All of those rebellious boys of Church of God a Worldwide Ass. thought they were hot stuff when they decided to apostatize from United Church of God. For a while, they did pretty well considering they took a huge chunk of UCG's members and ministers with them along with a huge amount of income. United Church of God has never recovered from the royal humiliation they received.
Now, it looks like COGWA is starting to have its own issues. Its ministry and membership are aging and they have been incapable of drawing in new younger members that are money machines. More money goes to pay for the privileged lifestyle of the ministry than it does to their "gospel" proclamation to the world. 43% of COWA's tithe money goes to pay the ministry.
Too lazy to branch out and make contact with world leaders and other movers and shakers, they resort to the internet to get their message out. Even that is not working for them as they have one of the most boring web sites out there, except maybe for Bob Thiel's. Their concern for getting a message out is not too important, as they have an outside source that serves as its media department.
Britton Taylor, reporting on COGWA’s audit for the year ended December 31, 2018, wrote: “… income received for 2018 was just under $12.7 million – the highest in our history. This was a 6% increase over 2017, which was a strong year with income close to $12 million. Total expenses for 2018 and 2017 were about $11.8 million and $11.3 million respectively.”
So how is the money being spent?
Salaries and related expenses represented 43.8% of income. The ministry is elderly, so the rate of this expense will increase, in order to fund ministerial retirement pay and sickness benefits, and the recruitment of replacement ministers.
Public proclamation of the gospel, the focus of most ministries, amounted to $1,216,976 – which is 10.3% of annual income. This low percentage is due to its public proclamation being currently restricted to its website, Life, Hope & Truth – which is not as effective as the leadership had hoped.
Visitor numbers declined through 2018, so in January 2019 the media department (which is outsourced) was given the task of improving website visitor numbers and page views by refining its search engine optimization tactics, redesigning the website, adding and changing content, and other techniques to enhance its attraction.Jim Franks goes on to complain that COGWA's message is not "attractive" to people in this day and age.
Jim Franks, writing in his September 2019 member letter, now recognizes that the content also needs to be attractive:
“… we are working hard at upgrading our Internet presence. For the past 18 months, our unique visitors to Life, Hope & Truth has leveled off at just under 500,000 per month. This is about half the number we were getting at our high point. We are investing resources to develop a strategy to increase our numbers. There are some technical things that we can do with the Internet, but we also realize the need for more compelling articles that get people’s attention and that proclaim the true gospel to a world that is spiritually starving.” Church of God News
Seriously? When has the Church of God EVER proclaimed a "true gospel"? It denies and mocks the one they claim to follow and places all of its emphasis on keeping the law and a pathetically disproven belief in British Israelism. Jettison that belief and COGWA and the rest of Armstrongism falls apart.
COGWA is never going to amount to anything spectacular, None of the COG's are today, either. They are just mere shadows of the grand scheme they all try and imitate and fail miserably in doing so.
82 comments:
“that proclaim the true gospel to a world that is spiritually starving.” (Jim Franks).
First, since when has an Armstrong cult ever preached more than half a gospel??? HWA always used to state that somehow the gospel got changed, and became a gospel about the person of Jesus Christ. We should never have allowed him to redefine the gospel for us in that manner. If you read the words of the New Testament, it
becomes clear that Jesus Himself makes it about Himself and His role; His purpose for being born and living on planet Earth. And what it means for humanity.
Second, it’s the epitome of arrogance to state that the world is spiritually starving, especially for your own message. When you are starving, it is easy to notice that about yourself and to admit it. In our times, humanity has simply found other things which provide nourishment. They are no longer susceptible to force feeding with the heavy-handed assistance of fear. You must provide an interesting and captivating message, a message that imparts something that is not only unique, but also yields tangible benefits to the lives of followers. Most people are simply no longer content to heed a calling to asceticism and weirdness. They demand enlightenment as enlightenment is commonly understood, with full benefits, not a banal Zombifying substitute with 100% of the reward deferred for another time. Mankind no longer exists in the shadow of the Zeitgeist of HWA’s era. (hat tip to nck). The ol’ time and date stamp have expired on HWA’s classic routine.
BB
Remembering a recent post here, maybe COGWA should take on Robert Thiel in his specialty - cartoon messages.
Go for ANIMATION DOMINATION! :-)
BB
I believe Malcolm Gladwell in "Outliers" says that current zeitgeist business models require an emphasis of service and solution over product and process of earlier days.
Nck
Wow, nck. I guess I'm right in tune with the latest business Zeitgeist then, because I've been emphasizing service and solutions for years. Why can't the ACOGs do that? Is it because they are hung up on my way or the highway, and the entitled authoritarians keep imposing things on members rather than serving them?
BB
Cogwa is spending 43% on the ministry because sadly Cogwa is a church FOR the ministry. With a few rich members sprinkled throughout. Do you understand what i mean? There is no other church group like that.
Unless the ACOG reinvents itself into serving people into universal leadership there is no place under the sun for the ACOG niche. The spectacular hijacking into CGI and subsequent demise of ACOGism might for some pose the ultimate solution. History has shown that within christianities rich pallet there is a place (and perhaps time) for acog type of niches with emphasis on social activism and sense of urgency. Old, weary, stalling, authoritarianism is the trap of time.
Yesterday on the PCG corporate site I read an article by an elderly lady having survived 4 separate pilgrimages from war torn Berlin into Australia. Pilgrims and pilgrimage and the vision that ensued is what identified the ACOG and its philosophy (hence the no church buildings and temporary feast dwellings, travelling salesmen). When the movement stalls it ceases to be a movement, it ceases to be an ACOG.
nck
PS: I by no means want to direct people to the PCG site, I'd rather discourage it. It is just an example that at few occassions ACOG's still produce gems of practical experience and philosophy that do and will not come into fruition in the otherwise dry desert of stalling philosophy and mind blowing repetition of failed direction into leadership.
COGWA has found it's place in the COG world. It pretty much solely exists to take care of aging "ministers" who have a few congregations of about 25-30 people each.
Attended a short while with them and found that wasn't where we wanted to be. Once you leave them the members have little or nothing to do with you. What else is new?
It's always the finest of everything for the leader. Having been a part of the consumption spending and quite profligate for years. Money was no object if it would boost self esteem.
What's the big deal? Most of the other ACOGs are within a few percentage points of COGWA's number. Even LCG now spends only around a third of its income on preaching the gospel, where it used to be well above 50 percent.
I believe Malcolm Gladwell in "Outliers" says that current zeitgeist business models require an emphasis of service and solution over product and process of earlier days.
The ACOGs follow that model. Their pitch: "You're gonna get hell on earth if you are around for the Tribulation. Choose instead to experience hell as a member of our group, and you'll get to be God after you die. If you're lucky, you can even be a mini-God in our group and make life hell for other people."
43% in salaries perhaps. Then expense accounts. Then additional costs paid to the ministry for working on the board or on different groups for the youth, for the feast, for the magazine, for the website, etc. Don’t let the 43% fool you. There aren’t many non-minister employees. The ministry receives many of the other costs too.
Cogwa did well for themselves when they broke from UCG. They are with people that agree with them, the US churches consist of ministers kids, AC grads and relatives thereof. Without the social aspect that requires years to achieve and synthesized from the much larger WCG, it is unlikely Cogwa would exist. The same formula will not work for their teen children though.
The devil is in the accounting details. 43% appears way too low. They've probably hijacked most of the third tithe for the ministers retirement needs. Most ministers have probablyput nothing to one side for retirement. I recall reading an article by Bob Thiel to this affect. He claimed that HWA had forbidden them to save for retirement. How can anyone dictate what one does with ones salary? After all, it's no ones business. Bobs claim and excuse is so childish.
now ur doin journalism...
todays cogs have not substantially distinguished themselves from the run of the mill preacher hype...its disgusting, and there will be hell to pay...
you cannot serve God and mammon...
c f ben yochanan
please stop censoring me...
the only thing cogwads stand for is their paycheck. most meaningless, do nothing group ever. slimy.
cogwa is the epitome of the cogs masquerading as sheep in wolves clothing. While the hypocrisy and self-righteousness of many cog leaders are blatantly apparent, cogwa lies low in a sinister way. Judgmental and condemning attitudes from the self-righteous hirelings are as rampant in cogwa as in other cogs, but just more carefully concealed. cogwa is a splinter founded on lies and slander more than anything biblical, harshly ruled by the cronyism, and for the financial support of, the good ole boy's country clubbers. It is a whited sepulcher to beware of.
Spiritual inbreeding and indoctrination from the AC and WCG years have seemingly produced a limited genetic pool in the cogs, no matter what their differences, as each claims either directly or by inference to be the only true cog.
The elitist cogwads only care about their income and retirements, and by flying below the radar escape detection when in reality they are one of the most abusive, heartless and non-caring cogs on the manipulative market.
Demographics at work department...
At the ages of nearly all the COGs membership, calculate about a 4% annual decline due to death. (source: Social Security actuarial tables)
Figure about double that for people who just give up and quit church.
So a decline of about 8% a year in attendance. With compounding, that is a decline of HALF in just 9 years.
However, this does not take into account a growing retirement of the membership, and their inablility to contribute to the cause as they once did. Figure this as an additional 4% a year income drag. Thus, income will likely be about half in just 6 years.
This is also assuming that the ministry will just stay still in place, without leaving to form their own thing, as the inevitable "layoffs" will occur to them. No, this financial reality will create even more splits, as ministers to be laid off , will simply rebel against such , and form there own little cadre groups for self support.
Thus, an implosion for all of the groups is likely, and likely within the next 5 years. COGWA and UCG will likely fare better than a group like Flurry and Pack , as they are a bit more decentralized without just one iconic leader, but only slightly better.
It will all be interesting to watch. AC trained ministers are and have been the most destructive force to the COG and are their own worst enemies to themselves. The "Peter Principle" has been at work here, and the church is full of people who have "risen to their level of incomptence".
It's very karmic when you consider back when UCG poached thousands of Tkach's CashZombies, then this COGWA does the same to them!
My wife and I were in a restaurant awhile back. There was a group of about 6 people sitting at a table near us. Couple of teenage boys dressed in suits, white shirts and ties, girls with dresses down to their knees. The men had on suites and ties, women had on dresses and little or no makeup and plain hairdos. Obviously church people. I don’t know what church but you could spot them a mile away.
I am not criticizing their dress, I am making a point and it applies to Cogwa. I looked at their website last night. Briefly scanned their sermons delivered by the top ministers. The formula never changes. Old and I mean old ministers in suit and tie standing behind approved lectern, stack of sermon notes and bible. Boring sermon subjects Iike will you endure to the end. Good grief! An hour and a half of an old man wheezing on and on. But first you have to endure three songs then probably a sermonette. Oh and maybe “special music”.
This is Herbert’s model from the 50’s and you better not change it!
Will Cogwa grow and bring in new people? Look at the formula.
Jim-AZ
In the years I have spent as a Christian believer I have served in many leadership roles including minister, but never excepted a paid position. This doesn't mean that I am apposed to ministers being paid when this is their full time occupation. In fact I would support some in that category by doing things that would ease their burden when it would over burden them even in churches that I never attended.
Now having started with my personal experiences I want point to a few things that we should always consider. First we need to recognize what a full time minister will be or should be doing beside preaching the good news God wants preached in a church. A local church minister is responsible for the spiritual health of its members and in some ways they can be responsible for the mental health of the members. They are also responsible for build a church community life that will draw others in from their community.
Now does this mean that a church is to build a community life the is patterned by the local community life where it is located? I personally think this not what God desires. There are somethings that a church may do that would be plant the seeds of the Truth God's word, but many of things would be bringing the world into a church. Trying convert the world by building little local worlds will never produce what only God can do.
I am not in anyway shape or form that would have the capability to starting a local church congregation, but I believe those who are would be more successful if they focused on building the spiritual life rather than providing entertainment and worldly fellowship. ASB
Anonymous Jim-AZ at 8:24 AM said...“The formula never changes. Old and I mean old ministers in suit and tie standing behind approved lectern, stack of sermon notes and bible.”
If you watch some of COGWA's speakers, or look at a recent copy of COGWA's Discern magazine, you might notice that they are experimenting with wearing non-white shirts, going without neckties, and not doing up their top shirt button. HWA would not be happy about this change. The real Laodiceans in COG-land like to wear black shirts. Some very, very, very minor false prophets (CCG) like black shirts too.
After the 2010 split, COGWA kept the UCG's pagan-based custom of having a Winter Family X-mass Weekend celebration. HWA would not be happy about this change either. HWA was not into that Saturnalia/X-mass/Winter Weekend stuff. Trying to make it sound good by calling it a “Family Weekend” is similar to wicked women saying that they observe Halloween “for the children.”
ALL the teachings in the WCG had come through HWA. That is why near the end of HWA's life he began to teach that he was the Elijah who was prophesied to “restore ALL things.” By the time of HWA's death in January 1986, everything had supposedly been restored.
Modern attempts in COG-land to restore additional things seem to result in dressing sloppy, going back to observing Saturnalia/X-mass under the new Family Weekend name (UCG and COGWA), coming up with so-called “doctrinal upgrades” that go halfway back to the world's gospel about (rather than of) Jesus (LCG), and even restoring a “common” theft scam (RCG).
"An hour and a half of an old man wheezing on and on"
Or in Dave Johnson's case, spitting on and on!
There goes my black shirt and white tie. Not!!!!
GTA spoiled it all for the ACOG broadcasters who came after him in that he had fashion sensibility, projected a charismatic and masculine image that appealed to both male and female members of his audience, and provided a very imitatable example of what people who might join his church would become like. Now, we know in retrospect that he lead a dual lifestyle, but the image on TV did not belie his dark side.
Most of the ACOG cookie cutter broadcasts are presented by people who get viewers thinking “Oh crap! Is this what I’m going to become if I join this church???” The pictures of women in the church publications with no makeup and 1940s clothing styles cause further revulsion.
Authoritarianism is not service, and making yourself into a pariah by mannerisms and dress are not solutions. The efforts of those who embrace weirdness to have a positive influence on their surrounding cultures limits becomes severely limited.
BB
COGWA is a fraud, it does not proclaim anything except how inept they are in proclaiming the gospel. They are good at squandering money that that is sent to these money-grubbers. 43% on salaries for any normal business they would be putting a going out of business sign on the front door. They accomplish nothing but keep the fat old dredges employed who most have never held a real job. Britny Taylor in charge of finances is like the fox guarding the henhouse. The IRS should take a look at some of his financial dealings when he was the minister in Roanoke VA. Their leader Jim Franks is another that could stand some scrutiny. They give monies away in Africa like candy but are hard-pressed to give struggling members here who are not a rump swab of the minister to go to the feast because when they don't meet their criteria. They brag about flying to some island off the coast of Africa to just talk with a prospective member. I think a phone call would have accomplished the same a little cheaper. I thought they were supposed to be good stewards, they don't preach the gospel and they keep themselves well-fed. I think Isaiah 56:10 to the end sums up COGWA .
I asked my minister in the late 1970s why church literature showed people wearing 1956 clothes. He replied that it's because the church never got around to updating its photos. But on observing that most members were wearing "old peoples cloths," I came to the conclusion that the church had been hijacked by the elderly in the church. Old peoples clothes was home sweet home to them.
My bible says to not add or subtract from Gods word. No where does the bible dictate fashion. I can't help noticing that HWA and his wife did not practise what he preached. In their photographs, they looked like everyone else in their time period.
BB 12:08
The modern equivalent of a GTA broadcaster would be Generation Y Instagram influencers.
Oh if we could only get the Kardashians to rejoin the original faith (of Armenia). Or perhaps Reality TV where we could follow the lives of a particular family for a couple of years.
Authoritarianism seems to get into fashion more and another Kim is also embraced. HWA did rail against "us" not being weird "by wearing particular dress or wearing strange bonnets", "but being" different because of a renewed mind a changed mind". I'm very much in favor of "natural looks enhanced". Unfortunately looking at 1970 pictures HWA was right in judging make up styles. HORRIBLE. Of course after the 1960 smoky eyes fad make up was allowed, I like it too. Today perhaps the decision would not be reversed. Much more modest, tasteful and conservative today than the seventies.
In Europe ties are out for white collars except for civil servants.
In another 100 years perhaps the opening prayer will be by a lady in a Star Trek cat suit....... "please bow your heads...... You too Nck...."
Nck
Nck
I wouldn't call Star Fleet uniforms cat suits. Rather people in that time period are not obese. Captain Pike from Discovery looks cool in his uniform.
Post says: COGWA is never going to amount to anything spectacular
Is it God's purpose to make His people spectacular? I thought God's purpose was and is to draw people to join Jesus the Christ in the kingdom of God. This of course means there is an internal transformation from the way of the world to the way of God. ASB
It’s another way of turning Armstrongism on Armstrongites to shake them up and make them realize a greater truth, ASB. That’s what we do here. Part of our past programming was indoctrination that the Armstrongite church was going to burst into prominence, capture the world’s attention, get out an end time message warning the world, and then be persecuted, possibly even martyrred out of existence.
No danger of that with the COGaWA, or any of the other splinters. They have managed to build a totally invisible presence for themselves.
BB
Is COGWA off track? Yes. Are they doing the work of Satan? I don't think so. If they turned around and pulled a Grace Communion they would deridwd for not having faith in their beliefs.
Why aren't the accusations specific? Because they are weak accusations so generalize them and let the audience imagine the worst.
Pack, Theil, Flurry and the other crazy lunatics are low hanging fruit and are easy to pick on. Even LCG and UCG, but COGWA? They are starting to do a little better. And it seems this causes conaternation among the cog hating masses. We want horrible disasters and train wreck sermons. With COGWA everything is kinda boring. There isn't even a focus on the two trees or the place of safety with them. And HWA is referenced less and less every year.
The solution? Find anything that may seem even possibly bad they are doing and trump it up as the worst thing possible.
It seems COGWA isn't rotten to the core yet. The mob may have to wait a while longer.
6:24 “They brag about flying to some island off the coast of Africa to just talk with a prospective member.”
Reminds me of Matthew 23:15 (KJV): “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.”
So 11:43pm your being a minister in cogwa and all, of course you don't see the rottenness, that's because you are part and parcel with what's wrong in cogwa. What is wrong is that cogwa is financing HWA's evil clergy system. Duping the "members" into thinking that they are to pay an unbiblical tithe to support an unbiblical entity (the ministry). If tithing was a law prior to the Mt. Sinai covenant then why did God allow Jacob to bargain with him concerning a law? "Bless me and I'll pay tithes" what if he said "Bless me and I won't go out and mess around with all the females in the land"? Would God say "Oh my, I don't want you to commit adultery so I had better bless you."? That simple fact right there proves that tithing was not a law at the time of Jacob's request. So yes, it's rotten to the core how an unbiblical clergy class demands an unbiblical tithe for their support!
Kevin
It doesn't matter how many times Armstrongism is attempted, or by whom. The doctrinal and managerial approach always corrupts the leaders and enslaves the members, much the same as another well-known system, communism. The "livingroom" approach in the privacy of your own home minimizes these effects, but the moment two alpha-males are involved in your living room, someone attempts to take charge. Fear and coercion are the only tactics which make Armstrongism appear to be a vaguely functional religious philosophy. Once HWA passed away, his explosive temper was no longer present to maintain unity and control.
BB
11:43,
What kind of "specific actions" are you looking for? Do you mean those that recount specific actions and beliefs of individual ministers themselves? Kevin mentions tithing. That is a specific wrong. And, I believe no small number of the COGwa ministry believe it is unsupported, but they might think, "giving is good." Still, it is a lie and also selfish as the giving is directed towards them.
COGwa is boring as you say, this is the result of giving sermons that are measured so as not to overtly let the full cat out of the bag. They seldom teach what they call "the Truth"; instead they merely state that you must discern and not fall from the Truth. They know that most of their beliefs outside of mainstream Christianity are not well supported, and contrary to your stating "they do not teach HWA", they actually rely heavily on HWA and mention him as an authority so that the audience need only recall the beliefs they grew up with without actually hearing the poorly supported argument for those beliefs given in a sermon. One need only be told, "Don't fall away from the Truth." That is all that is necessary to hang on to the members as the social network the COGwa adults have is pleasant as they are 5000 US members drawn from 150,000 in the WCG. They generally have similar backgrounds (Ambassador College often minister families) and compatible personalities that have an above average income. They are comfortable and satisfied and happy with after sermon activities and feast vacations together.
But, because COGwa also teaches they and maybe a few others are the only real Christians, they are setting their kids up for a fall. The young people in their teens and early 20s are drawing on a much smaller group to form their comfortable and satisfied tribe (drawn from 5000 US members as opposed to 150,000 in WCG and often with the college experience of AC). The COGs try to have activities/sports and camps and winter family weekends in an effort to draw these kids into a social group that will not ask forbidden questions for fear of not being in the group they are being largely forced into. But, these kids and young adults are not as uniform as the AC student families that make up most of COGwa and they will grow apart in their twenties as their lives and personalities are seen to not be particularly compatible for forming the social network required to be lulled into compliance to obviously incorrect doctrines.
There is a solution of course, but it is seemingly one the COGs don't like. The solution is to teach our unity under Christ and not an organization. This would help splits (and yes, more are coming) be less hostile. Someone mentioned that you can't disagree with a minister, true...when no split is occurring. But, just as soon as the winds of a split begin among the ministry, well, suddenly the ministry on the other side are filled with nefarious individuals and the members are encouraged to recognize this and give their account of how ridiculous this and that minister is.
If unity is under Christ, church groups can split for legitimate reasons. Perhaps one group believes their talents could be used better under a different system/approach; this can even be communicated and seen as something under the direction of God's Spirit. They can separate as brethren recognizing that this can be used for God's glory if they step out in faith. Ah, faith, yes, if they step out in faith...
The COGs are not much into that as being "right" is more important. God is right, the COGs aren't. What He wants is faith.
I could make a list of COG wrongs, but it is Faith, simply in the shed blood of Christ, that they most need.
The original post of 17 September 2019, concludes with saying:
"...COGWA is never going to amount to anything spectacular, None of the COG's are today, either. They are just mere shadows of the grand scheme they all try and imitate and fail miserably in doing so..."
COGWA, just one of mere shadows? And, to think that COGWA was not in existence when the following sermon words on God's Government were expressed about 20 years ago:
******
"...When I talk about the ministry: I’m talking about that paid ministry. Unfortunately, most of these people just came out there: they were seventeen, eighteen, nineteen years old. They came to Ambassador College. They really never worked a day in their life. They came to College. They got on the gravy train and they went out there. They actually thought. Now, in some of these earlier years, the men did have to work a little harder, but once we got into the seventies, eighties and nineties: it was a joke! These guys were paid. These guys were getting paychecks and they were doing nothing! They were doing nothing.
They thought they were working hard, but they had no idea what all of you, the brethren, had to do: that you had to get up at 5:30 in the morning...battle the traffic...work under bosses that were from hell...had bills to pay. You’d get laid off and all kinds of things would happen and they had no idea how that is!
Well, now, more and more of them are finding out how it is, because more and more of their little organizations, which are not God’s organizations! These so-called “churches of God” are not God’s Church. They’re just groups led by men. Now, they may be sincere, but they’re sincerely wrong, as well.
God is not directing them...As I said before, I think there were many more local elders that were converted, but if they were just apple-polishers out there, then they went right along with what was RULING OVER them, as well. So, there were a lot of those men who tried to RULE God’s people too...Just watch the time! This is in January of 1999.
We affected a lot of people in 1998, and we just really got started and went public. So, we’ll see what happens in 1999.
I predicted in 1996, and in 1997, in sermons that all of these other groups were going to break up, break up, break up and that’s what they’re doing. They’re not getting larger, brethren. They keep breaking up and then they’re smaller. Then they break up and they’re smaller. Then they have little fits over here and then they’re smaller..."
******
And in 1999 the United Ass. was no more of a shadow than the COGW Ass. was.
The xcogs are striving to do a dead man's work. God moved on! And what are the xcogs accomplishing today? Nothing!
What were the leaders doing back then? Again, from that same sermon:
******
"...All of these little hirelings out there are vying for position so they have a paycheck!...It’s very plain and there’s an attitude there. When you see this attitude, and we saw it in the ministry; didn’t we? We saw it in that so-called government: that counterfeit government. They didn’t go after: they didn’t feed them [[God's sheep]]. They didn’t work with them. They organized it only so that they got their paycheck, and brought their own SELF-righteousness and vanity with it..."
******
Is it possible that we were observing Satan's government at work masquerading as God's government, where the paid ministry, like angels of light, could not expose one another b/c they would have had to expose themSELVES? Perhaps as imitators, hypocrites, among other things? Time will tell...
John
When you mention personality, Earl, it reminds me of something I discovered during my first few weeks at Embarrassing College. There was such a thing as the universal Ambassador personality. Many of the students who were very successful at AC, and who went into the ministry and other leadership positions had subverted their own personalities and had adapted the UAP instead.
You could literally watch this take over if you didn’t happen to adapt it yourself, but those who did take it on were doing it in sync with one another, so it was imperceivable to them. I suspect from what you say, that COGWA is one of the last bastions of the UAP, making the older folk more comfortable, and the youngsters out to establish or retain their own personalities.
BB
If I may ask John who gave that sermon? Is it online as an audio or transcript? Thanks.
Hi Byker,
I know of the type you are referring to. I can't say that is exactly what I see with Cogwa, but more that this AC Cogwa crowd is composed of people who have been distilled down into a largely homogenous group that think a lot alike. Often they are ministers kids and have AC in their background. So, they think it is working as a system better than it is. It is simply a group that is generally middle to upper middle class and share a lot of similar experiences and beliefs. It doesn't sound bad socially, but they (30s thru early 60s and the ministry) are established in their social group and believe their system works, but forget that literally over 95% that touched Armstrongism saw that it didn't work either spiritually or through bad experiences.
They keep doing the same things within their exclusivist teachings, but eventually their teen and 20-something kids will ask questions because the social network will get much more sparse and less homogenous and distilled. The COgwa system requires the social aspect to thrive and it simply does not have the numbers to do that for the current young people which are more diverse of mind and experiences and will not mesh as well, thus the system will not work so well for them. I believe they are setting their children up for disappointment.
All the churches are wrong.... But so is everyone here.
If you think you are the only one with the truth you are nuttier than any cult leader.
So lets skip the doctrine bashing because everyone's stinks. Lets talk about the people.... In wait most everyone here doesn't meet with anyone from a congregation ... So you have no worthy opinion about people today. Your opinions expiration date ended when stopped attending.
Well I still meet with some COGWA people. I meet with people who've been kicked out of COGWA. I meet with people that left UCG and some that left PCG.
If you say these people are all awful I can personal call you a liar. Because I know them well.
Your personal doctrine stinks as bad as COGWA's does and doesn't hold water. You don't know the people I meet with or their righteousness.
So, lets be specific because gross generalities are the weapons of fools. COGWA teaches the very similar ideas from HWA and most of them are crap. But the Phqrisses did the same thing and Jesus didnt attack everyone he was very specific who he accused.
So if you want to attack everyone then that just shows how ignorant of who jesus was and what he taught.
Kevin
Jacobs "bless me and I'II tithe" bargaining with God worked. The All Wise God 'came down' to Jacobs level to establish a relationship with him. Parents do this all the time with their kids. You appear to be reading much more into this.
2:42am Rationalize all that you want, I don't care, but if you want to talk about "reading much" into the context, how about using Abraham's giving a tenth of the spoils of war to prove that tithing is a universal law? Now that's reading much into the text. Again, the use of Jacob's deal with God to "prove" tithing is just as much "reading much more into" the text as my use of it to "disprove" tithing. You're free to choose for yourself which "proof texting" that you agree with, but to guilt others into thinking one way is of God and not the other is rotten to the core!
Tell me, exactly how much tithe did the priesthood pay? I'm not talking about how they divvied up the tithe, with the sons of Aaaron receiving a full 10% of the tithe themselves, I want to know how much the priests paid from their own "increase"? The answer is none, the priesthood did not pay tithes they received tithes. Now can you tell me what the bible calls us? A royal priesthood. You're a lying thief if you teach the royal priesthood has to pay a tithe to you or an unbiblical "clergy class"!
Kevin
Anon 10:59,
I wish you would be more specific. I think it is better to bash doctrines than people. I would agree that the people I know in COGwa are generally pretty pleasant and well meaning people. I can say that about Mormons too. My opinion on the people has not expired as I probably know more of them than you do and meet with COGwa or UCG at least monthly. I don't see a lot of people bashing, but I do bash a false system based on HWA. You even admit that their HWA beliefs are basically crap. Isn't it right then to bash those beliefs and the system that perpetuates it?
My comments about the people of Cogwa are simply based on their mindset within a cultish organization, not bashing them. I do know that they cannot veer from the HWA teachings and the beliefs that other Christians are false Christians without the Holy Spirit. Should that belief be bashed? I think so. Good people can have destructive ideas and their system won't translate well for the youth in COGwa. I'd like more specifics on what you believe should not be bashed and instances where this bashing occurs.
For anyone interested 2:42am's comment that Jacob's bargaining with God "worked" is a perfect example of a strawman argument because that wasn't even close to the point of what I was saying.
In fact "it working" proves my point that it couldn't have been a law. If it were a law God would have expected Jacob to obey whether blessed or not.
2:42am in his/her strawman argument brings up parenting, ok, what if a kid told his parent, after being told to take a bath, give me five dollars and then I'll take a bath? Would "it work"?
Kevin
10:59pm Generalize much? You don't know "everyone here" any more than we know everyone in cogwa, ucg, etc. etc.
btw I still fellowship with them too, and many, if not most are still as brainwashed as ever. Sad.
Kevin
Earl,
The issue I take is not with people here its their words. A very black and white distinction. The words stated against brainwashed people are a snapshot in time and they are a permanent condemnation. There is no hope expressed for anyone in COGWA on this site besides dissenters.
I have hope still for the leaders even because I have changed and I believe others can change. When you live a life of change you hope it for othee people too.
Therefore I see clearly that the crowds that condemn COGWA members , even if they are brainwashed today, demonstrate they have no hope in themselves. This is not from the spirit in Jesus.
If I felt like this board was people that will never change I would not comment here I would leave and never return.
Read the bible and describe a church the apostle Paul started himself. They were terrible and some fell apart and some rejected him and at the end Paul was abandoned by everyone.
So why should now be any different? Yet Paul still worked hard to help these people.
No one here has to care about anyone else trying to obey Jesus but your a liar if you say you obey Jesus but do not have hope for your fellow brothers. Everyone sins we all need help seeing that. We don't need useless accusations we need useful rebukes and education and a bold and powerful message of hope and redemption.
No one is lost, not even those in COGWA.
Anon, September 20, 2019 at 5:22 PM, asked: "...If I may ask John who gave that sermon? Is it online as an audio or transcript? Thanks..."
That sermon was given by a Robert Roenspies and is not available online at this time, but may eventually become available.
Time will tell...
John
I’ve been in LCG, UCG and COGWA. They are all the same. I don’t care what anybody else says. They all try to make the brethren think their church is not like the others and sadly most of them fall for it. Division and fear are the name of the game. None of them are inspired. Nothing has changed. The formula is just as beat down, repetitive, tired and boring as it has been for decades. Everyone is old. I can’t wait until the ACOGs are simply extinguished which is exactly what’s going to happen with the end of the next generation. People are smarter now. Information is readily available for anyone who wants to look for truths about DNA, migration, traditions of men (news flash ACOGs don’t keep the FOT as biblically instructed, rather they follow tradition as set forth by HWA and a host of other things) , incest, plagiarism, lawsuits and who/ when Jewish law was actually meant to apply to. It’s all a farce. So many people have gone so far down the ACOG path that even through they know it’s not “the truth” they don’t have the courage to turn around. I left for good 18 months ago and I have never been happier. My spouse remains in the cult. I went a few Sabbaths ago just to say hi to a few people and it was exactly the same, uninspiring, boring message with the same scriptures. I honestly don’t know how people sit there week after week!
Anon 11:35,
I don't really see this condemnation of COGwa members that you allude to. I don't feel that way. I think because the COGs have been in the business of saying who is a real Christian and who is a fake Christian that many respond to this by questioning whether the accusers within the COGs are themselves false. Of course there is plenty of hope for those in COGwa but it seems they identify with the law all too often more so than they do Christ and it generally it seems they have a ways to go in truly giving themselves to following Christ. At least for those who are after Christ's Resurrection, it is faith in Christ's sacrifice that saves. Without that you aren't saved. Most in the COGs seem sincere and want to please God so they will be rewarded for that.
11:35pm, You are generalizing again. Something you condemned in your first post, "So, lets be specific because gross generalities are the weapons of fools." yet you continue to do it.
I know of no one here who has said that those in cogwa are lost, it's you with your generalizations who is putting words in peoples mouths.
You really need to abide by your own words because you condemn yourself in every post.
Kevin
Don’t have a dog in this fight, but probably the most damning criticism one could level at an ACOG is that they are all more or less invisible while at the same time believing their commission is not so much to make disciples, but to warn the world of the Armstrong version of an apocalypse. And this is non-unfolding as they collect millions of dollars in tithes!
The incongruity of it all!
BB
Exactly Byker, I've said it before that HWA in the 50's proved that he wasn't out to bring people to Christ but to bring them to himself. Claiming they left God's "work" just because they quit sending him money. His hubris stank, still does among the acogs.
Kevin
"And this is non-unfolding as they collect millions of dollars in tithes!"
Hmmm, remind anyone else of "rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing"?
I've said for a long time that while I don't know if the seven churches in Revelation are eras or not, I doubt it, but the WCG was most certainly an "end time?" Laodicean church from its inception. Just as the SDA church is a Thyatira church!
Kevin
Well said, Byker.
"...but the WCG was most certainly an "end time?" Laodicean church from its inception."
So you are sying they are part of the true church then? Can't be Laodicea and a false church at the same time.
9:51pm, It seems that you want to get technical. Ok, Laodicea was not a church it was a city. The message in Rev. 3 was to the church "in" Laodicea, so obviously when I said that WCG was an end time Laodicean church, I was speaking of the attitude that Rev. 3 said they had. I nowhere said that WCG was Laodicea for WCG was not a city.
If you really want to get into the nitty gritty technical details, go for it, I haven't the time nor the desire for that kind of stupidity.
Have fun,
Kevin
9:51pm, also, you continue with your assumptions. You are most likely the same one that I've been talking to, telling you how you continue using generalizations which you rightly condemned. For your information I still keep the sabbath, feasts, etc. and as for the wcg corporation, no I don't believe it was part of the true church. Nor do I believe cogwa, ucg, pcg, lcg, etc, etc. are part of the true church. They are merely corporations, the church is the people, and yes I believe that members of the true church make up those corporations, along with many tares which also make up the corporations. But I believe the same about all claiming the name of Jesus Christ whether in an acog, protestant, catholic, whatever. God knows who are his.
Kevin
Earl, September 24, 2019 at 7:03 AM, said: "...At least for those who are after Christ's Resurrection, it is faith in Christ's sacrifice that saves. Without that you aren't saved. Most in the COGs seem sincere and want to please God so they will be rewarded for that..."
You say: "...Without that you aren't saved..."
It sounds like somebody is earning something if they are to be rewarded for doing something (works?), but what do you mean by saying that without faith in Christ's sacrifice one isn't saved?
Wasn't Paul telling us the truth when he told us he was saved and called: "...with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," 2 Tim 1:9
This sounds like the done deal of a plan of salvation from a time before the world began.
That's what God did for Paul. It wasn’t anything Paul did. It wasn’t Paul's great repentance. God did it for His own purpose and grace and it was all set up way, way before the beginning of the world.
Paul also told us this: "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." 2 Cor 5:19
Not imputing trespasses unto the world! That too sounds like it is God's own purpose and grace to do that.
Time will tell...
John
"It sounds like somebody is earning something if they are to be rewarded for doing something (works?),"
John, do you have a problem with that?
Rev 20:13 - And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Tit 1:16 - They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Eph 2:10 - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Have you considered that there just might be something that we can earn beside salvation? Salvation is a free gift, but other rewards are earned.
By grace you are saved through faith. How extensive and one sided that gift is, I'm not sure nor don't fully understand. But without faith you won't be saved. Whether faith itself is also given is often debated, but faith in the shed blood of Christ is necessary. But, works never will. Kindly works without faith in Christ and His shed Blood does not save. But, I trust God's mercy.
Faith saves. Works reward and are the basis of judgement.
The scriptures are clear and unambiguous. It's a lie to say the scriptures have anything against works or they have no value or purpose.
The faith only people need to read the letter by james and stop justifying their sins by the faith only doctrine.
John 8:34-35 — Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. “The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
Jesus says that if you have faith that he came save you but your works are sinful you will not be in his kingdom. Works matter for salvation according to jesus.
If you have faith in Christ’s sacrifice He changes you and you will have works; faith without works is dead.
Works are not law keeping though. A changed heart visits widows and orphans and wants to bring glory to God. Those are the works James is referring to, not avoiding shellfish or the like.
Take it easy 11:47, No one is coming down on Christian works. However all the good works in the world won’t save you if you do not accept in faith Christ as your Savior. Right?? Just don’t think works are simply works of the law.
Anon, September 27, 2019 at 8:30 AM, said "..."It sounds like somebody is earning something if they are to be rewarded for doing something (works?),"
John, do you have a problem with that?..."
******
No, I have no problem with works, grace, reward, but the problem was with what Earl wrote: "...it is faith in Christ's sacrifice that saves. Without that you aren't saved..."
Earl was saying: Without that faith you aren't saved, as if faith was a requirement for being saved.
Earl was saying: Without that faith in Christ's sacrifice you aren't saved, as if faith in Christ's sacrifice was a requirement for being saved.
Being saved is by a gift from God (Eph 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:"), and not something of SELF, something you do!
John
Earl, September 27, 2019 at 2:54 PM, said...
By grace you are saved through faith. How extensive and one sided that gift is, I'm not sure nor don't fully understand. But without faith you won't be saved. Whether faith itself is also given is often debated, but faith in the shed blood of Christ is necessary. But, works never will. Kindly works without faith in Christ and His shed Blood does not save. But, I trust God's mercy.
******
Earl, why did you not quote all of Eph 2:8?
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:"
Being saved is either a gift or it is not a gift.
Further you say things like: "...I'm not sure nor don't fully understand. But without faith you won't be saved..."
How sure are you that without faith you won't be saved? If you are not sure nod don't fully understand, then why keep saying "But without faith you won't be saved?"
I suggest you do yourself a favor and quote all of Eph 2:8. It's a gift! Being saved is a gift! A gift of God!
Furthermore, you wrote: "...Whether faith itself is also given is often debated, but faith in the shed blood of Christ is necessary..."
What is the debate? There is no debate. That faith is not your faith. That faith is God's faith, another gift of God, part of God's fruit that only God gives. Read Galatians 5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,"
At this time God gives out His fruit of faith by measure/proportion (Romans 12:3, 6), and before all is said and done by God that faith will be given to every man (yes, and woman!).
God is not a respecter of persons, but it is His Will be done how He gives out His gifts, but you can't just get salvation, steal salvation, earn salvation by anything you do.
If God has chosen to be in your life it will be done by the power of His Spirit, through His Son Jesus Christ, and one becomes the workmanship of God's hands and He will provide the faith (His gift) and salvation (His gift). There is no debate, unless you want to debate with God.
And that "shed blood of Christ?" What did John tell us?
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Done deal! And not b/c you, or I, did something. God did something. God does it.
Now, you may strive to save yourself, but God will still work out His perfect Plan of Salvation to save all humanity and subsequently destroy Satan and his angels.
Time will tell...
John
P.S. If you want to question something, then question how is it that one comes to "believe?" Is it something of SELF, or something that God must also provide?
Earl, September 28, 2019 at 11:55 AM, said..."If you have faith in Christ’s sacrifice He changes you and you will have works; faith without works is dead.
Works are not law keeping though. A changed heart visits widows and orphans and wants to bring glory to God. Those are the works James is referring to, not avoiding shellfish or the like.
.."
Earl, if one does not have faith in Christ's sacrifice, then what?
How does one "have faith?" Is your faith of yourSELF? What is the source of faith?
Yes, faith without works is dead.
Yes, works without faith is dead!
Where do "works" come from? Whose works?
Is this all about YOUR faith, YOUR works? God's faith, God's works?
Here is another hint:
John 14:10 "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."
Did Christ lie to us? Will you, of and by SELF, do greater works? How does that work? Christ understood.
And time will tell...
John
"Earl was saying: Without that faith you aren't saved, as if faith was a requirement for being saved."
No, he was saying that it is Christ's sacrifice that saves, and we must have faith in that fact. Just because you were unable to comprehend what he was saying doesn't make him wrong.
Then you say: "Now, you may strive to save yourself, but God will still work out His perfect Plan of Salvation to save all humanity and subsequently destroy Satan and his angels."
You prove that you never understood what the WCG taught about salvation, just as most of the regular posters here either didn't know or have forgotten.
When the bible speaks of salvation, for the most part it's referring to the firstfruits, it's not talking about the entire world except in general. Of course Christ died to save the world, but in their own order. First the firstfruits, of which Christ was the first. Paul is always talking about how the firstfruits are saved. The rest won't live aha n until the thousand years are ended, but most here laugh at what Revelation says. That's why the bible calls many fools!
Take it easy John, not intending to do any WCG like cutting of verses. I read the verse Eph. 2:8 that grace is the gift. Despite what you say, it is okay to say you aren't sure about the extent to which God draws us to Him by providing his Holy Spirit. Is it all God? Then why the many admonitions? II Peter 1:5 tells us "to your faith add virtue, to your virtue knowledge, etc." If you simply say God gives it all and there is no effort required then as long as you are displaying fruits of the spirit and goodly works then go in peace.
I myself see too many things that tell us to extend effort, that our faith can be increased an d other admonitions. However much that is due to our efforts or God's is not that much of a concern to me. I'm becoming more pragmatic as I get older. I suppose I'll understand all that one day when I see the Lord face to face.
Time will tell...
Anon, September 29, 2019 at 12:43 PM, said: "...You prove that you never understood what the WCG taught about salvation, just as most of the regular posters here either didn't know or have forgotten..."
******
WCG was filled with some "Milk" and lots of "Junk Food." The WCG view on salvation was in error.
Further, you stated: "...When the bible speaks of salvation, for the most part it's referring to the firstfruits, it's not talking about the entire world except in general. Of course Christ died to save the world, but in their own order. First the firstfruits, of which Christ was the first. Paul is always talking about how the firstfruits are saved. The rest won't live aha n until the thousand years are ended, but most here laugh at what Revelation says. That's why the bible calls many fools!..."
******
Anon, who are the fools? Those FFs aren't the "be all" and the "end all," b/c God really loves this world, its inhabitants and those FFs are in that world, and those FFs, like the rest of the world, continue to have sin in their lives, and they will pay the wages of sin just like everybody else.
Apparently, you, like the former WCG, did not believe John's words:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
I John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
God is not looking to that small harvest of His sealed FFs, but to the harvesting of that huge Harvest in the Eighth day. Yes, God's Plan calls for all being done in order with harvesting first, Jesus Christ that 1st of the FFs, then the rest of the FFs, and finally "the rest" of humanity. That's all God's choice in doing things decently and in order.
And apparently, you, like the former WCG, did not believe Paul's words:
2 Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Again, God, not you or any FFS, is accomplishing that by His Spirit through His Son, Jesus Christ.
Here's what will be accomplished in your life:
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Are we all fools? Do you still have sin in your life? Join the club!
John
Earl, September 29, 2019 at 4:00 PM, said: "...Take it easy John, not intending to do any WCG like cutting of verses. I read the verse Eph. 2:8 that grace is the gift. Despite what you say, it is okay to say you aren't sure about the extent to which God draws us to Him by providing his Holy Spirit. Is it all God? Then why the many admonitions? II Peter 1:5 tells us "to your faith add virtue, to your virtue knowledge, etc." If you simply say God gives it all and there is no effort required then as long as you are displaying fruits of the spirit and goodly works then go in peace.
I myself see too many things that tell us to extend effort, that our faith can be increased an d other admonitions. However much that is due to our efforts or God's is not that much of a concern to me. I'm becoming more pragmatic as I get older. I suppose I'll understand all that one day when I see the Lord face to face.
Time will tell...
******
Earl, when will you start to do any of those things? Are you 100% successful at it? Have you done enough? Have you qualified for something? Have you earned something?
Add to "your faith?" Where did your faith come from? There is God's faith, a fruit of God's Spirit, that God chooses to give by measure/proportion to few (John 6:44, 65) now, but intends to give to all eventually (Romans 12:3, 6). Yes, faith is His gift, not something you work up by your efforts.
One is the workmanship of God's hands (Eph 2:10) if/when God begins something in him/her:
Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
Did you start/begin anything? Any good work? Will you perform/finish anything? Yes, time will tell.
Jesus told us that of Himself He did nothing. How were "good works" performed in Him, then?
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Of course, Jesus was The Father's perfect Pawn!
God did the works in Him! What was Jesus' part? Where were Jesus' efforts? Jesus was the workmanship of His Father's hands, too!
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Do you believe that verse? You never read Jesus taking credit to Himself.
We are also told: "If this man were not of God, he could do nothing." John 9:33
When will you start/begin to do more than Jesus did? Have you even seen clay move by itself?
Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! [Let] the potsherd [strive] with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
Notice, God didn't give that clay a mouth either! And without hands, a mouth isn't going to be formed. God is very smart.
By the way, a pawn is not a robot. A dictionary explains the difference. Jesus was God's perfect Pawn.
Yes, there are admonitions in the Bible, but who is doing the works? Can man do them? Is Jer 17:9 true? If yes, then how will you do something to change that? How about Romans 8:7?
Back to that clay!
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou [art] our father; we [are] the clay, and thou our potter; and we all [are] the work of thy hand.
Be pragmatic, more pragmatic, but if God doesn't "do it" in you, than who will do it?
You may want to consider the "all in all:"
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
And, time will tell...
John
Well John, Like I said, if you love God and accept Christ's sacrifice and are exhibiting fruits of repentance and fruits of the Holy Spirit, then I think your "all in all" is working for you.
I believe Christ was God on earth though and was not simply a pawn of the Father. Too many verses indicate otherwise and the one's you quote are not conclusive. You seem to be trying to interpret my words in a peculiar way, stating things I did not say and omitting things I did say.
It is no new concept to me that perhaps God does everything entirely and that we have no role in that. If that is the way God wanted to do it, I'm fine with that. But, there is much admonition and it must be there for a reason. So, as belief is counted as righteousness and as we can add to our faith and pray for strength and the like, I am comfortable presuming I am an unworthy person who the Lord called and blessed undeservedly and one who can respond to the admonitions given. As you say, we sin. Is it the Spirit of God that makes us sin or does It just force us not to at other times? Is belief simply the end all be all and that given by God? I could make the argument, but still I can make a counter argument too as sinning against the Holy Spirit means something--more than something as it leads to condemnation. I'd suggest being thankful to our Lord who saves and strengthens us and allowing the desire to please Him and glorify Him guide our actions and don't let the Spirit be quenched.
Earl, it does work for me and others, but not, as you imply, for yourself and that’s okay. You’re doing the best you can with what you have.
You “…believe Christ was God on earth,” but I don’t. Why not? To believe that is to believe in the “spirit of antichrist:”
“And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.” 1 John 4:3
One is making Christ into something that He wasn't. Christ knew who God was, and He knew He was not some God in the flesh.
Was Christ the Son of God? Yes, and that was declared after He was baptized, raised out of the water and God’s Spirit dwelled in Him and remained (John 1:33) in Him from that time on.
Christ, like the Word, had a beginning. The God, God the Father, has no beginning or ending. God, and neither Christ, nor the Word, in Deut 32:40, said "...I live forever..." Christ's temporary cessation from life lasted 3 days and 3 nights.
Christ, as a human being, was just like us: flesh, blood and bone, and no “...flesh should glory in his [[God’s]] presence.” 1Co 1:29
What God did, by the power of His Spirit, in Christ’s life was the huge miracle of God, wasn’t it? Did Christ lie to us when He said the following?
“Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” John 14:10
God shares His glory with nobody, including His Son, and Christ surely isn’t going to steal any of the Father’s glory to Himself, but you believe Christ was more than flesh, blood and bone? You are welcome to do that, but it doesn’t make it so.
Time will tell…
John
Earl, October 4, 2019 at 12:16 PM, asked: “Is it the Spirit of God that makes us sin or does It just force us not to at other times?”
It is ridiculous to think God’s Spirit would be in the details and makes one sin, but we may read the following:
“He that committeth sin is of the devil…” I John 3:8
Did John lie to us? Could “the Devil be in the details,” as some like to quote? Think about the following details as it is one reason you cannot make yourself sinless:
“…The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy…” James 4:5
That’s in you, and me. Do you believe it or do you think James lied to us?
If there is to be overcoming you, of yourSELF, won’t do it, but there is a God who is capable of doing that by His Spirit through His Son, but God receives all of the credit, glory, honor for doing that. I find so many people, thinking they are doing so much, strive to take that glory to self, and we know we were told man can’t even direct his own steps (Jer 10:23).
Earl, at the beginning of this response, you asked a very good question.
God has the power to overcome what makes sin. Similarly, Satan has the power (2 Tim 2:26; I John 3:8) to infest/infect our minds and cause sin (e.g. murder as in the case of Cain’s killing his own brother, Abel: see I John 3:12). Satan was busy with the minds of Adam and Eve, with their “very good” human nature, before the theft of the fruit from that God-created Tree of Knowledge of good and evil occurred. Do you remember what Satan did to Judas before he went about doing something resulting in the murder (John 8:44 ring a bell? of Jesus Christ?
But, that was all part of a Plan, and We are going to learn to hate evil. We are going to sin, and pay those wages of Romans 6:23, but we will all, in one way or another, have our noses rubbed in evil and come to hate it before all is said and done.
It’s all part of God’s Plan to ultimately save humanity and eventually take care of some other details such as to destroy Satan and his angels.
Time will tell…
John
You said in this artilce: "It denies and mocks the one they claim to follow and places all of its emphasis on keeping the law and a pathetically disproven belief in British Israelism."
You obviously have not read any of the written works of Stephen Collins or Yair Davidiy, who are two of the world's leading authorities on the Lost Ten Tribes of Israel. What personal research have you done to disprove British Israelism?
Much of the stuff on your website is nothing but irrelevant gossip and criticism. Why don't you do something positive with the rest of your life and change your terrible attitude toward God and His church?
I've read Collins and Davidiy"s junk and it proves nothing. It is not a relevant topic for any New Covenant Christian. It is junk "theology" for those who refuse to place their trust in Jesus, in which there is neither Greek nor Gentile, Jew nor Roman. Their books belong on the same dung heap as US&BC in Prophecy and Mystery of the Ages.
None are saved on their own, I have said this or an equivalent multiple times. I’m not sure why you keep saying I am saying you can save “Yourself”. What you define as the spirit of Antichrist is not correct. Your quote regards someone who is in fact denying that Jesus was the Christ, which Has never been in question. Anyway I believe Christ came in the flesh. Immanuel means God with us. So, I’m comfortable with both that Immanuel came in the flesh and that He was Christ. To call this qualifying as antichrist is false and foolish. It seemingly displays a rigid judgmentalism based in the belief that you have all the answers. I know you do not. You also see through a glass dimly.
Earl, October 5, 2019 at 1:10 PM, said: “...What you define as the spirit of Antichrist is not correct. Your quote regards someone who is in fact denying that Jesus was the Christ, which Has never been in question…”
Well, it does deny Christ, also. You’ve invented “another Jesus” by making the real Jesus into something He wasn’t. Here’s another way people deny, since you bring up the word denying, Jesus:
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.” 2 Peter 2:1
Christ bought human beings, ALL human beings, with a price: that of His shed blood, bu you, as do others, deny that and keep saying there are other “strings attached,” as if to earn salvation, b/c “the Lord that bought them” isn’t sufficient. Well, it is. You take issue with me, but you really take issue with the scriptures I quoted to you.
For example, when it comes to sin, what is it about “…He that committeth sin is of the devil…” I John 3:8 that is false? Is sin in your life? There is no need to blame/judge anything else. God believes those words that He inspired; why don’t you?
God the Father gave His Son (John 3:16-17), not to condemn this world, and His Son gave His life and “bought them,” as it says. What else is required? Is God smart or not? Will God take care of it or not? Does God need your help, or my help, in any way?
Then you say: “…Anyway I believe Christ came in the flesh. Immanuel means God with us. So, I’m comfortable with both that Immanuel came in the flesh and that He was Christ…”
When has God been “with us?” Yes, God was with the Word. Yes, God was with Jesus, but when was “God with US?” Your belief is wrong, but believe it until you learn/prove it otherwise, and we may read “…the Word was MADE flesh…” (John 1:14). You apparently don’t believe that either.
Christ was the 1st of the Firstfruits to be sealed by God. Do you know how God, who is consistent, makes Firstfruits? Read verses 12-13, because Christ was made the same way. When you can’t believe that, you have an issue with the One who inspired those words: not me. I’m just a messenger: someone that can be “shot.”
And Immanuel? Have you ever heard, or read, anywhere where somebody went to Jesus and called Him, “Immanuel, Immanuel, Immanuel…Immanuel?” No, of course, you haven’t. Re-read the verse:
“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.” Isa 7:14
Note that a woman did “bear a son” and it was flesh, blood and bone: not "God in the flesh!" And note the word “shall,” b/c later (Future tense: actually in the time of the fulfillment of The Eight Day, after the 2nd resurrection occurs) The God will be on earth dwelling among men (Rev 21:3), and Jesus [also then having the name God, but a God and not The God (the Word was with The (missing from the AKJV in John 1:1) God))] SHALL be there along with His Bride (the rest of the sealed Firstfruits). Guess what? God, The God, SHALL be with us, among men finally, and Jesus will bear that name Immanuel then.
Again, The God was with the Word and with Jesus, but “US?”
Again, you have no problem with what I said, but with what you believe Isaiah 7 is actually saying and meaning.
Finally, you believe what you want to, but remember that you have already been bought with a very valuable price, and someday you will be thrilled to learn that God didn’t expect anything else of you. God does it. God did it. God really so loved the world, but there is a plan to accomplish.
And time will tell…
John
Again, you write so much that doesn't apply. It seems you believe (whoops, or a spirit within you believes) that accepting Christ's sacrifice is not enough. Of course, you or the spirit within you believes that acceptance of Christ's sacrifice requires the belief that one's belief itself is fully given. Further, it seems you or the spirit within you believes that "who so believeth in Him" also requires no choice either and is fully God given. Scripture gives admonition; it sets choice before us. It tells us belief is counted as righteousness. When I say I'm not sure about how this movement to "belief" fully occurs, you or the spirit within you claim(s) one has the spirit of anti-christ and does not accept Christ's sacrifice and believes in doing it on one's own.
In your mind (or the mind of the spirit within you) the tweak of uncertainty becoming certainty of God's absolute role in our movement to "belief" is required to move from not accepting Christ's sacrifice to accepting Christ's sacrifice. This is not scriptural. I do not believe you see God as fully as He sees us. Your or the spirit within you's belief is that there is no element of free will.
You quote I Jn 3:8 out of context. A better translation that fits the context is "he that practices sin". I'm not sure why the Bible would be filled with admonitions and instructions under your or (the spirit within you's) beliefs; this cheapens scripture and removes logic. Given your post above-- do you do anything outside the glory of God?
The beginning of my second paragraph stated more clearly:
"In your mind (or the mind of the spirit within you) becoming certain of how we come to belief is required to accept Christ's sacrifice. Without this certainty, your or the spirit within you's typing fingers believe someone does not accept the sacrifice of Christ and is creating an inaccurate version of christ and thus anti-christ. This is not scriptural (it's absolutist thinking of the WCG variety)."
I don’t mind saying your condescension annoyed me, yet when I say “you or the spirit within you” I’m not saying it to mock. I really don’t know how to address the beliefs of someone that does not believe in free will.
I don’t know why a Savior who wants all to be saved simply doesn’t just make everyone believe and thus be saved. There must be some reason for all the admonitions and instructions and the struggles of this life; without the element of free will it doesn’t make much sense to me...though like anyone else I can come up with an argument for such a belief but it is not compelling to me.
Believe and be saved makes sense to me. It doesn’t limit the function of our Lord in any way. Who can boast simply by believing? There is nothing to boast about simply in believing, but there is thankfulness. This is why believers desire to spread the gospel; that they can help others receive the Spirit they have. Works and vain actions may cause boasting,but believing does not.
Again, whatever the mechanism is that leads someone to believe is not fully clear to me, but I believe there must be some free will. Yet, if there isn’t I’m good with that. Neither mechanism gives anyone cause for boasting.
Earl, October 7, 2019 at 8:43 AM, wrote: "...You quote I Jn 3:8 out of context. A better translation that fits the context is "he that practices sin"..."
Earl, where did you get that word "practices?" Better translation? Who says so? Besides, you entirely missed the point of why I quoted:
"He that committeth sin is of the devil..."
The point was that bit about "of the devil," but you can't believe that; can you? Did John lie to us?
Earl, you said: “I'm not sure why the Bible would be filled with admonitions and instructions…”
I did notice that on October 4, 2019 at 12:16 PM, you wrote a concern about that same topic: “…“But, there is much admonition and it must be there for a reason…”
Admonitons are like someone telling you to “Get back on track,” but, hopefully, it would be a “right track” and not some evil track that just “looks good.”
And if God, by His Spirit, gives you the “to will” and the “to do (Hint: Phil 2:13),” then by His Spirit you will be a doer with the will to do! Why wouldn’t you? Jesus Christ, God’s perfect Pawn, who said of Himself He could do nothing, perfectly showed us that it was possible.
“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do...” And there is a reason for when you don’t will/do, and you won’t be a doer unless/until it’s God’s good pleasure (Read the rest of Phil 2:13) and will to do that in you.
Wouldn’t you like to be a pawn of God? Christ loves being a pawn of His Father, and it beats being a pawn, and prisoner, of the god of this present evil world but, then again, that isn’t your choice (John 6:44; Phil 1:6; Eph 1:6; John 6:65, etc). There is no choice when it comes to salvation and since God knows who are part of His workmanship, He knows who will be in the 1st resurrection, and then later “pick up the rest” in the 2nd resurrection; there is no need for any man-made up, fairy tale, myth (like that silly Mickey Mouse Millennium of Christ reigning on earth soon for 1,000 years) of a 3rd resurrection. God is not a respecter of persons, but He must work out His Plan His way.
If it were your choice, wouldn’t you then always MAKE yourSELF sinless? But you can’t do it, and neither can I! That is one of the major lessons (a shadow?) we learn from the goings on of ancient physical Israel in the OT.
None of us, regardless of all of the admonitions you have in mind, is going to magically impress God (1 Cor 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.) by professing glory for anything we think we do...or for that matter, don't do. The miracle is all about what God, not self, by His own power through His Son does in one’s life.
Time will tell.
John
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