"We will counsel and advise our Creator Father - we will have suggestions and opinions which will actually help God the Father"
Unbelievably, this is what we taught as the truth. That we would be EQUAL with God. And this was our aspiration - to rise to the level of which we had the ability to counsel God.
Robert Kuhn wrote this article in 1971 in the "Tomorrow's World magazine". In the article Robert argues:
- Human beings would become individual personalities in "the God Family".
- We were born with the express purpose of becoming equal with the Creator of the Universe
- We will become qualitatively equal with God, not quantitatively equal with God.
- Being equal has nothing to do with power, intelligence, authority
- We will be changed into new, individual "God-Beings"
Read the entire article here: What It Means To Be Equal With God
Let's discuss this.
Do you feel this was blasphemous? On track? Was this Satan's sin, or was this some kind of new inspiration? When you see this title, what is the first thing that comes into your mind?
This doctrine was at the core of Armstrongism and is still taught by some of the Splinter groups today. As such, it's worthy to delve into.
submitted by SHT
41 comments:
If a person would really understand America, Americas democracy, its true founders and its founding principles.
The question posed, if ordinary people could rise to the highest realm of sovereignty and liberty, guided by the rule of law, would not be a strange question at all.
"Citizens" (citoyen, burghers) to rule, as kings and priests did, over the earth.
If one believes mythical America where a bunch of puritans decided to start a new nation, one would be able to reason "blasphemy" or other coded christian philosophy.
Nck
"Rule the world", as in "lead the world into the light" where all men are equal under and before the law.
Remember how central it was to armstrongism that even god was bound by law. NEO has talked about it as the armstrongist demiurg. But I m not sure if he understands completely how sovereignty lies within the citizen. Expressed through his actions.
Nck
There's two parts to this. First the marketing part whereby members are encouraged to endlessly financially sacrifice and endure all manner of minister abuse to become equal with God.
The second part is the wishful bully attitude of 'don't think you're better than me.' That is, you reap what you sow is ignored. The bible is clear that some will rule over more cities than others. It's a merit based society.
We are to be born into the kingdom. Babies do not have the same skills and abilities as their parents. These must be acquired through hard work. That 'baby Gods' can can have the same knowledge and abilities as a being trillions of years old is ridiculous.
Not ONE statement by Kuhn is Biblical!!!
"Being equal has nothing to do with power, intelligence, authority"... If you are equal to GOD then you will have all of these qualities so saying it has nothing to do with this then what qualities do you have to make yourself equal to God!!???
Christ is subject to God and not God's Equal, so, humans will now be above Christ!!!???
Sounds like someone that said something along the same lines:
"I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
"I will be like the most High"!!!!!
4:22 AM, Well said. I absolutely agree with you on that.
For what it's worth, the ideas in Kuhn's article are shared by some Kabbalah-following Jewish sects. How interesting that Kuhn uses the Rothschilds as an example, but doesn't touch the esoteric Jewish writings that would also support his point!
Bitter Bob will of course point to the Freibergs article to support his own use of the Popul Vuh and other Mayan texts.
"That 'baby Gods' can can have the same knowledge and abilities as a being trillions of years old is ridiculous."
I find this remark interesting in light of "old founders" looking down on the next generation while actually staying too long in office and destroying their company in the process.
I think your idea is more ridiculous than a belief system wherein God would be an ever renewing lean and agile start up. As a matter of fact God "started up anew multiple times with new adams, learning in the process, taking huge risks, experimenting with the evolutionary process." Perhaps Satan was just "a cynic old geezer" that needed to be let go in order to propel the company forward.
God must be dynamic instead of static organizing new life and enjoying everybodies unique role and abilities without considering "seniority". Although a "level of maturity" must be achieved.
I also believe that the ones who believe what and as I just proposed are least likely to be abused by any minister also. But are able to establish "the rule of law" for all.
nck
If there is one book that HWA continually reminded the youth about it was the book that had influenced him. Benjamin Franklins autobiography.
I found the text below in a one second google search but there must be many more and better articles.
It deals with small but finite part where man evolved to god status. When technological singularity is achieved in the very near future man will have acquired all attributes that god is described with. (except for elon musk having to take us to mars)
The political philosophy of the Enlightenment is the unambiguous antecedent of modern Western liberalism: secular, pluralistic, rule-of-law-based, with an emphasis on individual rights and freedoms. Note that none of this was really present in the Renaissance, when it was still widely assumed that kings were essentially ordained by God, that monarchy was the natural order of things and that monarchs were not subject to the laws of ordinary men, and that the ruled were not citizens but subjects.
It was the Enlightenment, and thinkers who embodied its ideas, like Voltaire and Benjamin Franklin (I think it was Eugen Weber once described the sage of Philadelphia as the epitome of the Enlightenment thinker), who were the intellectual force behind the American Revolution and the French Revolution, and who really inspired the ideas behind the great political documents of the age like the American Declaration of Independence and the French Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen.
nck
Reminds me of an old Star Trek original series episode where they had to deal with Apollo, a human given god like powers...
https://youtu.be/Rz508DAx68U?t=2m19s
(Copy Link and then paste into browser)
Reminds me of an old Star Trek original series episode where they had to deal with Apollo, a human given god like powers...
https://youtu.be/Rz508DAx68U?t=2m19s
(Copy Link and then paste into browser)
That article speaks volumes on how the author has/had absolutely no idea on Who God Is! The audacity to even THINK that we could ever be equal to God, to even speak it, write about it, boggles my mind. It just futher exposes exactly who the god of this cult is. God loves us so much that He wants a relationship with us, a relationship of love. We are to follow His commandments of love God and love our neighbors. With Him in us (Gal. 2:20) He produces HIS fruits (love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, gentleness, kindness, faithfulness and self control) in us so we can live in love. To be "equal" to Him? Never!
Rons 4:22 comment wins this post. Trying to be equal with God the Father has been tried before and we all know how that turned out.
Stand over there in the corner for we are more holier than thou.
I think most here would be even more familiar with one of the most enduring statements of the United States Declaration of Independence:-
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal…’
Just think that one through for a moment.
3.00am made the comment:-
“Babies do not have the same skills and abilities as their parents. These must be acquired through hard work. That 'baby Gods' can have the same knowledge and abilities as a being trillions of years old is ridiculous.”
So while it is true that physical babies do not have the same skills and abilities as their parents, does that mean they are not equal? And as a baby grows and develops, so to it acquires some of the skills and abilities that its parents already have.
The article is stating the same idea for mankind’s future. Clearly a ‘new-born’ spirit being, coming into the family of God will not have the same skills and abilities of God the Father, or Jesus Christ. Obviously not. But does that mean they are not equal as a being, in the same way that all of mankind are equal with each other as beings, but with varying skills and abilities?
As with physical babies, spiritual ‘babies’ can also learn and acquired skills and abilities too. But that doesn’t mean that while they learn and develop they are somehow unequal, any more than a baby is somehow unequal to an adult as a fellow member of the human race.
All animals are equal but some are more equal than others - George Orwell, Animal Farm
But "God's Government" is hierarchical, according to WCG dogma...
there are but two spirits: that of the creature and that of the Creator...if we retain the spirit of the creature then all we have to look forward to is death, for we are but animals what have chosen the spirit of devils...
but if we instead choose the Spirit of the Creator then we can live forever, and we will also judge angels, for there is no limit to the generosity of the Creator;
the devil hates this prospect, and does work through scoffers to denigrate the very concept of Christ being the first born of many brethren...
c f ben yochanan
The Jewish leaders wanted to stone Jesus because He said He was the Son of God - making him equal to God. Jesus always said the Father is greater than him. What is so hard to understand that we will be born into the God family while still having the Father and Jesus greater than us?
Our human families follow the same structure - or at least they used to.
Many people teach many things (that are basically unknowable) as "truth". I call this proprietary gnosticism, and Armstrongism is largely based on such. Becoming God as God is God is one of the leaps that is part and parcel of the Armstrong proprietary gnosticism.
If we are ever to become "all-knowing", that opportunity would seemingly come to us at death. If our opportunities to make eternal decisions on our own behalf are also frozen upon our own death, as so many Christian religions teach, then we never have the opportunity in this lifetime to make an informed decision of the type that would be legally binding in a court of law. This presents quite the conundrum.
I'm thinking that this is probably why HWA's internet defense attorney, nck, has frequently pointed towards the hundred year period (second rez) as being far more logical from a human legal standpoint. It would also be reassuring to believe that if Armstrongism, against all logic and probability, actually does turn out to be God's way, and if the cretins of the Armstrong ministry were going to be our figurative dirty diapers for all eternity, we get to opt out through the Lake of Fire.
Connie wrote Star Trek ... Apollo, a human given god like powers..
It reminded me of the intelligence of the Borg collective, and the experience of Odo (the Changeling of DS9) and The Lake (another collective).
That article sounds like it was ripped from the book of Mormon. I take it HWA stole many of his false theories from the Mormons...
11:44 AM, Perhaps you should learn how to spell the president of the United States last name. It's Trump not drumpf.
That article sounds like it was ripped from the book of Mormon.
Some years ago a COG critic posted an article which analyzed the Mormon and HWA dogmas on man becoming God. They were sufficiently different (unlike HWA's and Allen's work) to show that HWA may have gotten the idea from the Mormons and re-engineered it, but it wasn't a straight copy. But we don't know Bob Kuhn's sources...
2:21
I am mostly breaking down god to "godly attributes". The opportunity to become all knowing is quite near through ai. Already some ai knows "our heart" better and before we do.
This will have legal repercusions also. Think insurance business or health care. What did we "know" about the effects of smoking in 1604 ad? Most christians would have "unknowingly" sinned in 1604. Are we, now unknowingly? Is a jury about justice or about judgment of and by peers and equals?
Regarding kuhns sources. He had degrees in brain science. Most religions have streams that are dedicated to "mystical union, unison" with god. Islam has the derwishes, christianity has its mysticists, jews might have kabbalah.
Wcg had the god powers by "extension of current talents". I heard many people who were sailors or accountants dream to be "over the said departments" in the wtm. Of course the kingdom was another ball game extending or administering "life" into the universe or light where there is darkness without the little wifey demanding to have us back from the pub at 6 for dinner.
She would have better things to do in the milkey way.
Nck
Hoss
All human organisations are formally/informally hierarchial. There's always a power/status hierarchy. Even in criminal gangs. Please name one exemption if you disagree.
Christ said that the chief seat belongs to the chief giver. Hierarchy, no?
Is there not some logic to the basis Robert Kuhn’s article, if you read what the Bible says?
- The Creator of the universe is the one who became Jesus Christ
- Jesus is equal with God the Father (as a being, not in authority)
- We are joint heirs with Christ.
- Whatever glory God the Father has given Christ, Christ will eventually give to those of mankind that follow God.
That would appear to be the logic of the Bible.
Of course, if you are actually impressed with the logic of the Bible is a completely different question.
1:52
Modern agile scrum teams have no formal hierarchy. The "master" serves as a catalyst. Perhaps modern developmemts might prompt religion to reconsider what truly constitutes being "a creator."
The abundant proof of evolution everywhere suggests God is a scrum master. It begs the question if a master needs a team with many different talents and viewpoints after the single purpose general direction has been agreed upon.
Of course such a creator God would need to hire skilled and able workers in their field. Without a formal hierarchy og course which would greatly hinder the creative process and progress altogether.
Nck
Well said anon12:09.
Nck
"Scrum teams are self organising?" Ha ha ha. Have a look how teams works. There's always a defacto leader to settle the disputes and differences of opinion as to how to organise. Also, some outside leader, formal or defacto chooses the scrum team and its goal.
Again this lawyer trait of thinking that truth and reality don't matter. As if everything is up for grabs.
"The unseen hand" is self organizing. The stock market is always right whatever you believe.
British people in a queue.
It takes an inherent understanding of the system one is involved with.
2 weeks ago I posted numerous experiments here on groups self organizing playing "pong" from "bang goes the theory."
Nck
When the mesopotamian agriculturalists organized it was the king who distributed the grain.
In english "lord" derives from "loaf ward" or "the one who distributes the bread."
When the ice receded people were stuck with a heavy load problem in transport.
I don't think a mighty leader ordered people to invent the wheel. Or that the wheel was gods gift to man.
Rather a group sat together and discussed the problem at hand. A rope maker, a wood carver and the chissel maker worked and experimented together until the wheel worked. No formal hierarchy.
HWA orginally intended the ministry and boards work that way guided by principles and spirit and common prayer. Of course the formal legal ownership of the corporate belonging to hwa destroyed all long term efforts.
Incredible rader did not understand that (long term) principle as one ponders how his children remember him.
The "family god" doctrine is cause of that perhaps. Everyone competing to fill the role of father and son without any comprehension that a family consists by the anchor of a woman.
In the end I believe 99 percent of wcg members were people with a distorted relationship with their father.
Nck
1:52 ~ The Grateful Dead.
Uhhh… Revelation says both Jesus and God the father are the Alpha and Omega and they are both worshipped, II Timothy says that Christ was before time began so in that context, a created being could never be equal to an eternally pre-existent one.
Am I missing something???
Nck
Your "unseen hand" and stock market prices are examples of market forces, ie like laws of nature whereby water seeks its equilibrium. These are not human organisations. Neither are people waiting their turn by queuing. Likewise creativity is not a organisation. Neither is the voluntary co operation of inventors in simple matters. Getting a painter to paint my house, is not a organisation.
Note that once companies form a research and development department, there is hierarchy in that department. Both in terms of assignments allocated, and skills/job grades in that department. I know this since I worked in such a department.
You're muddying the waters by mixing apples and oranges. As lawyers often do.
"Ronco said...
Uhhh… II Timothy says that Christ was before time began….
Am I missing something???”
Yes Ronco, you probably are missing something.
I take it you are reefing to 2 Tim 1v9.
In the Greek text there is no verb ‘began’, and the singular word ‘time’ does not appear. What Paul wrote was in effect ‘before the times of the ages’, which is a very different thing.
However that is also a rather different subject. I won’t start a discussion on ‘does time exist’ on this thread.
when Christ came in the form of flesh He came not only to Save, but to demonstrate the Desire of what the Elohim ultimately wants for all mankind: to impart the Power of God into we human beings and ultimately Convert us into spirit...
the caveat for us receiving this power is thus: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." John 14:12
and in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 it is shown that we will uultimately follow the same path of being Changed from flesh to God, just as the man Christ Jesus, the firstborn of many brethren, was also Changed...
Christ came, not only to Save, but to demonstrate to mankind what our Destiny is, if we Obey Him as He did the Father...
c f ben yochanan
Nicely put c f ben yochanan, thanks for that.
Which Greek translation though QuesterUCG Uk?
6.01 PM
Satan and his demons are spirit, so there's more to it. Immortality plus life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is more like it.
Anon 4.37am asks ‘which Greek translation’.
That wasn’t really my point, I would suggest that anyone interested should check out the Greek themselves – it’s not that difficult, as there are only three relevant words!
However since you ask:-
There are not many translations that use the exact words ‘before the times of the ages’, but both ‘Young’s Literal Translation’, and the more recent ‘Jubilee Bible 2000’ use exactly those words.
There are many others that give the same sense, such as ‘before the world began’ (used by the ‘King James Bible’ and several others), or ‘before the ages began’ (New Revised Standard amongst others).
My point is that the phrase ‘before time began’ is not in the original. The Bible nowhere says that God created time. It’s just an assumption that has been worked into several translations.
Why not check it out yourself?
"Why not check it out yourself?"
As for the Greek, Google Strong's 166, or better yet, the Greek Interlinear at biblehub.com.
Thanks to Einstein, we have proof that a day is as thousand years, and a thousand years is as one day. The very passage of time is affected by things like gravity and the velocity you are traveling at. If you believe that God created the natural world, knows the future, and that time itself is affected by the forces of nature then...
and thanks for this page for tolerating opposing points of view...
correct, but i wasnt speaking in terms of spirits in general, but about the very specific Spirit of God, and all its trappings, as it were...
c f ben yochanan
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