Why Does Living Church of God Have So Many Problems With Its Ministers?

We are to seek "wise counsel". Unfortunately many in the ministry have not been promoted because of their superior "wisdom", Biblical or otherwise. Nor were they given their titles and positions because of their overwhelming love and concern for the brethren they are supposed to be serving. They have their positions because they have demonstrated that they will support whomever signs their paycheck, even if that means going against Biblical principal, moral obligation, common sense, or even their own consciences. Their job is to defend the policies of the organization to which they belong, not necessarily to give sound, thoughtful, or even in many cases Biblical advice. They have proven that many of them are not equipped to give even the most basic financial, marital, child-rearing, or other advice, or to handle mental or emotional problems, domestic abuse, child abuse, addiction issues, or other serious problems people might have. Many have trouble answering even the most basic of Biblical questions, especially if someone challenges the corporate church position on a given topic. They can only resort to repeating the "official" position even if it doesn't answer the given question, or if there are Biblical holes in the argument. 

Many brethren have learned the hard way not to share too much personal information with the ministry not just because of the trust and confidentiality concerns, but also because the issue is completely mishandled the majority of the time, and in many cases, the problem is made worse by the "intervention" of the minister. Women, in particular, have learned to be very cautious about confiding any sort of marital issue, because most of the time the problem is never addressed and they are made the scapegoats. The pat answer is almost always that the female in the situation just needs to be more submissive, understanding, sexually available, etc. I have personally witnessed this being the case in everything from cases of domestic abuse to adultery, or porn addiction.

Rather than coming along side their fellow Christians as friends and brethren, gently leading and teaching by example, recognizing the gifts of others and equipping the body to work together and minister to one another, these men have been taught and conditioned to view themselves as some sort of superhuman spiritual gurus, who have all the answers no matter what the issue might be. In their arrogance, they do not know how to simply tell someone "I don't know" or "Let's find out together" or to realize when they are beyond their depth and need to refer the person to someone more qualified to help. Much rarer still will you hear any minister utter words like "I was wrong" or "I'm sorry".

I recently heard a minister in another cog group tell his audience he doesn't give out child rearing advice because he and his wife were not blessed with children of their own, and he had no personal experience to help him understand or relate to the issues people might have in that area. I walked away from that talk with a little more respect for this man, because though I might not agree with him on every issue, he at least showed that he had enough maturity to admit that he personally was not the most qualified person to give advice on this particular issue. This is a rare quality among cog ministry.

These men expect loyalty, trust, and monetary support from their fellow brethren simply because they were "ordained" and given a title by some other religious authority. Some even see themselves as modern day priests or Moses figures, the brethren being their personal "children of Israel". This however denies the Biblical principle of the priesthood of all believers, as well as the fact that we no longer need human priests to mediate between us and God. All Christians must test the spirits, and none of us is obligated to accept bad advice from anyone, minister or not.

Concerned Sister

August 8, 2019 at 1:29 AM

Living Church of God Members Still Are Not Seeking Counsel From Ministry

The above two pictures are from a Facebook page of a group that deals with spiritual abuse recovery from all kinds of churches and sects.

The first picture is of a child's coloring sheet that teaches children to unquestionably listen to what their pastor says and believe it.  That is what the Worldwide Church of God indoctrinated us all when it kept reinforcing that the ministry was a direct pipeline from God and God spoke to us through them. The ministry and especially top church leaders, were incapable of making a mistake, whether theologically or in daily counsel.  From YES lessons to the Bible Correspondence Course, it was all laid out in black and white as to what a person was to believe and to never question.

The second picture is of a similar vein in that church members are not to question a pastor on anything.  COG members were trained to never question the leadership, the ministry, doctrines, or anything printed in the myriad of books, booklets, and magazines.  To do so placed one's salvation in jeopardy.

Recently, there was an article up about how those in Christian churches who attend regularly are more prone to ask clergy for advice on certain important decisions.  The difference in Church of God ministers and ministers in many Christian churches is that many of those men are well trained in counseling techniques and have hundreds of hours of classroom work in counseling.  Church of God ministers, regardless of the affiliation, do NOT have training in proper counseling techniques.

Herbert Armstrong, Rod Meredith, and others regularly mocked and ridiculed therapists and psychiatrists as deceived agents of Satan, while touting the ministry of "god's church" as the true rightful heirs to counseling.  The counseling techniques used by many COG ministers have led to suicides, broken marriages, divorces, and even murder.

Living Church of God currently has issues with its members not listening to its church leaders. Scott Winnail is trying to reinforce in LCG members the need they should have to go to their ministers for advice.  Because, after all, any advice from a COG minister is directly inspired by God.

Given the abysmal track record of spiritual abuse in the Living Church of God, why would any LCG member ever do such a thing?

Regular Church-Goers Seek More Counsel: A new study published by the Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research highlighted an interesting finding: Among those who possess a religious affiliation, people who attend church services more regularly are also more likely to seek counsel and advice from their clergy concerning important decisions (APNORC.org, May 2019). These findings were true even among religious groups considering themselves more “liberal.” Regular church attendance appears to have a powerful impact not only on the way attendees view their ministers, but also on the degree to which their values are socially conservative in nature.

It is interesting how these recent findings confirm what the Bible has stated in its pages for millennia. Nearly 3,000 years ago, Solomon wrote, “a man of understanding will attain wise counsel” (Proverbs 1:5) and, “he who heeds counsel is wise” (Proverbs 12:15). The Scriptures also state that both “safety” (Proverbs 11:14) and wisdom (Proverbs 12:15) can be gained from a multitude of counsel. Being willing to seek counsel and advice is a hallmark of wisdom. Modern research shows that those who attend church regularly are more likely to include their clergy in such counsel—seeking feedback, advice, and direction. The Bible reveals that a willingness to seek counsel is something God desires of us—a key ingredient to growing in wisdom. To begin your journey of growing in wisdom, be sure to read “The Way to Wisdom.”—Scott Winnail

Unqualified to Teach: The Reality of an Embarrassing College Education for the Ministry

There are two terms I have heard over the years that always cut to my heart and left me with my own personal recognition that I made a very bad choice in my youth to go to Ambassador College and affiliate with the Worldwide Church of God.  You could not have talked me out of it at the time. But too late old and all that...   

The terms were:

"Ministurd"

and

"Embarrassing College"

The first, while giving me pause for thought,  I can dismiss personally for my own reasons and understanding of my own motives and care of the churches and love for the people. 

The second is simply true. I was not trained in any professional way in ministry and it was and is embarrassing.  My own education in ministry became the origin of my term "Mere Bible Reader" because that is how a minister was trained back in the day. That is how I was trained in ministry.  The teachers were mere Bible readers themselves as was HWA and GTA who took ministry off in directions they ought not to have gone in the first place. 

The ministry of the Worldwide Church of God and her daughters have never been qualified to teach the scriptures, pastor churches or be anywhere near a "helper of their joy" to its laity.  While sincerely wanting to be in ministry in my early life and probably believing I was being trained At Ambassador, which in my ignorance and not having grown up in it all, I honestly thought was a seminary that was spot on, in hindsight, I was poorly and badly trained in ministry. 

No one taught the basics, or probably even knew what these basics were, of:

Exegesis- to draw out extracting what is in the text the way it was written. Finding the true meaning and explain the passages of scripture from their context

figurative language- the moon turns to blood (meaning red). look for the literal meaning first before attempting to interpret it as symbolic.

Hermeneutics-The science of interpreting the written word, to find what the text actually meant. What God originally meant it to say. Eliminating what it never could have meant. This includes the whole field of interpretation. The use of tools such as a different bibles (word for word translations and paraphrase), bible dictionaries, interlinear, Greek word pictures and tenses, Concordance,etc.

Hyperbole- Ps.119:20 My soul is crushed with longing. Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple." An exaggeration or overstatement not to be taken literally but used to express another meaning.

Idiom- an expression of language or dialect of a people that is not understood outside its culture. A special terminology.

Isogesis-Reading into a text what isn’t there. Interpreting it by different rules than a consistent understanding from the Bible. Using a presupposition to arrive at the meaning, by ignoring the language and culture it was used in.

Metaphor- Jn.6:48 I am the bread of life or eat my body and drink my blood- a figure of speech in which one object is liked to another by speaking of it as if it were the other but in fact is not.

Parable- A figure of speech in a story setting to illustrate a moral or spiritual or heavenly truth. Taken from the peoples everyday experiences. Mt.13 The disciples asked why do you speak in parables. It has been to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given . The principle is (Isa. 6:9-10) to reveal to those who are soft in heart seeking truth , they will continue to be given more . For those who are hard of heart  it is hidden until they repent. In Mk.4:13 Jesus explains In understanding this first parable of the sower is the key to understanding them all.

Simile- Rev.1:14 "His eyes were like flames of fire." A figure of speech expressing comparison or likeness, terms such as like, as ,so. ____________________

http://www.letusreason.org/Doct26.htm

Add to this and in the realm of Higher Criticism, the actual origins of scripture, the problems of errancy in the texts, the concept of forgery nicely labeled pseudepigrapha, Midrash, Authorship issues, textural contradictions, apologetics, historical difficulties and what to do with good science done well along with many other real and important perspectives that need be addressed. 

There was nothing on mental health issues or how to actually and lovingly deal with them in the congregation.  They were mostly  a function of demon problems evidently. (I grew up going to see my brother in a state hospital every week of my young life so was very familiar with mental health issues as well as physical handicaps, which he had)

There was nothing on proper counseling methods and approaches to problems unless disfellowshipping and marking people counts or appealing to scripture on whose the boss in the family and who definitely is not. 

But is was not so. The bottom line reason was that the church was based on Herbert W. Armstrong's views of scripture and his only. HWA took unkindly to criticism or even a difficult question. He's not know the theological issue much less the answer or views to begin with.

 There was never a "come let us reason together " concept that didn't end in HWA coming out on top and the reasoner being marginalized.  Today PCG is based solely on Flurry's view of scripture and Pack's the same. Both are miserably mistaken and untrained in the scriptures. 

The reality is that both men were never trained in ministry and are qualified only, as was myself, as a mere Bible reader.  The term is not meant to be an insult but rather simply to reflect the fact that reading something does not qualify as a deep understanding of all the above concepts, problems and issues contained in it so one can rightly minister to others if that is one's desire and conviction as to where the truths of life reside. 

My training in ministry and that of all WCG ministers was this with some I simply can't recall:

Year One

Harmony of the Gospels-Roderick C Meredith

He read them to us and used the time to give sermons. He knew nothing about the origins, problems with, politic and history of their formation nor taught it.  It never would occur to him they were not as harmonious as he thought them to be. No discussion. (Well once I did ask a question but lived to regret it)

Speech 1

Glorified Spokesman's Club with grades

Old Testament Survey-David John Hill

Old Testament read to us like story time before bed.  We had to read the boring parts on our own and verify that we did. No discussion

English Lit Class

I have no idea what that class was about or what was being taught.

We did have a Japanese instructor once there who invited a guest speaker and ask us, and this is the real way it came out, "Preese, no crapping in crass"  We complied and did not crap in the crass. That came later during scandalous and drama filled  times to come in ministry. 

Music Appreciation-Lucy Martin

Required by HWA for our refinement I suppose. I had no clue or cared. Beyond boring

Principles of Living/ Missing Dimension in Sex

Don't get me started

Year Two

Second Year Bible

The Genesis Flood by Whitcomb and Morris

(This is the class Dave Pack refers to when he claims that he studied evolution in detail 50 years ago)

We had to outline the entire book.  No discussion, no questions and the teacher had no clue about the terrible science and geological insanity it presented and was already debunked in the real world of such topics.

World History-Roy Schultz

A terribly inaccurate review of world history as presented from Genesis 1 to Genesis 11

Speech Class

Glorified Spokesman's Club with grades

Chemistry-Doug Winnail

"Isn't creation amazing"  No chemistry learned, no homework thank God and it was kindergarten compared to my Hight School Advanced Placement Chemistry 

Other stuff I can't recall

Year Three

Third Year Bible-Someone

More Bible reading 

Science Something-Ken Hermann

World History-Dr. Hermann Hoeh

"Huh?"

Dr. Hoeh would simply start talking about the Bronze Age or something with no context, no background, no point and no reason I could perceive. I don't recall a final exam but if there was one I returned the favor I'm sure. 

Year Four

Fourth Year Bible-George Kemnitz

Epistles of Paul

Church Letters

Maybe Revelation

No discussion, no questions, just more Bible reading with commentary 

(George later became the Regional Director in Chicago and brought me from Minneapolis to Chicago along with Dave Pack . I was his man Friday and yes I mowed lawns, babysat kids and was chided for leaving the sauna or going through a door before him.  Miserable year and I got fired the first time in the "Great East Coast Rebellion" by association.  Should have stayed fired.

4th Year Speech

Only for those going into ministry "maybe"  This was decided by men of power later in the year and announced to the couple out of the blue in a public forum. 

Glorified Spokesman's Club with more grades.

Some other unmemorable classes

That's it!  Add to this weekly sermons and Bible studies by the untrained as well and I was good to go evidently. I moaned inside when HWA showed up because we all know what the topic would be again. I moaned more when Gerald Waterhouse showed up.

"Refresher Programs for Ministry"

Weeks long sessions being flown into Pasadena to hear the men of power speak to us all over again. 

It had potential to mature the ministry but fell far short due to really being brought out to check on the loyalty of the ministry and keep them all speaking the same wrong things on behalf of HQ. 

Leroy Neff spent four hours in one session on "Marriage" by reading and commenting on EVERY scripture on Marriage from Nave's Topical Bible. I felt he did not prepare properly! lol

We also started to talk about oral sex and the Christian but Burk McNair started by accidently saying that personally he found the topic distasteful and that was the end of it as we could not all stop laughing. No edict was issued when the RD of the French Churches noted that if they did the entire French Church would fall away. 

HWA brought up the topic of the Two Trees most times

Robyn Webber gave a talk on how we could keep our sermon topics on 3x5 cards in a file box. That was interesting...…….and well worth the 3000 mile flight to California all by itself

Bernie Schnippert preached at us in a somewhat arrogant tone and I noticed an ad in the LA Times on the floor by my feet of a Rock and Mineral Show in Long Beach that day.  I feigned potty break and  left for Long Beach. Great Show!

Refresher Programs were exhausting and just as shallow and compliant as Embarassing College was.

So many memories, so much time, so little training in ministry

Without common sense I'd have had no sense at all. 

(Thanks Mom and Dad)

Personal regrets? Yes, of course.  But that is the result of years of more drama and scandal in WCG than this boy could take. My own mental health suffered quietly through it and the conflict of my still believing it was The True Church run by fools was a difficult one to maneuver through in ministry.

 My coping mechanisms were not always the best of choices. I learned the art of "Ask and you shall not have. Do not ask and all things are possible" when it came to how to pastor in real life. There were many a "snowflake from heaven" as we called HQ memos I ignored simply because they were simply stupid and many a "Must Be Played in the Churches" tapes that I did not play and hoped it would not come up. I never felt people should drive as far as they did to hear a taped sermon no matter who gave it and the "must" part of "to be played" often puzzled me as to why it was so vital I do so. Tapes mostly were meant to keep the local church in contact with the leadership in Pasadena. They worried about that connection with the locals I am sure. 

All this to say that from my experience and perspective, having been there, the ministry of the Churches of God are not qualified in the actual practice of ministry and Biblical Studies much less the more practical aspects of proper  counseling and care in the lives of real people with real lives. 

Yes, I am an atheist and no, I did not just have a bad experience with "that Church".  I did indeed attend Embarassing College and I was not trained in ministry as I know I would have had I gone to Roberts Wesleyan Seminary, which I also had been accepted to, instead of affiliating with WCG.

The ministry of the splinters is personality based and the personalities are diverse and perverse.

I believe down deep most ministers under others understand this and simply have no alternatives left to them in life. Others adopt the ridicuous and various callings they personally perceive , such as a Dave Pack, Gerald Flurry or Bob Thiel and they are simply and badly mistaken.

Some few have gone in through the years and gotten a better education in theological studies and ministry. Often they don't survive well in their Church of God choice and most aren't used to replace those that do not better inform themselves but have "Rank".  That's just how it works. 

Personally I am grateful that I did not continue in any splinter but choose a new path , no not the one I would have chosen as a younger man, but one that served me better and kept me away from the stress and strain of being an undertrained and over indoctrinated "ministurd" and graduate of Embarrassing College, Pasadena, California. 

 Thanks for listening. 

Too long I know