Why is it that so many of the people lecturing us today on how great they are at restoring "the truth once delivered" turn out to come from families with damaged relationships? Consider Herbert Armstrong, who alienated all of his children; Bob Thiel, with his damaged relationship with his father and family; Dave Pack, who alienated all of his children and grandchildren; and now the Kitchen family.
Samuel Kitchen has spent years waxing poetic about what an amazing father and mother he had, and how they faithfully stuck to the roots of Herbert's message without ever straying, despite numerous ministers and government officials who tried to silence them.
After Samuel's epic failure with his Petra escapade several years ago, his relationship with his brothers deteriorated. He shared too much information about them online, which caused an estrangement with his brother Tim.
Now Samuel has written a song about his wayward brother, who is now part of the United Church of God. Tim now runs exclusive control of the Worldwide Church of God archives site, which previously was managed by both him and Samuel.
It is truly sad to watch those who take Armstrongism to the extreme and see how it destroys families and relationships. Instead of turning the hearts of the children to their fathers and the fathers to their children, it has built a huge wall that separates them.
Dear lord I come before you now
On my knees, before you I do bow
I pray for a brother who just does not see
Any worth or value that you see in me
Let my rival learn your love and your way!
Let my rival learn your peace and how to be brave
Dear lord please bless him I don’t want to see him hurt
Oh show him what you do for me every day
He may be my rival, but not for long, for him I do pray…
Dear lord, I am hurt by his words,
Oh how I ache to see him return
He is my family and he just doesn’t see
All the worth and value that you see in me
Let my rival learn your love and your way!
Let my rival learn your peace and how to be brave
Dear lord please bless him I don’t want to see him hurt
Oh show him what you do for me every day
He may be my rival, but not for long, for him I do pray…
What can I do to heal this breach?
What can I change to help my brother see?
I seem to be his enemy, but here I pray
Humble me and keep me in thy way
Let my rival learn your love and your way!
Let my rival learn your peace and how to be brave
Dear lord please bless him I don’t want to see him hurt
Oh show him what you do for me every day
He may be my rival, but not for long, for him I do pray…
Let my rival learn your love and your way!
Let my rival learn your peace and how to be brave
Dear lord please bless him I don’t want to see him hurt
Oh show him what you do for me every day
He may be my rival, but not for long, for him I do pray…
You can listen to his video here: My Rival
I was looking at some online sites about why churches are breeding grounds for unbalanced beliefs and actions, and why they treat each other so badly. This is some of what I found:
Some churches appear unbalanced in their beliefs (e.g., extreme doctrines, black-and-white thinking, or rigid rules) and in how they treat people (e.g., harsh judgment, control, division, or lack of compassion) because certain groups function more like high-control or authoritarian religious environments than healthy, balanced faith communities. This imbalance often stems from structural, psychological, and social dynamics that prioritize power, conformity, and exclusivity over grace, mutual respect, and relational health.
What should we expect from a church that worships at the base of the altar of the law and which flippantly discredits grace? When did the Church of God leaders EVER exhibit mutual respect? I could count those times on one hand, even after having all of my fingers amputated. When has the church, from its leaders down to its members, had relational health?
Armstrongism often results in deep personal, familial, and relational damage precisely because its unbalanced beliefs create a high-control environment that prioritizes doctrinal purity, absolute loyalty to the leader/group, and separation from the "world" over healthy relationships, grace, and emotional well-being.
These unbalanced elements—rooted in absolutism, fear-based obedience, and rigid hierarchies—don't just lead to theological extremes; they actively erode family bonds and human connections in ways that many former members describe as devastating.
These unbalanced elements—rooted in absolutism, fear-based obedience, and rigid hierarchies—don't just lead to theological extremes; they actively erode family bonds and human connections in ways that many former members describe as devastating.
Here are some of the points why this happens so consistently:
The irony is painful: a theology centered on God as a "family" (the God Family doctrine) often produces the opposite in human families—division, estrangement, and lasting wounds. Many who leave describe it as finally finding freedom to love and heal without the fear-driven walls. If this connects to personal experiences, it's a common story in Armstrongist circles, and recognizing these patterns is often the start of recovery.
- "Us vs. Them" and Isolation from Outsiders — Armstrongism teaches that mainstream Christianity is deceived or pagan-influenced, and only the group holds the "true" restored gospel. This fosters extreme separation: members are discouraged or forbidden from close ties with non-believers, including family members who don't join or who leave. Holidays like Christmas, Easter, or birthdays are labeled pagan, so families who celebrate them face pressure to cut contact. The result? Marriages break, children are alienated from parents/siblings, and extended families fracture—often justified as "obeying God" over human ties.
- Strict Obedience and Authority Structures — Leadership (especially the founder or current "apostle/prophet/chief overseer/pastor general") is seen as God's direct mouthpiece. Questioning doctrine or leaders is equated with rebellion against God, leading to harsh discipline like disfellowshipping. This creates fear: members may report on each other, avoid associating with "dissidents," or prioritize church loyalty over family. Former members frequently report that family members were pressured to shun relatives who doubted, left, or were deemed "Laodicean" (lukewarm). This directly contradicts biblical ideals like turning "the hearts of the fathers to the children" (Malachi 4:6), instead building walls of division.
- Divorce/Remarriage and Family Rules — Historical doctrines (e.g., strict rules on divorce/remarriage, sometimes requiring people to leave second marriages) caused immense pain. Even after some changes, splinter groups often retain rigid views that prioritize doctrinal conformity over reconciliation. Combined with tithing demands that strained finances, this led to poverty, stress, and broken homes for many.
- Fear, Guilt, and Cognitive Dissonance — Prophecies of imminent end-times (e.g., failed dates like 1975) created urgency and fear. When prophecies failed or leaders showed hypocrisy, members often doubled down on extremes to resolve inner conflict, becoming more judgmental or isolated. This mindset justifies harsh treatment of "backsliders" or worse, "Laodiceans," which may include family, as tough love or necessary separation from sin.
- Patterns in Leadership and Splinters — Herbert Armstrong had documented family alienation, including rifts with his son Garner Ted (who was ousted amid scandals). Many offshoots show similar issues: leaders like Dave Pack have faced accusations of alienating children/grandchildren through disfellowshipping or control; others like Bob Thiel or various Kitchen family dynamics reflect strained relationships tied to doctrinal disputes or group loyalty. Ex-members' accounts (from forums, books, and sites like The Painful Truth or ex-WCG communities) repeatedly describe ruined childhoods, lost family ties, emotional abuse, and generational trauma—often because the group demanded total allegiance.
The irony is painful: a theology centered on God as a "family" (the God Family doctrine) often produces the opposite in human families—division, estrangement, and lasting wounds. Many who leave describe it as finally finding freedom to love and heal without the fear-driven walls. If this connects to personal experiences, it's a common story in Armstrongist circles, and recognizing these patterns is often the start of recovery.
28 comments:
There is nothing that unites as much as religion and there is nothing that can divide as much as religion. The author of this ground shaking comment is me lol. United we stand divided we fall. Armstrongism is living proof of this, as nations and political movements have fallen so it is in the religious sphere. There will be no rapprochement within this movement. It’s over folks. Its core doctrines are suspect and discredited. Its main players and leadership have proven devoid of the leadership qualities of servant hood that Jesus Himself displayed. The words of Gamaliel come to mind.
In Armstrongism, law trumps grace, conformity trumps sincerity, doctrine trumps truth, religion trumps spirituality, sarcasm trumps empathy, heartlessness trumps compassion, obedience trumps forgiveness, and loathing trumps love.
Why is it ok for the "Banned" team here to welcome & embrace almost any & all world religions, sects, & denominations, except for the COG?
Are the clever leaders at Banned bestowed with righteous judgement enough to decree alienation from COG while giving a free pass to Islam, Buddhism, Catholicism, Protestantism, Pentecostalism, the Sanctifieds, et al?
How is Banned bless'd enough to single out COG as the culprit of world strife & division? What if COG is "not guilty"?
Mark 3:25 And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
Armstrongism is divided against itself with all its splinters throughout the years. It tries to be knit together (although in splinterdom) in their "doctrine" or restored truth instead of being knit together in love (Col. 2:2).
Tank
Galations 1::6
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the GRACE of Christ unto another GOSPEL 7 which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would PERVERT the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, LET HIM BE ACCURSED . 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Any comments?
The cause for any estrangement or separation was not God or what I was taught as a child. God and His Word has actually been the steady rock through the rough spots in my life. It comes down to human flaws and perspectives of many things that came to where I am today, nothing that cannot be worked out. But I attribute any good or any path I walk to God, although at times I caused many things that happened to me. But what had happened between my brother and I, was not because of God or the Church of God and it's doctrines and beliefs. It is like judging a criminal in America, a criminal because he was an American. Or any other country for that matter. We all have things to change and overcome that will help our relationships. And we all have different degrees of change and walk. But as long as we work on ourselves and look to God for the change, it has proven to improve relationships. So I try not to focus much on what others are doing, because doing that will not make me a better person. So I have no animosity to my brother, nor am I his rival. A perspective he currently has. I am praying for him.
- Timothy Kitchen Jr
The seeds for all of this go back to what was taking place in the church during the so-called golden era of the 1950s and '60s, the foundational years experienced by us, the "dinosaur" baby boomers. It was taught that you separated yourself from "unconverted" family members, neighbors, colleagues at work, and long term friends because you just could not have the close relationship with those who were not being "called" at this time that you could with the brethren and ministers of "God's True Church".
Further, love was conditional, and transactional. The child rearing booklet and other church literature taught that "real" love was only possible as a result or function of continued obedience and proper attitude. If one did not adhere, one was simply expendable, getting put out so that those with the right attitude would not be infected, and in the case of young males, this might have actually included a tour in Vietnam as opposed to education at God's West Point, Ambassador College. Imagine a "normal" parent seeing their children in that light! Imagine June and Ward Cleaver treating Wally and the Beav that way!!!
What I learned, through this and other life experiences is that love cannot be selective. It is not something you can turn off, and turn on. It is there for all, or not there at all. If you are taught that it is to be withheld from certain people, you will eventually find excuses to withhold it even from the brethren. This one does this that just is not right. This one brings problems upon himself or herself because he or she still listens to the wrong kind of music. This one does this or that on the sabbath. This member is a lax parent who does not spank his or her children enough as instructed in the child rearing booklet, and their children do not say "sir" and "ma'am".
When you teach conditional love, you kill off a profound emotion that most humans have naturally. Goodbye, empathy! This makes followers hold all others at an arm's length, immune to their feelings, their pain, their joy, their well-being because, to this new line of thinking, their human foibles or perceived inadequacies make them not worthy of love or close relationships. Once this is killed off, you can attempt to replicate it, replacing what was natural with logic-based behavior, imitating good examples of loving behavior, but it is never the same as what was innate at birth. Armstrongism seared away natural love, and made it a conditional commodity which could only be shared amongst fellow compliant Armstrongites. You think Flurry's separatism from "Laodiceans" came out of thin air? Guess again! He only restated original HWA teachings in that area.
Does anyone actually believe that if you cannot have natural loving relationships with fellow human beings, somehow you CAN have a natural close relationship with God? The two great commandments of the Lord (Love for God, love for man) were meant to be companions to one another, not to be mutually exclusive, i.e.to be used as excuses to exclude one another! That was arguably HWA/WCG and current splinters' greatest error!
BB
Silly boy, 9:33! We don't give these other religions a pass! It's just that Armstrongism was the false religion that warped and robbed us for as long as we permitted it to do. There is simply no basis on which we can discuss something with which we have no experience
Exactly, as I learned and suffered in my horrendous 13 years in the Worldwide Church of God. I got out just before my marriage would have failed.
While in, every concept was backwards and wrongly directed. Destructive altogether. Now, I live and love by grace, unearned but joyously received and practiced.
These words have been used by Armstrong and his followers for decades to convey the myth only they preach the true gospel.
One sees it in their gospel booklets. As if in the citing of this verse their claim to be preaching the only true gospel becomes bolstered and others damned.
When we come to learn what is the Gospel these words have a new meaning to us.
Taken at face value they mean what they say - Paul is saying such false preachers/gospel must be placed outside of the covenant community, and in that sense fall under God’s judgment. He is countering those of the time who were bringing false demands upon believers which we read about.
Paul includes himself (“even if we preach another gospel…”)should he err.
God holds teachers accountable for misleading others and whatever consequence follows I'm unable to say as it is in God's hands.
"Ministry is a very competitive business." - a United Methodist Church bishop I heard years ago.
I have no idea, 6:07. I was never in close enough proximity to any of the three you mentioned in order to be able to test that. I am certain that God loves them. I don't want to see them thrown into the Lake of Fire. Would I resist them if they attempted to exert power over me, of get me to modify my behavior? Yes, of course. You can have Godly love for others without agreeing with them, imitating them, or getting buddy-buddy with them. Even the people you love profoundly can be working at cross-purposes to you, and you can both actually be right, but just running in different directions. You can even love someone, but hate some of their activities.
Perhaps you asked that as a rhetorical question? The question serves as a good spiritual thermometer.
BB
Most of the organizations are concerned about chasing the same dwindling tithe payers. Some of the smaller groups associate with UCG, and other large churches, but won't interact with other little groups, like them, even though they believe most of the same things.
That's interesting. Someone had asked if I unconditionally loved Steve Allwine, Herbert W. Armstrong and the current Ayatollah. My 5:41 response was directed to that. And then the comment disappeared. Hopefully this explanation returns context.
BB
Well Mr. BB, one of the many reasons I asked it, is because the lot o' y'all seem ready to throw your loving & forgiving arms 'round the likes of : Luigi Mangione...Bryan Kohberger...Steven Allwine...Israel Keyes...Rex Heuermann...Ariel Castro...Casey Anthony...Brian Laundrie...Ayatollah Khamenei...Mohammed Atta...
But y'all regularly pound out heavy, non-forgiving disdain & loathing abhorrence toward ye olde H.W.A.
Hardly ever, is "love" shown here for Mr. HWA. Is love for him, "banned"...here at "Banned"?
Would you really try to love Herr Hitler yet? Or to love Putin? Or Kim Jong Un? Or Nicolæ Ceauçescu? Or Gordon Stewart Northcott...the fiend who killed 9 yr. old Walter Collins in 1928? Or Henry VIII after killing Ms. Boleyn & Ms. Howard? Or the guy who killed Anne Frank? Or Chandler Halderson? Or John List? Or to love D. Crowl Pack? Is it ok with you, BB, if some of us put off love for them until some future, latter-day?
How are you going to love Jeffrey Epstein just yet, or Andrew Windsor-Mountbatten, or Warren Jeffs, or Harvey Weinstein, or General Custer, or Uday Hussein, or Qusay Hussein, or Papa Doc Duvalier, or the old Tontons-Macoutes...
Do some of the lefties here love Pete Hegseth? Or Donald J. Trump? Or Kristi Noem? Or Sen. Kennedy of Louisiana? Or BiBi Netanyahu? Or Tom Homan? Or Elon? Or RFK Jr.? Really?
Great comment, Byker. The Great Commandments are the basis for God's Law. They are morally comprehensive and universally applicable.
“Brother Against Brother: Why Is The Church of God So Divisive?”
It is not necessarily “brother against brother.”
The apostate Tkaches and their followers are not your brothers. They are false brothers and sisters who rejected the laws of God.
The false prophets like Gerald Flurry and others are not your brothers. They are extremely deceitful and vicious false prophets that Satan sent against the Worldwide Church of God people to try to destroy them even after they thought they had escaped from the apostates.
The old sex maniacs, sex perverts, and predators in the so-called COGs are not your brothers and sisters. They are old sex maniacs, sex perverts, and predators with their own selfish and immoral agendas who went to the so-called COGs for their own selfish and immoral reasons.
The false religious leaders who set up their own splinter groups so they could be in charge and steal the tithe money and make up their own pet heresies to teach people are not your brothers. They are just spiritual and financial fraudsters.
The reason that the so-called COG scene is so divisive is because there are so many godless and wicked people prowling around with their own bad agendas looking for people to prey upon.
The principle, 8:42 is hate the sin, love the sinner. And the same applies to political figures as it does to theological ones.
I've been saying
for years that if I happen to find myself in the Kingdom, and notice that HWA is being made to polish the Popes' sandals, I'll stop and help him.
Anon, Tuesday, February 3, 2026 at 10:55:42 AM PST, wrote:
[[“Brother Against Brother: Why Is The Church of God So Divisive?”
It is not necessarily “brother against brother.”
The apostate Tkaches and their followers...are false brothers and sisters...
...The false prophets like Gerald Flurry and others...are extremely deceitful and vicious false prophets that Satan sent against the Worldwide Church of God people to try to destroy them...
...The old sex maniacs, sex perverts, and predators...with their own selfish and immoral agendas who went to the so-called COGs for their own selfish and immoral reasons.
The false religious leaders who set up their own splinter groups so they could be in charge and steal the tithe money and make up their own pet heresies to teach people...are just spiritual and financial fraudsters.
The reason that the so-called COG scene is so divisive is because there are so many godless and wicked people prowling around with their own bad agendas looking for people to prey upon.]]
******
Anon 10:55:42, whether it is brother against brother, or not, the question remains: "Why Is The Church of God So Divisive?"
You gave a lot of excellent examples of flesh wrestling flesh, but why is that so?
When it comes to God's Church, James spoke of another spirit within Christians, sealed Firstfruits, that displayed evil fruit in their lives:
"Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?" James 4:5
Where did that spirit come from? That scripture is not in vain. Might that spirit also be involved with other such evil fruits as stealing, and robbing, lying (Hint: John 8:44; I John 3:8; Eph 2:2, etc.), murdering, worshipping God in vain (choose any evil)...? Lust and envy are not fruits of God's Spirit.
Jesus and Peter believed there would be problems brother against brother:
Matthew 18:15 "Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother."
Matthew 18:21 "Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?"
Luke 17:3 "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him."
God has left us an example of brother against brother:
Genesis 4:8 "And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him."
It appears to be solely flesh wrestling flesh, but was there more to that murder?
I John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil;..."
Satan was involved with sin in the lives of Adam and Eve, but what about Cain (e.g. Eph 2:2)?
:12 "Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother..."
No doubt, we all need to learn to hate evil (Psalm 97:10; Proverbs 8:13), and not to hate people, and by their fruits we know them, but Paul, inspired by God, wrote:
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]." Eph 6:12
Is The Church of God So Divisive, because flesh wrestles with flesh, or might there be other forces, influences, controls involved in our lives, whether we are aware of them or not?
Time will tell...
John
Wouldn't it be amazing if Africa ended up being the Laodicean place of safety?
Will time tell if you wrote hate when you say Tkaches & their followers are not our brothers but apostates?
Did you forget that Tkach's followers follow this site's precepts against HWA by the way?
How is Byker Bob going to protect you John from your hate when you hate?
Wow, after a closer exam of the details in the comment, it now looks like you sort of poked at Tkach AND Flurry but sort of supported Worldwide or something.
These threads are getting rather teetery & tottery, I'm gonna fuhgeddabouddit & go donate a little to P.e.t.a. in support of ending animal abuse aaugh.
Of course I'll protect John, 6:10! He's bringing the beer!
BB
You mean he's bringing the beer to the weekly hate-HWA-party?
Now you're pulling words out of your a$$, 9:13!
Anon, Wednesday, February 4, 2026 at 6:10:19 PM PST, asked numerous questions:
Isn't that hate too John
Will time tell if you wrote hate when you say Tkaches & their followers are not our brothers but apostates?
Did you forget that Tkach's followers follow this site's precepts against HWA by the way?
How is Byker Bob going to protect you John from your hate when you hate?
******
And BB said he'd protect me (Thank you, BB!) at a weekly-hate-HWA-party if I brought beer, but I'm not really much of a beer drinker. And how would BB protect me? Why would I need his protection from anything?
People, with different backgrounds, on this web site provide all sorts of responses to many types of issues. We all don't think alike, and the diversity of comments is allowed. It's okay to hate. Some hate people, which I prefer not to do. Others hate issues. Others hate God's law; others don't hate it. I imagine most, if not all, would profess that they love God, but, and how would that be manifested to others?
I hadn't even considered the phrase you mentioned: "weekly-hate-HWA-party."
But I did think about hate, and some verses came to mind relative to the phrase: "hate evil."
Psalm 97:10 “Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.”
Proverbs 8:13 “The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate."
The Bible has a lot to say about evil.
Thinking about evil, Jesus Christ mentioned: "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day [is] the evil thereof." Matthew 6:34
And the apostle Jesus, and other apostles, said: "love one another." They never said to "hate one another."
The Bible tells us that the LORD has made a lot of things. For example, Solomon wrote: "The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4
Did Solomon understand what he was inspired to write there? Are those words true? What day of evil is that? Who is "the wicked?"
As I said I had not thought about some "weekly-hate-HWA-party." This website isn't solely about hate towards people. It is about "news and observations about Armstrongism and the Church of God Movement," whether it is banned by HWA or not.
The apostle Paul told those of God's Church: "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]." Eph 6:12
Aren't people flesh and blood? Well, people are welcome to wrestle it, if they wish.
Would anyone desire to consider a "hate evil" party?
There really is no need for such a party; however, God in the Bible has revealed that there would exist those who hate evil and do not hate people, and...
Time will tell...
John
8:42 The way I see it is love doesn’t mean approval. I love all, but that doesn’t mean I approve of what they say or do. It’s like I love my kids, but it didn’t mean I approved of every choice they made growing up or even now. And love means correcring them when they are behaving in a harmful (“sinful”) manner. Nowhere in the “love chapter” does it state love means approval. Anyway just my 2¢.
So much focus on “hate” today every time I turn the TV on to watch the news. We’ve got secularists hating the religious; leftists hating the right; Zionists hating the Palestinians; Muslims hating the infidels (Jews, Christians, etc); LGBTs hating the Christians; natural born citizens hating immigrants; blacks hating the whites; etc and vice versa to the point that politicians are trying to stop “hate” by legislating against it in public and online. Problem is it won’t work and won’t end well for these fascists who want to control every aspect of people’s thinking and behavior. IMO if someone hates something the solution isn’t punishing them (unless they act out violently against someone via assault or murder) it’s educating them, which is where the Church and the Gospel come in. But the government thinks the answer is in making more and more laws to stop people thinking this or saying that or doing this or that and in the end we won’t be able to do anything at all without government say so. Political government is not and never will be the answer.
Post a Comment