Joshua C. Pack proves to all...
1) Understanding the meaning of the prophecy, starting with
Haggai 1:2,
automatically carries the
requirement of taking a position on it.
Oh it does not. But I have taken a position on it
and it isn't yours or I can reserve judgment and go by the fruits of ita all.
The first problem is to decide if Dave is correct on Haggai being a
prophecy about himself and RCG. I decide not correct based on what
the context and Haggai is really all about versus analogies anyone could make
about it. This cannot be avoided after one learns it.
I believe this means it can't be avoided after one
swallows the first supposition. Think about
this. The position of the remnant is that “the time is not come” to rebuild
God’s House. Are they right or wrong? I am
thinking about it. The problem is whether "God's House" was more than
the Temple of old. A church being "the temple" is a nice analogy, but it
is merely an analogy. The chance it is your church is zero. God
indicts their thinking, meaning they are wrong! Wow....not even into the first few sentences and already God
indicts those who don't see what has been said. And you know this?
Really? We sure got to "meaning they are wrong"
fast! If the prophecy is not now, the net effect
would be that God agrees with the remnant’s view. Worse, so should those
currently in God’s one Church because they now know the meaning of the
prophecy. Think this through. One does or does not agree with the remnant.
God does not—and we do not. The time is now! Let’s go further. Um sure ...fine. What if it is not prophecy at all
and therefore negating the leap from the remnant being right no matter if you
agree or not? How did we get to knowing the meaning of prophecy to
agreeing with your ideas about it? One in the same I suppose in Dave's
mind.
2) Directly related, why (or how) would God
command the remnant to “Go…build the House!” (
Hag. 1:8)—but not mean NOW? How could He mean some
undetermined
future year? Why would God tell them (twice) to “consider
their ways”—but not mean that they should do this now?
Well...they did consider their ways 2500 years ago and got off
their butts and rebuilt the temple. Try to imagine God saying,
“Consider your ways, but take your time. There’s no hurry. In fact, take years
to think it over—even though you have been out of My Church
for 20
years! You don’t have to DO anything
now.”
Now now..there you did it again. You leapt from the real
historical setting of Haggai into some strange and weird idea (where have I read
that before?) and negated the fact that the remnant 2500 years ago did rebuild
as admonished. You're the one making Haggai mean what it never
meant.
3) Also related, if God waited 2,500 years to reveal the
prophecy’s meaning (3,000 years when various related much older Psalms are
considered), is not His waiting done? Does His revealing it not signal that He
has reached the time to fulfill it rather than having reached a point one, two
or three years out? Well see...now there ya go
again. Who says besides you it is a 3000 year old prophecy about you and RCG
. Who says any Psalms actually relate to David C Pack and the Restored
Church of God? All speculation and wild ideas if you ask me.
4) Next, why would God wait longer? What would He wait for? The
remnant is absolutely ripe for deliverance. Dave likes that ripe for the picking concept and to that I
can attest. But Dave has his God waiting or not wanting to wait for
something based on an idea of what God is waiting for. What would He wait
for? Well, maybe He is done waiting for the Temple of Haggai's day to be
built and He's waiting for people to appreciate the history now over and a few
Messianic hopes expressed to come someday for the people of the Book? I
don't know. I'd like to ask God personally if He is waiting or tired
of waiting for anything but I bet I can't get a straight
answer.
5) Internally, and this is no small thing, God’s Church is truly
ready to expand the Work in a BIG WAY. The prophecy features
this as the MAIN PURPOSE of the remnant returning! Without the
prophecy’s fulfillment, this expansion would be delayed one year—or more! Why
would God notify His Church of the prophecy’s existence at the very same time
our staff is ready, our websites are ready, our literature is ready and even
God’s college is ready for more students if the prophecy were not
imminent? Why would God notify His Church if HE were not
ready? Well, perhaps because no real God is has
the same plans as Dave does? Perhaps the real God or power of the entire
Universe never heard of Dave or his staff? Maybe God thinks the
mega-church a few exits down from Dave, which could swallow up Dave's buildings
inside it's one building is more what God had in mind in Haggai??? Who
knows? But trusting one man who takes no counsel from anyone before he
breaks out in prophetic musings seems a lesson the COGs need to consider
well. How many examples of prophecy coming alive and then dying do you
guys need in one lifetime?
6) Related to this, the buildings on our campus can
very soon handle significantly more staff than we have now. This is
already true without the other two buildings scheduled for completion in the
late fall. However, this extra size works perfectly if the prophecy occurs this
year. So what? Buildings for God are a dime a
dozen especially in Ohio. Let's face it, no real God spent even twenty
minutes in his "House for God" in Pasadena, partly because He says He doesn't
live in houses, but that seems to be just a rumor. I'm sure God is thrilled to
know He has "staff" waiting to do his bidding. Well staffed illusions
infrastructure to support a delusion is no great accomplisment. Those
places are also a dime a dozen on the planet.
7) Also related, but separate, our infrastructure is
ready to receive and serve a much larger flock this fall! This includes field
ministry being ready, but also other things. Wow..you're just kinda making new stuff up as you go here to get
lots of points aren't you. You could combine points 6 and 7 under 6.
I'm not sure there are many sheep left in the COGs that want to be penned and
boxed in again with infrastructure but again, what do I know. God has not
revealed any of this to me. Landfills are also made ready way ahead to
receive stuff but I suppose the analogy breaks down using the concept of
landfills and what fills the land.
8) Maturing interest from many in the world due to one year of
explosive television expansion requires many more laborers in the ministry by
this autumn. Well that's fine.
Work with them, Get THEM to show up, join up and pony up. The average
COG member and church jumper is exhausted. Personally I think people are
far more skeptical of Televangelists or Telejoshuas than in the past. They
may not be as willing to part with their resources, believe everything one man
tells them about all things and join something where misery seems to be lurking
when not 100% in tune with the High Priest, but again...I could be wrong, but
this seems an old paradigm and one that has worn out its welcome in religion and
on TV.
9) The Restored Church of God is experiencing an AWESOME period
of growth and development at this time—in the runup period just prior to the
prophecy’s fulfillment. This is putting it mildly! To us, this is powerful
indication that we are on the right track for this year—that God is not only
pleased with His Church, but that He is helping it get ready.
Well nice try but lots of churches can say that
regardless of their message. Besides, everything is awesome with Dave so
we're not really sure it is the kind of awesome we think of when we hear the
word awesome. Perhaps some income and baptism or church growth and new
ministers info would be helpful in this regard? Awesome growth of anything
and the story of the rebuilding of the Temple in the 500's BCE may not have as
much in common as one thinks. Mormon Church growth is awesome.
10) If the prophecy did not happen this year, the remnant would
remain another year (or more) undergoing ever worsening false
ways. Worse off, they would have a commensurate shorter time to
spiritually recover before the Tribulation. Think worse condition, less time to
recover. Well see, now your just making new ideas up
based on some of the previous misapplied ideas in previous points. What's
another year in the whole scheme of eternity? And don't tell me to "think"
anything. I would like you to think but I'm not sensing much
success. If God is control of it all, I'm sure we'll all have just the
right amount of recovery time we need, no problem. However, if Dave is
anxious to get his own ideas going, I can see his frustration. Dave has
bills to pay. Besides, most of the other COG splinters are not all
that evil or have "false ways" getting worse. Personally I'm feeling it is
The Apostle Joshua who is getting worse, weird and strange, but that's just
me. He must inspire someone somewhere.
11) If reunification occurred next year (or any year after),
those with God’s Spirit would have one more year cut off from God’s Church. This
carries the potential for more to quench the Holy Spirit (
I Thes. 5:19) and lose salvation.
Boy..this hurry up so we don't lose recovery time and add to our
quench time thing has Dave by the seat of his pants. I still think it's
bills to pay and permanent stuff to be build to send the message Jesus is coming
soon.
12) The readers of the Haggai prophecy announcements (this is
#21) who believed them would be the most disillusioned and the biggest
candidates to QUIT everything if God did not return His people to one House
this year! This would work directly against what God is doing—directly
opposite His overall purpose.Well now Praise
the Lord! Finally an idea that is correct! Dave has drawn the Line
of Disillusion (and there is nothing wrong with being Dis-illusioned for
who wants illusions?) You bet your sweet bippy they are going to be
disillusioned in short order but that's a good thing. Dave is saying he
has to be right because if he is wrong you will become dis-illusioned with
his illusions. This would be progress in my world!!
13) Further desolation (
Hag. 1:11;
2:16-17) from God of the splinter “houses” would
practically wipe out the few remaining senior leaders in them. This includes
pastors and elders, all of whom are NEEDED TO CARRY OUT THE BIG WORK!
Now Dave...if God can raise up stones to fill in for
the Children of Abraham, He can find newer and better ministers and
members. Besides, the old ones are ruined by now and probably don't have
the energy to comply with your demands or sit long hours through your
rehabilitation sermons. Let them go peacefully into that night and return when
things calm down.
14) The onset of all future years would never come with
clarity—with any certainty! Would God leave thousands who are now aware of this
prophecy in such a condition? Hardly. Probably
better to say, "Would God leave thousands who have at least heard my ideas of
who I am and how I am spoken of in the Bible in such a condition?"
Sure, why not? Especially if they have figured out that
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in point one, you messed up the meaning of
Haggai?
15) Next, for those who will see the value of how to
pursue spiritual matters, there is this: After fervently seeking God about it,
not one reason the prophecy is off this year ever emerged in the minds
of even one of our 16 Headquarters ministers! I (we) have NEVER prayed about,
studied over, meditated on, fasted about and counseled with other ministers
regarding a subject more than this one—in fact no other subject is even
close! Oh Dave you nut. You know perfectly
well if those guys are going to keep their car , their paycheck or even a nice
house on faculty row to come, they will agree with anything you need them to
agree to. Michael Venish says you weren't real happy with him cautioning
you on the Joshua stuff or spending monies of others on things that send the
message "my lord delays his coming." Remember how you shook your fist in
his face and went bonkers when he tried to caution you?
16) Similarly, as questions emerged throughout our pursuit of
truth with the many details of the prophecy, so many of these details kept
coming clear as direct answers to prayer. And these were often immediate.
Invalid point. Anyone can expand an analogy to fit
their need. Besides, we have no clue yet if these clear and direct answers
are true. We're waiting to see if you are correct. And we don't have
long evidently. Maybe then we can decide just how clear and direct these
answered prayers were.
17) Recall
Haggai 1:13: “Then spoke Haggai the
Lord’s messenger in the
Lord’s message unto the people…” Haggai is the
messenger to God’s people, with what is an all-important
message
from God. Would not God make clear in such a unique message He describes as
“the
Lord’s message unto His people” the correct
date for action? What kind of message would it be if people did not know WHEN TO
CARRY IT OUT?
Dave, read my lips. the
people in the 500's BCE got the point from the real Joshua the High Priest
evidently and did as asked. They did carry it out just fine. All
this other stuff is just made up and speculative. Actually it is a
speculative waste of time but we'll see. Making scriptures mean what they
never meant never works out well when critically thought through.
18) Since the apostasy, God had not wanted the remnant back in
His Church, but now He does.And you know this?
How do you know what God wants? Oh...you just match it with what you
want and bingo...they match! He would first
reveal the remnant to His leader, then tell him how they would
return, and finally that He meant NOW. This was the order in which
these things became apparent. To
you....
19) Imagine God not revealing the year the remnant is
coming—but only the day and month. Vast amounts of time would have been wasted
by His leaders studying and preparing for something that was not imminent. Would
God put His Church in such a position? Vast amounts
of time has already been wasted by "His leaders" preparing for the ever
imminent. I wish the Bible never said "no man knows the day or the hour"
because some loon always says, "but He didn't say we wouldn't know the
year." Well hundreds of Joshuas in history have pulled that stunt over the
past 2000 years and been 100% wrong 100% of the time to date.
20) Of interest, God revealed to me during ELUL four
years ago my role as the modern Joshua. Oh
Elul you nut! Why not just say you were having a slow August and September
and got bored? It is not interesting in the least. Do you think some
God has to wait until Elul to speak up or mess the whole cosmic cycle up and
turn it all on its head? This reminds me of HWA grasping for an amazing
thing, other than the start of the tribulation in '72 and the Second Coming in
'75 by saying WCG picked up ad space in Readers Digest. Grasping,
straws and all that.
21) Also of interest, I and The Restored Church of God learned
about the New Testament remnant last ELUL (August). Let’s ask: Would
timing of when we were shown the prophecy not be tied to its unique timing of
fulfillment during the very next available ELUL? Gee, you may be right. Last Elul you think up some weird and
strange tale and claim special insights and titles which would automatically
lead to understanding this August (Elul) could be even more interesting!
Where I have been ! Clear as mud.
22) We might ask: does the DEVIL know the prophecy is on?
Shhhhhhh...not if you don't stop telling
everyone! For those who understand how the devil
works—that he counterfeits EVERYTHING God does—a variety of counterfeit
theories have recently appeared about how God is going to reunite His
people. Well maybe they are the real theories?
Maybe when one goofball comes up with a another weird or strange theory
another goofball has to match it? I think you are talking about diabolical
mimicry which is an old explanation as to why some ideas that are presented as
new seem so old. Should not the devil be
expected to do this at the time it would cause the most confusion? You will soon
see that most of these theories are coming from men standing on the wrong side
of this prophecy. Well duh...maybe YOU
are on the wrong side of this "prophecy." Maybe you have spun a
simple tale intended as Old Testament History with Messianic hopes into a really
corny fable? Remember when you said...
Even as a child in the Presbyterian Church, I never
liked singing Onward Christian Soldiers. It brought to my child mind white
robed zealots slashing and burning their way through the countryside giving the
heathen two choices...join or die. As I got older I realized that in
some parts of the world and in some ages that is exactly what the choices
zealous Christians gave the heathen. The heathen have their own rendition
of Onward Islamic Soldiers I am sure.
