Adult Sabbath School: "We weren't born of fornication..."

 Have settled into my new life experience here at Earthaven Eco-Village in the Carolina Mountains. Made the long haul this past week across the country from Oregon.  Went through a blizzard and had a coyote take out my travel partner's radiator. Spent a couple days waiting repairs out in Laramie, Wyoming.  Nice town actually!  

Home new home

Gary brought this to my attention so I thought I'd give it a little attention until he can come up with more COG drama and trauma. 

For a genuine historical and theological perspective on the Birth circumstances of Jesus a good read of "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism by John Spong or "The Birth of the Messiah" by Raymond Brown might be enjoyable this time of year.

Anonymous said...

This post is for that apostate babbler Diehl who blasphemously asserted in his Nov 30th post, under "CCOG, things..." (Nov 29), that God broke the law by committing fornication when He impregnated Mary.

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The reason this perspective came up is because when pastoring, a teen came up to me and asked me about why God not being "married" to Mary or she to it/him would be considered to have fornicated by any definition. Kids don't meander around with theological apologetics in my experience. They tend to go by what the church/Bible is plainly telling them not to do. 

Father Raymond Brown was disappointed in WCG's Dr. Ernest Martin for taking the birth narrative of Jesus , the star and such too literally and trying to explain it with Jupiter, Saturn and Mars conjunctions etc.  He thought Dr. Martin should have known better. 

Diehl is playing with danger by implying that Christ was born of fornication, since the Pharisees were put to shame by His resurrection from the dead. Not only that, he asserts that God doesn't exist, which makes him a double fool since the Pharisees at least believed in God's existence, even if they didn't believe in Christ.

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Nothing combustible here. That Jesus was born of fornication is a Biblical theme in John 8. So much so that Jesus goes bonkers in the text ending up yelling back at them "Well, oh yeah...well you are of your father the devil, so there!"  My translation.  The story of Jesus forgiving the woman taken in adultery is a later addition to the text and meant to send the message that Mary was forgiven so leave mom alone.  The fact that Matthew places four fallen women in Jesus genealogy,  Rahab the harlot, Ruth the Moabite, Tamar who dressed as a prostitute and seduced her father-in-law in Gen 38, and Jezebel of David fame.  Why?  The message Matthew needed to send was that no matter what you say about Jesus birth circumstances, God can work through any woman of any reputation He wants.  It was not exactly a denial of the circumstances.  Just an apologetic.  

Whether the Pharisees believed in God or not does make someone who does not a "double fool."  But yes, I do assert to myself that I find no evidence save by faith in God or Jesus as presented in the Bible. 

Secondly, Mary was impregnated in a divine supernatural way, not in the typical fleshly manner. It was a divine impregnation, not an act of illicit sexual intercourse. There is a difference here. It wasn't a case of one bearing an evil desire (lust) in order to commit a lawless act (fornication). It was a case of fulfilling a deliberate design (intelligence) in order to redeem mankind from its sins (goodness). God created the law; He doesn't break His own law (which is a higher law, Gal 5:23). Otherwise, you wouldn't exist.

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I'm not really concerned with the definition of fornication. I just know that what is wrong for geese in the world of the Bible teaching seems not wrong for the gander who came up with it. You do not really know how "divine supernatural way" works and can't prove anything about it. This is just Bible talk on your part. In reality it never actually happened as advertised but your apologetics as to how it all was and came about are just that, apologetics and you can prove nothing of it. 

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When a woman desires a child and goes to a semen bank to produce one, does the doctor commit fornication when he implants her with a fertilized egg, or is he simply a go-between? Does the woman commit fornication when she deliberately accepts the semen of a stranger into her womb? Or is it fornication if the doctor just mechanically inserts the semen alone without preparing a fertilized egg first? So how can it be fornication for the Godhead when all three decided to enter a human body? Who created and owns the soul and body? (1 Cor 6:19-20) Is Dietz saying that the holy Spirit illegally intruded into Mary's womb against her will? If so, why was Mary filled with the joy of the holy Spirit? Where is the sin since Paul says that fornication is a sin against the body? (1 Cor 6:18) Did God injure Himself or Mary by His actions? Is Dietz, like Job, accusing God of sin? Dietz, a former minister, not only doesn't know God, he doesn't know what the holy Spirit is, whether it is a person or if it is good (life-giving) or bad (fornication) for the body?

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The priests who actually wrote the Pentateuch  in the 6th Century BCE while on vacation in Babylon were not writing knowing anything about artificial insemination, so your point is moot. Stick with the Bronze age concept.  The name is Diehl.  I doubt God injured himself or Mary herself in the act. Perhaps a chuckle?  

Correct, I do not know God and according to my former dominators, I knew a lot about Jesus but did not know Jesus.  I grew up in the "give your heart to Jesus" and "Know God" etc, so it holds no fascination with me. It has no real meaning and no one has ever actually explained giving hearts and knowing Jesus works in real life. I found over 26 years that people are just people and don't change much internally unless their health is threatened and then not very often either. 

I am pleased that you have all these mysteries understood clearly and solved. 

Even your definition of fornication as an act of intercourse between the unmarried or gods is incorrect. In the infamous example of 1 Cor 5 the woman fornicater is married.

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A woman sleeping with the son of her husband is called "sexually immoral" and the text labels it as "incest" though it is not really technically. The woman would be committing adultery, the man would be as well in a rather obtuse way.  Boy is dad going to be pissed.  And too, I doubt it was really such a shock to the pagans as the text makes it out to be.  HWA , it is said, slept with his son's sister, and I also hear they weren't sleeping. 

The other fool who asked if God was married when He impregnated Mary doesn't know who or what God is when he asks that question. God isn't married to anyone. God is the great Husbandman who planted the first seed (Christ) so that the church could be married to His Son.

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The other person....   Not "the other fool."  You need, as a Christian to avoid calling other's fools if I read the NT text correctly.  However, I guess the OT gives permission to not be aware of that one yet if those that deny the existence of God are "fools."  They are not.  They are not God haunted, faith restricted and simple folks who need more than "He that comes to God MUST BELIEVE THAT HE IS...."  That is simply not good enough for the critical thinker in this world. For the go along to get along types?  Yes, perfectly understood approach. 

I do understand your rancor but please understand that I am neither faith restricted in my beliefs and observations nor into the apologetics necessary to get around obvious textural, historical and theological problems in the stories. 

And that teen that first asked me what seemed to be an obvious Goose/Gander problem in the story of Mary was not going to let me bullshit him.  I told him that was a very question. 

December 5, 2020 at 9:23 PM

Anonymous said...

Dave Pack, Apostle Extraordinaire, left you where you needed to be at the end of the Feast...even though it all failed, everything is still right on course!

In the recent news update for Restored Church of God members. This has to be the most idiotic thing I have seen that is trying to cover up absurd comments made by Dave. Where's the logic in such nonsense?

Remember back at Feast time when Dave told his few remaining followers that his creature "christ" was returning on the Last Great Day and his followers would NOT be returning home? Well, we all know Dave failed miserably in that prediction and JC did not return and his followers went home to continue to warm money to send to Dave.

Dave immediately started scrambling to reinterpret his interpretation. As Dave is incapable of making a mistake and his "god" would never lie to him he claims things are right on course.

Never in human history or in the history of the church has anyone received as much hidden knowledge as is being revealed by Dave.

Hence the need for this convoluted mess:

Greetings brethren! We hope those of you in America had as wonderful a Thanksgiving as we did here at Headquarters. Despite the world’s many troubles—controversy with the U.S. election, the worst year of Atlantic storms on record, riots, racial strife, and of course the worst global pandemic in over a century—we above all people have so much to be thankful for, no matter where we live.

We get to see all of the events Christ said would precede His return! We get to live in the time the apostles all spoke of and wanted to see! And God has uniquely revealed to us—His end-time little flock—many prophetic truths hidden from the world and even other eras.

 

Mr. Pack has learned more inspiring and powerful things over the past few weeks. You were left where you needed to be with the final Feast messages, but a brief note to explain that everything is right on course is helpful.

The nature of the “acceptable year” has clarified. Six verses show the year is contracted—that it is shorter than a standard year. And because we cannot know when it begins or ends, it must be contracted on both ends. But understand, this does not change the start date of the devour month! Much, much more exciting information could be added.

Endless reasons make extending our wait a year look scripturally impossible. Just the conditions referenced in the opening paragraph is enough to make this plain!

Take Paul’s words to the Galatians to heart: “Let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not” (Gal. 6:9). Keep watching!

Is it Time for a Better Path in the COG's?

 

Guest post:

Time for a better path

It is time for the members of LCG, UCG and COGWA to embrace a better path by truly following Jesus Christ's voice.

# 1 The power of good deeds.

The COG does not let its light shine. Although there are stellar individuals or ministers that care about the poor such as Daniel Botha or Wes White it is clear that most of the leadership does not.

The COG has all sorts of absurd rationales rooted in HWA's selfish greed to avoid helping others and doing good deeds. It is one of the major reasons they are so despised now and have such a bad reputation. But that doesn't have to be true for the members.

The membership should listen carefully to the voice of Christ,set aside the delusional rationalizations and traditions of their leadership that render the word of God of no effect, and do good deeds that honor God.

Matthew 5:14 Let your light shine. A city on a hill cannot be hidden . Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it give slight to everyone in the house. In the same way , let your shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

# 2 It is Time to be Better Stewards

Since the collapse of WCG in 1995 the offshoots have taken in at least half a billion dollars. What do we see for this huge investment? Unfortunately we have stagnant and dying churches. The COG talks about growth, but the truth is the churches are instead rapidly growing old and dying. Perhaps one of the reasons is the money is not going to do a work.

For example, to its shame COGWA only invests 10% of its resources in the public proclamation of the gospel and UCG is almost just as stingy with about only 20%.

One would have thought with all that money and time the COGs would now have a vast library of TV programs, books and other materials that are well researched and relevant for this generation. Sadly that is not the case for much of what has been produced (e.g., LCG's poorly designed materials). If you doubt this just show some of the church materials to teenagers and see how interested they are in them.

Christ told his disciples to let nothing be wasted (see John 6:12). But the membership of LCG, UCG and COGWA waste their time and money being involved in such unproductive churches. The members of the COG need to become better stewards, by carefully considering how their money is spent and vociferously demanding changes if it is being squandered or siphoned off. If things do not improve in your church then defund them, and donate to other biblical organizations that are bearing fruit.

# 3 True Repentance Needed

A mountain of evidence has come to light documenting the sins of HWA and the leadership of the former WCG and how the church treated people with brutality. One would think that this would have led to some type of public remorse and repentance on the part of the present COG leadership. Instead they ignore the plain admonition in Proverbs that fools mock making amends for sins (see Proverbs 14:9). If they are unwilling then the membership should humble themselves by expressing remorse, disavow any rationalizations for these sins, and make amends by treating people –especially the least among us -- with respect and love.

Aristophanes