Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!
With all the new crazy self-appointed Chief Overseers, Apostles, Prophets, Pharisees, legalists, and outright liars leading various Churches of God today, it is important to hold these agents of deception accountable.
Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
Although Bob said the LCG had "lost the mantle" and had gone astray in their teachings, he is still dependent up it for claiming his "Philadelphia" lineage, "double blessing", (perhaps) being a prophet, the (possibly) end-time thorn in the side of the Catholic Church... His original gripe seemed to be that Rod asked for his advice, and then didn't take it - we've all been in situations like that.
In hindsight, it was weird how NO ONE talked to me personally, asked how I felt about it, or what my expectations might be when put into the ministry. There simply came that day in a student assembly where the list of ministerial assignments were announced. News to me right up until that moment. We were being sent to Minneapolis, MN to work under Keith Thomas, Bob Jones, Vic Kubik and Ben Morrison. Never heard of any of them at the time. Not exactly the way to go into ministry of any kind.
Also in hindsight, no one spent one minute with us about actually being in ministry. It was learn as you go and took all the upheaval for me to learn that, while I went to AC thinking it was a legit "seminary" and I felt I wanted to be in ministry as a kid, etc, it was one of life's bigger mistakes. Though it is also a lesson in "the butterfly effect" where if one thing did not happen, then another could not either which one might wish to have happened. So it's all good even though born of mud and blood and beer.
I leaned on my Presbyterian background and ministerial examples for the most part to be a church pastor. The drama surrounding pastors in WCG or at HQ could come up with was astounding and not something I ever grew up with or experienced with any Presbyterian leadership, pastors or organizations.
Why anyone would even want to be an Apostle or Prophet is beyond me save that it appeals to narcissists and those who fancy themselves as teachers of "the truth" when in fact it merely more opinions with no skills at prophetic success. (I believe not in prophecy either as no one can know the real future and if we could then what's the point of going against what will happen? I know...turn from one's evil ways and it won't. That's the story line of the Apostle and Prophet and also the moneymaker and ego stroker.
It seems Dennis was truly called. He did not desire nor covet or worked toward the office. I believe he is truly converted too. Although he is a lone voice crying out from the meteorite craters of religion.
Dennis - you are wrong about prophetic success - HWA had a 1% accuracy rate. So far, BT is batting 0%, so HWA is infinitely more successful.
Of course 1% would be abject failure in most people's eyes - but was that really his goal in life to be a prophet or a financial success and meet important people?
Measured by his goals, HWA was very successful. What are Bobby's real goals?
Dennis said, "Not exactly the way to go into ministry of any kind".
MY COMMENT - My recollection from the 1960s/1970s Worldwide Church of God's practice was that, like being a member, the ministry was a calling. You could NOT decide on your own to become a minister - you were called and guess who did the calling? So it doesn't surprise me at all that you found out that you were "called" into the ministry at a student assembly when a list of names and Church assignments were made. May not have been the way to go into the ministry, but it was the way the WCG did things.
As I mentioned to you once during a telephone conversation, my father and Keith Thomas became good friends. Similar age and backgrounds.
In the almost arrested, doubly blessed, doctorate from mail order degree mill, bitter Prophet Bob Thiel's case, he was not "called" into the ministry but was rejected by Rod Meredith. So delusional Bitter Bob Thiel had to create his own calling with the double blessing BS. Not the way the WCG did things.
I wonder if it will ever dawn on Bob that he has wasted so much of his time and life.
I hope not, because he is unstable enough to be another Terry Ratzmann or Philip Apartian. Just look at how unpleasant he becomes in dealing with his butt-hurt over Spanky's rejection of him. If he ever figured out that he wasn't actually God's most super-special end-time prophet, I don't believe he could go on living. Either he would suicide like Philip Apartian, or he would go out in a newsmaking murder-suicide like Ratzmann or Jim Jones.
Furthermore, Bob is a naturopath, so if he dies of cancer it will invalidate him as a medical professional. If Bob ever received a cancer diagnosis, I can see him going insane and lashing out at those around him. The best thing that could happen to him and his few followers would be to die in his sleep from some sudden-acting malady.
Byker Bob said, "I wonder if it will ever dawn on Bob that he has wasted so much of his time and life".
MY COMMENT - Not very likely Byker if history tells us anything about the HWA wannabees. He's "invested" too much of his time and life into his delusions. It's too late to turn back now. I think he's too far gone and will settle for his low wattage religious business. As we both know, none of the HWA wannabees are having an impact on the planet.
Most of us here on Banned were blessed to get out. In my case leaving in 1976 with minimal financial damages but with much personal emotional damages particularly with the estrangement from my family that stayed in. My mother, a member of Global and then LCG following the demise of WCG, died in 2009. Things were never right between us after I left "the Church" in 1976.
I also found, and forgive if I repeat myself, that it is a nasty position to put a man or woman in ministry. It is not real and not how real people are. It promotes mask wearing out of the fear of not being all the things the Bible demands as in "become ye therefore perfect as your father in heaven is perfect." Good luck with that whether it means perfect as in sinless or mature as in mature like God.
I found that members galore demanded forgiveness for every human shortcoming but ministers had better never. . It was and is an unrealistic position to be put in or to put oneself in by choice. Frankly, I was not righteous enough to be a minster of the spotless kind. I grew up such the "good boy" and then was the good AC college boy. Only after getting into the real world of people and out of the cocoon of my youth and AC did I understand the struggles of mind and heart everyone and I mean everyone goes through in living out their lives. I was rather quick to "forgive" in the church setting because I could easily say to the member, "oh yeah...I get that!" Long story. Crazy long story.....
PS While not a fan of Paul's role in the early NT Church or trusting his mental stability, I did find this genuine statement, far as we know, by Paul as about as real as it gets.
Romans 7:15-20 New International Version (NIV) 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."
He likened it "sin living in me". To me it is just being a human being without all the need to drum up something like an evil host parasite infesting humans. It's just people. And coming to see it in oneself and admitting it so at times is a freedom most can only wish for when they endeavor to cover it, deny it and act like it is a problem way of being for everyone but them. You know, like Flurry, Pack, Thiel and all the other self appointed types who simply must be viewed by their followers as more special, more strong, more moral and more sinless than the unwashed. We can all recall RCM crowing about "never having committed a major sin in my life". Well there ya go...that was a major one right there! :)
Russia losing control of Eastern Europe and letting Germany recombine. The Soviet Union collapse was only anticipated by a very few who really analyzed the facts available and calculated they were much weaker than people thought. Prophesy enough different things and you may get one or two things right.
Re the 1% accuracy rate of HWA’s predictions I’d surmise it’s actually LESS THAN 1% and more likely a decimal fraction.
For instance, if we say he got the following specific predictions right:
1) USSR wouldn’t invade USA ✔️ 2) East & West Germany would unite✔️
Then that’s a success rate of 2 out of AT LEAST 300 predictions=0.67%
Even if we give him another (if it occurs): 3) UK will leave the EU✔️
However, we must note HWA more specifically predicted the UK wouldn’t form a part of the “USE” or Beast kingdom so Idk whether we should even include this as an accurate prediction. But, even if we do add that into the equation it’d be 3/300. That would boost his accuracy rate to a measly 1%. And that’s assuming the tally is correct ie 300. If it was over 300 it would still be a decimal fraction eg 0.99% If it’s less then his accuracy rate would be a whole number 3/200=eg 1.5%
BTW Has anyone ever tallied all of HWA’s predictions since he started his PT magazine so we know exactly how many he made? Was it actually 300 or less or more?
It's a hard call to determine the number of individual predictions he made, compared to his overall erroneous framework. In the early PTs, he had "prophetic timelines" that had a number of false dated claims, along with remarks like, Rommel will be victorious and go for Jerusalem.
Elsewhere I remarked about problems with the various editions of Mark Armstrong's book on HWA's "prophetic accuracy". One thing I thought was a real hoot was he chose an article in a PT regarding the USSR/USA "prophecy" applied to the Cuban missile crisis. While using that as a mark for HWA's "accuracy", another article in the same PT - written by Dr Hoeh - claimed that China would (very soon) invade India.
My point to the annoyance of many is that if you change the timing and leave out religion hwa is so far 65 percent accurate and perhaps a 100 percent when "the times of the gentiles" ascends.
My point is that he was the mouthpiece for those who really pull the strings.
For starters I would direct you to the Rockefellar papers as a hint about the "world tomorrow".
HWA is 100 percent accurate, except for the "religion thing" that seemed to have hooked regular contributors to the MESSAGE about the coming global control state enforcing peace on mankind.
If you were a policy maker for the government prior to WWII set with the task to convince the weary demmocratic American people in the heartland to sacrifice their sons in order to join the Allied Effort to defeat an enemy destroying western culture and markets.
Would you then support a radio station with the HWA message that german victory was near or would you support NPO with a message, this is the government speaking we are going to join another European civil war and send your kids?????? How would you spend some of those allocated tax dollars.
And during the Cold War when the BACKBONE of American POWER exists of M utual A ssured D estruction?? Would you have your career diplomats explain that concept or would you have "your people" support a very talented networker bringing together all elites at dinners, to SCREAM at those European elites that the END would come by nuclear holocaust UNLESS a strong hand from someplace would intervene?????
What would send the message that the USA WOULD fire the rockets IF fired upon!!!!!!!!!!!!!??
Please watch "Charlie Wilson" war on Netflix again.
HWA is 100 percent accurate (except when he's wrong)
Nck, HWA would said the Germans would win, and the USSR would never be at war with the USA. We and the allies continued to fight, and won. The USA continued its Cold War military buildup, and the USSR collapsed. I'm not sure about the point you are trying to make.
One reason Hitler failed was because his military strategy was based on ideology.
For those wearing their magic HWA glasses, he will always have been right, regardless of the facts.
I must have said this about 15 million times: If HWA was right, then Jesus has returned, and we’re in the Kingdom right now.
A thought for the day: Why is it that Bible literalists and inerrantists are not HWA literalists and inerrantists? Why switch methodologies to give an old dead man a pass?
I believe a training into Foreign Policy might help, but I suppose a training in "Armstrongism" will suffice to see what I mean.
The link between HWA, US Foreign Policy, The United Nations (as an instrument of cold war us foreign policy) is obvious for any kindergarten trained person who can read.
The project was published in its entirety in 1961 as "Prospect for America"
HWA sat at the main table at the UN anniversary dinner. The Rockefellars donated the UN grounds. In the UN HQ at NY I observed a nice painting of a World in Construction. (like a skyscraper construction map) In the AC gardens still a sculpture stands with the USSR gift to the UN. Canons into plowshares.
But these are only outward signs of someone who CLEARLY and OBVIOUSLY was an announcer to the New World Order.
28 comments:
Although Bob said the LCG had "lost the mantle" and had gone astray in their teachings, he is still dependent up it for claiming his "Philadelphia" lineage, "double blessing", (perhaps) being a prophet, the (possibly) end-time thorn in the side of the Catholic Church... His original gripe seemed to be that Rod asked for his advice, and then didn't take it - we've all been in situations like that.
Thiel is DEVOLUTION not an EVOLUTION of Meredith!
In hindsight, it was weird how NO ONE talked to me personally, asked how I felt about it, or what my expectations might be when put into the ministry. There simply came that day in a student assembly where the list of ministerial assignments were announced. News to me right up until that moment. We were being sent to Minneapolis, MN to work under Keith Thomas, Bob Jones, Vic Kubik and Ben Morrison. Never heard of any of them at the time. Not exactly the way to go into ministry of any kind.
Also in hindsight, no one spent one minute with us about actually being in ministry. It was learn as you go and took all the upheaval for me to learn that, while I went to AC thinking it was a legit "seminary" and I felt I wanted to be in ministry as a kid, etc, it was one of life's bigger mistakes. Though it is also a lesson in "the butterfly effect" where if one thing did not happen, then another could not either which one might wish to have happened. So it's all good even though born of mud and blood and beer.
I leaned on my Presbyterian background and ministerial examples for the most part to be a church pastor. The drama surrounding pastors in WCG or at HQ could come up with was astounding and not something I ever grew up with or experienced with any Presbyterian leadership, pastors or organizations.
Why anyone would even want to be an Apostle or Prophet is beyond me save that it appeals to narcissists and those who fancy themselves as teachers of "the truth" when in fact it merely more opinions with no skills at prophetic success. (I believe not in prophecy either as no one can know the real future and if we could then what's the point of going against what will happen? I know...turn from one's evil ways and it won't. That's the story line of the Apostle and Prophet and also the moneymaker and ego stroker.
It seems Dennis was truly called. He did not desire nor covet or worked toward the office.
I believe he is truly converted too. Although he is a lone voice crying out from the meteorite craters of religion.
nck
Dennis - you are wrong about prophetic success - HWA had a 1% accuracy rate.
So far, BT is batting 0%, so HWA is infinitely more successful.
Of course 1% would be abject failure in most people's eyes - but was that really his goal in life to be a prophet or a financial success and meet important people?
Measured by his goals, HWA was very successful.
What are Bobby's real goals?
That cartoon pretty much sums up how Bob's cult started. He pitched a fit because Spanky refused to acknowledge his superiority.
Dennis said, "Not exactly the way to go into ministry of any kind".
MY COMMENT - My recollection from the 1960s/1970s Worldwide Church of God's practice was that, like being a member, the ministry was a calling. You could NOT decide on your own to become a minister - you were called and guess who did the calling? So it doesn't surprise me at all that you found out that you were "called" into the ministry at a student assembly when a list of names and Church assignments were made. May not have been the way to go into the ministry, but it was the way the WCG did things.
As I mentioned to you once during a telephone conversation, my father and Keith Thomas became good friends. Similar age and backgrounds.
In the almost arrested, doubly blessed, doctorate from mail order degree mill, bitter Prophet Bob Thiel's case, he was not "called" into the ministry but was rejected by Rod Meredith. So delusional Bitter Bob Thiel had to create his own calling with the double blessing BS. Not the way the WCG did things.
Richard
I wonder if it will ever dawn on Bob that he has wasted so much of his time and life.
BB
I wonder if it will ever dawn on Bob that he has wasted so much of his time and life.
I hope not, because he is unstable enough to be another Terry Ratzmann or Philip Apartian. Just look at how unpleasant he becomes in dealing with his butt-hurt over Spanky's rejection of him. If he ever figured out that he wasn't actually God's most super-special end-time prophet, I don't believe he could go on living. Either he would suicide like Philip Apartian, or he would go out in a newsmaking murder-suicide like Ratzmann or Jim Jones.
Furthermore, Bob is a naturopath, so if he dies of cancer it will invalidate him as a medical professional. If Bob ever received a cancer diagnosis, I can see him going insane and lashing out at those around him. The best thing that could happen to him and his few followers would be to die in his sleep from some sudden-acting malady.
Byker Bob said, "I wonder if it will ever dawn on Bob that he has wasted so much of his time and life".
MY COMMENT - Not very likely Byker if history tells us anything about the HWA wannabees. He's "invested" too much of his time and life into his delusions. It's too late to turn back now. I think he's too far gone and will settle for his low wattage religious business. As we both know, none of the HWA wannabees are having an impact on the planet.
Most of us here on Banned were blessed to get out. In my case leaving in 1976 with minimal financial damages but with much personal emotional damages particularly with the estrangement from my family that stayed in. My mother, a member of Global and then LCG following the demise of WCG, died in 2009. Things were never right between us after I left "the Church" in 1976.
Richard
I also found, and forgive if I repeat myself, that it is a nasty position to put a man or woman in ministry. It is not real and not how real people are. It promotes mask wearing out of the fear of not being all the things the Bible demands as in "become ye therefore perfect as your father in heaven is perfect." Good luck with that whether it means perfect as in sinless or mature as in mature like God.
I found that members galore demanded forgiveness for every human shortcoming but ministers had better never. . It was and is an unrealistic position to be put in or to put oneself in by choice. Frankly, I was not righteous enough to be a minster of the spotless kind. I grew up such the "good boy" and then was the good AC college boy. Only after getting into the real world of people and out of the cocoon of my youth and AC did I understand the struggles of mind and heart everyone and I mean everyone goes through in living out their lives. I was rather quick to "forgive" in the church setting because I could easily say to the member, "oh yeah...I get that!" Long story. Crazy long story.....
PS While not a fan of Paul's role in the early NT Church or trusting his mental stability, I did find this genuine statement, far as we know, by Paul as about as real as it gets.
Romans 7:15-20 New International Version (NIV)
15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."
He likened it "sin living in me". To me it is just being a human being without all the need to drum up something like an evil host parasite infesting humans. It's just people. And coming to see it in oneself and admitting it so at times is a freedom most can only wish for when they endeavor to cover it, deny it and act like it is a problem way of being for everyone but them. You know, like Flurry, Pack, Thiel and all the other self appointed types who simply must be viewed by their followers as more special, more strong, more moral and more sinless than the unwashed. We can all recall RCM crowing about "never having committed a major sin in my life". Well there ya go...that was a major one right there! :)
TLA said: “HWA had a 1% accuracy rate.”
So what prediction did he get right?
Anonymous July 23, 2019 at 10:27 AM said...
"The best thing that could happen to [Bob]...would be to die in his sleep from some sudden-acting malady."
Tbh that's exactly how I'd like to die...as quick and painless as possible and preferably in my sleep.
DD said: "To me it is just being a human being without all the need to drum up something like an evil host parasite infesting humans."
The Goa'uld race has just as much right to survive as anyone else!
Kevin
Russia losing control of Eastern Europe and letting Germany recombine.
The Soviet Union collapse was only anticipated by a very few who really analyzed the facts available and calculated they were much weaker than people thought.
Prophesy enough different things and you may get one or two things right.
“How the improperly named 'continuing' Church of God began”
It began with Bob Thiel beginning to think of himself “in terms that are not realistic.”
It began with Bob Thiel telling fibs.
I guess there are no Stargate SG1 fans on here.
Kevin
"HWA had a 1% accuracy rate"
To put this in perspective, go to the Painful Truth and read He Was Right!
Hoss: Looks like my guess was right - 1 % accurate and 99% wrong
Re the 1% accuracy rate of HWA’s predictions I’d surmise it’s actually LESS THAN 1% and more likely a decimal fraction.
For instance, if we say he got the following specific predictions right:
1) USSR wouldn’t invade USA ✔️
2) East & West Germany would unite✔️
Then that’s a success rate of 2 out of AT LEAST 300 predictions=0.67%
Even if we give him another (if it occurs):
3) UK will leave the EU✔️
However, we must note HWA more specifically predicted the UK wouldn’t form a part of the “USE” or Beast kingdom so Idk whether we should even include this as an accurate prediction. But, even if we do add that into the equation it’d be 3/300. That would boost his accuracy rate to a measly 1%. And that’s assuming the tally is correct ie 300. If it was over 300 it would still be a decimal fraction eg 0.99% If it’s less then his accuracy rate would be a whole number 3/200=eg 1.5%
BTW Has anyone ever tallied all of HWA’s predictions since he started his PT magazine so we know exactly how many he made? Was it actually 300 or less or more?
allied all of HWA’s predictions
It's a hard call to determine the number of individual predictions he made, compared to his overall erroneous framework. In the early PTs, he had "prophetic timelines" that had a number of false dated claims, along with remarks like, Rommel will be victorious and go for Jerusalem.
Elsewhere I remarked about problems with the various editions of Mark Armstrong's book on HWA's "prophetic accuracy". One thing I thought was a real hoot was he chose an article in a PT regarding the USSR/USA "prophecy" applied to the Cuban missile crisis. While using that as a mark for HWA's "accuracy", another article in the same PT - written by Dr Hoeh - claimed that China would (very soon) invade India.
7:53
My point to the annoyance of many is that if you change the timing and leave out religion hwa is so far 65 percent accurate and perhaps a 100 percent when "the times of the gentiles" ascends.
My point is that he was the mouthpiece for those who really pull the strings.
For starters I would direct you to the Rockefellar papers as a hint about the "world tomorrow".
HWA is 100 percent accurate, except for the "religion thing" that seemed to have hooked regular contributors to the MESSAGE about the coming global control state enforcing peace on mankind.
Nck
Hoss
If you were a policy maker for the government prior to WWII set with the task to convince the weary demmocratic American people in the heartland to sacrifice their sons in order to join the Allied Effort to defeat an enemy destroying western culture and markets.
Would you then support a radio station with the HWA message that german victory was near or would you support NPO with a message, this is the government speaking we are going to join another European civil war and send your kids?????? How would you spend some of those allocated tax dollars.
And during the Cold War when the BACKBONE of American POWER exists of M utual A ssured D estruction?? Would you have your career diplomats explain that concept or would you have "your people" support a very talented networker bringing together all elites at dinners, to SCREAM at those European elites that the END would come by nuclear holocaust UNLESS a strong hand from someplace would intervene?????
What would send the message that the USA WOULD fire the rockets IF fired upon!!!!!!!!!!!!!??
Please watch "Charlie Wilson" war on Netflix again.
nck
HWA is 100 percent accurate (except when he's wrong)
Nck, HWA would said the Germans would win, and the USSR would never be at war with the USA.
We and the allies continued to fight, and won. The USA continued its Cold War military buildup, and the USSR collapsed. I'm not sure about the point you are trying to make.
One reason Hitler failed was because his military strategy was based on ideology.
For those wearing their magic HWA glasses, he will always have been right, regardless of the facts.
I must have said this about 15 million times: If HWA was right, then Jesus has returned, and we’re in the Kingdom right now.
A thought for the day: Why is it that Bible literalists and inerrantists are not HWA literalists and inerrantists? Why switch methodologies to give an old dead man a pass?
BB
nck re Rockefellar papers as a hint about the "world tomorrow"
Forgive me if I sound obtuse, but do you have perchance a link to what specifically you're referring to in such papers?
I did a quick google search, but didn't come up with any success as to what your esoteric statement might allude to.
Hello 10:14
I believe a training into Foreign Policy might help, but I suppose a training in "Armstrongism" will suffice to see what I mean.
The link between HWA, US Foreign Policy, The United Nations (as an instrument of cold war us foreign policy) is obvious for any kindergarten trained person who can read.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockefeller_Brothers_Fund#Special_Studies_Project
The project was published in its entirety in 1961 as "Prospect for America"
HWA sat at the main table at the UN anniversary dinner.
The Rockefellars donated the UN grounds.
In the UN HQ at NY I observed a nice painting of a World in Construction. (like a skyscraper construction map)
In the AC gardens still a sculpture stands with the USSR gift to the UN. Canons into plowshares.
But these are only outward signs of someone who CLEARLY and OBVIOUSLY was an announcer to the New World Order.
nck
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