw Queen Esther standing in the court, he was pleased with her and held out to her the gold scepter that was in his hand. So Esther approached and touched the tip of the scepter.”
An horrific performed toward a symbol of a civil political/governmental entity not condemned. Saluting/Pledge of Allegiance not forbidden.
—
As for civil governments, being part of “Babylon”: Genesis 9:5-6; Deut 16:18ff; cf Romans 13:1-7 — Civil authority ordained of God. To apply “Babylon“ label inherently to civil governments and political entities would do the same to basic involvement in economies. No more buying and selling, period. Plus, such a view would violate Torah, thus is debunked by Deut 4:-12; 12:32-13:4; 30:1-10.
See https://catsgunsandnationalsecurity.blogspot.com/2025/06/reference-counter-to-traditional.html?m=1
Hey Jim... (sorry Scout).
...... I do extol the virtues of the indispensible nation in nearly every posting over the past 25 years. Slight problem is that I tie HWA in as the principal Herald or Messenger of the Empire abd exponent of its core message (although the "Dr" Armstrong in Constitutional Law was due to sponsoring of the Chair in said discipline).... Extolling the virtues of Mercury, the Announcer, the Weaver of the International entanglement (preaching a message of Pax Americana backed with nuclear holocaust to most World Leaders and All Diplomats of its time) does not land well on the blogs...
Nck
Lee Walker,
Jesus paid taxes to Caesar, instructed his disciples to do the same, and submitted himself to the Romans for trial and execution; but he NEVER endorsed the Romans system. Nebuchadnezzar was God's instrument to punish the Jews, to build an empire, and to demonstrate that God has the ultimate power and authority to rule; but John chose Babylon as the symbol of everything that was wrong with human governance. Hence, submitting to the human authorities which have been permitted by God to rule, should NOT be regarded as an endorsement of them or an acknowledgement of their right to do the things that they do (think Hitler. Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot) or their policies. Jesus submitted, but he knew that he and his disciples would replace that authority one day and do things very differently.
Ah yes, We must all be subject to the governing authorities (Romans 13:1). Unless we are Patrick Henry's of the world, "Give me liberty of give me death." There are times we must be patriots (whigs) and there are times we must be loyalist (torries). Right now our young people are saying "no taxation without representation." I wonder, we shall see.
American Revolution: You know Ken Burns special is coming soon. Can't wait to check it out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lruEtNTN9oY
I'm not sure that in assigning blame and giving credit your profiling is accurate, 6:16, although you have most certainly created some fresh stereotypes.
Insofar as slavery being an international trend goes, if a trend involves many people participating in something that is immoral or wrong, the exceptional ones are the ones who stand against that activity. As an example, if during the Sapphic period of history, you and your wife had gone on a cruise to the Isle of Lesbos, what sort of behavior would you expect of her, and what standard of rationalization or justification would you apply? We won't delve into this any more deeply here, because I want this to be posted. But, just use your imagination. It's a darned intriguing embodiment of what we're discussing.
Lonnie:
Biblically speaking (not that I actually believe in the Bible)…
Romans 13: Until Jesus replaces it, As you say, the “powers that be” stand. If you disagree with that, you are simply picking and choosing what parts of the Bible you want to believe. That nullifies your authority. As for fundamentally wrong behavior by a government, personal conscience remains. (And in America, so does 2A.)
And again, using the “Babylon” label from Revelation to cover generic civil governance likewise requires extending it to cover generic economic activity. Forget about “marks,” you can’t buy and sell on the local economy, period. No investments, no fiat currency (but didn’t Jesus use coins?), and no SNAP.
The truth is, the Bible is full of uncondemned examples of governmental transitions being done by, shall we say, rather belicose means. Deuteronomy 16:18ff gives the nation itself — the people — the responsibility for establishing a JUST government. It doesn’t say how that has to be done. Successions or elections, conventions or consensus, bullets or ballots, there will inevitably be different opinions and subsequent clashes. It’s all part of the Genesis 9 lunch.
Could you clarify that, nck. Maybe use some different words or punctuation? I read your comment about 5 times, and it comes across as word salad each time.
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