Friday, March 10, 2017

Living Church of God: Forgiveness vs Bitterness It's YOUR problem, not their's

Doug Winnail's "sabbath" message this week is about forgiveness.  The person who sent this to me said this was a way of silencing members into never critiquing the LCG leadership and the church.  If you dare critique or question the leaders or the church then you have a bad attitude because you have never forgiven them for any wrongs they have committed.  You are filled with bitterness which means you have allowed Satan to have control of you.  When you have negative emotions and memories they are directly tied into "personal pride."  Remember, REAL Christians forgive (them) though they rarely ever forgive you.  You, on the other hand, are disfellowshipped and marked.

The Power of Forgiveness

One important key for working together in harmony with others is the willingness and the ability to forgive someone for real or perceived words or actions that hurt us—and that is exactly what Christians must learn to do. The Scriptures tell us that we have all sinned, but that we can be forgiven because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ who died for our sins (Romans 3:23-26; John 3:16). However, Jesus also taught that we must be ready and willing to forgive others who offend us—or God will not forgive us(Matthew 6:12-15). Forgiving others involves: not holding grudges or harboring bitterness against others, not seeking to get even, and not gossiping or saying negative or derogatory things about others who have made mistakes or hurt us in some way. This is not always easy, especially when memories, emotions and personal pride are involved, but that is what we are admonished to do if we want to be real Christians—because real Christians have learned to forgive. Forgiveness is a powerful tool that makes working together in harmony with others possible, productive and enjoyable!
Have a profitable Sabbath,
Douglas S. Winnail


Anonymous said...

Why is it that when I read Winnail's exhortations I always compare his words to my workplace and to various ACOG congregations?

On the whole, my fellow workers are much, much nicer people than the "converted" people Winnail has to constantly beg not to attack and undermine each other. Does Winnail realize just what a negative picture he is painting of his LCG members?

Anonymous said...

Notice that there is no mention of not sinning against others in the first place. Forgiveness is not necessary if there is no sin. But when do members hear from the pulpit sermons on not mistreating others? When are their sermons condemning evil behaviour? When do you ever hear that it is NOT a right to criticize other with unfavourable comments. It is not a right.
Out of love of evil, Gods laws aren't expounded, so they demand 'forgiveness' as a 'solution' to sin.
I say, let them pay for their own sins.
All this forgiveness claptrap is the wolf talking to the lambs. Previous generations had it right when they flogged and whipped sinners. But not todays pussy generation.

Not forgetting, the flip side of demanding forgiveness as a right, is that they never forgive you, and punish you everyday for the rest of your life. They never forgive. This is the voice of experience, rather than something I have read.

Anonymous said...

Winnail must know that he is part of a church that is led by the infamous ego behind the "Manpower Papers" which were anything but loving and forgiving to AC students who emerged from AC as anything other than the stiff yellow pencils Meredith had tried to make of them.

Byker Bob said...

Wow. We know they don't understand grace, but this isn't even loving administration of the law! The Pharisees were probably more merciful. Basically, Winnie just shot LCG members the big b.o. h.i.c.a.*


* bend over, here it comes again.

Anonymous said...

Mind control at it's best it is.Not that forgiveness is not good but the sneaky subliminal message seems to be directed mainly to the lay members as Mr. MEREDITH would say don't get your feelings hurt, what about don't go around deliberately hurting other people's and feelings and actually showing remorse and making amends if you unintentionally hurt someone. Wonder if these guys talk to their wives that way, "honey don't get your feelings hurt but I forgot it was our anniversary now you can forgive me and go to bed oh let's have sex tonight as well.

Hoss said...

Anon 543 wrote: honey don't get your feelings hurt but I forgot it was our anniversary now you can forgive me and go to bed oh let's have sex tonight as well

Sounds like Homer Simpson, who prays "Lord if you don't want me to do this give me a sign otherwise it's okay".

Forgive and forget reminds me of a comic with a priest sitting behind his desk, with an empty In-tray labeled Forgive and a full tray labeled Forget.

The Jewish Siddur prayer, the Bedtime Shema, begins with "...I hereby forgive anyone..." Ron Dart commented that one may forgive another, but there still may be consequences related to the forgiven action.

Anonymous said...

Forgiveness was invented to disarm people who have just grievances. That prevents justice from being served. It was invented to make Christians docile.

Anonymous said...

Of course there are consequences to someone you have forgiven. Would you lend money to someone who has robbed you, even if they had repented?

Byker Bob said...

Of course not! I've said for years that just because you have forgiven somebody doesn't automatically mean that you are compelled to have a relationship with them. Some things are left to us as a matter of personal choice. We get to choose who we allow to get close to us. If family members figuratively died and became cult zombies, where is it written that you must be close to them? Were you to do so, it would be a fake relationship.


Anonymous said...

Before forgiveness there must be repentance from the one who has wronged you. Are we to forgive without repentance when God Himself does not?

nck said...

Of course all that is said here is true in a way.

True forgiving however is an essential condition to prosper or wither for an individual. And I am referencing the conditions as specified in the movie "Unbroken." (I still dont know how the percentage in my wcg congegration managed after having experienced "the real thing as specified")


Anonymous said...

My 5.22 PM comment is another example of Herbies church being like the protestant churches. They all constantly sing the song of 'be quick to forgive,' and similar. Where oh where is the song about not sinning against others? It isn't there. Listening to the Tele evangelists, you would think that sin barely exists, and if they mention it, it is always some trivial social slight. They sugar coat sin.

It's the same church culture of not affirming sin, and demanding as a right that the victims 'forgive,' ie fake reality and pretend nothing happened. Herbie and the protestants are one on practical day to day fundamentals.

Steve D said...

Are we to forgive without repentance? How do you define forgiveness? If it means to no longer resent someone and want revenge, or some other negative emotion, then I suggest yes. We may need to forgive those who have wrong us and who are now dead having never repented. We have to forgive, move on, for our own mental health. If you have been abused by a cult leader, if you don't forgive, then you are continuing the work of abuse that he started. We have to lift the needle off the record and stop replaying the past and clinging to anger, hate, resentment, etc. I was in the WCG for only four years, not long enough to lead to poverty or to suffer from illnesses without medical care. I met a wonderful young lady who has been my wife for over 44 years. Many leaders of the WCG were not qualified academically or morally to be pastors/leaders. They were horribly flawed, but many of them were deceived and hurt also. Unless you were at the very top of the leadership, everyone was hurt in some way or another.

Anonymous said...

BB 8:40 PM wrote: "...the big b.o. h.i.c.a...."

Yes, that is true as Doug Winnail intructs as though he is speaking to a bunch of dummies, people in whom God's Spirit is not working. Yes, here is Doug again giving out what he considers to be another "important key." Doug writes as though he lacks faith of God in The God to accomplish His Will by His Power of His Spirit within human beings...that God just needs Doug's tremendous help.

Doug, speaking of forgiving others says: "...This is not always easy, especially when memories, emotions and personal pride are involved..."

Well, Doug, why not explain based upon God's Word why pride should be a problem! You don't do that. I suggest using the following:

"He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride." Job 41:34

That verse is speaking about Satan's involvement in pride of human beings, but you may need to first see that pride within yourself, as in James' advice:

"Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?" James 4:5

A spirit that lusts within Doug Winnail? Yes, join the club! If you come to more clearly see that in yourSELF, then you may not be so quick, like ancient king Saul, to judge and blame the people within the Living group you are a part of...and man-made group at that.

Another thought: Doug continues on saying: "...but that is what we are admonished to do if we want to be real Christians—because real Christians have learned to forgive..."

Real Christians? What's that? You, unlike Rod, don't like the words "full, fully?"

One is either a Christian or one is not one. What's with those phrases such as "full son, real Christian," etc.?

Doug, with God's Spirit REALLY working within Christians their lives should be like way back in that first century:

1 John 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

Did you get that, Doug? That verse did not use any phrase like full/real anything, and yet they (fathers, young men) HAVE OVERCOME the wicked know; that "king over all the children of pride!" Doug, where is your confidence in "your people," or might God just be working elsewhere on earth outside of your man-made organization...same thought applies to man-made associations cogwa, united, etc.

Did John lie to us there? Repetition needed?

1 John 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye HAVE OVERCOME the wicked one.

Yes, Doug, young men...with their whole lives ahead of them...HAVE OVERCOME the wicked one. Is it that way in the group you are a part of, and if not, then why not?

You may want to search for some more keys. Oh, eventually, you will come across them, but

time will tell...


DennisCDiehl said...

Hoss noted: "Sounds like Homer Simpson, who prays "Lord if you don't want me to do this give me a sign otherwise it's okay"

thanks for the chuckle... Homer and Bart know the secrets of life!

Byker Bob said...

So that's where the dude who is always posting that God has confirmed stuff from HWA's prophecies thru prayer got his methods! They have celebrities on the Simpsons from time to time. If the general public even remembered who HWA was, they could do an episode featuring him. Maybe the Simpsons becoming cult zombies, losing their house during their third tithe year, Bart going to Ambassdor College and raising havoc on the cultic atmsosphere, and finally, the family being marked and disfellowshipped for speaking out against aluminum pots and pans.


Black Ops Mikey said...

Yes, go ahead and blame the victim.


Their opinion counts and if you attack their opinions, it's a personal attack on them, and, as such, you have committed a hate crime, need to be punished and since they are always in the right, you have to forgive them for all the nasty things you just imagined they did.

How does that work out in the Book of Revelation? Does the Lord forgive all those who neglected and abused others? You know the ones on his left hand?

No, it seems that in Revelation, God does not forgive the sorts of people who are the 1%ers in the ACoGs, just as He didn't forgive the unrepentant Pharisees. Sorry, nothing personal, but you're dead meat and to be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Scripture says that God claims that Vengeance is mine, I will repay. Forgiveness is irrelevant.

However, revenge is, so here's the deal, forgive if you want to -- it's stupid, but fine, it's your choice -- just don't get in the way of the revenge.

Anonymous said...

Nothing that he wrote was wrong or unBiblical and unChristian. And his comments have nothing to do with LCG members being coerced, threatened and ordered to not criticize the leadership and ministry. You people here have very active imaginations. His comments are 100% correct on how Christians are expected to forgive others. Thank you Dr Winnail for your sage spiritual counsel. LCG is very fortunate to have this man in the position of leadership that he is.

Anonymous said...

12.37 PM
I remind you that Christ said to live by EVERY word of God. He did not say to live by SOME of the words of God. Mentioning only some of Gods word paints the wrong picture. It is deception by deliberate omission. A teacher of religion cannot bide parts of Gods laws, then claim that nothing said is UNbiblical and UNchristian. It most certainly is.

The issue of forgiveness does not arise if people obey Gods laws. That is what Dr Winnail should be teaching and empathizing. Do not abuse, mistreat, take advantage of, rob, slander, gossip about etc others. In my 8 years in WCG, I just about never heard that. Only on the rare occasion when a victim was a minister favourite, was anything said.

Anonymous said...

Rather than pocking fun at those who claim that God answers their prayers, you should be asking yourself why God doesn't answer your prayers.
According to you, millions are wasting their time praying, since God never answers prayers at all.

Anonymous said...

Anon 2:00 PM, not sure what you mean exactly by your statement: "The issue of forgiveness does not arise if people obey Gods laws."

Being that His law reveals God's character and how He wants us to act toward Him and our fellow human beings, then yes, if we keep His law (living by His character), thus not sinning, then one would not have to apologize (ask for forgiveness) to others. We wouldn't have done anything wrong.

However, if someone wronged me, then I should (and commanded by God to) forgive them for my sake (look at the research on the physical and emotional benefits of forgiving others). If they say sorry or not, then that IS their problem. But I've done my part as God instructed me. Let God avenge me (or not). That's His prerogative.

But the thing is that evey one of us makes mistakes and falls short of where God wants us to be. We always will while we live as physical human beings. When you closely study the New Testament, there is a reason why God's ministers during that time preached about the concept of forgiveness - God's church was not perfect. People still did things contrary to God's commandments. Therefore they / we ought to forgive and move on, and allow each the opportunity to make the necessary changes that God's word reveals.

I believe that is what Doug Winnail is getting at.

Byker Bob said...

You must be a newbie. I've been mocked mercilessly here and on other blogs and forums precisely because of my claims that my prayers HAVE been answered. No matter. I don't care. My point is that I don't contest that prayers are answered. However, there are ways in which God does answer prayer, and there are ways in which He does not. There are some people here who don't know the difference. If, as an example, God confirmed a concept or belief through an individual's prayer, there would not be splinters. I can guarantee you that everyone who ever started his own splinter group sought God's guidance, confirmation, and validation. He fact that there are 700+ splinters proves that at least 699 fell prey to their imagination. And, it seems pretty obvious that the remaining one would also be questionable, based in whether HWA fell prey to HIS imagination.

You might want to get out your concordance and do an exhaustive study of prayer. Unless you consider yourself to be equal with Mary, or some of the prophets, God is most likely not going to confirm an idea for you. There is a reason why there were such things as the Urim and Thummim.
The answer was not capable of being tainted by an individual's imagination or ego. When the divine dies were cast, the answer was considered to be final. Unless you've got a set of those, and are from the tribe of Levi and know how to use them, good luck.


Anonymous said...

2.49 PM
The bible does not teach unconditional forgiveness as these two scriptures show.

Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and IF he repent, forgive him.

Matthew 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

If a person repents, that person should also make restitution, which you and Winnail fail to mention.
Your point of view creates moral hazard, it encourages sin. It amounts to giving wicked people a moral blank check to do evil.

Your "every one of us makes mistakes and falls short of where God wants us to be" Is a whitewash of the evil unrepentant perks that many give themselves, eg ministers verbally bashing church members. Many church members as well as ministers justly deserve to be in prison for their constant mistreatment of members.

Your point of view creates a paradise for crooks in the church. How Christian is that?

Anonymous said...

What Doug clearly means is "tithe slave must always forgive error in the ministry or risk their salvation" while at the same time actively practicing that the ministry have zero obligation to ever follow Matthew 18 OR forgive tithe slaves.

This commentary coming from LCG is nauseatingly hypocritical.

Anonymous said...

Hmmmm... didn't I read a letter on another Banned post a while ago that said the Scarborough's wrote something like 40 letters to LCG trying to seek peace and reconciliation but Doug and crew ignored them all???

Hypocrisy much Doug?

LCG leadership has always had an enormous problem actually practicing what they preach.

It's always a one-way street with them. The underlings must forgive but the leadership is completely blind to their own faults and therefore believe that they are always right, never wrong and require forgiveness for nothing. They are being led by Christ afterall (or at least that's what they work so hard to convince themselves and others).

Unfortunately for LCG, many of us actually read the Bible and can see only the Works of the Flesh in LCG leadership and not the Fruits of the Spirit.

I give Doug credit for having the balls to write something that is in complete opposition to what the company for which he has sacrificed his integrity, soul and commitment to do what's right in the sight of God to for a meager paycheck!

It would mean more if he used his position of power within LCG to actually practice what he preaches but none of us will hold our breath waiting for that.