Tuesday, April 2, 2019

The festival both the Jews and most of the Christian churches keep, but the COGs ignore


The festival both the Jews and most of the Christian churches keep, 
but the COGs ignore

by TLA

One festival omission from the COG calendar is surprising considering how much the COGs love the OT festivals.

This is the Feast of First Fruits, the day when the Jews have the wave sheaf offering to celebrate the beginning of the harvest. This is the day when Jesus was accepted by the Father after His resurrection.

All the COGs know this and recognize this happened.

So why don’t they keep it?

It is because all the Christian churches call it Easter Sunday.

Instead of keeping and honoring and thanking God for Jesus’ resurrection and acceptance by the Father, they instead focus all their energies on proving Jesus was in the grave three days. (Some Jewish sources dispute the COG understanding – plus the other scriptures talk about Jesus being risen on the third day.
1 Cor 15 v3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,that he was buried, that he was raised on the third dayaccording to the Scriptures).
BUT – this should not be the big point. The big point is Jesus was resurrected and accepted on the day of the wave sheaf offering.
NIV 9 Romans 9 v 9 to 11 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Note: we are reconciled by Jesus death, but SAVED through His life.

The Resurrection of the Dead 1 Cor 15
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
So, let us all keep the Feast of First Fruits (Jewish name) / Easter Sunday (pagan name), or give it a good COG name – but let’s keep and celebrate if we truly consider ourselves Christian. Our Savior is risen as the first of the first fruits on the wave sheaf offering day – the day after the Sabbath – the first day of the week.
(And if you are a COG leader, remember HWA wrote and said the Church was always willing to change if shown it was in error – like Pentecost Sunday and divorce and remarriage.)

Submitted by TLA

61 comments:

Sweetblood777 said...

The Sabbsth being referenced is not the seventh day Sabbath, but the First Day of Unleavened Bread. It was always performed on the 16th of Nissan.

Kevin McMillen said...

TLA, while I understand your point I think you're just grasping at things to argue.

If God thought the wave sheaf day should have been a day off without work, don't you think that he'd have commanded a Holy convocation and no work on that day? Can you tell me exactly how the Jews keep the day today since you imply that it's something they currently practice?

I know several in the cog who knowingly, on the day, recognize the wave sheaf day as Jesus' resurrection day. But again, if God wanted us to acknowledge it by taking the day off, going to "church', or whatever he'd have told us.

All you're doing in this post is trying to establish a requirement that isn't there. Again, I understand your point, the WCG pretty much ignored Jesus' resurrection, but not all of the church's of God do the same.

Being out of the WCG for over 27 years, I contemplate the day when it arrives, and I know several that do the same.

I was considering jokingly asking you what you thought that we should do on that day, maybe hang matzo from trees or maybe roll matzo balls. 😇

But I don't want to trivialize the point, the day is important, we should acknowledge it, and I really do think many in the cog do, but do we have to go by TLA's rules? Do we have to take the day off, do we have to assemble, do we have to make it another Easter?

We get bitched at for putting together Winter Family Weekends, getting called out as just keeping a "church ordained form of Christmas" when there is nothing that even resembles xmas. Oh, we have to tell the hotels that they can't decorate if they want our business. Ok, got it.

If we did organize some kind of celebration for wave sheaf day we'd get bitched at for keeping Easter.

But I do understand, as a type of journalist on this site you have to keep the presses rolling, got to make up something to complain about.

Personally I'd rather read one of Dennis' evolution posts.

Nothing personal TLA, I like you and most of your contributions to this blog but I had to voice my opinion on this one.

Kevin McMillen

Anonymous said...

You domt have to be a part of a COG to ignore totally made up days. I don't celebrate mother or fathers day either... Why? Because who cares? Just because everyone else does something and says its "important" doesn't mean I have to be a sheep and do it to.

This goes double for catholic and Jewish holidays.

At least with a holy day commanded by god (of which Easter is not) I have a reason to base my belief on.

Or is any day made by anyone a valid day? If so you are all a bunch of stinkers for not celebrating pizza and beer day. Bah humbug.

Opinionated said...

Samuel Kitchen and the rest of COG land reject Christ. Why would they celebrate this day?

DennisCDiehl said...

1 Cor.15:3-4
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins ACCORDING TO THE SCRITURES, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES? How the story of Jesus came to be might not be as "eyewitnessed" as we would have liked.

What scriptures was Paul talking about? There were no NT scriptures so he only can be talking about the Old Testament. Paul understood that the entire death and resurrection could be implied from the Old Testament scriptures and not in space and time, as I have said over the years. Paul's Christ, and Paul comes FIRST in his letters in the NT, was crucified in the heavens by the archons, principalities and powers. Never having met any real Jesus, knowing nothing of the unwritten Gospels accounts where his Jesus which was the Cosmic Christ in the Heavens, was brought to earth literally in the Gospel Story.

Paul's Christ would die for our sins according to the scripture in Isaiah 53:5 (Isiah 53 was a goldmine for defining Christ but is originally about the Nation of Israel but let's spare us). Psalm 16:10 gives Paul his concept of days in the tomb. Anyone knew that after four days decay would set in. (John 11:39). Psalm 22 gave authors all they needed to know about what Jesus could say from the cross though they were not there literally to hear it.

The Old Testament were the scriptures that Paul used to tell his story of Jesus. The Gospel writers did the very same. They did this because they did not know what actually happened in history, if it literally happened at all. The entire story of Jesus/Christ can be seen as a story "spoken of by the scriptures."

When Paul says, "What I have received..." he means in vision. Paul, the Pharisee of Pharisees and above his fellows, as he describes himself, living in Jerusalem, evidently never met any real Jesus there nor had the Gospel Pharisees ever heard of him.

All that aside, TLA is very right in his view of the lack of focus and getting the point of Jesus or even the meaning of the Holydays as assigned to by the Church. Practice took precedence over meaning and meaning over being. . They get lost in how and not why and there is still the left overs from RCM who spent his life mocking the "Namby Pamby" , as he said, Jesus of the Sunday Christians. He loved the Rod of Iron, Revelation Jesus because he was himself a Rod of Iron, in his mind.

The Churches of God, and they don't seem to know this, are Jewish Christian Churches of the Peter, James and John persuasion. The winners in modern Christianity are the Pauline Gentile version and the conflict between to the two is still going on today with the rise and fall of WCG. They are not the same and Paul can never be successfully wed to the Jewish Christian version.

Anonymous said...

Due 12 v 30

Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. Pretty simple instruction.

Byker Bob said...

No doubt, this was another one of those “HWA was God’s Apostle” type thingies. Isn’t that always the ultimate “proof” in Armstrongism?

BB

Anonymous said...

"It is because all the Christian churches call it Easter Sunday."


smooth move there, but it doesn't hold water....."Easter Sunday" doesn't always fall on the day of the wave sheaf...it has no connection to it whatsoever.

TLA said...

Always delightful to read Dennis's insights, even when I am not in agreement.
Life would be boring if we all thought the same.
I will respectfully disagree with you, Dennis on some of your ideas.
I have attended 2 different Messianic Jewish congregations - each has different ideas on whether the new covenant abolished the OT laws.
The WCG and splinters are not Jewish Christian churches - not even close to it. They are Protestant style churches separated from the others by their one true church doctrine - which they share with other one true churches. (And of course the COGs are splintered into many more one true Works.)
The Messianic Jewish believers who believe the Torah is still in force, do a much better job of reconciling Paul with the other Apostles, by examining Paul's writings from the Jewish perspective.
They believe that Paul was telling Gentiles they did not have to keep the Israelite covenant, but Jews still could keep it.
It appears from Acts, that Paul even made a Nazarite vow as an Apostle.

Acts 18 v18 Paul stayed on in Corinth for some time. Then he left the brothers and sisters and sailed for Syria, accompanied by Priscilla and Aquila. Before he sailed, he had his hair cut off at Cenchreae because of a vow he had taken.

Anonymous said...

And as usual, Dennis is full of mud.

Anonymous said...

There’s definitely scriptural evidence of a memorial/something’s done on that day. I’m seeing people mentioning that many of the COGs acknowledge it at least a little, but neither of my past COG affiliations acknowledged it. In fact, I had heard one particular sermon in UCG that basically twisted and turned and wiggled around in order to “prove” that it’s actually the same day as feast of weeks (Pentacost).
Naturally, this had to be done by cherry picking random scriptures here and there, because reading in context would’ve shot himself in the foot.
As for my time in LCG, I don’t recall them EVER mentioning it at all, either to explain it away OR to acknowledge. Just ignoring it.
I’m half in agreement with TLA, and half not; because I think that MAYBE some half of the ministers (I’m being generous here) were aware of this day being a thing (although, shame on them if they know, because the ones I’ve heard are all trying to explain it away) and have tried to cover it up for fear of rocking the proverbial boat if they had to create a memorial at the same time as Easter. They’d lose 3/4 or more of their following.
Where I differ from TLA’s article is that I honestly believe that a vast majority don’t acknowledge it as being a separate day because they don’t KNOW it. Just the ministers I’ve had personal experience with (and I’ve had a lot...troublemaker and all that), they knew what they’d been told to know. And they dissuade anybody including themselves from looking into anything beyond the given narrative.
If HWA didn’t say it, it’s not so.
That’s just my two cents.

Tonto said...

Often and Usually, the Wave Sheaf Sunday and Easter fall on the same day. But not always. Easter is actually calculated similar to Passover, being the first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox. Not to open a can of worms, but there are inter ca e Wave Sheaf for sure, but certainly , nothing about traditional Easter activities, and the Wave Sheaf are connected scripturally.

The resurrection of Christ arguably did not occur on Sunday within COG constructs, and arguably so.

Anonymous said...

Kevin McMillen, April 2, 2019 at 4:01 AM responded to TLA with the following words:

"......while I understand your point I think you're just grasping at things to argue.

If God thought the wave sheaf day should have been a day off without work, don't you think that he'd have commanded a Holy convocation and no work on that day? Can you tell me exactly how the Jews keep the day today since you imply that it's something they currently practice?

I know several in the cog who knowingly, on the day, recognize the wave sheaf day as Jesus' resurrection day. But again, if God wanted us to acknowledge it by taking the day off, going to "church', or whatever he'd have told us.

All you're doing in this post is trying to establish a requirement that isn't there......"

Yes, TLA is striving to establish a requirement that does not exist; however, scriptures relative to the wave sheaf day are true, but that day is not a holy day or needs a holy convocation.

Perhaps TLA, like so many xcogroup leaders, in their own established SELF-righteousness, set up their own standards of righteousness...and think all others must follow them.

Romans 10:3
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

The United Ass., living group, phile/Flurry, cogwAss., Weinland do similar things when they treat all 7 days of the Feast of Tab as God requiring a Holy convocation, when the scriptures required no such thing.

Because of another Spirit (James 4:5; 2 Tim 2:26; I John 3:8; Rev 12:9, etc.) there exists today another Jesus, another gospel, and most groups cannot reunite. Just too much confusion, and that is despite the fact most can't see how they daily wrestle, in their blindness, the wrong enem(ies). Eph 6:12
So many still say "Follow Me," and even when they obviously aren't in sync/tune with the very scriptures they quote.

The scattered confused state of the sheep, as predicted, continues on, but it won't forever remain this way:

John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

And time will tell...

John

Anonymous said...

Lev 23:12 And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf a he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the Lord.

I asked in another thread, but no one answers, so here again: If the wave sheaf represents Christ, then what did the he lamb represents?

Dennis Diehl said...

TLA most scholars feel the Jewish-Gentile accommodations were because all agreed time was short etc. All thing common was because time was short. Both concepts were not for a failed Second Coming in their life times and one form, Pauline, would become more appealing to more people over the long haul with Jewish thinking one the church of God types and Jewish perspectives fading in numbers and influence. Once wealthy Greeks came to the Pauline view " all things common" became "screw that!" 😊

Byker Bob said...

So we’re saying that the covenants and their application are so complicated that we need a lawyer to interpret and explain them to us? And for some, Herbert W. Armpitstrong was accepted as their attorney?

BB

TLA said...

The lamb could represent Christ. Or could just be a sacrifice. They sacrificed a lot of animals in those days.
One comment compared me to COG leaders - I have never held a leadership position in the church, and have no desire to start my own group.
Banned is good because we have a variety of beliefs and opinions and excellent moderation to make sure things don't get out of hand like they did in the 90s in the various COG forums.

Passover as celebrated by the COGs is not a Holy Day.
The wave sheaf offering was not a holy day.

But why not recognize it? If you believe Jesus was resurrected and accepted by the Father, then this is the day - Sunday - same day of the week as Pentecost.

Kevin McMillen said...

TLA asks "why not recognize it?" and I ask, how? Jesus commanded us to take the bread and wine, we believe it's to be done on Passover while others do it every week, and others every quarter, that explains why we do something on Passover, we see it as a command to eat bread and drink wine picturing Christ's death. We don't do it all day long, most work on the Passover day.

So just how are we to "recognize" the wave sheaf? We know what day it is, we know it pictures Jesus being accepted by the Father, is that not recognition enough? Or do you really want us to color matzo balls and roll them all day long?

Kevin McMillen

Anonymous said...

The covenants are simple.

Stephen Racz said...

For a number of years I have recognised the meaning of the wave sheaf offering in Leviticus 23 and our need to observe it in the form of a service. Lev 23 states it shall be kept as a statute throughout your generations FOREVER v14 on the morrow after the Sabbath v11 clearly Sunday and yet the old WCG and its splinter groups deny that it needs to be observed. It shows the dangers of a church and its offshoots that get involved in group think, that they have it all and there is nothing that's needs to be questioned or reevaluated. Its sad when the blindingly obvious is pointed out that it is still rejected yet this event and the keeping of it is as important as the Passover itself. Without this event, its symbolism and its meaning our hope is in vain. The denial of its observance reflects a true spiritual blindness. All one can do if in these organisations is to keep it in the privacy of ones home in the hope this issue along with others will one day be addressed and implemented although I doubt that will happen if in one of the splinter groups.

Kevin McMillen said...

Herbert Armstrong didn't understand the covenants either or he wouldn't have built a legalistic cult!

Only one covenant ever "required" law keeping and that one started at Sinai and ended at the cross.

However, our creator our God requires law keeping. The soul that sinneth it shall die. Covenant has absolutely nothing to do with what our creator requires of us.

The sole purpose of the New Covenant in Jesus' blood (N.C.) is to forgive our law breaking. He didn't come to give is a free "break the law all you want" card. He came to redeem us from the death sentence imposed by our breaking the law.

The N.C. does not require law keeping, but our creator does. It is still sin to break the law. Again, covenants have absolutely nothing to do with it.

If the N.C. "required" law keeping then the first time we sin it's done, over. The N.C. requires faith in Jesus Christ and it's the means by which our sins are forgiven. We confess our sins to Jesus and he is faithful to forgive them.

The main thing to remember is that God still requires law keeping and the requirement isn't because of any covenant agreement, it's because he is our creator. And he's provided a means to be forgiven of law breaking and that's the New Covenant in Jesus' blood.

Kevin McMillen

The

Anonymous said...

Lev 23:12 - if this he lamb represents Christ, then why was this he lamb wasn't waved?

. . . and if waving means going up to heaven and back, then why the 3000 on Pentecost (Acts 2) didn't similarly go up to heaven (also waved, Lev 23:20), each saying 'don't touch me' along the way and back to earth upon receiving the holy spirit?

SL said...

They both do.

Hoss said...

The only COG minister who I heard explain the significance of the Feast of Firstfruits was Ron Dart. That was years after the collapse of the WCG, where I think it was confused with Pentecost as a day symbolizing the first fruits.
And of course there are two different ways to calculate Firstfruits (and then Pentecost) - whether it's the day after the weekly Sabbath or the day after the first day of ULB... The Sadducees used the first calculation (weekly) and the Pharisees the second (ULB).

Zippy said...

The Armstrong sacrificial system works the same whether Jesus was resurrected or not...

Anonymous said...

Tonto said: "The resurrection of Christ arguably did not occur on Sunday within COG constructs, and arguably so."

True the COGs of HWA all project the view HWA taught that the crucifixion and resurrection occurred on Wednesday and Saturday respectively even though there's much more solid evidence both undermine it and wholly disproving it. But, the Armstrong COGs love their traditions as mandated by HWA even when they contradict the very words of the Holy Bible they claim they uphold. SMH

Kevin McMillen said...

Tell me, the sunset ending the Sabbath and beginning the next day, which day does it belong to?

Poor translations kill understanding. Every time the transliterated Greek phrase "mia ton sabbaton" is translated first day of the week, misunderstanding continues. It has nothing to do with the first day of the week.

In english it's first of the weeks. Meaning, with seven weeks to count, they were beginning the first week in the count. Every single day during that first week was within the "first of the werks".

When Paul later told the Corinthians to take up a collection for those in Judea on the "first of the weeks", they had the entire six working days of that first week of harvest to work on their offering. It wasn't just one day as most suppose.

Every time the phrase mia ton sabbaton is mistranslated first day of the week you'll notice Pentecost always follows. Meaning it's not a name for 52, "first days of the week" as most assume. It's really the first week of the seven week harvest.

I could show you another mistranslation that has everyone thinking that the day that Jesus was talking to the disciples on the road to Emmaus was the third day since his death, but it really wasn't. Most people don't care about accurate translations though. If it fits their theology they don't care.

The WCG explanation for the road to Emmaus was dead wrong too.

Kevin McMillen

Anonymous said...

Re the statement: "...all the Christian churches call it Easter Sunday."

Actually only in the Anglosphere is this Christian festival referred to as “Easter” (possibly due to the month in the Anglo-Saxon calendar it fell ie “Eostremonth”). In the rest of the Latin and Greek speaking world it is referred to as “Pascha” ie “Passover Sunday.” The reason I believe is due to the debate (circa the “Quartodeciman controversy”) leading to whether Christians should observe a Passover celebration similar to the Judaics commemorating Christ’s death or a Passover Sunday celebration of His resurrection. The latter won out in the West due to the anti-Jewish sentiments within the Church that sought to extricate as much “Jewish” elements from Christianity as possible. If Western Christians were to observe Passover commemorative of His death it would entail following the Jewish calendar and thus the establishment of the calendrical rules for celebrating Passover week and Passover Sunday not subject to the Jewish calendar and as separate from Jewish Passover as possible. Of course there is now calls for reform of the date of Easter so all Christians, including Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox to have one united Christian calendar.

TLA said...

I have been doing some research on keeping Passover on the 14th versus the 15th.
We know Jesus kept the Passover on the 14th - or did He?
One writer points out that when Judas went out, some thought he went out to buy provisions - a shopping trip on Passover night? The writer thinks it was just a supper.
I found 2 writers who refer to the Galilean tradition - one keeping the Passover earlier and the other a special pre-Passover feast.
http://religiousaffections.org/articles/articles-on-worship/was-the-last-supper-a-passover-meal/
https://blog.israelbiblicalstudies.com/jewish-studies/torah-portion-in-the-real-time-3-the-passover-lamb/
It is also pointed out that John writes it was before the Passover.
There is also no mention of the Passover lamb which was part of the meal requirement.
Jesus died on Nisan 14 at the time they were killing the Passover lambs - before the first Holy Day which they called Passover.
The Day of Atonement sometimes is mentioned in the Bible as starting on the evening of the 9th. Everyone I know of considers it to be the night and day of the 10th.
Passover is sometimes written in the Bible as the 15th.
One of the COG arguments is that the original Passover was eaten at night and no one was to leave their house that night, and the Exodus began a day later on "the night to be remembered".
The problem with this scenario, is it requires 2.5 million people and millions of sheep, cattle, and donkeys to all leave over night - after the 2.5 million had spoiled the Egyptians.
One estimate of total world population at the time was about 40 million with only about 2 to 4 million in Egypt.
http://accuracyingenesis.com/exodus_population.html
Look at the news today of the massive flood of people approaching our southern border - I think it is currently up to 60,000 per month - with modern transportation and no livestock.

Right now, I personally, am no longer sure I had the dates right on the Bible Passover observance.

For those of you who are still certain Passover is the 14th, you have cogwriter (Bob Thiel) backing you up, who writes the Jews do not understand their own scriptures.
And that is the COG problem in a nutshell - "we" know the Bible better than anyone else.
Not always right - but never in doubt!

DennisCDiehl said...

Anon said: "The latter won out in the West due to the anti-Jewish sentiments within the Church that sought to extricate as much “Jewish” elements from Christianity as possible."

Passover tends to celebrate the Lamb of God and Easter the Ham of God from what I recall about Easter Sunday dinner. :)

DennisCDiehl said...

You would think a real God could more clearly inspire just exactly how and when to do things it required for itself to be properly loved, respected and worshipped. Between the how and when's of the crucifixion and resurrection accounts and the when and how of Holy Day keeping it would not be so open for confusion, the author of which God is said not to be.

Kevin McMillen said...

TLA, the Passover was killed on the 14th but eaten on the night beginning the 15th. The Jews have the timing correct.I

Now whether their calendar is correct is another story that I really don't care to debate with those who use their own calendars. I doubt their calendar is the same one that God gave Moses, something that I concluded way back in 1993 or before, but do we have the authority to establish our own calendars? I think not.

I personally think the Kairite calendar is closest, but I prefer to err on the side of fellowship so I use the Rabbinic calendar as most others do.

If doing everything perfectly is the goal we're all in trouble. I merely do the best I can, if that's not good enough for legalists, both law keeping legalists and law denier legalists then too bad, I don't care.

If you don't believe that the law is to be kept, and think that means you can't be a legalist, you're sorely mistaken. These type of people are constantly arguing with us.

Why do you wear mixed clothing? Why don't you go to Jerusalem for the feasts? Why do you go to restaurants on the sabbath? Etc, etc, etc.

The answer, I'm not under the Mt. Sinai covenant. If you're unable to understand that God's law exists outside of the Mt. Sinai covenant then we've just uncovered why you don't understand. Maybe you should try reading Gen. 26:5 and tell me which laws, commands, judgements, etc. did Abraham keep and when exactly did God tell him what they were?

Show me one scripture in Genesis that tells anyone that adultery was a sin. We have scriptures stating that it was, but we have none of God telling Adam that it was a sin to commit adultery, or anyone else later on.

The problem with most law deniers is they demand a list of laws from the garden before they will admit they exist. There are none. They don't exist. Does that mean God never gave laws in the garden? If you believe that then you don't understand that Genesis is merely a short historic version of creation.

If you need a more thorough list of laws before you'll obey, you're a legalist.

And before I'm accused of telling others what they must obey, I'd never do that. What each person obeys should be between them and God, no one else. But are you being honest with yourself? That is the main question.



Kevin McMillen

Anonymous said...

No where in the bible does Jesus say "take bread and wine". Go look. He said "drink wine" and "eat bread".

What is the difference? When you say things that aren't in the bible over and over again you get used it doing it and end up accepting more and more that isn't there.

Passover isn't a magic Catholic right it's eating and drinking.

Anonymous said...

Me and a few others have read the same thing in the bible. Passover is on the 15th. There is no such special observance called "night to be much observed" which is only stated that way in one translation. In context this one verse refers to Passover.

Also there is only one verse that is quoted as being used to say the exodus all happened at night... And it could also be read that that was the moment when the Passover event happened and freed them... So its not definitive.

Anonymous said...

Why do you argue these things when you are an Aethists and don't believe any of this any ways?

Anonymous said...

Kevin

I've looked into the calendar thing as well. I thinks its really simple. A calendar is literally defined as a table of dates. Therefore there is no calendar in the bible. If we try to argue about how to do something about something that doesn't exist we will get endless debate.

What is in the bible is the commands on when to observe the annual holy days. We are told to use the sun and the moon. We can debate how to use them but at least it would based on something actually in the bible.

TLA said...

I am coming to the same conclusion - that the Jews have it right.
Scripture gets terribly complicated when you twist it to support your non standard beliefs.

Since Jesus is our Passover sacrifice, then He needed to die the afternoon before Passover started.
Almost all the Christian churches (including Messianic Judaism) keep the Lord's supper / communion as a separate ritual - some weekly, some quarterly, and probably other variations.
Paul wrote that it was not to be accompanied by a meal.
In the COGs we wanted our cake and eat it too - so the COGs have an annual communion and call it Passover and the next day have Passover/Seder and call it Night to be Remembered.

Acts 15 gave the Gentiles a very few legalistic requirements.

Dennis said...

The Church of God view of the "simplicity that is in Christ" whose yoke is easy and burden light is complicated , hard and heavy

Dennis said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kevin McMillen said...

9:13 Maybe you should dust off your bible for a change. 😇

Mar 14:22 - And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.

Kevin McMillen

Kevin McMillen said...

9:23 The Passover lamb was eaten on the 15th but it was killed on the 14th. The bible says the 14th day of the first month is the Lord's Passover, so it is incorrect to say the Passover is the 15th, though it is eaten on the 15th, the first day of unleavened bread.

And the bible most certainly calls that a night of vigil, however you want to translate vigil I don't care. There is nothing wrong with the Night to be Observed as we have "traditionally" kept it as long as you know it's not commanded. It's when traditions turn in to commands when they become wrong. Just like our tradition of going somewhere for the Feast of Tabernacles, nothing wrong until the man at the pulpit claims that it's a commanded assembly and they picked out the place that God has placed his name. Pure b.s.

Kevin McMillen

Kevin McMillen said...

9:29 The problem is, if you want to gather with others, just who has the authority to call the new moon? Or the moon of green ears. If one wants to be legalistic it gets complicated.

If one wants to just do the best they can they merely use the Rabbinic calendar imo. You're free to come to a different conclusion, it matters not to me.

Nope Dennis it's not that complicated unless someone chooses to complicate it. As many do, both inside and out of Armstrongism.

Kevin McMillen

Kevin McMillen said...

TLA, Paul didn't condemn them for having a meal, it was how they conducted the meal that was the problem. Much like being the first in line at a potluck and filling two plates for yourself knowing there isn't enough for everyone. Wrong in any situation not just Passover.

Kevin McMillen

Kevin McMillen said...

TLA, is it your understanding that all that the gentiles had to obey were the few things in Acts 15:20? Why do you call them legalistic? There's a difference between obeying laws and being legalistic.

What is your understanding of how this verse fits the context of the chapter?

Act 15:21 - For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Kevin McMillen

Anonymous said...

Kevin,

"Mar 14:22 - And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body."

If all Passover was was "take", then you could sit and hold the wine and bread in your lap. But with just "eat/drink", take is assumed. "Taking" doesn't mean anything, it's religious superstitious speak.

Kevin McMillen said...

1:46 quit being ignorant, you knew exactly what I meant. I'm not about to write scores of paragraphs just because someone gets an itch up their ass and wants to nit pick.

Kevin McMillen

DennisCDiehl said...

Acts 15:20-21 New International Version (NIV)
20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

….Kevin McMillen said...
TLA, is it your understanding that all that the gentiles had to obey were the few things in Acts 15:20? Why do you call them legalistic? There's a difference between obeying laws and being legalistic.

What is your understanding of how this verse fits the context of the chapter?

Act 15:21 - For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day."

Actually, Yes, the Gentiles were just expected to obey the Noahide rules laid down in Acts 15. Verse 21 is NOT to say that, as WCG said, "Because the Gentiles can get all the other rules every sabbath in the synagogues" etc. That is a mistaken view.

I covered this point in my very last Feast Sermon on "The Politics of the NT" in Mytrtle Beach. Recall that the problem was that "Acts 15:1 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.”

After all sides were heard, the Noahide rules on how a Gentile becomes a Jew were applied to how a gentile becomes a Christian. Same rules. The comment in 21 is to say that the original folk worried about the demise of Moses and Judaism if the Gentiles did not follow Moses was not ever going to be a problem. Moses was read every Sabbath in the Synagogue and will always be there. Admitting Gentiles to the Jewish Christian Church under the Noahide rules was not a threat to Judaism. :21 is NOT that the Gentile converts would go on then to learn all the rest of what they had to do in the Synagogue every Sabbath. No! That was not the meaning. It was merely a statement to those concerned about Moses/Judaism not to worry about it going away.

The other point is that all expect the imminent return of Jesus so all this Jew/Gentile stuff was temporary until then. They did not envision no return and having to deal with a Christian Church and how to meld Judaism with Gentiles over the next 2000 years and counting.

DennisCDiehl said...

and too... The sermon, The Politics of the NT was given showing the conflicts between the Jewish, Peter, James and John and the Gentile Apostle Paul. I showed how and where in the NT each took potshots at each other and told their readers not to follow the others but themselves. I've said this before, but John was excellent at sending the message in his Gospel that Judas betrayed/ Peter denied/ don't follow Peter. James roasted Paul over his views on the law vs Grace in Romans.

Sitting on the front row staring at me during the sermon was Dave Albert, Festival Speaker and my former Epistle of Paul teacher. When I was done, I could see him making a bee line to me and felt "here it comes!" Dave told me that was the most clear and interesting take on all the conflicts in the NT between the Apostles he had ever heard and we had to go to dinner to discuss it more. We did and discussed it for two or three more hours. Now, however, he won't speak to me anymore after several attempts to be in touch. He even lives near me now. Or I him.

DennisCDiehl said...

My point at the time in the sermon during the Tkach era was that there was nothing new under the sun with regards to Church politics and conflicts over Jewish and Gentle perspectives and how to incorporate them into "all one body weeee. One in hope and doctrine, One in chariteeeee" and so on.

RSK said...

For some reason, I'm picturing overzealous aspiring ministurds in the back rooms of rental halls waving those yellow offering envelopes in esctasy.

Bill said...

Anonymous April 3, 2019 at 9:23 AM said: "Me and a few others have read the same thing in the bible. Passover is on the 15th. There is no such special observance called "night to be much observed" which is only stated that way in one translation. In context this one verse refers to Passover.

Also there is only one verse that is quoted as being used to say the exodus all happened at night... And it could also be read that that was the moment when the Passover event happened and freed them... So its not definitive."

Re NTBMO I concur my friend! So I'm glad I'm not alone! :-)

Anonymous said...

Bill

I think that when God's people read the scriptures plainly they all come to very, very similar conclusions. It's really too bad this has been discouraged over the years. You aren't alone. :-)

Anonymous said...

Kevin:

"1:46 quit being ignorant, you knew exactly what I meant. I'm not about to write scores of paragraphs just because someone gets an itch up their ass and wants to nit pick."

I am not nit picking, I am repeating what the bible actually says. I don't think we should be upset when it's pointed out to us, I think we should feel a little encouraged that we've learned one more thing.

To say "take the passover" leads to things like "the Passover is the most solemn observance of the year", yet this is also not in the bible anywhere. We are supposed to care about the small problems (you call nit picking), they are the easy things to solve. But if we can't fix small problems, how can we fix big problems?

Anonymous said...

I'm curious as to which part of "the 14th day of the first month" you don't understand???

Anonymous said...

Me too:

"night to be much observed" is a description of that night, a memorable night, which is that same Passover night!

I have been observing this way for the last 26 years.

Anonymous said...

"I'm curious as to which part of "the 14th day of the first month" you don't understand???"

Same as atonement... Let 23:32 says it starts on the 9th day but we keep it on the 10th day. No different. Passover is a 7 dat feast starting on the 15th... Or the evening of the 14th. Atonement is on the 10th day starting on the evening of the 9th.

If you read the study papers of anyone who keeps NTBMO they have to jump through a lot of logical hoops to prove their theory instead of just dollowing the commanded times.

Anonymous said...

"I have been observing this way for the last 26 years."

I commend you on your faith and courage to follow god directly. Its common for men to be angry when you don't agree with them and it can be hard to withstand the presure to conform.

Anonymous said...

3:34 AM -- thanks.

I manage to do Bible study to a small group and we learn so much more. It's a great blessing, I testify.

The originator of the idea that 'erev' is twilight came from the Samaritans, whose idea later penetrated the Sadducees, the Kararites and the last century, the CoGs.

'erev' is the evening time where the Jews killed the evening lamb since the time of Moses. If Moses had any doubt about its timing, he had full access to ask YHVH who speaks to him between the cherubim!

"the last 26 years!"

Anonymous said...

26 years,

I don't know about the history of the words but the scriptures are consistent on the dates and timings of things if you look carefully and don't try to make it say something it doesn't say.

I would be careful about relying on history to guide our understanding of the commandments though. We may find a person who knows history far better than ourselves and could use it to argue against God's commandments.

Anonymous said...

"Atonement is on the 10th day starting on the evening of the 9th."

yes, as the 9th ends and the 10th begins...same for passover, as the 13th ends and the 14th begins....the 10th is Atonement, the 14th is Passover.

Unleavened Bread is a 7 day feast starting on the 15th, the night Israel left Egypt.

Passover is a moment in time, the sacrifice.

they are not the same.

Anonymous said...

No where in the bible does God command passover on the 13th.