Wise words from a comment in a previous post:
Listen, ye fools in the church, if God reconciled you to Himself by the blood of His Son, why then can't you get reconciled to one another? What? Is your will (It has to go my way), authority (I am a minister and no one tells me what to do) and money (I know how to manage it better than you) more important?
Stupid ministers, who don't know that if you want to contend with one another you have to please the General first (Christ; 2 Tim 2:4), play by the rules (the law; 2 Tim 2:5), and participate in the fruit production (the fruits; 2 Tim 2:6) if you want to get your rewards.
23 comments:
Can you imagine a COG group wanting to reconcile with Bob Thiel or David Pack? What a nightmare that would turn out to be.
Here is the basic problem: The people who are members of the Armstrong churches take HWA at his word that God was working through him in the first place, that there is one "true" church, and that his Radio Church of God, later Worlwide Church of God, was it! Further, there are assumptions that there must then be one true splinter. Each ACOG assumes or teaches that they are it.
Let's unpack that!
I believe that God inspired the verses regarding Gamaliel, found in the New Testament, for a reason. I believe that God inspired the example of the Tower of Babel in the Old Testament for a reason as well! I believe that God inspired the words about false prophets in Deuteronomy for the same reason. These are criteria God gave us so that we could properly discern, do our due diligence so to speak as we establish a pattern for our lives.
You also have to ask yourself, would God allow His truth to be largely lost for 1900 years, especially after the coming of the Holy Spirit on the Pentecost following Jesus resurrection? That conclusion is almost blasphemous! How could HWA even make such a contention?
HWA taught that God had gifted the COG with the proper understanding of end time identities and prophecy because the COG knew and kept the restored truths which God had revealed to him (HWA). That argument failed in 1972-75, possibly in the next 3-5 years has now failed for the last 50 years, and the science of dna has proven that the identities assigned by HWA are not even remotely possible! By HWA's own words, the failure of those prophecies means that the restored truths were also wrong! He formed a logical construct linking the two together, literally proving, over time, that he was wrong!!!
HWA enumerated a set of "proofs" by which one could allegedly establish where God's church was today, carefully syncing them with his own church, while eliminating all other Christian churches. Any good advertiser or salesmen must have his "exclusive", or at least make it appear that he's got it!
What if next Pentecost, all of the ACOGs suddenly reunited? What then? What if their "total eclipse of the heart" morphed into a sudden "change of heart"? There remains dna science, the litany of false prophecies, the bad fruits produced by the different ACOGs, the history of virtual worship of an individual who at best did not really understand end times prophecy, the corruption and graft in fiduciary matters, and the pattern of using "the law" in a karmically unbalanced way (to hurt others). Perhaps it would be good for such a reunion to take place. The leaders would really not know what to do with it all, and would once and for all prove that God did not have anything to do with the Armstrong movement in the first place. They'd fail again. Some call these leaders "wolves". I call them leopards. Still predators, but ones who cannot change their spots!
BB
A good run down BB and I agree. People are trying to find some purpose yet we know that Herbert Armstrong, being the hard working and charismatic person that he was, simply built up a man made system. It succeeded for a while but the weight of contradictions and outright lies could not be ignored.
In the religious wars, stupidity fights stupidity. And stupidity always wins.
They are all let by false prophets who worship and follow a false prophet, HWA. If they all got back together look at how many "top men" would lose their jobs and have to work as door greeters at Walmart.
BB @ 2:00:17 well said BB. Your comments about the 'Truth' been lost for 1900 years is blasphemous, nailed it. Simply preposterous indeed. Their own theology works against them. There is no going back for this crowd to the glory days, folly. Jesus Himself has qualified us to salvation as we read. We are saved by a holy calling not by our works but by His grace as is written. Have been watching a history series on early European British and Celtic history. Utterly destroys BI. Another preposterous claim by this movement. This movements leaders are leopards who will not and wont change their spots. Cheers.
Great Observation: “If God reconciled you to Himself by the blood of His Son, why then can't you get reconciled to one another?”
Seems like the COGs die by the Christian concepts they at best ignore, or at worst reject.
“Reconciled by the blood of Jesus” is one in a long list of Christian concepts that the unabridged record of the COGs demonstrates little interest in or use for … presumably because their record is so heavy on teaching that Armstrongites are specially reconciled to God by keeping the Sabbath and Holy Days … not Jesus.
Armstrongism erroneously relegates “reconciled by the blood of Jesus” to the status of sappy Protestant emotion lacking in biblical substance.
This Passover season, the COGs will devote a lot of attention to the first Passover and the law but there will be little shine on being reconciled to God by the blood of Jesus; redemption is not likely to be discussed, and adoration of Jesus as Savior or mention of the beautify of his sacrifice will be scarce. Forget about celebrating the resurrection.
It’s fitting, poetic, and just that what divides and destroys the COGs is what they don’t value in Jesus.
“Why...can't you get reconciled to one another?”
There are many WCG splinter groups led by spiritual and financial fraudsters. None of these fraudsters want to submit to, or tithe to, any of the other fraudsters. Some of the fraudsters, such as Gerald Flurry and David Pack, are downright satanic. They need to repent. Nobody needs to put up with them or try to get along with them. All these fraudsters need to be avoided.
There's moral class differences in the church, and just as Cain killed Abel, these groups don't get along. It's always 'my group right or wrong,' with the morally challenged persecuting their betters.
The splintering is a good thing. Some hate it since it means fewer members to victimize.
One of those men in that pic of men could have been Mr. LaFrance along with a few of his permissive friends.
And was the small team of the LaFrance friends expecting all those other fellas (in the example pic) to warmly accept the ghastly, odd, numbskull narrative forund in Book Of Enoch?
Were they all supposed to reconcile the inclusion into COG by-laws of bad-bunny-bad-angel-watchmen (of the male gender) floating down here to physically mate and perform coitus with human women, who then bore hybrid angel/human offspring?
I once stood in those lines myself, until I stepped back & found another group who at least prohibits promoting the knuckleheaded ideas in Book Of Enoch.
But before stepping "out of line", many of us were expected to warmly embrace the guy who pushed Book Of Enoch via the chatty, chummy, fellowshipping.
Was Mr. LaFrance's hierarchical leader continuing to warmly embrace another previous leader who promoted errors in church literature?
Why did a big pow-wow occur over Meredith's literature errors, but LaFrance's Enoch errors were something everyone had to tolerate & warmly reconcile with?
Why is it a major problem that different Church groups exist ? For in the existence of different groups lays protection. The fringe elements of Pack not so much, but the larger groups do offer protection from apostacy and Tkachite attacks and plans.
It is a well known reoccuring strawman's argument to complain that the groups should be joined as one. To stir naive brethren up into a frenzy of wanting one group.
Yet in 2026 the groups have been seperated longer than they were ever together in WCG or RCG.
Different cultures exist on the different COG grops, different social traditions have been established over the decades and different training paths. Some COG groups have well established youth training programmes developed in the 1980's others have not.
One group is only ever desired by secret Tkatchites.
What crap off deceitful men who position themselves in the pulpit. Faithless men who are nothing more than actors.
People who have risen in a corporation are less willing to see their group merge with another out of fear of losing their hard earned position. When Dow Chemical bought Union Carbide then Dow Chemical merged with DuPont, a lot of executives were forced into retirement. Churches leaders don't want to see their group merge with others for the same reasons corporate executives don't want to see their companies merge with other.
This comment was in reference to the UCG-COGWA squabbles, men who should know better since they are the major offshoots of the WCG tree. I agree with a couple of comments above about some ministers being totally unreconciliable at this time and that the splintering was for our good but that doesn't change our accountabiity to Christ.
When Elliott approaches Weston and Weston turns him away from his high chair, the sin falls on Weston. Same with members who try to reconcile with their pastors. If the pastor says, "Well..., I don't know..., you were like this years ago...., I don't trust you...., tell me what you've learned..., where are your fruits? (not realizing that the fruit is staring him in the face when the member makes an attempt to reconcile), there is nothing we can do when a minister holds a grudge and requires a member to walk a tightrope to impress him. Christ will have to judge this in time. In fact, the UCG/COGWA split was His judgment manifested. Next up is the great trib where they won't be able to hide anymore.
Right, these conditions were predicted to happen. See Dan 12:7 and Rev 3:16. If you sin and don't repent, out you go. The body begins to suffer, the devil enters in, men become delusional, the truth gets watered down, so everyone turns to the secular or immediate surroundings to find peace.
Cain killed Abel and Enoch was taken up to the sun (the Sun of God) after 365 years. That's because there are 365 days in a SOLAR year. A day for a year.
The orthodox groups are even more divided. God is clearly not in them either.
If Dr Bob Thiel accepts his African Conn men and witches - he'll tolerate anything, so no surprise about him accepting the ogran beasties talked about in the book of Enoch ( Terry Lafrance)- his wife's scowl was probably Harry Potter spells directed at you my friend.
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Totally agree 7:35.
When you fart in the elevator, you must also smell it yourself. These guys have apparently never learned that.
The only way for all church members to be reconciled together, is to get rid of all the ministers and leaders. I have had several people say that before years ago, and it is still true.
Avoura, you can't get rid of them because they are a part of us. What needs to happen is for them to get weakened financially and become less dependent on a head office (and more dependent on the people they serve directly) because, right now, they instinctively put themselves and the business office above God. You can feel it when you are in a room with them. Office work comes first. You are beholden to the one who employs and pays you. They are too stupid to not understand that they have a duty to stand by the brethren in legal matters, not stand on the side of the business office. The business office isn't the government of God. It is Christ who is the Head. And He doesn't play favourites or show respect of persons the way they do. If you pollute the government of God with your perverted and biased judgments, guess what? The kingdom is taken away from you, which is what happened when COGWA split from UCG, soon after UCG botched my case horribly.
I caught a high-ranking elder blaspheming once. So I brought it to the attention of other elders. You can guess what happened. The ministers will find a way to condemn the lay member when they think long and hard enough about it. Look at the famous Simpson trial. The longer you have to manipulate and play with the evidence, the more doubts you introduce to judges, juries and witnesses' abilities to arrive at the correct judgment.
Satan preys on our double-mindedness to get us away from the facts so that he can turn the guilt away from an elder and put it on the lay member, to scapegoat a brother in other words.
Far worst goes on than blaphemy. Far more church members live decent and honest lives than the ministerial elite. That rule of thought was established in the 80's and as far as i'm concerned still stands to this day.
You will find God's spirit amongst the members, especially during Tabernacles. You will struggle to find it amongst the elite. They spend Tabernacles wrapped up in the latest political wars, struggles and power plays.
Holy Days are their showtime. They may not dress as the Jerusalem Temple leaders did, with staffs and long tassles to parade to the Temple but the attitude amongst too many is exactly the same.
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