Can Faith Be Proven?

Awhile back Apostle Pack gave it his best shot at proving God's existence with his bombastic and self assured outdated, badly restated, greatly glitterated , memorized but not studied, copied and plagarized from creationist lit long ago negated but nicely mistated.   His presentation was obliterated by Aron Ra leaving anyone with an interest in knowing if Dave knows what he is taking about, which he doesn't.

I have never seen a creationist argument out of a need to prove religious truths scientifically and with the scientific method, as they twist and manipulate it or don't even understand it, succeed.  The conclusion is already believed and the "facts" are used to prove what they already know and can't not know to be true because it is religion, which cannot be proven to begin with but dare not be denied.

 Religion is a function of faith not facts and as time goes on and on, the facts tend to obliterate that which used to be understood by faith.  Science well done has not once reverted back to faith.  Faith issues have often had to yield to scientific inquiry done well with good conclusions about the truth of a matter settling the matter with more details yet and always to follow over time. Is faith really just believing what deep inside you know or suspect probably isn't actually so?

"Ignor-ance is not only what you don't know, it's what you won't know"

Growing up Presbyterian,  no one said and not once did I ever hear a sermon on "prove me now herewith and see if..." or "Prove all things and hold fast to that which is good." They really had no big issues that needed that kind of attention. Is that really possible with issues of faith?  If I had, I would have wondered just how do you do that anyway.  Oh I know that archaeologists have tried to prove this or that event in the Bible but haven't done all that well and often these days, the opposite has been shown to be more the case. Cosmologist has show us just how insignificant egocentric humans are and those who do the hard work and study of human origins have laid the Adam and Eve myth to rest long long ago for those not threatened by the facts. 

Everything religious is taken on faith is it not?   "He that comes to God MUST BELIEVE THAT HE IS...."   Faith, as expressed in scripture leaves facts out of the mix.  Is that not the formula we find in Hebrews 11?

"Now faith is the substance of what we hope for . The evidence of things not seen."

Is that not the same as saying ...

"Now faith is the substance of what we hope is true. The evidence of things for which we have no evidence"?

In WCG I was assured I could "prove" God's laws of tithing by doing it and seeing if the windows of heaven did not open up.  Ummm......and ummmm.

There is not one conversation in the OT that I can prove in any real sense ever was actually spoken n by the person or even god that is said to have spoken it. There is not one person in the OT I can actually proved ever really existed.  I suspect the Priests of that God got together and said,  "Let's say this" or "Let's command that."   Well trained  archaeologists with everything to lose say no to Moses, Abraham, Solomon and possibly even David and that "we exaggerate and the Old Testament, as you call it, is a small cultic people giving themselves a large pedigree while in captivity."

(Israel  Finkelstein  Author of The Bible Unearthed, to me personally  sitting at a picnic table at Tel Megiddo where he is the lead archaeologist)

Who knew what God said at creation?  Who wrote down or knew the exact conversation Abraham had with Isaac alone before almost sacrificing him?  Who knew the words of Jesus, alone in the Garden with sleeping disciples or what Pilate's wife told him in private?  Who wrote down or knew the exact words of the long winded speeches of Stephen or of Jesus at the last Passover of which the other Gospels knew nothing?  Are these not what some author imagined they would say so he said they said it for effect?  It was a common writing style of the day. 

I can't prove that God actually said what I have been told all my life "He" said. And while it's right there in the Bible, surely we can't think that settles it really?  Maybe most do.  I can't. 

Does not "Prove me now herewith" and "Prove all things" really mean if you try really hard enough, you can reach the same conclusions and beliefs we already have come to for you in religion?  Is not this cart before the horse and formula for "Well, it sure didn't work for us" and being the reason so many lose their faith, like that's a bad thing.

Did not Paul say "Let us all speak the same thing," not the same right thing but "that there be no division in the body."  Is that the way to prove what is real?  

 It is God's privilege to conceal things and the king's privilege to discover them.

Proverbs 25:2

Aside from it being not just the privilege of the King but of everyone, what if the conclusions drawn thousands of years later are not what were expected of the King thousands of years ago?

Can you prove faith or any religious thought or belief?

 That's not the nature of Faith or Religion is it?

Just asking....

(And I'm not "trying to destroy your faith" and try really hard not dismiss Aron's  Epilogue to Dave's arrogant attempt to prove what he so badly didn't by noticing he has long hair.  There is not a COG minister or writer who could stand up to his grasp of "the facts")

I personally  believe, based on fact and hope perhaps, that humans are hard wired to be spiritual in their thinking. We have a sense of wonder and find ways to respect all we see around us and can't explain or couldn't at one time.  I still find awe and wonder in weather but unlike Bob Thiel, do not find it caused by the gods or their way of "trying to get our attention."  I find it to be high and low pressure facts. 

 To me, religion is what others, like a Dave Pack, Rod Meridith, Gerald Flurry  and all the other one man truth dispensers hope I'll believe of them. It is what others pour into your head. What to believe, where to be, how much to give, what thoughts to think. 

 Spirituality is an inside job and organizations hate those who have spiritual perspectives.  The spiritual are like cats who can neither be organized or herded into their seats.  Dogs, who pray, pay, obey and stay populate organizations. They fetch, sit, roll over and beg for more.  

Never thinking or ever really being able to come to proper conclusion about the absurdities their trainers like Dave Pack dish out because religious ideas can't really be proven and must be taken on some kind of faith until they no longer can be and the damage is done...

COG Leaders Who Cry and Whine About Being "Persecuted"

It is an interesting contrast to read the absolute putrid drivel coming our of the deluded false prophet Almost-arrested  Elisha, Elijah, Amos, Joshua, doubly blessed but not ordained, dream weaver, second witless witness and bitter disappointing "son" to Rod Meredith, Bob Thiel and the Chief Pharisee James Malm about how they face persecution for "boldly" preaching their messages of bondage.  Even United Church of God, Living Church of God, Philadelphia Church of God and the Restored Church of God cry about persecution and being constantly attacked by "satan."  these foolish men have no idea what persecution is as they sit in the warm safe homes in 100% safe environments which allow them to preach and print their daily piles of pig slop.

These lying fools do not know what real persecution is.  All of these men are weak little milquetoasts who cry at the slighted whiff of anyone disagreeing with them. "Oh woe is me, I am being persecuted. Oh what will I do?  Gary and and Dennis are making mocking me and called me a fool!  Woe! Oh woe is me!"

Contrast this to the Coptic Christians in Egypt today.  Last week two horrific bombs were planted in their churches that killed scores of people.  Hundreds were injured.  These people face daily persecution.  Real persecution, unlike the COG version of persecution. Then, one week later, on Easter day, they came out to put faith into action with a trust in God that was more important than personal safety.  Can you imagine any of the pissants leading a COG doing such a thing?  They would be cowering in their basements thumbing through their big thick Moffatt Bibles looking for some kind of new revelation that they can bastardize as new truth.

"I don't think the churches are any emptier, in fact they might be fuller," said Bishop Angaelos.

"But it just means people leave home knowing they are a target, but that doesn't stop them."

One Copt who gave his name only as John said he will attend Easter mass despite the threat of attacks.

Despite Bombings, Egypt’s Martyred Christian Church Celebrates Easter

Targeted for slaughter by the so-called Islamic State, poorly protected by the Sisi government, Egypt’s Copts are struggling to survive in their ancient homeland.

See story here

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Jesus Christ is Risen Today

Dave Pack: trickster god is sending a fake Jesus the first time around to deceive COG brethren

Dave has been preaching for a while now about Jesus returning twice in the next 2,000 years.  Jesus returns soon to cleanse and rebuild the world, which suffers after a great war, then after he is here for 1,000 years he will resurrect the rest of the saints and then the millennium will happen where Satan will be given a chance to come and deceive the entire world again.

Though be careful though.  God is going to send a fake "jesus" the flies around to deceive COG members after they have jumped ship to join the Restore Church of God.  Ever the trickster god, he is doing this deliberately to embarrass the COG members.

We actually never had a month like the one we’re having now. A couple of freak occurrences, way back, where a giant bunch of people came with us, kind of…in a cluster…confused our record, or it would be the most growth we’ve ever had.

But God is going to work with…He loves His people, and He chastises them. And it’s going to be horribly embarrassing to them—even the survivors—that they were in such terrible condition that God had to send the false Jesus, that would rock the world and sit in that church! No! Put him in the Presbyterian church! Make him a Methodist! Surely, he’ll sit in Rome, right? No. No…Because the fraud wouldn’t work for either of the groups. The one I’ve told you about this week, or the group I’m going to tell you about next week. It’s got to be extreme, powerful fraud, and at the same time, wonderfully help your people. But, oh, is it incredibly embarrassing.

Stephen Flurry, PCG "Dance Mom" gets in the "spirit" for Spring "Holy" Days

From a PCG source:

In classic dance mom style, pushy American parent Stephen Flurry gets into the spirit of the Days of Unleavened Bread by taking to Twitter to boast of his vicarious victory in Irish dancing by posting a tweet of his son Jude coming eighth place in a recent competition.   Stephen, “newly-revealed heir to the throne of England” Flurry posts the following:

https://twitter.com/StephenFlurry/status/852638327224381442

I wonder how many of the rank and file PCG members would be able to reconcile an activity like this during what is supposed to be a week of humble reflection through removing human nature and the spirit of this world which Herbert W Armstrong summed up in the word Competition.  

In the same week when PCG completed the purchase of a private jet and now Stephen Flurry’s son takes part in a regional dance competition, you have to realistically wonder where the heir-apparent’s spiritual focus has really been.

If this was an ordinary PCG member they would be on the receiving end of severe correction from the ministry for having a wrong focus during this pivotal time.

Anyway now that Prince Stephen has his own private jet perhaps Jude will lift his game and come seventh next time….

1 Cor 13:4 (NKJV) Love … does not parade itself…

Dave Pack: Thanks to Trump our members can go back to work and give more money

Everything about Dave Packs always descends back to his favorite subject, money  All money in the world belongs to God.  Because Dave is God's "chosen one" it is therefore logical that all money in the world belongs to  Dave and if all the money in the world belongs to Dave then that means all tithe money in ALL the various Church of God's belongs to Dave.  With all of that tithe money coming in, the quicker he can build his auditorium and student center.  When he accomplishes this then his "jesus" can return and have a stage to speak from and a dining hall to have his meals prepared in.

Now that Trump has been elected all Americans will soon be getting high paying jobs and therefore his members will now get more money due to raises and bonuses.  That extra money will be willingly sent into Dave so he can build his superfantabulous compound in Wadsworth.

Now I’m excited, because, obviously, God’s people can go back to work, and we’re commanded to go to work. So it’s going to benefit the Work. Not only will new people pour into the Work, as I’m describing, but a lot of people who are here are going to start getting jobs, who are un- or under-employed, and wages will start to go up. Taxes will drop—that will all benefit God’s Work on top of the growth. So the Work should begin to boom…we already see it is, but boom in a greater way than it did before. Now again, it means more isolation, which also fits prophecy.

But the IRS has been targeting conservative organizations. Banks are going to start opening up and lending more. I talk to a lot of bankers. They have guns pointing at them from all directions. If property values go up, it will benefit God’s people around the world, but I wouldn’t be surprised if our appraisals soon reflect millions more dollars of value in this campus—which was a long-range goal I had and said so, many times—simply because a little time passes, not because we built anything else. Which means the Work can borrow more if need be…But if the value of the campus were not going up, then you couldn’t do that…

Dave Pack: Donald Trump is the Herod the Great of the 21st Century

Dave Pack continues is spiral decent down into madness.  Notice his description of Donald Trump below.  Regardless of whatever your stance is on Trump, Dave Pack proves he is certifiably nuts.  Dave's stance is in sharp contrast to the unordained and self-appointed foolish false prophet of the improperly named "continuing" Church of "god." Apostate Thiel claims Trump is the harbinger of the persecution.  Trump will supposedly stop Elisha Thiel from preaching his asinine message to the world.  Since neither of these buffoons vote, their opinions are worthless and irrelevant.

Now, this particular president-elect, literally, is a builder. Arguably one of the greatest single builders the world has ever seen. He is the Herod the Great of the 21st century. He has employed more people…far, far, far and away—than all previous presidents put together—and probably tripled—and you could throw in the presidents, from the south, who were slave owners, if you want to call that employment. It wasn’t, it was slavery. So he understands how to build an economy.

When you think of eating and drinking, it’s the way he thinks. He sells his own steaks and wine. And of course, it means there has to be a good climate, because there is planting and reaping. But again, Christ almost, as it were, goes out of His way to describe powerful conditions in play in the economy that were not going to go that way if the fellow in there stayed—or if the woman who wanted to replace him and carry out his social legacy won.

Now, in the first 100 days, he has a whole series of things he wants to do. He has stated over and over again he’s going to do them, and all the people around him tell him he’s going to move big, bold and fast…And this is good for the Work in many ways…big—bold—and fast. He wants to take on Obamacare, which is great news for God’s people, but also for the economy.

You’ll see higher wages, and people, who are either un- or under-employed are going to find more jobs. He’s going to do some trade deals. Businesses are already reacting, because they know regulations are going to be suppressed. The IRS is going to get off of peoples’ backs. There’ll be enormous tax cuts. Seven categories for the average person will turn into three. Corporate taxes, at 35 percent, are going to crash to 15. They are among the highest in the world…

I’ll tell you in a minute why the promises he’s making—he’s going to keep, even though his enemies and the opposition in America is going to do EVERYTHING in their power to stop him. I think even the devil will try to stop him because he’s going to feed prophecy. Obviously, the danger for the brethren—all of you—is that you can begin to understand better why Christ said many will go to sleep. They’ll be unaware, or they’ll get, proverbially, spiritually, or even literally, drunken, because the world is going to go into a party-time the likes of which it has never seen.

When you have a mega-billion billionaire, whose name is splashed all over the world, he dwarfs the profile of any other president, probably, whose ever lived. These buildings all have his name. He’s “branded” like nobody’s business. He understands the world’s economy because he’s in it. He’s fearless because he’s walked into all kinds of banks and boardrooms, facing enemies, and every time, he takes them down…

He understands that lower taxes are going to drive the economy. He understands the EPA [Environmental Protection Agency] is crushing the farmers, and it’s crushing ranchers in the west. Most of you don’t realize the EPA claims control—on this campus—everywhere there is a puddle after rain, literally, and until that puddle dries out, the EPA does not give up its sovereign control of places where water pools. That’s how bad it’s gotten. He’s going to sweep that aside like a wind pushing away leaves—and he will do it.

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He lives in an environment that is so beautiful, he’ll be the only person to ever downsize into the White House. Think about it. He lives in a world of gold and silver and marble and crystal and magnificent rugs and quality materials—and people will identify with him…We’re not talking about an improvement in morality here, but there are a lot of people who’ve not had jobs…The last 50 years has seen it that way.