graphic clipping by SHT
GTA in 1973. Even he knew the constant money grabbing by the church was damaging families, yet he continued to demand it be raked.
Just how many more non-biblical ways could they come up with to rake in money from members?
1st tithe
2nd tithe
3rd tithe every 3rd year into a fund to help remodel evangelists homes (Meredith)
Bail money fund to gain the release of arrested church leaders
Offerings at Holydays
tithe of the tithe
building fund
Member letters
"love" offerings
It is your fault my wife is dying offering
Steuben crystal fund
the most beautiful college campus in the U.S. fund
The Envoy fund
The New World Singers fund
The Young Philadelphians fund
The Young Ambassadors fund
The SEP fund
The Lake Tahoe House fund
I am sure I am missing more:
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46 comments:
Sounds like he is sticking up for the members. I remember back then that a ruling came out that you didn't have to pay third tithe and only what you needed for the Feast for second tithe. I assume it was Garner Ted who came up with that ruling. I stopped attending after that so I don't know how short lived the changes were. Maybe Dennis remembers the situation because it did happen sometime maybe in the late 70's.
Most of these are free will gifts. All legal.
You forgot saving Campbell soup labels and cleaning litter from the roadside for community programs, as there were many.
nck
Nck
Here we go again with defense lawyer Nck. You are ignoring the constant mental pressure applied to members. Just how "free will" were the gifts?
Exactly 12:38! So-called "free will " offerings were anything but free will. You were guilt tripped and shamed into doing it. The lake of fire was used to scare you into opening your wallet and funding the lairs. Those "requests" were actually demands and they kept track of it all. According to nck, HWA was so gifted that he pooped sparkly glitter that we should all be in awe of.
Pervie Herbie could do not wrong. We were all just too stupid to say no to anything Herbie and crew said. NCK always said no. Right?
By the time he was running CGI, Garner ted had changed his beliefs in tithing and offering.
Offerings only three times in a year. Keep any left over 2nd tithe for the following year feast.
Don't forget, in the time of "emergency crisis'" times, I believe, if I remember correctly, we were even asked to go into debt by borrowing money from the bank or using credit cards to send in extra money. And as SHT has already proven in past articles, it was used during the time of the building of the "golden calf" mighty auditorium, under threat of "the lake of fire" or "loss of salvation" by the authority of Jesus Christ. How pathetic!
Somewhere, some time ago, I remember reading an insider account where Garner Ted Armstrong floated the proposal that during a year of financial crisis the WCG leadership might cancel the Feast sites and instead ask members to send in to HQ their second tithe. Obviously, the proposal was rejected, even though members from the early years would have known that going to a "Feast site" wasn't absolutely required, as for many years in the early years of Radio Church of God there were just one or two sites in the world, and many members could not attend. Can anybody remember the details of GTA's proposal, or point me to another source describing it?
While still in LCG, Bob Thiel wrote in one of his COGWriter articles that third tithe should be used to pay for the ministers retirement. The reason he gave is that HWA had forbidden the ministers to save for their retirement, and that social security was "broken." How can Herb possibly dictate what ministers do with their pay? The 'daddy said I couldn't do it' excuse is so embarrassing.
The ministers lived a privileged lifestyle, so I find it hard to be sympathetic to their plight.
The "free will" or "voluntary" nature was said for legal purposes only.
The fear was real. If you did not give money as you were expected to give money, you were a slacker. A slacker was an unprofitable servant. An unprofitable servant is cast into the LOF. Therefore, you gave to the highest amount - whether $100, $500, or $1,000 - in offerings ALONE.
HWA did say that no one was forced to give. Legally. If you didn't like it, you could leave at any time. But with the full mental belief that your life - in this age, and in the age to come - was over. Finished. Kaput. This was full blown spiritual and emotional abuse, oppression, condemnation, and guilt. Herbert was an expert at staying within the requirements of the LEGAL aspects of the tithing doctrine, while using the separation of church and state to its utmost, spiritually mandating what the world's law could not. This is the tactic used by many churches, not just Armstrongism. "Donations" are "free will", but spiritually, "you gon' fry."
HWA used the financial mastermind of Stanley Rader from 1960 and forward to build his physical empire (I'll get into that specifically another time in a post), while using his own psychology to secure the funding. Then, he used the ministers as drill sergeants and mind conditioners to squeeze the tithes out of the Tithe Slaves. The Plain Truth and the Good News were the recruitment propaganda - free, of course - the readers not knowing they were about to give tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars to Armstrong. From 1956 to 1975, a special propaganda was used to increase funding further for "special" offerings for purely physical endeavors. Finally, when it was all built and the master plan completed, Herbert went around the world on our dime having a blast using the gospel as a pretense for his trips. Even a small precursory glance at his speeches will tell you definitively - this was no gospel trip. This was as I mentioned before, the Herbert Armstrong Traveling Autobiography Lecture, for HIS glorification, and HIS status, and HIS purposes. If you want proof - it can be easily provided.
It may have been "Legal". But it certainly was not "free will". It was exactly the same thing as spousal abuse - when a spouse controls their mate in the same manner, thinking it's all ok. It is not. It was not. Abuse is abuse. And Herbert was an ABUSER.
FFS,
I must have came in after all that,but I'm curious of what one would tell the bank what they are borrowing money for. To give to a church? Would the banks do that?
6:56 -
Stanley Rader was the one who told the bank what they were borrowing money for. Stan convinced Pasadena that Ambassador was good for Pasadena and Pasadena was good for Ambassador. Actually, there's a good two pages on this in one of the PGR's when Stan had a candid conversation with the pastors of the church. A good relationship with the banker and Rader was important to Rader's convincing the banks to loan the money.
I agree. There was huge mental incentive to get yourself an envoy. But pressured into?
After reviewing all literature I must conclude people who ignored food for children while increasing offerings were stupid.
A track on offerings? Another silly lie. No one knew if I gave 25 or 500 in the enveloppe.
There was no loan on the auditorium. There was a 20 year lease. Just like the GII lease. Banks would loan with high risk, negotiating high return. Stan would negotiate lower than usual interest rates because of high steady cash flow. (church sponsoring and ensuring payments for separate foundation)
HWA said cringing christian things before egyptian, japanese, greek etc elites even lambasting them in their presence on their greed. They (stan and hwa) did praise the chinese too much for their efforts to raise the living standards of a billion people, I agree.
It's quite clear if SHT has the complete transcripts of speeches instead of the edited ones.
The one with Rader speaking to the military leaders of the philipines about wcg support for the marcos agricultural reforms was entirely in line with cia policy for south east asia region ( and the wonderful world tomorrow booklet introducing todays nwo)
Nck
nck said: "Most of these are free will gifts. All legal."
Maybe "legal," but definitely not moral.
Tithing money is unscriptural and a "doctrine of devils."
As usual, nck is full of hot air. I worked for the church and they regularly checked on tithes and offerings of church members and employees. I know because I had to do it.
9:56
How would you check on offerings in blank enveloppes?
People full of hot air see "old hog jowls scream at a Greek dinner about a hand from someplace full of himself". I see a cabinet minister introducing HWA at an elite dinner at a pivotal moment for that country on the southern Nato border in deciding to joining a supranational organization that happens to be completely in line with stated US foreign policy since WWII under threat of total annihilation.
The routine on this blog is to say "that nck does not know his facts and overstates hwa's photo opps and influence" I say he himself did not know he was a messenger in a larger diplomatic effort.
nck
tithe of the tithe was simply the levites tithing on their income....
and it wouldn't matter if they tried to verify my tithes since they had/have no clue how much I make...and it's none of their business anyway.
I remember a similar idea being suggested by a CGI Pastor.
The brethren observing the Feast of Tabernacles every two years and then on the third year the brethren send in their second tithe and observe Tabernacles at home. Yet the Ministry were to keep the Feast every year.
As far as i was aware the brethren completely ignored this idea.
When you begin to see that EVERYTHING WCG sponsored, including its message and financing of the CIA radio stations through the world tomorrow payments, was in line with stated US foreign policy goals and goals and directives of the American Empire you can get a grasp that al lot of the tithe money did wondrous miracles for your lives.
Today you misfits whine about how wcg did nothing to alleviate the pain of the poor african people, while in reality all efforts of wcg were directed at targeting non alligned nations of the former british empire to save them for the american empire in the war against communism.
(as in sponsoring radio swan and its role in the bay of pigs invasion and many many more ops I will explain and answer to SHT the moment he will post for the membership amended briefings on hwa's "missionary" trips.)
Oh yes those tithe dollars were directly working for the greater benefit of mankind.
nck
When I started attending services in the 1970s, I sent in my first tithe anonymously. This was because nosey family members were illegally opening my mail. The consequence? I was approached at services for not tithing.
So Nck and others, don't tell me that member tithing wasn't checked.
I remember as a 17 year old stopping one last time on the way home from the feast and trying to use up my 2nd tithe so I wouldn’t have to turn it in.
11th tithe was the worst!
I guess it's because of the word "tithe" that people think they have to "turn in" any that is left after the Feast...
4:30
Where in my postings do you read what you asked??????
Of course people would know IF you tithed. As a 13 year old kid I used to hand out the monthly receipts after services on request of the local minister. I often wondered what was in the enveloppe and why I never had one adressed to me. Little accomplice I was.
nck
"How would you check on offerings in blank enveloppes? "
I am not sure if you are intentionally misrepresenting or if you do not remember.
On the Holy Day Offering Envelopes - yes, the yellow ones - when they were checking offerings - they were NOT blank. There was a fill-in-the square area where you had to put in your PT subscriber number. This is how they cross-checked the offering with your record. One of the ways.
Perhaps it was different in your area. But this is exactly how it was for the US. I confirmed this with another ex-member to be sure I was correct on this. And I am.
You can start the name-calling all you want, NCK, but "misfits" is not what is going on here. I do know whereof I speak.
You must be having a bad day. Your arrogance is getting bad once again.
Of course tithes and offerings were checked! A family member of mine was an elder, and he was told directly that being faithful to the monetary system would put you on the fast track to the ministry. And after the conservatorship debacle, we were told not to send tithes directly to Pasadena, but to give to the local minister. Also, the special holy day offerings were opened and counted at each site and the envelopes cataloged so they could be broadcasted and bragged about how much MORE one site gave than another. Remember THOSE days? All that cash squandered on gold candlesticks....
OK SHT.
I have never deliberately misrepresented. And I am not arrogant at all. I tell it like it was for the 30.000 members in my area. Completely anonymous offerings.
As I said, I did hand out the monthly tithing receipts after services as a kid. According to Cialdini that fall under one of the laws of influencing and group pressure. But hey I was a kid saving the church stamps.
nck
NCK You are full of hot air to claim 30,000 people in your area only used blank envelopes, That is a blatant lie. I worked in the accounting office for the church and the overwhelming majority of tithe/offerings came in envelopes. There was no church area that ever sent in 30,000 blank envelopes nor did they ever open 30,000 envelopes on site and take the money out. Everyone used marked envelopes for tax purposes.
I still have my plain truth subscriber number in one of my bibles that I bought at the fot. That number was on all the literature that I received from hq, including tithe and offering envelopes. Yes, we all had a number.
10:14
You lie!!!
Just the Norfolk Feast site alone had 13000 attendants. The count was in within hours.
YOU LIAR WAS NOT INVOLVED!
Many areas kept all offerings locally since almost non of the international areas was able to fund the missionary work under the ac brand. A lot of the international work was sponsored through the Canadian branch for the 30.000 member area only aboe to sustain a local ministry.
Nck
Devious nck still fails to share the correct information. Yes, money was deposited locally.BUT every single envelope that has a name on it had to be processed into the file of the giver and the amount they gave. The money amount was written on the envelope. Please stop acting like the authority on every thing. It is obvious you don't know crap about a lot of stuff.
12:13
I was there for decades. The first time I saw those envelopes was in about 1986
I know we never used them for offerings. Always anonymous offerings, unless of course one decided to put ones name on it.
I'm not devious. Those are the facts regarding the areas you dont no shit about (30%)
You sound like a tkachian era administrator.
Nck
I am another one that counted money at Feast sites. The Pocono's and Lake of the Ozarks. Yes, the money was deposited locally for security reasons, but envelopes were saved with the amount of the offering marked on it. Most of the cash received was after some moron from Pasadena or the Feast coordinator would ask people to empty their pockets and purses of coins. Everyone, including Pasadena, hated that.
12:43
Good thing Huckleberry Finn was not a contributer. Is your counting story pre 1985 if I may inquire?
I am so warped by this blog that when you mentioned Lake of the Ozarks my mind processed Lake of fire.
Nck
I would like to add a comment. There were 7 holy day offerings. Two were at the FOT, the rest were taken up locally during DUB, Pent, Trump., and Atonement. This is how they were handled locally. First 98% were holy day envelopes with pt number, member name and address. There was a place for the amount. The envelopes were not opened unless there was change inside, then only the change was removed. There were several members in the back room tallying the amounts. Loose bills were counted then placed in an empy envelop and sealed. The loose change was counted. The total amount from the envelopes, plus cash from bills, plus total from coins were tallied. One of the members would write a personal check for the coins. That person would keep the coins because it was too heavy to mail. Then two of those who counted would sign to verify the amount. The money was always counted with several people present. In my case a deacon or elder was present. Next step was to call Pasadena accounting office with total amount. The next business day the money was packaged then taken to the post office and sent registered mail return receipt required. The envelopes were processed in Pasadena and receipts were mailed out by Pasadena. I was in WCOG from 1964 to 1995. This how they handled it during that time frame. I am not saying once it got to Pasadena that it was used probably. I was in a number of church areas and receipts for holy day offerings were never handed out locally. And from time to time there were tithe checks on members. If a man was recommended for ordination, a tithe check was automatic.
Jim
A further comment on members being checked on. Back in the 60,s and 70,s when Rod Meredith was in charge of ministerial services. Church areas had a local member file. Every time a member counseled with a member, a visit slip was filled out. Hard copy was kept locally and soft copy was mailed to church admin. This was done every Monday. When a minister was transferred, all the sins, problems and what all was there for the new minister to peruse. Sometime in the 70,s this was done away with.
Jim
FFS said: “Yes, we all had a number.”
Was it 666? ;-)
Jim.
Thanks for the explanation.
I was talking about tithing receipts I handed out as a teen.
Any pre tkachian Aussies (4000), Canucks (8000), British (3500), South Africans (1200), philipino (5500), French (900), German (800) etc like to comment of their offerings were personalized???
Nck
If nck didn't see a holy day envelope until 1986, he must have lived outside the U.S. I began attending in the U.S. in 1972 and holy day envelopes had been in use well before that. Since charitable contributions were tax deductible in the U.S., the WCG carefully recorded all donations so they could mail out an annual contribution statement for tax purposes. (And, of course, the donation records were available for less benign uses.) Although American members could have contributed anonymously, few did, especially those who itemized their taxes.
Other countries had different tax laws and I'm sure it was more common to contribute anonymously in areas where it was not tax deductible.
Each person who was added to the U.S. mailing list was given a subscriber number. That number remained the same if the person progressed to donor, co-worker or member status. I haven't seen or even thought about my subscriber number in over 20 years but it jumped into my mind as soon as I read about it in FFS's post. I worked in DPC (the Data Processing Center) in Pasadena for some years and updated the algorithm that created the number for new subscribers around the late 1970s.
The number consisted of the date that the person was added to the file in YYMMDD format followed by a four-digit sequence number indicating the order that the person was added on that date followed by a hyphen and a check digit. (There were several rules that I have long since forgotten that required not using certain sequence numbers in an attempt to make it more difficult for a data entry operator to enter an incorrect number that would pass the check digit test.)
Nck says we are all liars and therefore our observations don’t matter. He knows everything about everything.
Don't be so hard on Nck - it is the variety of viewpoints that make this site so interesting - including those posted anonymously by Bob Thiel.
Don't be so hard on Nck - it is the variety of viewpoints that make this site so interesting - including those posted anonymously by Bob Thiel.
I enjoy Jim Meredith's anonymous comments.
Ok, I found my little white bible that has my pt number in it. That number is, er, was: 680606-1389-7. So, there you have it. That number was on every label with my name and address on it sent to me from hq, including tithe envelopes.
In the early days, before Protestant churches embraced tithing, it was unusual enough as a practice that it frequently triggered IRS audits. Those donation slips were your “get out of jail free” card.
One of the things I found refreshing about Dr. Gene Scott in the ‘80s was that he wouldn’t give receipts. He taught that if you give, give from the heart, don’t worry about the tax deduction.
BB
Reading George Warner’s book (see blogpost https://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com/2018/11/george-warner-adds-another-chapter-to.html) I noted even he supports those members experiences who affirm that member contributions were monitored:
The church had always stated that tithing was a thing between a person and God, and the church didn’t check on the tithing status of its members. This, of course, was another lie. I had had a minister walk into the Personnel Office and ask to use a computer to look up a suspect’s tithing record.
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