Dennis Muses on the loss of common sense

The Titleists

You can't be a Church of God leader, at least among the more ego centric ones, without a title.  It has to be a grand title.  The New Testament is populated with Apostles and Evangelists but we generally have to guess at just who were those below the title of Apostle .  Some were made this and some were made that , but Apostle is the one you wanted .  The Apostle Paul wanted it so badly, he made himself one and aside from "Luke" calling him one twice, Paul calls himself an Apostle the other 22 times in the New Testament he is called on.  Since he "conferred with no man," about everything that's evidently the only way he was ever going to be called an Apostle.
 

But the Church of God Gurus take it all up a notch or two.  Mr. Joshua C. Pack started out, if my memory is not failing, as "The Watcher."  He quickly graduated to Apostle out of fear of what to do should an Evangelist come into his sliver and outrank him as a mere Pastor.  From there it all started to go south with "And yes brethren, I am Joshua the High Priest as spoken of by the Prophet Haggai."  Ridiculous stuff of course, but entertaining and will provide Mr Pack with years of crow to dine on no matter what he thinks is merely off in "the timing."
 

Gerald Flurry is not just a prophet, he is "that Prophet," which of course he isn't.  Ron Weinland and Laura are both of the Two Witnesses of Revelation.  I suppose we're still waiting on someone to announce, "And yes brethren, I am Christ," but we'll have to see.  Title taking is probably one of the more childish and ridiculous traits of these one man shows in religion for which Christianity is taking such a beating over.  In this area where I live, SC, it seems that the more ignorant one is as a preacher who preaches because "I stopped drankin" the greater the title.  Most stop at Evangelist and have yet to meet an Apostle here in Greenville.  I know they are out there.  Only in the Wildworld of God have I ever met prophets, priests, Joshuas, Watchers, Witnesses numbering two and Apostles.  In my Presbyterian background, "Mr." or "George" did just fine.
 

It's been a fascinating watching Dr. Bob Thiel come on the scene in his own mind.  He claims to be a prophet.  While I see him as struggling as a teacher, much less prophet, he is awesome in his own mind, even though he isn't. 
 

In an interview with my friend and editor of The Journal, Dixon Cartwright, the leadership of the Living Church of God, from which Bob bolted noted the following when Bob endeavored to explain some things to them on his authority.
 

"In his recent letter to Dr. Thiel, Dr. Meredith said he can't remember saying anything like that, and, besides, October 2008 was only a month after he, Dr. Meredith, had suffered a stroke.


"That you would take anything that I said in that time period and try to use it is not right," Dr. Meredith wrote. "I do not ever remember saying anything like that, and I can assure you that I have never thought you might be a prophet!"


Dr. Thiel said an E-mail he received from Dr. Winnail dated Jan. 7, 2013, prominently mentioned "prophet," as follows:


"When we made comments to you that 'you may be a prophet' (and that could include some point in the future) that was to be kind to you."
 

Dr. Thiel said the LCG leaders' denials of their speculation that he might be a prophet are inappropriate.


"Their improper denials should be shown to be that as opposed to giving the impression that I dreamed things up."
 

Aside from own view that Bob has dreamed and does dream things up, as do Flurry, Pack, Weinland and others, I fully understand Dr. Winnail's comment of "being kind"  to Dr. Thiel.  I have had to do that myself in the past when , as a pastor, I sat in the living room when others wanted to reveal "one more thing me" about them.  One fellow got up and went to the closet and brought out his hooded robe with references to Revelation sewed all over it.  He also was a prophet and wanted me to know it.  I was not comfortable of course with his attending services but was "kind" to him.  I guess I wasn't kind enough because as I tried to leave he blocked the door and raised his fists at me.  I guess he was not pleased even with my being kind.  He said,  "I know karate!"   Huh?  Fortunately I had just come before visiting him from my brown belt karate class and it might be nice if I could just pass and go down the stairs on my own power.  We just starred at each other for that long moment and he let me pass.  When I got to the bottom of the stairs, he went bonkers and I left the building.  It was the only chance in life I ever had to kick the ass of a Prophet.  Being "kind" to some members along the way was a skill with the only other choice being confrontation and division.  I was told we must stand when taking passover as the Israelites did.  I was told I must use the Spotlight (Illuminati) expose' stuff for sermons.  I was told lots of things I MUST teach the church in my tenure as pastor.  Trying to be kind, balanced and preserve the fake unity of the church was not easy. 


I always chuckled within when the Church sang...'We are not divided. All on body we.  One in hope and doctrine. One in charity..."  Uh huh.   No church can sing that with a straight face.

 

At any rate, most of us are familiar with Bob becoming a Prophet in his own mind after being given "a double portion" of God's Spirit when asking for a mere anointing for a minor health issue in Charlotte.  Of course, when one is looking for proof of God's divine favor , it is always readily available.  I knew a massage therapist once who solved all of lives questions by saying, "If I see three yellow trucks on the way to work, I will know the universe is telling me that ____________ is what I should do, where I should go or what I should say or be."  Of course, there were always just 3 yellow trucks on the way to work .  Trucks 4-12 were filtered out of the equation.

 

Bob Thiel is no prophet and if he thinks he is one, no one will listen to anything he speculates on.  It is all speculation after all.  COG ministers are speculators and when you throw in a little Gospel, Revelation and Dr. Good, you can title yourself up and receive tithes evidently.
 

Bob Thiel is NO Prophet.  Let me illustrate.

Isaiah 1

New International Version (NIV)

1 The vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem that Isaiah son of Amoz saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

Isaiah 6

New International Version (NIV)

Isaiah’s Commission

6 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple. ² Above him were seraphim, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. ³ And they were calling to one another:

“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord Almighty;
    the whole earth is full of his glory.”

⁴ At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke.

⁵ “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”
⁶ Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. ⁷ With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.”
⁸ Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

Jeremiah 1

New International Version (NIV)

1 The words of Jeremiah son of Hilkiah, one of the priests at Anathoth in the territory of Benjamin. ² The word of the Lord came to him in the thirteenth year of the reign of Josiah son of Amon king of Judah, ³ and through the reign of Jehoiakim son of Josiah king of Judah, down to the fifth month of the eleventh year of Zedekiah son of Josiah king of Judah, when the people of Jerusalem went into exile.

The Call of Jeremiah

⁴ The word of the Lord came to me, saying,

⁵ “Before I formed you in the womb I knew^[a] you,
    before you were born I set you apart;
    I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

⁶ “Alas, Sovereign Lord,” I said, “I do not know how to speak; I am too young.”

⁷ But the Lord said to me, “Do not say, ‘I am too young.’ You must go to everyone I send you to and say whatever I command you. ⁸ Do not be afraid of them, for I am with you and will rescue you,” declares the Lord.
⁹ Then the Lord reached out his hand and touched my mouth and said to me, “I have put my words in your mouth. ¹⁰ See, today I appoint you over nations and kingdoms to uproot and tear down, to destroy and overthrow, to build and to plant.”

Ezekiel 1

New International Version (NIV)

Ezekiel’s Inaugural Vision

1 In my thirtieth year, in the fourth month on the fifth day, while I was among the exiles by the Kebar River, the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God.

Micah 1

New International Version (NIV)

1 The word of the Lord that came to Micah of Moresheth during the reigns of Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah—the vision he saw concerning Samaria and Jerusalem

Nahum 1:1

New International Version (NIV)

1 A prophecy concerning Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkoshite.

Habakkuk 1:1

New International Version (NIV)

1 The prophecy that Habakkuk the prophet received.

I believe we get the point.  On the other hand, Dr. Bob  gets info from the Internet like any of the rest of us can do.  He doesn't really hear the voice of God or would ever dare to say "God told me to tell you...."  He sees no visions and if he did he should know better than to tell everyone about them because what little credibility he has would go down the tubes.  Visions and voices are not well received in the 21st Century.  Not that Dr. Bob does not have dreams.  He does, and he does take them as God like in origin at times but only gets bits and pieces of truth.

"I did have one dream several years ago that seemed to be from God," he said, "and events subsequent to it have confirmed at least parts of its validity."
Bob Thiel to Dixon Cartwright

Dreams that "seem" to be from God are dangerous.  I'd prefer a God that woke me up and said, "Ok, look at me and go get ten witnesses from Channel 4 and a camcorder."  Bob is being silly which is not a good trait for a grown man who wants to be taken seriously. Bob said he "prayed about" getting a sign and he prayed about being a prophet.  Dave Pack was so impressed with how hard they all all prayed at HQ about last summer being The Great Unification on August 31st, it could not be wrong.  We know how that worked out for Dave.

Hey!  I can't find Pizza Hut...Call the Europeans"

 

 

When asked about specific prophecies he had made which may have come true, Bob notes...

"Two come to immediate mind that possibly push the envelope a little bit," he said. "One, I wrote in my 2012 book that it appeared that the United States was having problems with its GPS [Global Positioning System] system and that it was possible that it may decide it would need to rely at least partially on Europe's Galileo system."


When Dr. Thiel wrote that, the U.S. Air Force was denying it would ever rely on the European system, he said. Yet it was soon reported in the news media that America would make use of Galileo.

Sending in marines


"Another was when Julia Gillard was elected prime minister of Australia," Dr. Thiel continued.
 


"The day she was elected I posted at cogwriter.com that I felt (I feel that's whimpy prophecy) that she may do something to cause China to take a closer look at Australia for the possibility at some point in time, perhaps taking it over militarily or somehow being part of the removal of the government in Australia.
 


"And then that happened when President Obama and Prime Minister Gillard made an agreement to put troops in Darwin, Australia. They put marines there."

Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, thanks for playing.  In my world, that is Internet reading and speculation just as millions of other Internet readers can do.  No visions. No Oracles. No Word of the Lord.  Just Internet reading and speculation.  More silly stuff.  We all here on Banned predicted Dave Pack would not unify the Church last summer.  I guess we are prophets too.  We predicted Ron Weinland was not only not one of the Two Witnesses but would probably go to prison for a time.  We predicted Dave would never apologize to his church for speculating and putting them at great risk of ridicule.  It's all about the same.  I predict economic chaos in the first half of 2014.  I predict the dumping of the dollar by China and Europe.  I predict a cold winter in SC but then again so did the Farmer's Almanac.
 

Dr. Theil would never dare to say that what informs him is God himself through voices and revelations, oracles and visions.   That would be the end of his meager work right there.  Dave Pack on the other hand is anticipating the Voice of God speaking to him and his members directly in the near future.  Group schizophrenia is not a good thing and never ends well.  It's not "Good News."
 

Dixon went on to ask Dr. Bob...
 

The Journal wondered how Dr. Thiel receives his prophecies. Does he hear things? Do thoughts pop into his head? Does he have visions? Does he do automatic writing? What is his prediction-receiving system?


"Just prayer and study," he said. "I do not claim that I've heard voices, if that's what you're asking."
 

"I would say that I pray daily, and one of the things I pray would be related to Proverbs 3 verses 5 and 6, to trust the Lord with all your heart and not lean on your own understanding and in all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your paths.


"So I pray about what I'm going to write about, and then I write."
 

I write without praying first.

 

Sincere prayer and study  does not qualify one as a prophet if there is such a thing in reality to begin with.  I prayed my heart out in times past to "be used in the Work,"  "be a good pastor to folk.  I prayed as a teen for God to please show me the true church and to please accept me to Ambassador College.  All those prayers were answered to my harm.  My experience is that one finds the answer on has preselected by hunting and pecking one's way through the Bible for assurance one is on the right track.  Wrong train.  The Old Testament prophets failed big time in their prophecies as did the Apostle Paul and others in the New Testament with their views of how short time was for them.  I'm sure they prayed about it and studied "the scriptures" for their views. Nothing new under the sun for the past 3000 years in prophetic meanderings.  It's what humans do to encourage themselves about what's going to happen in the unknowable future.  It also mucks up the present.
 

The Journal asked Dr. Thiel for any predictions he'd like to mention for 2013.

"Well," he said, "other than the Great Tribulation cannot happen [in 2013] and despite the fact that one Church of God-related blogger thinks it might, that would be one off the top of my head."

 

Bzzzzzzzzzz...thanks again but prophecy is not telling us what cannot happen.  You have to tell us what WILL happen.  That off the top of your head?  Can't you do any better than that?  "Off the top of my head, saith Isaiah,  Assyria is going to kick our ass if we don't repent."?
 

To conclude.  Bob Thiel is not really any kind of Biblical prophet.  Dave Pack is not really an Apostle nor for sure is he Joshua of Haggai.  Ron Weinland and Laura are not really the Two Witnesses nor is Gerald Flurry "that Prophet" of Malachi. 

 

 

Someone needs to take their Bibles away from them for one year and not pray about anything anymore so hard that they finally see what they want to see and get to be what they want to be.  It is good entertainment but it can prove devestating to the lives of sincere folk who get snookered by the God hauntedness of it all. 

   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 





Why Fundamentalists Cling to Genesis 1:1

Why Fundamentalists Cling to Genesis 1:1

Believers and nonbelievers alike often come to this site to ridicule and/or condemn writers they disagree with. If the scoffers on both extremes of the spectrum hang around long enough, they can see that among us there is a solid core of commenters who cordially accept other views than our own. We do try to reach out to the confused, and we often recommend our own viewpoints. We just don’t insist that everyone else should adopt them. We acknowledge that the important thing is for each of us to find a place to stand on solid philosophical and psychological ground, a place that provides a perspective for viewing the physical and social universe that makes sense to the viewer.

To me a literal interpretation of Genesis makes no sense at all. The world looks all jumbled and surreal if I view it from there. However, I do not believe that people who see the world comfortably from that spot should be dragged away from it—only that they should be prevented from forcing our legal and educational systems to operate from their literalist perspective.

This short essay illustrates my thinking. It is expanded and edited from a comment I posted to another blog, The Sensuous Curmudgeon. 

Retired Prof 

Milton W. Howard, pastor of Kitchens Creek Baptist Church in Ball, LA, avers “The person who denies that ‘In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth’ must deny everything else in the Word of God. . . .”

This is the pithiest and most straightforward expression I have seen of why the scientific study of origins (tagged as “evolutionism,” “scientism,” “naturalism,” or “Darwinism”) terrifies fundamentalists so much. Genesis 1:1 is their fixed landmark, their homing beacon. It organizes existence for them.

While attending a [non-ACOG] religious college I had a few dates with a fundamentalist. When she found out I was skeptical about the existence of her god, the first question she asked was “How do you explain that tree over there?” The next one was “How can you ever love anybody?” It was about that time when we each began to find other people more attractive.

Mr. Howard’s foundational scripture serves the function Wallace Stevens claimed for a physical artifact:


I placed a jar in Tennessee,

And round it was, upon a hill.

It made the slovenly wilderness

Surround that hill.

Having been lost in the woods occasionally, I know the terror of having no bearings. Once when a snowstorm hid distant landmarks and made my immediate surroundings unrecognizable, I got completely turned around. I had to trust my compass to point me back toward my hunting companions. The route led across thin ice on a pond choked with button-brush. It was either struggle straight across and dread falling through, or veer off course and risk wandering for hours through terrain that had become grotesquely unfamiliar. I finally spied my friends in their blaze orange coats and made my way over to them. They seemed to be facing the wrong way. I said, “I don’t know where I am.”

One of them said, “You’re right here, at the beaver dam deer stand.”

I said, “I know that, but I still can’t recognize it. It’s like I’ve never been here before.” They led me to the river channel where we had left our canoe. Immediately the slovenly wilderness
surrounded that spot and everything made sense again.

So it’s not hard for me to see how fundamentalists would fear to abandon a comforting fixed reference point—the TRUTH of Genesis 1:1—considering that life in general can be way more bewildering than a river bottom in a snowstorm.

Living Church of God Smacks Down Bob Thiel, James Malm, and David C. Pack-- Again!

Poor Bob, James and Dave.  No matter how hard they try they just cannot poach members from the various COG's.  Dave's Great Reunification turned into the largest failure ever in Church of God history, right after William Millers numerous failed prophecies.  Bob Thiel's little personalty cult can't seem to move out  of his home spare bedroom studio with it's crooked bookcase. James Malm's legalistic mumbo-jumbo is the ultimate bastardization of the law which no one is interested in.

Now, Rod Meredith and LCG's staff are hitting back at Dave pack and Thiel warning members of deceitful men in their midst.

To Whom Do You Listen?

The Apostle Paul pointedly asked the Corinthian brethren, “Is Christ divided?” (1 Corinthians 1:13). Already in Paul’s day, the Church was being pulled apart by factionalism and personality worship or dislike. People were more interested in following their favorite minister, rather than maintaining a spirit of godly unity.

As the years went by, self-appointed leaders began to stray further and further from the foundation, as laid down by Christ and the apostles. Paul warned the ministers of his day to be careful of outsiders who would worm their way in to pervert the truth. The ministers were also to guard against deceiving themselves into thinking that they should be the focus of attention, rather than humble servants of God’s people.

Humbleness is certainly NOT a trait of any Church of God leader.  Never has been and never will be. Thiel and Pack do not have a humble bone in their bodies.

Next, the LCG staff and Rod call the message of Thiel and Pack "perversion."  OUCH!

...the problem of false ministers has been around since almost the very beginning. Even ancient Israel had false teachers who tried to deceive the people of God. The Creator sent true servants to prophesy against the religious perversions being taught, and to point the sons of Jacob toward the true worship of their God. “And when they say to you, ‘Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,’ should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” (Isaiah 8:19–20).

What's Rod's god going to do to Dave, Bob and James?

And what is the ultimate fruit of that selfish approach? God will spew such self-interested Christians out of His mouth! “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. Because you say, `I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked”

 Then they slap the unrighteous trinity dudes with this:

Today, there are men who call themselves “prophets” and “apostles” and claim leadership in the Church of God, yet by their words and deeds we can see they have forgotten Who it is that can cause water to flow from solid rock. Instead of humbly yielding to God’s word and to those whom God has placed in authority, they presumptuously modify God’s instructions and seek to draw a following.

 The threesome have "strayed wildly from the truths of HWA...." Ouch!

In this “Internet age,” it is easy to find dozens and hundreds of teachers proclaiming their own messages, claiming to follow Mr. Armstrong but in fact straying wildly from the truths Mr. Armstrong taught from the Bible. Some would have you believe that the Work is finished.   Yet Christ made it plain that He expects His followers to be doing what He did—preaching the true gospel of the coming Kingdom of God (Matthew 24:46). Others have corrupted the gospel by teaching a message “about” Mr. Armstrong, while distorting Mr. Armstrong’s actual message—thus mimicking the same error that took first-century Christianity off the track!

LCG warns members to not listen to these self-appointed guru's and their asinine messages:

We live in a world where self-appointed teachers are free to say and publish what they want, contrary to God’s word. But we have a job to do. What should our approach be? Solomon said it well: “And further, my son, be admonished by these. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is wearisome to the flesh. Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: fear God and keep His commandments, for this is man’s all. For God will bring every work into judgment, including every secret thing, whether good or evil” (Ecclesiastes 12:12–14). Let us keep our eyes on the goal as we carry out our responsibilities, listening obediently to the true Shepherd, Jesus Christ!