Dave Pack: “Everyone who has challenged me has either died, been seriously injured or has been eliminated from the work.”

It has been fascinating to see the mental breakdown of Dave Pack over the past few years.  This is not something that just appeared recently though.  Dave has left a trail of destruction in every church area he has ever pastored in.  Worldwide Church of God leaders knew what a sick man he was decades ago and did nothing but move him from one church area to another as members filed complaints.  No one ever had the wherewithal in Church Administration to remove him from the ministry.  It shows that the church had very little care for the members he abused.


The Painful Truth has the following two quotes from Ambassador Report 32 about Dave Pack on its page: The Devil and Dave Pack

From AR 32

Armstrong Follower Held In Murder of Daughter

On Sept. 20, 1984, Armstrong follower Lois Marie Elliott of North Tonawanda, New York was charged with second- degree murder. Police say that before dawn that day, the 36-year-old woman stabbed her four-year-old daughter to death in the child’s bed, knifed herself in the chest, in an apparent suicide attempt, and then telephoned police, saying, “I killed her.” Officers dispatched to the scene discovered the pajama-clad body of the little girl, Roxanne Elizabeth, in her own bed. She had already died from multiple stab wounds, mostly to the chest. Mrs. Elliott was found nearby bleeding from a wound to her own chest. (The Buffalo News, Sept. 20, 1984, p. 1 and Sept. 21, p. C- 5.)

Elliott was divorced from her WCG-member husband Frederick R. Elliott of Kenmore, New York, and had been living with her widowed mother Olive Baldassara. Mrs. Baldassara was home the night of the tragedy, but was apparently asleep in another room during the attack.

Investigators say that Elliott had telephoned police the previous evening claiming her ex-husband had sexually abused their daughter. But police have since concluded that there are “no facts to support that allegation.” After Elliott was treated at a hospital and released into police custody, she told investigators she had “committed a sin that would carry on through her bloodline” and that her daughter had “committed an unpardonable sin and didn’t pray enough.”

Neighbors described Elliott as a reclusive “religious fanatic” who rarely allowed her daughter outdoors to play. Church acquaintances told us that although Elliott had been disfellowshipped from the WCG, she had remained faithful to church teachings and had desired to be reinstated in the church. Reinstatement was not forthcoming, however, because she had been labeled as having a “demon problem.”

One of Elliott’s church friends said, “I don’t think Pack [Dave Pack, a WCG minister in the Buffalo, New York area] ever encouraged her to get psychiatric help. And if he really thought she had demons, why didn’t he just cast them out, like in the Bible?”

Another acquaintance said, “We could sense Lois had a problem, but her church experience and her marriage problems didn’t help her. Then after she was disfellowshipped she seemed to get worse. She really needed help.”

Niagara County First Assistant District Attorney Stephen P. Shierling told the Report he fully intends to prosecute Elliott on the murder charge. But Elliott’s attorney, James Perry of North Tonawanda told us that his client has been declared mentally incompetent to assist in her own defense, has been committed to a state mental hospital for treatment, and that there is no way to know if she will ever recover sufficiently to be able to stand trial.

Whatever the legal outcome, the fact remains that a pretty little four-year-old girl is dead. Neighbors told reporters how Roxanne’s father had visited the little girl at least twice each week and how happy she always seemed to be when he arrived. The Buffalo News story of Sept. 21 had this ending:

Although neighbors Thursday said that they never saw the little girl playing outside, her father, Mr. Elliott, talked about her energy and her precociousness. She loved to dance and draw and could name all the states, he said.

“She had a mind like you wouldn’t believe,” he told The News. “She was like a little adult, a little Shirley Temple. She was so vivacious.” Mr. Elliott then politely declined any further comment, and broke down in tears.

David Pack’s Reign of Terror

On the night of Roxanne Elliott’s death, one of the last people – probably the very last one – Lois Elliott phoned before the tragedy was WCG minister David Pack, pastor of the Buffalo (North), New York congregation.. Exactly what was said, we don’t know. At least not yet. That information may well come out should Lois Elliott ever recover sufficiently to stand trial. What is remarkable, however, is how often Pack’s name seems to appear in conjunction with tragedies in the WCG. For a number of years now, no WCG minister’s name has appeared more often in letters written to the Report complaining of ministerial abuse.

Pack, a burly 6-foot, 5-inch Ambassador College graduate known locally for his authoritarian style, has so incensed some in his flock that a group have circulated an open letter detailing his abuses and have called for his removal. The letter describes Pack’s ministerial leadership as a “Reign of Terror.” On the cover page, addressed to WCG headquarters leaders, they wrote:

“David’s power-crazed quest to totally dominate the mind, body, and spirit of church members has not been done in a corner and has been done clearly in view of all to see at headquarters in Pasadena.”

On the following 13 pages of their letter the allegations about Pack read like a horror story. The authors contend that Pack constantly intimidates members, uses threats and mind-control methods, is given to extreme emotional outbursts, is highly political, believes in winning at all cost, has disfellowshipped members for trivial faults, prescribes diets while “playing M.D.,” insists on being addressed as Mr. Pack, enjoys wearing skimpy, skin-tight shorts to sporting events, has actually worn a wolf costume to church socials, enjoys putting down women, and told one married woman with children, “It would be better for you to shack up one night with a man than wear makeup.” 

The letter quotes Pack as having said, “Everyone who has challenged me has either died, been seriously injured or has been eliminated from the work.” And, “God backs me even if I am wrong.

” On page 7 the authors made this statement to Pack (emphasis ours): Doesn’t it bother you that while you were in charge of the Rochester and Syracuse area there were three suicides? One can only wonder why they chose to kill themselves while you were their main advisor in the area. Perhaps you suggested to one or more of them that they would in no way make it into the Kingdom of God…. A statement such as, “You are no longer in the body of Christ,” could have caused one to give up and kill himself.

The above quote was written well before the Elliott family tragedy. Some who knew little Roxanne and her mother Lois Elliott wonder if it might have been a prophecy.

Living University - The Thorn In Many LCG Members Sides

Several LCG sources have sent things to me over the last several months complaining about Living University, the "educational" arm of the Living Church of God.

It looks like Living Church of God's mind-boggling "university" does not sit well with many LCG members.  LCG, as does several other COG splinters, is attempting to mimic Herbert Armstrong's three campuses that were here in the United States and in England.  No matter how much any of these groups try, they still cannot nor will ever measure up to anything HWA inspired.  As anyone who has ever had any ties to the Worldwide Church of God and all of its hundreds of harlot daughters knows, HWA had a vision, regardless of how it was implemented, that hundreds of thousands bought into over the decades.  Today in 2017 the top four Church of God groups, no matter how hard they try, CANNOT recapture anything that Herbert Armstrong envisioned.

Even naming their one-room schoolhouses as "universities" have not helped these groups.  Only Gerald Flurry has a campus and probably comes the closest to mimicking HWA, while UCG and LCG are lucky if they can occupy a floor or two in their denominational HQ's.

Living Church of God members are particularly perturbed at the "university" they are paying for, that in their eyes is not producing any good fruits.  Most of its "student body" is made up of church members in remote locations "auditing" classes online.  The 20 or so full-time students in Charlotte are an expensive drain on LCG resources.

When you look at the "mission" of the LCG University, notice one group pf people they claim to be touching: "society."

double click to enalrge

The purpose of Living U is to "provide instruction relevant to the changing needs of the Individual, the church, and society."  What relevant things is LU doing that is relevant to society?  LU is geared inwardly towards the church and LCG members know this.  It does nothing for society and has had zero impact.  While it may look good on an IRS tax form, LCG members are not happy with LU's mission.

Nor, are LCG members impressed with the rampant nepotism in the hierarchy of Living U.

double click to enlarge

This should be nothing new to LCG members.  This is how the Church of God has functioned for decades.  Family members always received priority in hiring, promotions, ordinations, etc.  God forbid if any lay member was ever appointed to the board of any of these entities!  Lay members have always been considered too stupid to help run any of the church entities.  Only the sons and relatives of the top leaders qualified, no matter how stupid or abusive they are!

The hierarchy of the Church of God has always been "incestuous" in the way all of the top families intermarried and kept control of the family business (the church).  Nepotism was the rule of the day in the old Worldwide Church of God and remains so to this day in EVERY one of the larger COG splinters.

Church of God In Wales On The Importance Of Apostles

The Church of God in Wales holds staunchly to everything that Herbert Armstrong wrote and said. There is a reason for that. In their eyes, Herbert W Armstrong was an apostle through whom God communicated directly to with all of the spiritual knowledge that he dished forth. Because of that, no ordinary church member or minister could every receive spiritual knowledge that they could share with the rest of the brethren.

According to the COGinW, the disunity in the COG today is the result of busybodies pretending they are modern day conduits of knowledge from God. Thanks to the false prophets of Armstrongism, men like Almost-ordained Bob Thiel, Pharisee James Malm, Dave Pack, Gerald Flurry and many others have set themselves up as apostles and teachers of blasphemies, pretending to be conduits of God's word. These liars are the reason behind the great disunity in the church today. All of these petulant little men took it upon themselves to set themselves up as apostles and prophets.

Unity is a vital and eternal quality that God insists is present within each of His potential sons and daughters. Without it, there can be no True Church of God; God and Christ and those within the Family of God are all to be one (John 17:21). If unity is lacking between different organisations that all claim to be the True Church, it indicates a grave sickness. “The people judge or decide” – the very meaning of the word “Laodicea” – gives rise to such an antithesis of unity. It produces a myriad of different interpretations of the same scriptures. But scripture is not for private interpretation (II Pet 1:20). 

God has given His Church the means whereby the unity He insists upon can be achieved. To be in harmony under God, each of God’s people must have the humility to grow according to the grace given and not attempt to take something that is not theirs. The grace to lay foundations within the Church is specifically given to apostles – not the general ministry or membership. Only by aligning our teachings and beliefs with such foundations can the unity God wants be produced. Going in any other direction takes us away from God’s revelation and will produce chaos and confusion – the utter antithesis of what God insists must be found within His Family.

John Rittenbaugh on Prophets

Almost-ordained and almost-arrested Bob Thiel has an article up by John Ritenbaugh about prophets.  It is ironic that Ritenbaugh writes about prophets/false prophets in the church.  Ritenbaugh was the prophetic guru of many in the Glendale/Pasadena are for many years.  Everything the man talked about people salivated over, copied, taped and shipped all around the country.  Ritenbaugh has ended up like all of the other false prophets in the church, an epic failure!

All of us desire to know the future so we can be prepared for it. We want to be in control of our destinies and not at the mercy of events. However, some have this desire so strongly that they set themselves up as channels through which the future is revealed. 

Such people have misled many. Deuteronomy 18, along with chapter 13, warns against such people. Whether they are called diviners, charmers, spiritists, or channelers, using methods like reading tea leaves, casting lots, or conducting séances, they are to be seriously and carefully avoided because there is no godly reality to their prognostications. Those seeking to know are being misguided, putting themselves at the mercy of lying demons, or at the very least, imaginative men and women. 

At other times, simply following a church tradition regarding a prophecy can also mislead a person. This occurs because someone in the past, sincerely believing he understood a particular prophecy, began preaching his belief, and many in his audience then believed without the resources to prove the interpretation wrong. Due to frequent repetition, it came to be accepted as truth. 

It is important for us to understand that prophets were not merely temporary and occasional expedients God would turn to. They played a vital and continuing role in Israel, especially in those times before the Word of God was widely distributed. This is why God makes provision for them within the law. He shows in many places that those He appoints to the prophetic office will always preach the keeping of the commandments of God as evidence of the Source of their inspiration. They will teach the conservation of past truths even as they break new doctrinal ground. 

They both forthtell – that is, proclaim a message truthfully, clearly, and authoritatively to those for whom it is intended – and they will on occasion, but not always, foretell – that is, predict events before they take place. 

It is misleading to believe these verses in Deuteronomy 18 apply only to Christ. His is undoubtedly their ultimate application, but the promise and description applies to all true, God-ordained prophets. Notice some of the identifiers in these verses:

1. God established the foundational pattern for the prophetic office in Moses (“like me”). 

2. God will raise a prophet up from among the Israelitish people. Later biblical sources show he might be drawn and appointed from any of the tribes and from any occupation. In other words, he did not have to be a Levite. 

3. He will perform the function of a mediator between God and men (verses 16-18). 

4. He will stand apart from the system already installed. He will not be antagonistic to the system, but he may be very antagonistic to the sins of those within the system, especially the leadership. 

5. God will directly appoint and separate him for his office. Thus, the thrust of his service as God’s representative is direct and authoritative. By contrast, the priest’s function flowed from man to God by means of sacrifice – far less direct and more appealing and pleading than demanding. The New Testament ministry combines elements of both, but parallels the prophet’s function more than the priest’s. 

Simply and broadly, a prophet is one who is given a message by another of greater authority and speaks for him to those for whom the message is intended. Thus, Moses was God’s prophet, but Aaron was Moses’ prophet. 

Without a doubt, when we hear the word “prophet,” we immediately think of the Old Testament. This is a natural reaction because that is where most of them appear in the Bible. Our memory instantaneously brings forth names like Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and David – all great men. However, without a doubt, the two greatest prophets of all time appear in the New Testament: John the Baptist and Jesus Christ. John the Baptist is the last and greatest under the Old Covenant, and Jesus Christ is the first and greatest of the New.

John W. Ritenbaugh
(The Berean, September 18, 2016)

Ritenbaughs comments above did not sit too well with Almost-ordained and almost-arrested  Bob Thiel. Ritenbaughs comments make Almost-ordained Thiel out to be a false prophet.  That irritated Almost-arrested Thiel so much that he made this comment, referring to himself, of course:

...the reality is that most real Christians will NOT accept biblical criteria for prophets in this age. 

Sadly, many people in the Church of God (COG) have trouble believing that God actually uses prophets or how He would use them today.

The Apostle Paul makes it clear that not all are prophets. Prophet is an office and prophets are to prophesy. Although the position of groups like LCG is that it has NO prophets (which is the case as I stopped attending late on 12/28/12), it should be noted that its then top leader had repeatedly taught in the past that God may consider Bob Thiel to be a prophet

Almost ordained Thiel still continues to lie that Rod Meredith called him a prophet.  Meredith may have had tons of faults, but Meredith was not that naive or stupid to call Almost-arrested Thiel a prophet.

Almost ordained Thiel is so sure that he is a prophet that he has to quote Jesus where he states that prophets will be reviled and persecuted. Almost-ordained Thiel likes to pretend he is being reviled and persecuted by those of us here and by those in other COG's who laugh and mock him.  Such a sad little man.

Jesus taught: 

11 “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. (Matthew 5:11-12)

Contrary to scripture, most end time Christians do not heed the following from the Apostle Paul:

20 Despise not prophesyings. (1 Thessalonians 5:20, KJV)
20 Do not despise prophecies. (1 Thessalonians 5:20, NKJV

Why should a Church of God member ever trust any of the false prophets of Armstrongism?  Every one of them have proven to be liars, including Almost-ordained Thiel.

The Almost-ordained false prophet then precedes to make a list of 38 different items that he claims all of the other COG's are in error on.  See it here.

The lying false prophet is now dragging United Church of God into the mix.  Not only does he claim LCG claimed he was a prophet, but UCG did too!  He claims that LCG and UCG recognized that all 38 of his points were 100% accurate.

It should be noted that leaders in the Living Church of God and/or the United Church of God confirmed to me personally that I was biblically correct on essentially all the above points, despite the fact that their respective churches hold to several of the errors pointed out above. Those who rely too much on a compromised ministry (Ezekiel 34:7-10) to teach them prophecy that is not truly in accordance with scripture need to realize that according to Jesus’ words in Revelation 2 & 3 and Luke 21, only relatively few Christians will be protected from the hour of trial that will come upon the whole world (Revelation 3:10;

The church has had false prophets in its midst from its very inception.  The Pasadena headquarters
was filled with them.  Hardly a week went by when a new prophet would appear at the Hall of Ad proclaiming some absurd prophecy. Hundreds, if not thousands made their way to Pasadena over the decades.  Every one of them is long gone and forgotten. Some had died, some still write silliness and publish it, and others finally hung up their prophetic glasses and got on with life, still as deluded as ever.  Others like Almost-ordained Thiel and the Church Pharisee James Malm set themselves up as godly men do a "work".  All they do now is toot their own horn and make idiotic predictions and then lie that they never did when confronted.

Dave Pack: I am after as many eyeballs as possible on my products

Deluded Dave says:

Now, one other thing that obviously drives that and can speed it up is how much money we have to spend on media. And as I’ve been saying recently, two or three times, and it’s continuing to increase. The number of dollars that we can put into media appears to be as though it’s going to be significantly greater, earlier than I ever dreamed. So that’s going to drive it, because, as Mr. Armstrong understood and every marketer understands, it’s how many eyeballs can you get on whatever the product is you’re offering.

Dave has been off the air with his telecast for some time now.  Money was needed to fund his campus expansion. Apparently, buildings and grass lawns were more important than his "gospel" message.  His move back into television is now dependant once again upon the financial support of his members. You can see below that Dave guilts his members into giving more money.  The more they give the more people who respond, the less they give, the fewer people will watch and read Dave's stuff.  All belongs to God, therefore as God's most important man in human history, everything belongs to Dave. Send it in, dumb sheep.

So, if we’re on worldwide television again soon—and that’s now back in play in a serious way…Again, if people who have said they’re going to give certain amounts do, that’s in play, if just some of that arrives. A massive internet presence at the same time, with an ability every month to add more…And that will be driven by how much God’s people continue to give, you could call it generosity, you can call it obedience, because common belongs to God as much as tithes do…that will have an effect. So we can all pray about that. 

SaveSave