Tuesday, October 9, 2018

HWA's Reasoning of How To Know the WCG Had "The Truth"



In the Good News Magazine of January 1985, HWA decided to tackle the question of how one in the Church is to know they had "The Truth". He wrote:
Some time ago a man, who knew little or nothing about the truth that the living God is proclaiming to the world through us, asked:

"How can you know that you are any nearer right than anybody else? You say the whole world is deceived. You say the churches are wrong on many points of doctrine, but that you have the TRUTH. You say they are human, and have been deceived. It's human to err.

"But are you not also human? Are you not also fallible? How can you be sure you are any nearer right than any of the others?"
From there, he decided to give his own response of how, and why, his church knew he had the "TRUTH". Yes, all Capital letters.
I want to give our readers the clear, plain, understandable answer to those questions! I want to EXPLAIN, so plainly you can really comprehend it, HOW and WHY we know we have the TRUTH! 
I want to make clear how YOU may know what is the TRUTH, while this whole world is deceived and in utter darkness. I want to tell you HOW you may be SURE!
First, are we not also human? Yes, indeed! We can make mistakes, too! We, too, could be in error on this, that or the other point. But we do not need to be!
Alright, Herbert. So how can we be sure? First, it's not a matter, he says, of how smart you are.
A man may say: "Who does this Herbert W. Armstrong think he is? Is he any smarter than all these great theologians — these noted preachers and heads of great religious denominations?" 
The answer is NO — it is not a matter of intellectual capacity.
We are all human. We are all fallible. I have been wrong. I have made mistakes. The same is true of all those God is using in HIS WORK. 
That is the very first thing that we do recognize. That is the starting point in the search for truth. That is one reason why we do have the truth, in the midst of a very deceived world. I wish every religious leader would adopt this approach.

Because Herbert was human, fallible, has been wrong, and has made mistakes, this makes him different from all the others who were human, fallible, have been wrong, and have made mistakes. He fails to realize, or admit, that the entire movement of all of Christianity is full of entire denominations that believe that somewhere down the road, human, fallible, mistake-making people have gone down a different road. Hence the thousands of different denominations of Christianity.

God says, "PROVE all things." That means you are fallible. That means all the "great" men are fallible! ALL are human. ALL can be wrong — and nearly all are. The whole world is DECEIVED (Rev. 12:9). That means its religious leaders and churches are deceived!
Alright, let's break this down. Because God said "Prove" all things, you are fallible. Which means all the "great" men are fallible. Meaning, they can mike mistakes. He then says because the great men are human - then, they can all be wrong. Then states nearly all are, because the whole world is deceived - meaning because the whole world is deceived, it's religious leaders and churches are deceived.But somehow, he doesn't explain here at all how he is different from OTHER religious leaders and churches! He tries to:
   The very recognition of that fact is the beginning of right knowledge. We do recognize it — and that we ourselves could be wrong. That is the first step toward coming out of the fog of error and deception, starting toward truth.  
It is not a matter of who has the greater intellect. A man may have the highest IQ in the world, and in his intellectual VANITY refuse to admit he could be wrong — reject all correction — and thus embrace error and deception.
Here, he says that BECAUSE he recognizes that they - the Worldwide Church of God - COULD be wrong -that this differentiates them from any other church. That it doesn't matter who has the greater intellect - but the fact that they could admit they could be wrong and accept "correction". But did they?
   The second step, if you would know TRUTH, is to be willing to admit being deceived, or in error, and to reject it and accept truth. Ask yourself: "Am I really willing to confess error — to admit I'm wrong — when proved — and reject it? Am I willing to accept truth new to me — when proved — even though unpopular — even though it cuts me off from my family, friends, associates or club members — even though everything in my selfish and vain nature rebels against it? Am I willing to act on it — OBEY the truth — no matter what the cost?" 
Ah, yes! Perhaps now you are beginning to see why "all these great theologians — these noted preachers — these heads of religious denominations" could be in error.
In the 60+ Years of the Radio and the Worldwide Church of God under Herbert Armstrong:
  • They continually uttered the 3 to 5 year timeline of the return of Jesus Christ as imminent. 
  • They continually uttered false speculation and/or prophecy, only to alter it to another false speculation and/or prophecy. 
  • They continually extorted 10 to 30 percent of income from members under the threat of damnation. 
  • They continually used such income for mammon and the purchase and accumulation of earthly treasures. 
  • They continually disfellowshipped individuals for trivial reasons outside of the biblical authority. 
  • They, while accumulating funds for the Building Fund, perpetuated fear and falsehoods of the Place of Safety and the Tribulation to increase funds to complete their material ambitions. 
  • They propagated an incorrect and dis-proven theory of British Israel-ism to differentiate themselves from other religion. 
  • They continually, until the very end of Armstrong, convinced children and teens in the Church they would be pioneers in the whole new World Tomorrow that was supposed to happen 40+ years ago and forward. 
  • They continually covered up, lied, and ignored crimes and felonies within their congregations, knowingly enabling abusers to continue their abuse. 
What did they change?
  • Pentecost. 
  • Divorce and Remarriage Policies. 
  • Makeup. 
  • Internal Policies. 
  • Select Doctrines not impacting The Bottom Line.
They then used those few changes to convince the brethren that their "ability to change" was proof that they had "The Truth". Herbert continued, saying:
Did you ever know a person of great intellectual powers who did not have the kind of VANITY that shrinks from confessing he has been WRONG — and has misled others? To find and live the TRUTH requires a HUMBLED mind.

These are the first TWO points in which one who has come to the TRUTH differs from those still steeped in deception and error.

Can you be SURE that we have the TRUTH, when we, too, as the critic argued, are fallible, with minds that are not perfect? Yes, you can be SURE!
It's pretty rich Herbert claimed he had a "humbled mind". This from a man who would disfellowship and fire nearly anyone who would dare challenge him, or threaten the stability of his financial empire. Remember, it took after he died for any change to happen within the Church. It would never have happened under Herbert's watch - right or wrong.
   
The greatest, ablest intellect in the world is still HUMAN — still fallible — still imperfect. Those who are deceived and steeped in error have simply not stopped to realize their own imperfections — their proneness to error. They assume, in their egotism, that whatever they believe is TRUE. And they are UNWILLING to humble themselves and confess their wrongs.
Pot, meet kettle! Herbert continues:
I can tell you how I started, 55 years ago, out of the darkness and into the light. And it is the basically sound and SURE way for you, or any other, to start.

First, I had to know whether there is a real BASIS for truth. Is there an INFALLIBLE AUTHORITY? In other words, does GOD exist? Is the all-wise — all-knowing — all-perfect GOD a reality? And if so, has He communicated basic TRUTH to mankind?
Herbert continued stating that everyone was to have faith in another Protestant leader's human assumption. That God offered proof of fulfilled prophecies. That God has the proof of answered prayer - while claiming few experience that.

He says it's because HE, Herbert, found proof of God in science. That HE, Herbert, found proof in the facts of matter. That HE, Herbert, found facts in reason and in the Bible. That HE, Herbert, found the Bible as the source of authoritive revelation from God to man - and HE, Herbert, found proof by irrefutable proofs. Herbert had a firm basis of faith. HERBERT had an infallible authority.

 

But this was not enough. Herbert said Herbert had the SOURCE of truth. But HE, Herbert, could not understand the Bible. And most scientists, Herbert said, or educators, or theologians, understood it. Herbert said a great mind and a superior intellect can't understand the spiritual revelation from God, because pure physical brain can't comprehend it. Only the Spirit can comprehend it. And only by receiving the Spirit can you understand it.

Until Herbert Armstrong came on the scene to be the ONLY ONE who got God's Spirit and could understand it.

That is precisely WHY, up until 55 years ago, I could not understand the Bible. That is why nearly all of the truly GREAT minds of world leaders cannot understand this TRUTH! It is not a matter of degree of intellect.
   So, in order to really perceive the deceptions that have BLINDED this world, once we have recognized our own fallibility and proneness to error — once we have become WILLING to admit it when proved wrong, and to accept TRUTH — the next step is to receive God's gift of His Holy Spirit. And the CONDITIONS to this are: 1) REPENTANCE, and 2) FAITH in Christ as personal Savior.
Repentance is toward GOD. Sin is against GOD. We may harm or injure people — but we SIN against GOD. Sin is the transgression of GOD'S LAW. Sin is rebellion against GOD. It has cut us off from God.

To repent means to be so HUMBLED, so broken up about the colossal crime of rebelling against the HOLY GOD — so abhorrent of our own rebellious, deceitful, vain, selfish SELVES — that in real contrition we turn to God for mercy and CHANGE of mind and attitude, now desiring to CHANGE OUR WAYS — to be obedient to GOD'S LAW.

Very few know what repentance really is. Then, through FAITH in Christ as Savior, we may be reconciled to God, and His PROMISE is that we shall then receive HIS HOLY SPIRIT.
Yes, it was Herbert ALONE who was given THE TRUTH, because God only gave Herbert the Holy Spirit, so Herbert says. God opened Herbert's mind. Herbert had to be willing. Herbert had to confess wrongs and embrace truths. Herbert now was the only one who understood everything properly. God was only opening Herbert's mind. Herbert was the only one being led. Herbert was the only one who corrected, turned, and proclaimed. Not one other theologian ever did, Herbert said.
But God had humbled me. He brought me to repentance and faith. And He opened my mind to His TRUTH by the gift of His Holy Spirit.

But I had to be willing, continuously, to confess being wrong, and to embrace truths constantly NEW to me.

That process has been going on, now, for 55 years.

As I studied a portion of the Bible, I could now understand it. But I had to walk in the "light" as God opened my mind to see. Regardless of the cost in the esteem of men, or in countering opposition and persecution, I had constantly to BE WILLING to follow GOD and not man.

It is a matter of WILLINGNESS — not of superior and lofty minds. It is a matter of being LED by GOD'S SPIRIT into His ways that are so CONTRARY to this world's established customs, not of personal human powers.

WHAT CHURCH do you know that has ever publicly confessed that its teaching and practice has been WRONG, and has CORRECTED IT, to conform to the Bible? What great, lauded and mighty churchman or religious leader has ever made such a public confession, turned from his nonbiblical ways and, despite persecution and ridicule, PROCLAIMED THE TRUTH?
Yes, Herbert was the only undeceived one. Herbert was the only one who could be humbled. Who surrendered unconditionally to God "And his Law".
   
These lauded, lofty "greats" of this world could become undeceived and have their eyes opened to God's truth — IF THEY WOULD BE HUMBLED, REPENT AND SURRENDER UNCONDITIONALLY TO ALMIGHTY GOD AND HIS LAW! 
But if you would know what GOD says of these "great and eminent" religious leaders of the great denominations, read God's PROPHECIES describing these very leaders of OUR OWN 20TH CENTURY, in Jeremiah 23; Ezekiel 34; Ezekiel 22, especially verses 21-31, referring to British and United States peoples and their religious leaders NOW, at the time leading directly to "God's WRATH" — the time of the last PLAGUES, just prior to, and at, the Second Coming of Christ!
Herbert was the ONLY one who submitted to God. No one else.
Yes, we CAN KNOW, if willing to know, whether we are right or wrong. It is not a matter of superior intellect, but of SUBMISSION TO GOD.
So what is the conclusion? That the only way you can know that they have THE TRUTH is to believe GOD was only working through Herbert Armstrong, because God forced Herbert into submission, and plunged Herbert to do it all - and that that can easily be proved.
But the conclusion of the whole question is this: I did not start this Work of my own accord at all. It is the very last thing I would have wanted, in my days of carnality, to do. IT IS GOD'S DOING!

By circumstances, God forced me to submission. The living CHRIST so manipulated events and the force of circumstance that He literally PLUNGED me into His Work. It is not my work — it is THE VERY WORK OF GOD.
And THIS can be easily proved, to those willing to know the TRUTH!p

The Bible has a different answer.
"Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?” Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life.No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really know me, you will knowb]" data-mce-style="line-height: 0;">[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” (John 14). 
It was never about Herbert. It was never about trusting in Herbert or Herbert's submission or Herbert's theology. Jesus said HE is the Way, and HE IS THE TRUTH, and He is the life. The only way one knows if one has "THE TRUTH" is if they are IN JESUS CHRIST, not following the man Herbert Armstrong. You don't know Jesus by following Herbert Armstrong, or any man. You know Jesus by knowing Jesus, and by knowing Jesus, you know the Father. It is not dependent, and never has been dependent, on the proven lies, distortions, false prophecies, material greed, idolatry, worldly businesses of Armstrongism who have burdened and oppressed good-hearted people under an obsolete law that pointed to Christ who had not yet come. Herbert's bastardizing of the Law - along with all those who follow Herbert's path - should know that Jesus is the way, and Jesus is the truth. And Jesus is both the resurrection and the life. Something all of the personalities of Armstrongism who bastardize the Law and burden and oppress people are absolutely blind to.

submitted by SHT

49 comments:

Anonymous said...

Despite all his talk of being humble and teachable, HWA only partially followed the bible. If one compares Herbs church to eg, the Jehovah's Witnesses, there's not much difference in their church cultures. Herb followed other churches as much as he followed the bible. The ACOGs culture is still one of feeding members diluted spiritual milk, with the ministers living church members lives for them. Christ by contrast fed his followers spiritual meat and gave them their own lives to live.
On moral fundamentals, Herb was in the sewer.

Anonymous said...

I spent 7 years of pure hell in WC and never knew of any real "christians" within that manmade organization. HA wouldn't have known the "truth" if it slapped him in the face.

Anonymous said...

Worldwide church was NOT the true church!

Anonymous said...

Here is a copy of a comment that I just sent to LCG responding to Gerald Weston's latest:



"""Dear Brethren, Mankind does not know how to rule. That is a theme running through the last four Festivals in God’s sacred calendar. Think about it."""


That is one of the stupidest statements but so called "leaders" in the church continue to spout such idiocy!

It's stupid, not because it isn't true, it is, but it's stupid because it reveals the foolishness of another church tradition of not voting.

The church has historically taught that God places who he chooses in leadership positions so we shouldn't vote.

Imagine one standing before God as he judges the poor government of mankind, one could say "well God, it wasn't our fault, you are the one who placed them in that position"!

The inability of man to govern is the main reason that Christians should vote, we will always be voting for the lesser of two evils, but that's better than the greater of two evils gaining office. Sure it will be an individual Christian's judgment call, and oh so many possess poor judgement, but it is still better than doing nothing at all.

Think about it, Weston!

Anonymous said...

Unfortunately HWA needed to be surrounded by sycophants to build his ego. That blinded him to the "Truth" that the Gospel was not just about the Kingdom, but also about it's coming King. If HWA had follow Christ example, he wouldn't have ruled like the gentiles and preached fear religion.

But as far as "Truth" goes, the Sabbath, Holy Days, Heaven and Hell, Immortal Soul, and the God Family, not the Trinity, the 2nd resurrection, are solid doctrines and no one despite their claims on this site, has ever offered any credible arguments to disprove them.

Anonymous said...

The poster said: And Jesus is both the resurrection and the life. Something all of the personalities of Armstrongism who bastardize the Law and burden and oppress people are absolutely blind to.
My Comment: After the critical comments how do you want a person to explain both the resurrection and the life of the life of Jesus? Which Christian Church has all of the truth presented in a way that a person does not need to apply their faith and biblical study in a manner that gives them a road to travel in this earthly journey?
AB

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
I spent 7 years of pure hell in WC and never knew of any real "christians" within that manmade organization. HA wouldn't have known the "truth" if it slapped him in the face.

My Comment : I do not know the person who made this comment nor when or where they spent their 7 years , but I spent 42 years in WC in 4 or 5 different congregation. There was never anything that could be defined as pure hell. It wasn't until the dramatic changes were made and forced that people suffered and I chose to withdraw my membership and ceased to attend any congregational gatherings. I made this choice because I did not want people to follow me. My years with the organization were filled with relational experiences that were positive since I do not allow anything that destroys my faith to affect me.
AB

Anonymous said...

6.36 AM
I don't agree that HWA was blinded to the 'Truth' by his sycophants. Short term, maybe, but long term, no. Herb was too independent minded.
HWA like Satan, knew the truth, but knowingly rejected it.

TLA said...

I think the first comment about partially following the Bible hits the nail on the head.
There is a lot more to the Bible than the standard COG doctrines.
It is like we focus on what the mainstream churches do not do, but ignore what they do right.

Unknown said...

As I understand it, the statement used to be said "Follow HWA as he follows Christ". Nowhere in the New Testament is such an arrangement advocated. Nor is there ever anyone who is anointed as the "sole leader" of the Church , who is the oracle and shaman over everyone in the Body of Christ either.


1 Cor. 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

I Am Not A Seventh-Day Adventist said...

Anon 6:36 AM, Those can be disproven and has been many times here and MANY other sites. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

Anonymous said...

Connie
Following a leader or person as they follow Christ, has some truth. It's more commonly expressed as 'if someone has a good habit, imitate it until it becomes a part of you.' But as usual, the church twisted this. First they hid that Christ directly leads Christians, thus making the ministers little Popes. And 'following a leader' meant being passive and allowing oneself to be lorded over.

Dennis said...

I Corinthians 1:11 has Paul saying "Immitate ( follow) me as I Immitate Christ" This is the scripture he's was playing off

Dennis said...

Sorry. I Corinthians 11:1

SHT said...

The key to understanding the Sabbath and the Holy Days is - ready?

JESUS.

Unless one understands the key - Jesus - that is:

1. What he accomplished on the Cross
2. Who he disarmed by the Cross.
3. Who the Father SENT as the Counselor AFTER the Cross.
4. What Jesus reconciled humanity - ALL of humanity - to AFTER the Cross.
5. How humanity - ALL of humanity - now has access to the Father AFTER the Cross.

They will NEVER, EVER. EVER!!! find a thing to invalidate the Sabbath and the Holy Days as binding. The key is Jesus. He is the mystery - Christ in You - the hope of glory - that solves the puzzle. You ignore Him, you deny Him, you won't find anything or anyone else who has fulfilled the Law.

The only way to discover that the Sabbath and the Holy Days foreshadowed Jesus Christ and what he did, is to realize the simple truth that everything in the Old Testament - the Law, the Prophets - the whole thing - POINTED to Jesus and everything he accomplished. Only through Jesus can one ever begin to understand the differences before Christ's death and resurrection, and after.

Armstrongism has continually denied what Jesus did, ignoring it and placing it in file 13 - and instead, causing people to inadvertently deny, deny, DENY all that He accomplished - and saying instead that He'll do it "later" for everyone. That's not the Gospel. John 3:16-18 summarized the Gospel perfectly.

Anonymous said...

Anon 5:59 AM," Those can be disproven and has been many times here and MANY other sites. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there."

As usual, no rebuttal offered on these basic COG doctrines. Just for fun, how about addressing just one of them.

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:48 PM, I'm not your babysitter! All you have to do is do a web search. Just for fun, why don't you send an email to this site administration, I'm sure he will be more than myself to help you.

Anonymous said...

Been there, done that, 12:48. You missed it? Too bad. Your sentence in Armstrongism continues.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 6:36 AM said:
. . . But as far as “Truth" goes . . . the 2nd resurrection, are solid doctrines and no one despite their claims on this site, has ever offered any credible arguments to disprove them.

So regarding the resurrection of the dead do you believe in the three resurrections as HWA taught and/or how do you understand it?

Anonymous said...

11.00 PM
Herb claimed in his holy day booklet that people in the millenium will be resurrected to eternal life immediately on their death. That's assuming they qualified.
I don't believe that is correct. Those who die during the millenium will have to wait until its end to be resurrected. Otherwise why are the first fruits called blessed. It's only the first fruits who live the full one thousand years during the millenium.
I've noticed James Malm agrees with Herb on this point.

Anonymous said...

11.00 PM
Herb claimed in his holy day booklet that people in the millenium will be resurrected to eternal life immediately on their death. That's assuming they qualified.
I don't believe that is correct. Those who die during the millenium will have to wait until its end to be resurrected. Otherwise why are the first fruits called blessed. It's only the first fruits who live the full one thousand years during the millenium.
I've noticed James Malm agrees with Herb on this point.

Anonymous said...


11:00 PM "So regarding the resurrection of the dead do you believe in the three resurrections as HWA taught and/or how do you understand it?"

Yes I also believe in third resurrection.


Rev. 20 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Anonymous said...

6.45AM
But his does your Rev 20:14 "second death" translate into a third resurrection?
Please list your three resurrections.

Kevin McMillen said...

"""Anonymous said...

11:00 PM "So regarding the resurrection of the dead do you believe in the three resurrections as HWA taught and/or how do you understand it?"

Yes I also believe in third resurrection.


Rev. 20 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
October 11, 2018 at 6:45 AM" ""

-------------

Nowhere in the verses that you pasted prove a "third" resurrection. Herbie taught that as a fear tactic, if you left his "church" you were bound for the "third resurrection" to be cast into hell.

There is no biblical support for this doctrine.

Verse 13 is not a resurrection 100 years after verse 12, verse 13 is the same resurrection as verse 12

Kevin.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 12:54 AM said:
Those who die during the millenium will have to wait until its end to be resurrected. Otherwise why are the first fruits called blessed. It's only the first fruits who live the full one thousand years during the millenium.

I can’t state with certainty myself, but I always thought those who live physical lives in the Millennium and are saved at their end will be transformed from mortal to immortal beings like those Paul writes of who will be still alive at Christ’s return in 1 Corinthians 15:52: “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” Those who aren’t saved will experience a physical death.

Anonymous 6:45 AM said:
Yes I also believe in third resurrection.

As others have pointed out (e.g. Kevin McMillen 8:27 AM) there is no scriptural support for a belief in three resurrections. The Great White Throne Judgment is described from verses 12-15 inclusive. It is a single resurrection described throughout. It does not describe two resurrections (i.e. second and third resurrection) as you have been misled to believe at all. It describes the second resurrection period.

A couple of scriptures in support of this is Hebrews 9:27: "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" and Revelation 20:14: "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

We all naturally live one life and die "once" (Hebrews 9:27) be it in the past antediluvian era or this "present evil" era or the future Millennial era. Hence, Paul's assertion in Hebrews 9:27. Those who rise in the first resurrection to immortality will be immune to the "second death" (Revelation 20:5-6; cf. 2:11). This is the same "resurrection of the just" or "resurrection of life" referred to by Christ (Luke 14:14; John 5:29) and Paul (Acts 24:15). Those who rise in the second resurrection or Great White Throne Judgment shall at its end either be granted immortality or experience the "second death" in the lake of fire (Matthew 10:15; 11:22-24; 12:36-37, 41-42; Mark 6:11; Luke 10:12-15; 11:31-32; ).

If there were three resurrections as Armstrong falsely taught then it would contradict holy scripture since it would mean those who rise in the second resurrection after experiencing life and death once before, but in the Great White Throne period reject salvation through Christ would then supposedly experience a second death at its end only to rise a third time in a supposed third resurrection to supposedly die a third and final time. There is nothing in scripture about such a "third resurrection" or "third death."

Anonymous said...

The first resurrection is the Bride of Christ at Christ's return.
The second resurrection, a resurrection back to human life, are those who were not called the past six thousand years. They will be given about one hundred years of life. This occurs at the end of the one thousand year millenium rule. This is in accordance with the 'fair chance' doctrine. Everyone gets a opportunity to qualify for eternal life.
The third resurrection is everyone (except obviously the pride of Christ) being resurrected back to human life and judged before Gods throne. They are given either eternal life or eternal death.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous @ 5.17AM

The first and second resurrections are correct.

The third resurrection = second death. It is a sentencing time, not a judgement. Judgement means a lifetime of living or rejecting God's way of life (character development). Second death is for those called B.C, A.D , Millennium, 100 year period but reject God's way of life.


Kevin McMillen said...

"""Anonymous said...
The first resurrection is the Bride of Christ at Christ's return.
The second resurrection, a resurrection back to human life, are those who were not called the past six thousand years. They will be given about one hundred years of life. This occurs at the end of the one thousand year millenium rule. This is in accordance with the 'fair chance' doctrine. Everyone gets a opportunity to qualify for eternal life.
The third resurrection is everyone (except obviously the pride of Christ) being resurrected back to human life and judged before Gods throne. They are given either eternal life or eternal death.

October 12, 2018 at 5:17 AM"""

--------------------------------------

First off, that's not what the church has historically taught. The teaching was that the third resurrection was for those called in this life, accepted the calling, then later rejected it. (herbies punishment for leaving wcg)

Look closely at what you've written. You have the second resurrection as "those who were not called in the last 6,000 years". Then you have everyone except the bride being resurrected again after the 100 year GWTJ.

As has been pointed out, in your scenario you have added a third death to the bible when those in the third reject God and are cast into hell.

Obviously you're young, go back to whoever taught you and show them your explanation.

The bible does not teach a third death. Nor does it teach a third resurrection after the Great White Throne Judgement.

Kevin

TLA said...

I had always assumed that the scriptures about falling away meant there will be a third resurrection, but I see now that Revelation only has 2 resurrections. My mind was conditioned to see 3. Since the Bible records that God wants all to be saved, maybe "the rest of the dead" really means the rest of the dead.
Sometimes what we think we are reading is automatically translated into our belief system. This is not unique to religion. We can see from politics that people can experience the same events and "see" completely different things.

Kevin McMillen said...

"""TLA said...
I had always assumed that the scriptures about falling away meant there will be a third resurrection, but I see now that Revelation only has 2 resurrections. My mind was conditioned to see 3. Since the Bible records that God wants all to be saved, maybe "the rest of the dead" really means the rest of the dead.
Sometimes what we think we are reading is automatically translated into our belief system. This is not unique to religion. We can see from politics that people can experience the same events and "see" completely different things.

October 12, 2018 at 10:33 AM" ""

-------------------------------------------

We were definately trained to see a third. We were told that those who put their hand to the plough and look back will be in the third. The plough being the WCG church.

In reality it says they aren't fit for the kingdom. Do you know anyone truly "fit" for the kingdom? I know I'm not and I'm thankful for God's grace.

We were also told that if we leave the church, implication being to reject God, that there remained no more sacrifice for sin.

No one, not one, who left the WCG will be in a third resurrection.

The God that I worship would never condemn anyone to eternal death whose confusion was caused by a totally corrupt church system like the WCG.

Kevin

Anonymous said...

Kevin
People who have died and never heard of Gods way will be resurrected and given a opportunity for salvation. At their lifes end, these same people will be resurrected again and judged. That's the second resurrection for these people. If one includes the earlier resurrection of the bride of Christ, that's a total of three resurrections.

"Obviously you're young.." I find the patronising tone in your posts annoying.

Kevin McMillen said...

"""Anonymous I Am Not A Seventh-Day Adventist said...
Anon 6:36 AM, Those can be disproven and has been many times here and MANY other sites. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

October 10, 2018 at 9:59 AM"""

---------------------------------

Ok, you're not a sda I'm going to take the bait. While I differ a little on the old WCG explanations of some of these teachings:

"the Sabbath, Holy Days, Heaven and Hell, Immortal Soul, and the God Family, not the Trinity, the 2nd resurrection,"

I've read many sites that think they disprove them but in reality they don't even come close. I don't really want to argue since I do respect your right to disagree.

So I would appreciate it if you could point me to the best debunking site for each doctrine. I promise that I will read them, as long as it's not 500 pages to say something that can be said in 3. Kinda like an acog sermon. 90 minutes to give 5 minutes of info.

Thanks in advance.

Kevin

Kevin McMillen said...

"""Anonymous said...
Kevin
People who have died and never heard of Gods way will be resurrected and given a opportunity for salvation. At their lifes end, these same people will be resurrected again and judged. That's the second resurrection for these people. If one includes the earlier resurrection of the bride of Christ, that's a total of three resurrections.

"Obviously you're young.." I find the patronising ton"""


-----------------------------------------

Wow!!!! You really are confused. The tone of my posts is determined by the intelligence of the poster that I'm writing to.

I don't know where you got the idea that the "resurrected will be resurrected again" but that is not biblical. The phrase "second resurrection" doesn't mean an individual will be resurrected twice. It's a sequence of resurrections involving two different groups of people. The first resurrection being those of the Bride of Christ who were dead at Christ's second coming, and the second resurrection being the "rest of the dead" who are resurrected at the end of the millennium.


The only people that I know of that will be resurrected twice are the man whose bones touched Elisha, Lazarus, those who came out of their grave when Jesus died and Eutychus, if there are any others that I missed anyone can add them.

Your scenario was never taught by the WCG so whoever taught you this I'd be interested in knowing who it was.I

Kevin

Kevin McMillen said...

""""Obviously you're young.." I find the patronising tone in your posts annoying.

October 12, 2018 at 12:13 PM"""

--------------------------------

I understand why you feel my tone is patronizing. A seven year old arguing algebraic equations with a twenty year old would most likely feel the same.

Kevin

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 12:13 PM said:

People who have died and never heard of Gods way will be resurrected and given a opportunity for salvation.

Agreed. In the second resurrection at the Great White Throne Judgment.

At their lifes end, these same people will be resurrected again and judged. That's the second resurrection for these people. If one includes the earlier resurrection of the bride of Christ, that's a total of three resurrections.

You’re confusing me now so my apologies if I’m coming across as obtuse. I’m simply requesting clarification. So are you saying that after the resurrection of the saints (first resurrection) there will be a majority of people who after living their first physical life ignorant of salvation in the pre-flood era or this post-flood era and then experiencing a first death they’ll be raised for the first time to a second physical life after the Millennium and die a second death (second resurrection of GWT) before they’re raised a second time to die a third and final death in the lake of fire (third resurrection of GWT)?

If my understanding of what you believe is true is correct then I respectfully disagree. I can only ask you to look over again my previous post at 9:06 PM and hopefully with the guidance of God’s Holy Spirit like TLA you will finally “see” what he saw and what I and others finally realized after careful Bible study. As TLA noted we were “conditioned to see 3” even though there are only 2 resurrections outlined in Holy Scripture and 2 deaths (1. A physical death occurring in pre-flood era, post-flood era and Millennial era; 2. “Second death” or lake of fire). Thus, I repeat there is nothing in scripture about a "third resurrection" or "third death” as you believe. Such a belief contradicts Holy Scripture and is, therefore, false.

Kevin McMillen said...

Why don't people who post anonymously on this site pick two or three letters to sign all their posts with? Is it too hard to understand that if you post one anonymous post and then later another, then someone else posts anonymous, then someone else, then how the hell are we supposed to carry on a conversation?

If you post anonymously, don't expect any respect from me!I

KEvin

Kevin McMillen said...

"""
If my understanding of what you believe is true is correct then I respectfully disagree. I can only ask you to look over again my previous post at 9:06 PM and hopefully with the guidance of God’s Holy Spirit like TLA you will finally “see” what he saw and what I and others finally realized after careful Bible study. As TLA noted we were “conditioned to see 3” even though there are only 2 resurrections outlined in Holy Scripture and 2 deaths (1. A physical death occurring in pre-flood era, post-flood era and Millennial era; 2. “Second death” or lake of fire). Thus, I repeat there is nothing in scripture about a "third resurrection" or "third death” as you believe. Such a belief contradicts Holy Scripture and is, therefore, false."""

--------------------

The problem is that what the third resurrection dude believes is not taught by anyone that I know of. I'd like to know what group he attends or where he got his belief. I personally just think he misunderstands what he was taught.

Kevin

RB said...

Kevin @ October 2018 at 7.03 PM

There is no third death. The confusion is that the second resurrection group in the GWTJ has to die again. Not so. I think the clue is in Isaiah 65:20 (second resurrection group to live 100 years). We all assume they will die and have to be resurrected for the final sentence. so a third death for those who do not qualify . My thinking/interpretation (not WCG) is they DO NOT have to die at the end of the 100 year period. They will be sentenced like in an open court - ALIVE. If they qualify, they go and join the earlier resurrected saints. If they wilfully disobey and choose not to live God's way of life after 100 years, they suffer the second death.

Heb 9:27 ( die once) refers to spiritual death (baptism) i.e everybody given the one and only chance to know God's Truth and judged over a lifespan as taught by WCG ( those called now and during GWTJ).

The third resurrection (second death) is taught by Radio church of God, WCG, Church
of God, Eternal and other COG.

Anonymous said...

@ Kevin October 12, 2018

Regarding the third resurrection and third death, please refer to website of Church of the Great God. Just google "third resurrection".

Anonymous said...

RB said: Heb 9:27 ( die once) refers to spiritual death (baptism) i.e everybody given the one and only chance to know God's Truth and judged over a lifespan as taught by WCG ( those called now and during GWTJ).

Hebrews 9:27 states: “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment”

This verse has nothing to do with baptism. It refers to the divine sentence of physical death that hangs over all mankind just as Christ had to die “once for all” a physical death as a sin offering for us (see Heb. 9:28; 10:10).

Incidentally this verse is scriptural support that disproves the false notion of reincarnation.

Kevin McMillen said...

RB

Being in the cog for over 50 years, I know what the church taught on the third resurrection/second death. It's anonymous 12:13pm who's confused.

He's the one assuming those in the GWTJ have to die again, which was never taught by the WCG.

Which is why I and anonymous 9:06pm have been trying to show him that his scenario involves a third death, not taught in the bible nor by any acog group that I know of.

In my 50 years in the cog I never assumed those in the GWTJ had to die again, so when you say "we all assume" you aren't correct.

As far as Is. 65:20, the WCG taught that this verse was about a persons lifespan during the millennium, and that because of this, those raised in the GWTJ will most likely have 100 years to live while being judged, as we are today, on how they live.

Again, I'm not the one confused, the guy who thinks the second resurrection means a person is resurrected twice to a physical life is the one confused, and that is anonymous 12:13pm.I

Kevin

Kevin McMillen said...

"""Heb 9:27 ( die once) refers to spiritual death (baptism)"""

I have to disagree with you here. The one appointed death that we all have is dying physically, has nothing to do with baptisms symbolism of death.

Even those changed in the twinkling of an eye, their physical body will die.

I'm amazed at all the confusion about what WCG really taught.

Again, I'm not defending the WCG, but if we're going to examine what they taught we need to be accurate.

Kevin

Kevin McMillen said...

"""
Anonymous said...
@ Kevin October 12, 2018

Regarding the third resurrection and third death, please refer to website of Church of the Great God. Just google "third resurrection".

October 12, 2018 at 11:36 PM"""

- ----------------------------

I'm assuming that you're the same anonymous from October 12, 2018 at 12:13 PM where you stated that:

"Anonymous said...
Kevin
People who have died and never heard of Gods way will be resurrected and given a opportunity for salvation. At their lifes end, these same people will be resurrected again and judged. That's the second resurrection for these people. If one includes the earlier resurrection of the bride of Christ, that's a total of three resurrections.

"Obviously you're young.." I find the patronising tone in your posts annoying.

October 12, 2018 at 12:13 PM"


Here you claim those raised at the GWTJ will die again and then be raised again a third time to be judged. You call that the third resurrection and if they refuse God you say this is the third death.

That however is not what the Church of the Great God teaches.

In fact they teach exactly what I said in post October 12, 2018 at 4:57 PM

"""The only people that I know of that will be resurrected twice are the man whose bones touched Elisha, Lazarus, those who came out of their grave when Jesus died and Eutychus, if there are any others that I missed anyone can add them."""

Here is what the Church of the Great God says:


""Apart from symbolism, the general rule is that we each die physically at least once and then await the resurrection to eternal life. But some few humans have already died twice! Lazarus, Dorcas, Eutychus, those who came out of their graves when Christ died and others were physically resurrected and physically died again.

It is conceivable that some few might even die three times! If those who were resurrected physically were converted and accepted for the Kingdom, they will be resurrected when Christ returns—changed "in the twinkling of an eye" into immortal spirit beings (I Corinthians 15:52). If they were not called and converted—not yet having had an opportunity for salvation—they will come up in the second resurrection to be alive a third time. At the end of that life they will then be either changed to spirit or die in the Lake of Fire, a third death. ""

So my friend anonymous, that is proof that it is you who are confused.

As I said, let someone whom you trust read through these posts, they'll show you that you're confused.I

Kevin

RB said...

@ Kevin October 13, 2018 at 7.16 PM.

Re Third resurrection as false. When does those who face the second death be resurrected if not in the third reurrection?

Kevin McMillen said...

RB said...
@ Kevin October 13, 2018 at 7.16 PM.

Re Third resurrection as false. When does those who face the second death be resurrected if not in the third reurrection?

October 15, 2018 at 11:30 PM


©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©


Are you serious? Have you even been following this thread? From the beginning I said the third resurrection was false. Scare tactics used by Armstrong. Anonymous believes in the third resurrection.

One more example of how people afraid to give their names can come on here, make stupid comments, then pretend they didn't make them.

Everyone who posts on here anonymously, arguing with those of us not afraid of standing by what we write by giving our name, are bearing false witness. You all are a bunch of lying cowards!

Kevin McMillen

Kevin McMillen said...

"""RB said...
@ Kevin October 13, 2018 at 7.16 PM.

Re Third resurrection as false. When does those who face the second death be resurrected if not in the third reurrection?

October 15, 2018 at 11:30 PM"""

¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿


I misread this earlier. The bible doesn't say that those who face the second death will ever be resurrected.

Of course those few who were resurrected twice like I said earlier, the dead man whose body touched Elijah's bones, Lazarus, etc. are an exception.

The final death for those who reject God is the second death.

Rev 20:14 - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Rev 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.



Kevin

RB said...

@Kevin October 16 at 9.56 AM

Anonymous Kevin McMillen said...

"""RB said...
@ Kevin October 13, 2018 at 7.16 PM.

Re Third resurrection as false. When does those who face the second death be resurrected if not in the third reurrection?

October 15, 2018 at 11:30 PM"""

¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿


I misread this earlier. The bible doesn't say that those who face the second death will ever be resurrected.

Of course those few who were resurrected twice like I said earlier, the dead man whose body touched Elijah's bones, Lazarus, etc. are an exception.

The final death for those who reject God is the second death.

Rev 20:14 - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Rev 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.



Kevin

October 16, 2018 at 5:56 AM

If there is no third resurrection, the unjust will never know their mistakes (Luke 13:28 "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth...)

For those called now, you either make it in the first resurrection or raised up in the third resurrection to face the second death.

WCG has always taught the third resurrection (Ambassador College's 58 Lesson Bible Correspondence Course, Lesson 39, "The Last Great Day - The LAST JUDGMENT" subtitled 'The Third Resurrection') it is inthe website hwalibrary.com

Kevin McMillen said...

"""Anonymous RB said...
@Kevin October 16 at 9.56 AM


WCG has always taught the third resurrection (Ambassador College's 58 Lesson Bible Correspondence Course, Lesson 39, "The Last Great Day - The LAST JUDGMENT" subtitled 'The Third Resurrection') it is inthe website hwalibrary.com"""


============================================

You are correct RB, the WCG did teach a third resurrection, I never said they didn't. I said the bible doesn't teach it. I believe that I stated earlier that I think they taught this for scare tactics to keep people in the WCG.

I personally believe that God is more merciful than any of us think. I don't think he'd condemn anyone to hell unless they knew without any doubt, that he existed and what his purpose was.

So, I believe that anyone that had accepted Christ, and then later had any doubt and "looked back", backslid, or whatever we want to call it, for various reasons, such as legalist churches like WCG disenfranchising them, doubts about the bible being true, or doubts that God exists, will not be in a third resurrection as WCG claimed.

I believe that they will be raised in the GWTJ with those who had never heard or believed. And they will be shown the truth and given Grace and forgiven if they choose to worship God. I don't really like the word worship because I think it makes God out to be some kind of egomaniac wanting everyone to submit to his every whim. I don't think God is anything like that.

As I said in the Oct. 12, 11:57am post, scriptures that WCG used to scare people with like, he who puts his hand to the plough and turns back isn't fit for the kingdom, were twisted to scare people into submission

Are you fit for the kingdom? I know that I'm not. But for the Grace of God/Jesus I'm only fit for death.

Believe me, with all the religious hypocrites out there wanting money, power, etc., willing to steal from widows. Is it any wonder people question the bible and God? The God that I believe in, and I think the bible teaches, is a God who will even bring those hypocrites like herbie up in the GWTJ. Not that I know which of the two he'll be in.

We have a Great and Merciful God, one that WCG and the splinters don't know fully IMO.

Kevin



















Kevin McMillen said...

"""Kevin

October 16, 2018 at 5:56 AM

If there is no third resurrection, the unjust will never know their mistakes (Luke 13:28Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth...)"""

***********************************

Consider this RB, if those who Jesus was talking to came up in the GWTJ, and seeing all the firstfruits already in the Kingdom, all who lived in the Millennium and accepted salvation in the Kingdom. All being spirit beings, and they, God's "chosen people", "Abraham's seed" being resurrected as mortal physical beings at the GWTJ. Do you not think there will be some weeping and gnashing of teeth?

Kinda makes verse 30 make a little more sense if you ask me.


Luk 13:30 - And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Kevin