Sunday, April 7, 2019

The Biggest Issue In The Church Today


Pride. 

Pride has always been the biggest issue in the Churches of God. In return for your support of what was considered the Most Important Man in the entire Universe (and his hirelings), you would be endowed with the highest reward, titles, recognition, power, and prestige. 

Someday. 

The element of pride was introduced from the very beginning of your discovery of Herbert Armstrong's radio or television program. You were suddenly brought into very point in space and time of decision where you were given the change to either accept or reject what you had been exposed to. Should you deny it, you were told, you have rejected the opportunity to be a pioneer first-fruit in the New Order 3 to 5 years around the corner. Should you accept it - or, try to accept it, it should be said - you will be inducted into an elite - but very expensive club - where your pride will explode exponentially, and your humility will be constantly challenged and tested. 

Indeed, if you buy into the theology of Herbert Armstrong, the rewards program you are buying into is most unusual and impressive - of extreme importance and prestige! Immediately, you are told you are privy to classified, detailed, hard to understand information that you now have the ability to suddenly understand. You are the recipient of the One and Only True Gospel - which, by the way, was concealed from all of humanity from the time of Christ until Herbert Armstrong came on the scene. This made you a very uncommonly special individual right off the bat. 

Yes, you were told, you were hand-picked, specially selected by God himself to be in his only True Church. Yet this assignment comes with a very heavy, very pricey cost - not just financially, but in every area of your life. 

If, however - you do submit to the rigorous demands and expectations of the Calling - the rejection of what is to be rejected, the acceptance of what is to be accepted - and fully assimilate into the collective mindset of the corporate - you have - in your mind - become what no one else in the world is except you and those assimilated with you - a Member of the Church of God. 

You get it. You understand it. You believe it. You are most important, whether you are a child, a teenager, or a baptized member - you know exactly what is going to happen and when. You know why it is going to happen. You understand things about the World News, and prophecy, that no one else outside your group can possibly understand. You are called, chosen, and one of the Elect who has been begotten out of this world to bring in the Wonderful World Tomorrow. 

That's your mission. Yes, and when that Wonderful World Tomorrow comes in just two or three Feasts - you will be someone most people could never imagine they would be. You will be a Ruler in a New World Order. How great of a ruler? How powerful of a ruler? That depends on how well you have bought into, supported, and assimilated yourself into obedience into the teachings and commandments and interpretations of Herbert Armstrong and company. 

Not only will you be a ruler - you will be ruling over humans as a Super Spirit in the Millennium. They'll be human - you? You'll be powerful. You can walk through walls, order commands, judge, discipline, punish, report - you can be an authority figure with divine power. Yes, I said divine power - because you were taught you would rise up and become God Himself. You were taught YOU would even be powerful enough to counsel the Father Himself. You were taught all of this was just years away - and all you had to do was submit, obey - and most of all - PAY. 

Whether one believes it or not - the amount of pride this developed in a person was dangerously enormous. You believed this - nothing else in this world or on this Earth mattered. Your job - your family - your income - your credit - none of this meant anything, it would all be gone in just a few years anyway. You were being trained for a purpose far bigger than anything or anyone could ever understand, because you believed what you were told you were. You believed in what you were told would happen. No one coupd sway you. Because YOU had the truth. And you would hang on to that truth until your very last breath of life. 

The problem came in when the truth revealed that that "truth" you believed was NOT the truth at all. That "truth" was always punted down the line. That "truth" was always moved. That "truth" was always explained away when it failed to materialize. That "truth" turned out to be falsehoods - even outright lies that were meant to develop and enhance a physical real estate plan and business. The truth turned out to be lies, but the pride did not just evaporate, for many. 

For many, it was beyond comprehension or belief that everything you believed, accepted, learned, bought into, rejected, ignored, removed, or avoided was a cunning financial con job. Yet, the evidence - whether believed or not - shows that this is exactly what Herbert's Worldwide Church of God was. Yet believing that that's what it was - many could not, have not, and will not accept what is absolutely and categorically truth. 

For many of these leaders, instead of recognizing falsehoods as falsehoods, because of pride - they buried themselves deeper into the falsehoods. Now, because of pride -they see themselves as much greater than they were before. Now, they aren't just members or local pastors. Now, they are increasingly more important and more powerful, spiritually. Now, they are set apart far more then they ever were before. Now, they have understanding that no one else has. Now, they are a person of Biblical Importance - a spiritual and historical icon - an Apostle or an Overseer, and most important - a Business Owner of a tax-free enterprise of the potential of income of massive proportions. The rooted pride is now growing like a cancer far more than it ever had before.And suddenly, the only thing that matters is fueling that pride and ego, and believing and spouting lies at the expense of everyone and anyone around you - and nothing and no one is going to get in YOUR way of YOU being THE most IMPORTANT person on the face of the Earth. That is the power of pride. That is the power of lies. That is the power of deception. That is what you see in many splinter leaders today, whether they believe it or not. 

Do you know of splinter leaders who have told lies and denied it? Of course you do. Do you know of splinter leaders who have said something is absolutely, definitely, positively, totally going to happen on a specific date - and that date comes, and nothing happens? Of course you do. Do you know of splinter leaders who have used the financial pushes for those reasons of failed prophecy and used them for material riches and jewels and card and jets because Herbert did and they now can to? Of course you do. That's the truth of the power of what pride does to someone. Pride can turn people into selfish, greedy, depraved, cold-hearted, lying, cunning, deceptive, and abusive people who will act in any way they can - appearing even to be holy - to feed their ego and fuel their supposed power through fear. This is what the teachings of Herbert Armstrong have done. They have enabled, fueled, and multiplied like cancerous cells pride - to the ruin of those they rope into their destructive patterns. They point to their materialism as proof of their calling and divine appointment - uncaring that their materialism was acquired to the detriment and harm of those who sacrifice for their gain. This is the effect of pride. This is what the truth has shown has happened. 

Pride is an arrogant, lying, and uncaring force that always leads to self-fulfillment to the harm of others. The amount of pride that exists within the Churches of God is enormous - supposed "ministers" who either ignore or explain away the realities of the failures of their theological conclusions - or members who are convinced to believe in lies, using circular reasoning and irrational or untrue ideas to support their delusions - is a twisted distortion of reality that is too hard for many to even begin to think about. Because in Armstrongism in some cases but not all, wrong is seen as right, and right is seen as wrong - and the important is seen as unimportant, and the important is seen as trivial - mixed with JUST enough truth to be convincing and appear honest. 

It is pride that started the Churches of God, it is pride that flourished the Churches of God, and it is pride that ignores truth in the Churches of God today. In the face of pride - falsehoods are distorted to appear truthful.This is what happens when materialism and spirituality mix - a potion not confined to Armstrongism - but a force that can rear its ugly head in any environment where money and power mix. 

It is pride that enables, money that fuels, and selfish ambition that continues the farce Armstrongism is today. True religion - you know the definition. It's not in corporate Christianity. It's not Armstrongism. It's the whisper of Christianity in those who live Christianity in their daily lives, and the power of love through the Holy Spirit. 

Not Jets, BMW's, buildings, campuses, lies, deceptions, and abuses, or selfish ambition of power, rank, money, buildings, or supposed eternal power. Wake up to the lies and the deceptions. See truth for what it is. Run from the face of evil. Live for love, and live for Christ - not supporting and enabling pride and evil. Reclaim your responsibility, and who you are. In Prayer - In Christ - Reclaim yourself. Because the only thing pride does in its bed of lies is eat, rot, and rust.

by SHT

32 comments:

Tonto said...

Vanity , lust and geed. Hard not to find this in virtually everything and all activities of man, yes , including the so called " True Church".

The Armstrongs would have been wise to have listened a bit more to their Buddhist friends , who teach that "in the end, everyone must realize old age, disease and death". Solomon in Ecclesiastes also came to the same conclusions.

Anonymous said...

Do you imagine that Orthodox churches don't exhibit arrogant pride when they pompously claim that anyone who is not "Orthodox" (embrace the Trinity for example) is a "heretic?"

What started the organisations that comprise the Churches of God (and brought in members especially during the early years) was realisation that Orthodox Christianity is different from the way of life Christ taught in scripture. Scripture is more than the "New Testament" - the entire bible is the Word of God and Christ is that "Word" (John 1:1).

Orthodox Protestantism never actually followed their original motto - "Sola Scriptura". As a result, Protestantism is now visibly dying some 500 years after Luther nailed his theses to a church door. Church buildings are empty on Sunday. Some major denominations even have Pastors or "Priests" that are openly atheists! There is an increasing odour of denominational desperation with some Protestants seeking ecumenical reconciliation with Rome for moral support.

But most of their practices, traditions and holidays have no scriptural basis at all. THAT is why some left them for the Churches of God.

Darren C. said...

Orthodox Protestantism never actually followed their original motto - "Sola Scriptura". As a result, Protestantism is now visibly dying some 500 years after Luther nailed his theses to a church door.

Following sola Scriptura is precisely why there are all these denominations, and is precisely what leads to movements such as Armstrongism.

If we truly blow the dust off the Bible, we see no hint of sola Scriptura taught therein (in fact we see the opposite). Quite an irony. It's a self-refuting proposition.

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Kevin McMillen said...

Darren said:

"If we truly blow the dust off the Bible, we see no hint of sola Scriptura taught therein (in fact we see the opposite). Quite an irony. It's a self-refuting proposition."


Elaborate please. I'm interested in your observations.

I personally don't see the problem with "scripture alone", (that is, if you are a believer in the bible and that it is "God breathed") the problem is that we all think and reason differently (not a bad thing) so we come to different conclusions. There's no problem if there is respect for differing views, but that's not allowed in any cult. WCG included.

Kevin McMillen
Kevinmcmillen64@gmail.com

TLA said...

I heard a message from a non COG group recently.
The speaker started off by saying if we had any disagreements, let him know. He is just a guy.

The only time I remember an elder admitting from the pulpit, they could make mistakes, and if they did, to pray for them, he was immediately publicly rebuked from the pulpit by the minister in charge with the words to the effect that the ministry never made mistakes.

This poor elder made the supreme mistake of being humble, and admitting he was just a person like the rest of us. (I really liked the guy - but he was not treated well by his superiors.)

The speaker I heard in the non COG group was extremely dynamic - last time I heard a dynamic speaker in a COG service was over 20 years ago.
If the speaker is not excited about his message, how can they expect the audience to be excited?

There was a comment on an earlier blog that people were afraid to applaud a dynamic speaker. On the contrary, if we had ever heard a dynamic sermon, we would have cheered and carried the speaker out on our shoulders.

Anonymous said...

TLA wrote:

if we had ever heard a dynamic sermon, we would have cheered and carried the speaker out on our shoulders.

That's just it. If applause were allowed, it would brutally embarrass the men at the top of the organizations, who would rarely receive applause except from brown-nosing deacons and would-be deacons. If applause were allowed, it would quickly become mandatory when senior men spoke, which means the applause would lose its impact and possibly even create jealousy and backlash when also given to any applause-worthy juniors.

Gordon Feil said...

I never could get excited about ruling. Being with God and tapping into his thoughts and understanding, Yessss!

Pride is so often compensatory for inferiority. Seems to often accompany fear, and there sure seems to be a lot of fear in some COG notables.

Byker Bob said...

Back in the day, there were a handful of speakers who gave consistently inspiring sermons. I always looked forward to hearing from Al Portune Sr., and David Antion as examples. I know I’ll catch some flack for this, but GTA could give the most moving sermons a person could ever hope to hear. I’m certain that others worked hard to present interesting messages, and occasionally they would come through with one. Sooner or later, anyone who speaks regularly seems to be repeating themselves, especially when they know they have a captive audience that’s commanded to listen.

BB

Gordon Feil said...

Darren, do you know what sola scriptura means?

Darren C. said...

Kevin,

What I mean is that the idea of trusting the "Bible alone" as our sure guide for religious truth is not taught in the Bible, so the Sola Scriptura teaching itself fails according to its own standard.

Moreover, it leaves no room for a legitimate authority to declare the truth amidst conflicting teachings, all claiming to be based on Scripture.

Instead we are left to "agree to disagree," and attribute virtue to saying no one can know for sure and we'll all find out the truth in the end.

But that's not how the Church operated in NT times or in the Early Church immediately afterward. Sola Scriptura is a late, Protestant invention - - a man-made tradition.

It's been said that Sola Scriptura is a blueprint for anarchy. To me, the COG bunch is a perfect illustration of that.

No offense intended. I grew up in WCG and was CGI till around 30 years old.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-ssvUvOTeXHZkt1LWVjRWlnRzVFTlpscHNPc3pwN2NrZDhj/view?usp=drivesdk

Anonymous said...

Sola Scriptura (Latin: by scripture alone) is a theological doctrine held by some Christian denominations that the Christian scriptures are the sole infallible rule of faith and practice.
Sola scriptura - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura
Feedback

Byker Bob said...

The problem being that anytime anyone makes the claim that anything is “perfect”, people will either accidentally discover imperfections, or go looking for them. If one finds any, it goes without saying that there are others yet to be discovered.

The Armstrongs should have known better than to advance this! They themselves called our attention to “mistranslations” which would have thwarted some of their doctrines.

Most people are totally unaware that the very act of translating from one language to another is essentially paraphrasing.

I say these things as a believer.

BB

Anonymous said...

"Whether one believes it or not - the amount of pride this developed in a person was dangerously enormous."



no Dennis...if the end result is pride, then you don't get it and you aren't in it.


and as for sola scriptura, Timothy was reminded that the scriptures (OT...there was no NT yet) could make him wise unto salvation...and Paul praised the Bereans for searching the scriptures to prove whether or not he was telling the truth..

now, sola scriptura that isn't....but the scriptures are the guide....

we can't say we are actually "scripture alone" because the calendar isn't in there, for one, but we come mighty close...

there are organizations that push "tradition"...but if you examine their traditions you'll find that they were heresy before they became tradition.

Gordon Feil said...

So Darren, what is the authority for determining truth? Or who is it? What's his name?

SL said...

“True religion - you know the definition. It's not in corporate Christianity. It's not Armstrongism. It's the whisper of Christianity in those who live Christianity in their daily lives, and the power of love through the Holy Spirit. ”

That was absolutely beautiful, and this article is really spot on from all that I’ve experienced and come to see clearly. I still believe in trying to follow God as best as I can, keep the Sabbath and Holy Days, etc., but I no longer consider myself somehow “special” or superior to others in other denominations. I just try to do the best that I can.

As for ruling, that never appealed to me. Healing, fixing, helping, having the ability to ease someone’s suffering, that was very appealing, but I could care less for being “in charge”. One CoG leader used to say something along the lines of “you don’t want to be stuck just being a doorman in the kingdom”, and every time I would think to myself “I’d be honored to hold a door open for Christ.” Not tooting my own horn here, just trying to point out that not everyone who looked forward to the resurrection did so because of pride, although I agree that many did and still do.

Anonymous said...

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Darren C. said...

Gordon Feil said...
So Darren, what is the authority for determining truth? Or who is it? What's his name?


Gordon,

Jesus is the Truth, and his revelation has been safeguarded and proclaimed by his visible body the Church for 2000 years.

Find a 2000-year-old Church and you'll have your answer.

Gordon Feil said...

Darren, can you be more specific?

Anonymous said...

I thought this article a attack on being the bride of Christ, and people striving for a better life on Christ's return. Accusations of 'pride' is frequently used a club to beat people down. This is done in oder to stifle their growth and gain power over them. It's a bully trait. There is some truth in this article, but as a whole is murderous. The killjoy author should be ashamed of himself.

I'm outing myself. I'm proud to be bride of Christ, and am 'proud.' And I won't be intimidated. SHT can go eat cake.

Anonymous said...

"Find a 2000-year-old Church and you'll have your answer."


Well, it can't be the Roman Catholic Church since it's only 1900yr old.
Maybe it's the one that it split off from?

Anonymous said...

Not long before I stopped attending LCG, Meredith made a comment in a sermon that he didn't think it was a bad thing to applause if you feel moved to. I want to say this wasn't long before the FOT but my memory could be a bit off on that. Anyways come FOT-time the brethren clapped at every little thing. It was so over the top that I almost started laughing a few times. I understand that it was FOT but it was beyond the point of applauding because you were moved to. This was bloating up the higher ups heads to make yourself feel/look better. By the end of the LGD I felt like a leper for not joining in. I have no idea how much longer that continued or if it still does. Like I said though this wasn't long before I left.

One other note, looking back now I always remember the men of my congregation specifically always walked around like peacocks trying to prove importance. If the literarily did not stand with their chests out and head far enough back to see up their noses it was the way that they talked to each other. Quite comical actually. I didn't seem to notice it as much in other congregations but it's funny the odd things you remember when something triggers your memories.

Anonymous said...

SHT wrote: "...Pride has always been the biggest issue in the Churches of God..."

I doubt that statement. What causes pride should be an even bigger issue than pride!

For example, in the book of Job we're told about pride and one of our enemies, Leviathan, another one of hundreds of names God has for Satan:

Job 41:15 His scales are his PRIDE, shut up together as with a close seal.
:33 Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear.
:34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of PRIDE.

Just how powerful is that king that was made without fear? We may read elsewhere:

"He that committeth sin is of the devil..." I John 3:8

Are there any among us who can say we are sinless? Pride is just one of many sins.

Satan caused Cain to kill his brother: "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother..." I John 3:12

How is Satan able to be so "successful" at affecting human beings?

"Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?" James 4:5

Obviously, that is not the "spirit in man" that allows us to be different from a bird, fish or animal. Lust and envy are not fruits of God's Spirit; they are fruits of god's (Satan's) spirit.

Man's heart, to some degree, is explained in scriptures like: Gen 6:5, 8:21, Jeremiah 17:9, Romans 8:7, Galatians 5:19-21, etc. That's your heart, SHT, and mine! What do you think it would take to overcome hearts like that?

Is pride really the biggest issue? It does not appear so.

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Eph 6:12

Of course, Satan would not want any of us to believe those words, so people just continue on blaming and judging one another. If you were Satan, how would you handle mankind to enable them to become your pawns? When Cain killed his brother Cain was doing Satan's will as a pawn of Satan!

Cain and Abel will both be in God's Kingdom. How do we know that?

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you FROM the foundation of the world:

And Satan and his angels?

:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

What means it?

Know Sin, Know the devil I John 3:8

Again, what means it?

No devil, No Sin

What means it? No more pride! Pride is just another one of Satan's many works, so obviously manifested in the lives of human beings as they demonstrate by continuing to blame and judge one another. How will pride cease?

As John told us: "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." I John 3:8

That may be complimented with Paul's thoughts:

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Pride, a form of bondage, is not the biggest issue in the "churches" of God; there are bigger issues.

And time will tell...

John

Anonymous said...

Find a 2000-year-old Church and you'll have your answer.

A Church that existed before Jesus' ministry, and maybe even before John's? Would that be the Church of Mithras?

Anonymous said...

Darren C. said...
"...proclaimed by his visible body the Church..."

If "the church" is the "visible body" of one particular god, what about all the other "visible bodies" of all the other gods?

If the mere fact that one god has some followers is proof enough that this god has revealed "truth" to some people and subsequently safeguarded it...

...Then is it not also proof enough for every other god that also has the same kind of "visible body"? And proof enough that the "proclamations" from the "visible bodies" of other gods must also constitute the revelation of other "truth" revealed to other people and subsequently safeguarded as well?

Just setting aside the obvious problem of the vicious circularity of that entire argument for a moment...

...Once you've accepted one deity on the basis of a set of criteria, it is impossible to rationally deny other deities that meet the same criteria. Not to say that you can't do this irrationally, of course...

"...Find a 2000-year-old Church and you'll have your answer."

Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Jainism, Confucianism, Buddhism, Taoism, and Shintoism are all traditions that are even older than 2,000 years, also date back to an original founder, and which still have followers today, so do each of these traditions yield valid answers?

Of course not, since the initial criteria was irrational from the outset.

What are we left with? Certainly not any "answers," that's for sure...

Darren C. said...

Anonymous said...
If the mere fact that one god has some followers is proof enough that this god has revealed "truth" to some people and subsequently safeguarded it...

...Then is it not also proof enough for every other god that also has the same kind of "visible body"? And proof enough that the "proclamations" from the "visible bodies" of other gods must also constitute the revelation of other "truth" revealed to other people and subsequently safeguarded as well?

Just setting aside the obvious problem of the vicious circularity of that entire argument for a moment...

...Once you've accepted one deity on the basis of a set of criteria, it is impossible to rationally deny other deities that meet the same criteria. Not to say that you can't do this irrationally, of course...



Your critique would be valid and well-taken if that were my argument.

But Christians don't claim Christianity is true just because there are Christians; we say it's true primarily because Jesus rose from the dead.

Kevin McMillen said...

Darren 12:13pm

Sorry but your argument for "truth" doesn't work in this case.

You may "believe" Jesus rose from the dead to be true, based upon faith, I also "believe" that to be true, based upon faith. But I know that it's true that water is wet because of experience. That's something that we don't have in claiming that Jesus rose from the dead.

The fact is that 11:27 is completely correct. Whether the church has been around for 1900 years or two days, there's no way to prove it's the only body with "truth". Unless there is scripture to back up that claim, or divine miracles I guess.

If your faith is based solely upon an historic "authority" (an unbroken line of bishops and popes) then you have nothing any more reliable than scripture.

Kevin McMillen

Kevin McMillen said...

Faith is irrational in a physical world.

I have no problem with that as a Christian believer.

Kevin McMillen

Anonymous said...

The biggest problem within the Church of God today in 2019 is deception.
Whilst pride has it's place in the spiritual problems in today's cog landscape.
Deception is a huge problem rotting the groups from within. Leaders of COG groups are full of deceit. They write one thing and do another, many groups have developed deceitful masks.
Deceit and all its spiritually wickedness is a huge problem in my opinion.

Kevin McMillen said...

Abraham obeyed God without the need of a cog group! I'm not necessarily saying go it alone since I myself fairly regularly attend one of the large splinters, but I don't allow them to do my thinking for me, nor am I a member and I make sure that's known if the situation arises. I don't press that fact though. I merely state that I'm a member of the spiritual cog and leave it at that if I can.

Kevin McMillen

Anonymous said...

Kevin McMillen,April 11, 2019 at 12:47 PM, said: "...Abraham obeyed God without the need of a cog group! I'm not necessarily saying go it alone since I myself fairly regularly attend one of the large splinters, but I don't allow them to do my thinking for me, nor am I a member and I make sure that's known if the situation arises. I don't press that fact though. I merely state that I'm a member of the spiritual cog and leave it at that if I can..."

Yes, Kevin, Abram did not need some cogroup in order to obey God, but something was needed in order to obey or he would have been no different than everyone else on earth in his day.

Abram obeyed, but he had something given to him, from God, that most people on earth had not received even to this day, and that is faith, a fruit of God's Spirit:

"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went." Hebrews 11:8

That faith Abram received came from God by measure, or by proportion:

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the MEASURE of faith.
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the PROPORTION of faith;

And when God, for example, was not providing Abram that faith, Abram would lie and laugh at God.

During one of those times, Pharaoh asked Abram: "...What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife?" Genesis 12:18

Abram was so faithless, that rather than "believe" God regarding Sarai bearing him a son he and his wife thought up a "way that seems right" and Abram had a son through Hagar.

And that faithless laughing, which came later in Abram's life, after his name was changed to Abraham?

Genesis 17:15 "And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and LAUGHED, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?"

Even later, Sarah follows "suit," and also lies and laughs after she overhears that she is going to give birth to a male.

Without involvement of God's Spirit, and God's gift of faith, one cannot obey God. Scriptures prove that over and over again.

Anyway, yes, Abraham did not need a cogroup to obey God, but to do so he needed that gift of God's faith. Those of God's Church also need God's faith, but it is not something worked up by SELF. God controls all of that, similar to what God did in Abram's life when Abram became the workmanship of God's hands.

God's will be done, and every man may look forward to a measure of that faith (Rom 12:3), because God is not a respecter of persons, but that will of God, and His timing, is all in His hands.

And time will tell...

John

Kevin said...

John, I agree with you 100%

Kevin