The Church of God in Wales holds staunchly to everything that Herbert Armstrong wrote and said. There is a reason for that. In their eyes, Herbert W Armstrong was an apostle through whom God communicated directly to with all of the spiritual knowledge that he dished forth. Because of that, no ordinary church member or minister could every receive spiritual knowledge that they could share with the rest of the brethren.
According to the COGinW, the disunity in the COG today is the result of busybodies pretending they are modern day conduits of knowledge from God. Thanks to the false prophets of Armstrongism, men like Almost-ordained Bob Thiel, Pharisee James Malm, Dave Pack, Gerald Flurry and many others have set themselves up as apostles and teachers of blasphemies, pretending to be conduits of God's word. These liars are the reason behind the great disunity in the church today. All of these petulant little men took it upon themselves to set themselves up as apostles and prophets.
Unity is a vital and eternal quality that God insists is present within each of His potential sons and daughters. Without it, there can be no True Church of God; God and Christ and those within the Family of God are all to be one (John 17:21). If unity is lacking between different organisations that all claim to be the True Church, it indicates a grave sickness. “The people judge or decide” – the very meaning of the word “Laodicea” – gives rise to such an antithesis of unity. It produces a myriad of different interpretations of the same scriptures. But scripture is not for private interpretation (II Pet 1:20).
God has given His Church the means whereby the unity He insists upon can be achieved. To be in harmony under God, each of God’s people must have the humility to grow according to the grace given and not attempt to take something that is not theirs. The grace to lay foundations within the Church is specifically given to apostles – not the general ministry or membership. Only by aligning our teachings and beliefs with such foundations can the unity God wants be produced. Going in any other direction takes us away from God’s revelation and will produce chaos and confusion – the utter antithesis of what God insists must be found within His Family.
31 comments:
Anon 4:01, you are absolutely correct. Armstrongism is dying very quickly and good riddance.
After cruising around their website, Im convinced that this is probably a one man band, or at most just a handful of members group.
One interesting tidbit on their site under the heading "Our Beliefs" stated ...
"We do not publish a statement of beliefs, Mr Armstrong did not do so for the general public when he was alive."
HWA never wanted to have a published set of beliefs so that he could change them wily nilly at his whim. From what I have read, the makeup doctrine was an example, when it fit his needs to change it, so as to have a reason and excuse to divorce his wife Ramona.
This is perhaps why HWA, who was in full knowledge of the STP project, later denied its existence and turned it into a vehicle to use for internal purging. HWA never wanted to have any type of paper trail of reason or provenance in regards to his proclamations or declarations. It is for this reason that the internet is hated by many COG groups, as it provides a history , accountability and resume' for the wannabe "next apostles/prophets".
Anon at 12:29
There are many things that are common unity issues that are social norms. Driving, wearing clothes, don't steal , etc.
I think the better word to describe what you are trying to say is "conformity". Forced conformity is surely a communist type activity and mindset.
Anon 1229 wrote Unity is a commie/socialist theme.
Whoa! Remember the American colonies? Something the myriad of COGs should consider is Franklin's call to Join or Die...
Certainly no doctors of law here.
There is a big difference between "doctrine" and "rulings".
To make it simple
A doctrine might be. Clothing is mandated since Adam and Eve during church services.
A ruling might be. Business attire is apropriate. Or skirt below the knees.
Rulings like make-up can be changed at the whim of societal norms at any times. Doctrines if found in the bible cannot.
Same goes with computers.
Nothing in the bible about the use of I phones on the sabbath.
But a ruling might clear things up a bit within for specific use in a certain time frame, but opinions might differ.
nck
Hoss,
Franklin was familiar with sabbath keepers.
He also printed some of their pamflets on his printing press in Philadelphia.
Great spy also as "postmaster general" in Paris. Opening diplomatic mail like the NSA today.
nck
Wassup? Site get hacked? Many comments appear to have disappeared. Did Satan attack us?
BB
I have no idea. When I signed on this morning there were around 20 comments on several threads that appeared to be deleted. There i no way to recover them. If I were Almost ordained Thiel or Pharisee Malm I could blame this as an attack from Satan....
if anyone has the comment sent to them in digest from over the past 4 days, send them to me and I can repost them.
It gets deeper than simple doctrine and rulings, nck. New Covenant, Old Covenant, Jewish Christians, Gentile Christians, Noahide law, keys of Peter, etc. All are critical factors in the debate.
WCG always went with the very literal and hard core conservative. We know this can't be the correct path, because their guesses at prophecy and the timing of the tribulation have been so inaccurate. And, that means that their so-called obedience to and alleged love for God have been off, because obviously God did not spoon-feed their prophecy mold to them any more than He worked with William Miller, the Adventists and Witnesses, David Koresh, or Harold Camping.
If certain of the secular details seem to work out, as John Trechak raised the possibility of happening 40 years ago, it is purely coincidental, as John opined at the time. The whole enchillada as HWA preached must unfold exactly as he outlined, or he didn't get what he preached from God. Actually, that ship sailed in 1973-75. He and his teachings are therefore irrelevant. That's the real reason why his empire collapsed.
BB
The devil is a sly old fox. lol
Comment was made saying: "...The Church of God in Wales (COGinW) holds staunchly to everything that Herbert Armstrong wrote and said..."
And that's a huge problem, b/c to read their booklet, "Just What Is a Apostle? (JWIAA)," is to encourage readers to virtually worship (idolize????) a man: Herbert W. Armstrong (HWA) and then remain stagnant with the knowledge presented in his last written book, Mystery of the Ages (MOA).
Those who believe all that is written in this booklet are very blind and don't know it. It is that they cannot grow in grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ, b/c they are stuck with knowledge that came through HWA until 16 January 1986...and they remained stagnant. The same is true for virtually all of the other xcogs as well.
Both the Book MOA and booklet JWIAA are filled with milk of the Word, and lots of Junk Food and very little strong Meat. Many people have pointed out the "Junk Food" contained within both items, and I will not waste anybody's time going over them; it's already known.
I mean no disrespect to HWA, a servant of God, who strived to do his best with what he had. Join the club! So many strive to do their best, even if it's just another way that seems right in one's own eyes.
The original post cites 2 paragraphs found on page 30 of the booklet JWIAA. On that page it says: "...The grace to lay foundations within the Church is specifically given to apostles – not the general ministry or membership...."
We already have a foundation: "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" Eph 2:20
Do we need more than that? And HWA is not part of that "foundation of the apostles." HWA wasn't alive when Paul wrote those words.
The booklet JWIAA make mention of Eph 4:7-13 on pages 27-28. Verse 11 says: "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;"
however, the author Jonathan Bowles does not tell us that the word "some" should have been translated as the definite article "the."
Before HWA came on the scene we already had the foundation that was composed of THE Apostles, THE evangelists, etc. Nobody needed to have an apostle HWA (Flurry, etc...pick another name), or an evangelist Rod Meredith (Doug Winnail, Weston, etc....pick another name), etc.
Jonathan would have us believe that there is more than one foundation. Is there? Jonathan wrote: "Only by aligning our teachings and beliefs with such foundations can the unity God wants be produced."
Really? Of course, Jonathan wants us to get back on track by re-reading MOA, but who wants to fill their minds with Milk...and stagnant Junk Food?
To be continued…
John
Continuing…
If God wants His people, His sheep, to have unity He will just make it happen and this book and booklet are not needed. God accomplishes things by His Spirit.
2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, AND GIVEN the earnest of the Spirit IN our hearts.
Ephesians 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might BY HIS SPIRIT IN the inner man;
Ephesians 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the UNITY OF THE SPIRIT in the bond of peace.
Even ancient King David knew unity was possible without all sorts of extra books:
Psalm 133:1 "Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!"
Incidentally, the following shows that God is not limited to giving out "inspired knowledge/speaking" solely by an apostle:
Numbers 22:28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?
:29 And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee.
:30 And the ass said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay.
If it weren't for that ass, Balaam would have gone in a direction taking him away from God's revelation, and would have produced his death.
We are not told to: "...earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto Herbert W. Armstrong."
Rather we are told to: "...earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."
And Unity and faith (a fruit of God's Spirit, and not of SELF) are linked:
"Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:" Ephesians 4:13
Is that really true? Time will tell...
John
HWA never wanted to have a published set of beliefs so that he could change them wily nilly at his whim. From what I have read, the makeup doctrine was an example, when it fit his needs to change it, so as to have a reason and excuse to divorce his wife Ramona.
As I recall, the divorce occurred because Ramona found out about Herb's incest with his daughter.
The P.R. bull organic matter the officials dished up was generally multi-level and multi-purpose. Wouldn't it be convenient if everyone got to cover up their deepest darkest sins by announcing to the brethren that the sin was someone elses, and it was over something small that the church made a federal out of, like use of cosmetics?
BB
Connie wrote wily nilly
If that was a typo, it was a serendipitous one! Perhaps the definition would be advantageous randomness.
HWA couldn't budge on doctrines (basic teachings of theology) because it would undermine his claim to have had lost truths revealed to him. He could change practices of the church, such as make up. He was a man of the 19th century who taught that make up was worldly, vain, etc. Skirt lengths, hair length were all big issues with him. BTW, I read that when the TB epidemic broke out, this led women to shorten the length of their dresses so that they wouldn't drag along the sidewalks where people have spit up their TB infected mucous out of their lungs. Imagine going shopping and bringing home not only eggs, milk and bread, but also TB.
HWA wasn't interested in real unity, but in uniformity. Any unity that was seen was very superficial. He did leave a paper trail without having a statement of beliefs. His publications themselves were fragmented statements of belief. His paper trail of false prophecies sure helped undermine his credibility as an apostle/prophet.
The excuse given by some for the declining state of Armstrongism is that the work is over and God is not calling any one, or very few, because he has enough to set-up his kingdom. If that is true how come these splinter groups still spend so much on media,(magazines,booklets,tv,ect.)? The fact is that religion, in general, is in decline especially a religion that is legalistic and has a strange set of beliefs as Armstrongism. The drama will continue to play-out and Armstrongism will continue to slowly decline until there is only a handful of living room groups remaining maybe 20 or 30 years from now.
Ramona knew of the incest pre-marriage. The Arizona court reports show that they had an understanding about his continual rape of his daughter.
According to the Associated Press:
"Lawrence Deckter, Mrs. Armstrong's lawyer, said the testimony would explain an understanding the couple reached about Armstrong's "Prior incestuous conduct with his daughter for many years."
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"The Arizona court reports show"
You either are the first person in Armstrongite history to produce the "official court papers" or you are just another insignificant person reading a newspaper and blowing out of your behind from self importance.
nck
5:29
Armstrongism is over because the CIA mind control experiment was over.
The Cold War is over and we have entered the next phase of people brainwashed by the media to accept the coming "World Tomorrow" where your freedom will be controlled by algorythms produced by the CIA's Google and Facebook companies.
As HWA rightly claimed since he was right about EVERYTHING.
You will be/eel happy, you will be able to act on the pursuit of happiness, but it will not be a democracy.
nck
5.29 AM
If you read books like Jeremiah, God continually warns nations to repent. So the 'work' is still relevant.
NCK thank you for your kind words,
When I first met a WCG minister, one of my questions was why there was no document that summarized their doctrines, teachings and beliefs. His answer was something like, There is! The Bible!
Now each splinter seems to need some statement so you can tell them apart. Or visit COGwriter, where the major COGs are compared and contrasted with CCOG (formerly, the standard was LCG).
Again with Hebraic vs Greek philosophy, a Creed or Statement of Beliefs is not consistent with classical Hebraic thought. The Jewish "Principles of Faith" first appeared in the Middle Ages, about the time Aristotelian philosophy began to influence Judaism.
S cit.
Iron sharpens iron. You stated something as a sure thing from a source you have not seen. Unless you could send a copy to the "master". Then you would be of service to about 40.000 people.
Hoss. Judaism was influenced by Hellenism since Alexander the Greats invasion.
Wasnt that the basis of difference between Saducees and Pharisees and other interpretation. Paul was citing Greek philosophers and plays in Acts I believe. The Roman Pauls mother tongue must have been Greek coming from Asia Minor. Hasmoneans Greek or at least Hellenistic as I recall.
Nck
I've told this story before, but not recently. One of my clients several years back was the CEO of an evangelistic organization. In fact he had taken over the ministry of one of HWA's early competitors on the radio, after the founder died. Anyway, I had sold this organization some mail management software, and we had had a meeting in the gentleman's office to finalize the deal, and to pick up a check. I nearly gasped when the man handed me his card, and it said "Apostle ----- ----------" (the man's name). Several years later, I noticed that his title had changed since my last visit. His cards now read "Chief Apostle ----- --------"
I guess he felt the need to differentiate himself from the plethora of other apostles. We'll know what ACOG leaders read here if any of them suddenly ordain themselves as chief apostle!
BB
Many churches carry the apostle title among their ranks.
Also the cog 7th day.
HWA only started calling himself that way after people styled him that way and many years of work felt him to mandate that title.
If any splinter is to assume the title it would be "apostle general"
nck
NCK wrote Judaism was influenced by Hellenism since Alexander the Greats invasion.
Quite true, and there were strong reactions against it; the Maccabean Revolt, and the ostracism of Gentiles, with the "18 Measures" edict from the Pharisean House of Shamai in the First Century BCE. This is why a big issue in the First Century CE was about conversion of Gentiles to Christianity.
An analogy to the Jewish reaction to Hellenism could be HWA putting the church back on track.
I knew HWA was not really an apostle the minute he started putting down the rock n roll. When I think of what demons bring to mankind, the first thing is depression. And that's what classical music causes. Rock music makes you want to tap your foot, get up and dance, and be happy!
BB
BB
You never heard of "Pan"?
Or the drumroll at a good Dionisyan ritual.
The beatles must have seemed like the strangest "Barbershop Quartet" ever to this 1892 person you refer to.
Some classical music like Beethoven's was regarded as Rock and Roll in its time, too loud, too rythmic. Strauss was as rich and popular as Justin Bieber and likewise revered by the maidens.
nck
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