That Great Day of the Feast
Then, we read: "In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (John 7:37-39) How ironic is that? On this last day of the ACOG's attempt to celebrate the FOT, Jesus Christ invited ANYONE who wanted God's Holy Spirit to come to him!
The ACOG's love to quote John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." In the very next chapter, however, we have Christ issuing this invitation to everyone on the Last Great Day of the Feast! Did Christ really mean that salvation through him was open to everyone? What does that do to the exclusivity narrative promulgated by Herbert Armstrong and his successors? It appears that some folks are concerned with being first, and that Christ was thinking about salvation for EVERYONE! Hmmmmm, I seem to recall Christ having something to say about those who wanted to be first!
Lonnie Hendrix
23 comments:
Lonnie, you're arguing with God not HWA, the WCG or the ACOGs.
Rev 20:5 - But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 14:4 - These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Lonnie, do you know what "firstfruits" denotes? Other fruits, whether second, third, forth or whatever.
Also, do you not know what the "rest of the dead" means? Protestants and Catholics condemn them all to hell or purgatory. "Armstrongism" says they'll have the opportunity to be saved.
Now who are the arrogant ones?
The LGD was yesterday, called Hoshanna Rabba. Today, prior to sunset, was the "Eighth Day". HWA etc (ACOG's) didn't understand the calendar or Holy Days.
This is not just a COG problem, it's a problem for christianity as a whole. This is another one of those biblical contradictions that many cover their eyes and ears to avoid confronting how their dogma doesn't square with reality while dogmatically asserting such imperfections are not even possible. This is just another of the many cracks and incogruities evidencing how false the whole thing is. There isn't any evidence that it's true, but there's quite a bit of evidence that it's false, but only for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.
Christ's "if any man thirst, let him come to me and drink.." must be seen in context. In Matthew 21:31 Christ said "tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom ahead of you.." This was before the holy spirit had even been given. Meaning people can be qualifying for the kingdom by repenting and living a Christians life, even though they will not be the bride of Christ.
Notice the importance of this "getting a head start." The parable of the sower explains how some will quickly fall away, while others will persevere and qualify. This also means that those who go to the better private schools Will have a better chance to qualify for the kingdom than those who go to ordinary public schools. Yep, the rich get richer. So again, tell your kids and grand kids to work hard and do their homework or they will fall away when called.
Anonymous 10/21/19 @ 5:09,
One of the hallmarks of HWA and the ACOG's is their use of prooftexting. For them, the presence of the Holy Spirit is demonstrated by KNOWLEDGE - instead of things like love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, ,meekness and temperance. For them, God's people are identified by their understanding of certain "truths" - not by the love that Christ said would distinguish his followers from others.
In other words, HWA and the ACOG's pervert and twist what it means to be a part of the firstfruits. They rejoice in the glory, honor, respect and power that will be given to the firstfruits - instead of rejoicing in the understanding that other fruits are implicit in that designation. They fall into the same mindset that afflicted the ancient Israelites and Pharisees of Christ's day. They glory in THEIR special position - instead of the responsibilities which God has given to "His" people.
Yes, arrogance is one of the other hallmarks of HWA and his followers - humility and putting others first is a hallmark of Christ's followers!
No Lonnie, your post is full of arrogance. You don't like something? Rant about proof texting. Have you ever even been to a Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran etc. service? I have. They too think they are the elite. So what you describe isn't Armstrongism, it's human nature. Just as Dennis thinks he's so much smarter than all those poor ignorant souls who believe in a myth.
Armstrongism's major (not only) problems were in the uncontrolled human nature of the members, and many here, who now reject the teachings, were once part and parcel with all the self righteous arrogance, and you Lonnie are no different today, you're just pushing a different agenda, as are your buddies here!
You're most all still as self righteous and arrogant as ever.
3.14 PM
Armstrongism's major problem was Armstrong himself. He was the one who dictated the church culture. Religiously he was more a Muslim than a bible Christian. His 'government is everything' is totalitarianism, just like with Islam. The word Islam means submission. His 'give way' is submission to the non winners of society. Also Herbie, like Islam, didn't tolerate the questioning of doctrines. He rejected the bibles 'prove all things' and followed the intolerant practices of the Mullahs. And wasn't Herbs sex life more Muslim than Christian?
So calling Herbie Ayatollah Armstrong would be appropriate.
Anonymous 10/22/19 @ 3:14 said...
“You're most all still as self righteous and arrogant as ever.”
And you’re not?!
Lonnie Hendrix, NO2HWA at 3:57:00 PM, wrote: "...It appears that some folks are concerned with being first, and that Christ was thinking about salvation for EVERYONE! Hmmmmm..."
Yes, as in John 3
:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Yes, as in 2 Cor 5
:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Yes, as in I John 2
:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Yes, as in 2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Etc., well, unless God is some respecter of persons.
Time will tell...
John
I wonder if they still have fun with the hymns at the Feast, like this wonderful example from bygone times.
"Brethren, we're going to sing 'Count Your Blessings' next, and we're going to mix things up with a little contest to see who can sing the loudest! First of all, where it says 'one by one', I want you to replace those words with 'ton by ton'! On the first verse, the entire congregation will sing! On the second verse, I want all the men to sing, and then we'll all join in on the chorus! Third verse, all the women will sing, and we'll all join in the chorus. And on the fourth verse, all,the Colored Brethren will sing, and we'll all join in on the chorus! Come on, Brethren, let's make a really joyful noise that God can hear all the way up in the third heaven!"
BB
@BB 10:31 pm--yep, there's still some mixing up with the hymns.
We didn't have any word replacements, but did the 'men on this verse'/'women on this other verse' a couple of times.
Some of us tried not too think too hard about the depressing lyrics on a few of them...
Hello Lonnie,
As mentioned in some of the comments above, the Bible reveals a great plan of God to bring all mankind to salvation through a time-ordered process. The first-fruits/first resurrection (a better resurrection) revelation is clearly mentioned in scripture. It is not a matter of some humans "wanting to be first" that defines God's plan for man. It is God Himself who is revealing through the scriptures what, how, when and why He is accomplishing this great magnificent plan of redemption for all of mankind who are willing to respond to the mercy of a Creator God.
Regarding "being first" - there's nothing wrong with that. But, it is God who decides that - not any of us! But if God has called us now - then we have a responsibility to answer that call and respond to God's mercy to us! Yes, there IS first-fruits and a first resurrection in God's great plan! Nothing wrong with that! Nothing wrong with knowing that and responding to it! But, it DOES carry a responsibility to respond to God!
Disagreements over British Israelism or how to understand prophecy is not a salvation issue. Mocking God's plan of salvation for mankind might be a more serious issue. I agree with the person who stated that you're arguing with God - not with the COGs. Perhaps you should think carefully about that.
Regarding the spiritual immaturity of the old WCG: It is widely recognized by many brethren now that the Church had spiritual immaturity issues in the old WCG culture. The problem was not core doctrine - it was spiritual immaturity. Yes, WCG did focus much on knowledge - and often only secondarily on the fruits of the spirit. Yes, there was a wrong type of pride about doctrinal knowledge. Yes, there was an immature attitude in some ways toward the "world" that the Church needed to grow out of. But many brethren are growing and moving forward: Not to reject our calling - but to it hold it fast with a personal responsibility to grow spiritually, so we can be of service to help Jesus Christ when He sets His hand to save all of mankind.
https://www.ucg.org/sermons/the-mystery-of-the-firstfruits
Dean
Dean gave a nice overview/summary of the past/present condition; however, he also wrote: "...But, it DOES carry a responsibility to respond to God!...But many brethren are growing and moving forward: Not to reject our calling - but to it hold it fast with a personal responsibility to grow spiritually, so we can be of service to help Jesus Christ when He sets His hand to save all of mankind..."
Even that responsibility God does not leave up to us.
"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:" Phil 1:6
God does that just like He created ancient physical Israel to exist from a miracle, God is also creating spiritual Israel, God's Church, to exist by His miracle. He does it and He can't fail.
"To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." Eph 1:6
Again, God makes that happen. How?
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Eph 2:10
How do we know?
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure." Phil 2:13
And, if God does not do things like this and other scriptures say, then who will?
God will also see, within His perfect plan of salvation to save all humanity and subsequently destroy Satan and his angels, that the following is accomplished:
"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." 2 Cor 5:19
Huh?
"Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do [it]." I Thess 5:24
Who does it?
Time will tell...
John
Hi John,
Yes, I agree. When I said it is our responsibility, I meant that it is our choice to follow God or not follow God. Of course, it is God's responsibility to fashion us (and only He can!) into His workmanship as converted children. The "work is God" is us - as we respond to Him. But, while only God can put His divine nature in us - we do have to choose to respond to His call and follow the lead of His Holy Spirit. We can choose to neglect or forsake our calling - it's our choice to make.
We know that today is not the day of salvation for most people. If it were, then God has been losing badly for centuries. As HWA used to say: If God was trying to save the world now - the world would be getting saved. Clearly, the world is not getting saved now.
God has a magnificent time-ordered plan to redeem mankind. The COG's - despite our human faults - understand the basics of this. That is a good thing! Something to hold too and not let go.
Dean
Dean
My response: https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2019/10/on-being-first.html
Dean, October 27, 2019 at 12:17 AM: wrote: "...Hi John,
Yes, I agree. When I said it is our responsibility, I meant that it is our choice to follow God or not follow God. Of course, it is God's responsibility to fashion us (and only He can!) into His workmanship as converted children. The "work is God" is us - as we respond to Him. But, while only God can put His divine nature in us - we do have to choose to respond to His call and follow the lead of His Holy Spirit. We can choose to neglect or forsake our calling - it's our choice to make..."
Dean, thank you for your comments.
What comes to my mind at this juncture is a reminder of what Jesus told others, and it is still applicable to us today, that: "...This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." John 6:29
God is only working with those Firstfruits He intends to seal. That is not our choice:
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: [{power: or, the right, or, privilege }]
:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
God will fulfill that responsibility. Those He works with will be drawn, actually means dragged, according to John 6:44 and that dragging will last a lifetime. Thank God He does that. He will start/begin and finish/end the process according to Phil 1:6 or we have been lied to:
"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:" [{perform: or, finish } Thank God for that too.
God, not self choosing something, will provide the "to will" and the "to do" to accomplish God's will for them. Phil 2:13
Jesus Christ, of Himself, knew He could do nothing. How was the work accomplished in His life? The same way: by the power of God's Spirit, which enables one to believe these verses:
Ephesians 1:13 "In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"
Thankfully, God does it. Don't leave it up to me, b/c I'd make the wrong decisions probably virtually everytime.
Again, when God begins something, He will see it through, as illustrated by the following verses:
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Done deal! A person guided by God's Spirit is going to accomplish God's will. There is no need for Fear Religions of this world, which is controlled by the principalities. God intends to accomplish providing belief, as part of His work, within every human being. We read something similar with faith, a fruit of God's Spirit and not something produced by self:
Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to EVERY MAN the measure of faith. [{soberly: Gr. to sobriety }
]
:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the proportion of faith;
God, no respecter of persons, will provide a measure/proportion to every man, and as you mentioned God "has a magnificent time-ordered plan to redeem mankind," and He will do it.
Eventually, all mankind will acknowledge the following:
"But now, O LORD, thou [art] our father; we [are] the clay, and thou our potter; and we all [are] the work of thy hand." Isaiah 64:8
Time will tell...
John
John, what you seem to be presenting is that we have absolutely no say in any of it. That God does it all and if he chooses us we can't refuse that choice.
If I'm understanding your position correctly you are so wrong.
If that's the case then why the hell are we even going through what we're going through? Why didn't God just give us eternal life in the first place if that is his choice?
Perhaps you've been reading too much of Martin Luther.
Anon, October 30, 2019 at 7:00 AM, you appear to be upset when you asked the following questions: "...If that's the case then why the hell are we even going through what we're going through? Why didn't God just give us eternal life in the first place if that is his choice?..."
Nevertheless, they are reasonable questions, and I am not going to have an answer that will satisfy you, but I believe for God to work out His Plan of salvation to save all men (humanity) and subsequently destroy Satan and his angels is part of His perfect Plan, and that for God to work it out any other way would not be perfect.
We are all going to sin, and die, and in the process learn to hate evil.
Asking your questions would be like asking God something like: "Why did you create a tree of good and evil? Why is that "evil" part necessary?"
Without access to God's Spirit, and with the introduction of Satan (2 Tim 2:26) into the Garden of Eden, I believe God knew what was going to happen. Satan knows how human beings function, and how Satan, who was created without fear (awe for the Creator), operates. It's a Plan whereby God will end up with the salvation of all human beings, and destruction of Satan and his angels, and we will end up appreciating God worked it out to benefit all of us.
John 3:16-17 sound like done deals, don't they?
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Or, did God lie to us? God's Plan is a long-range Plan in process to achieve the end result He is looking for.
What choice is there in the following verses?
John 6:44 No man can come to me, EXCEPT the Father which hath sent me draw (means: DRAG) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 ¶ What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?
Sorry, you seem upset, but your questions will someday be answered to your satisfaction.
I believe God is not a respecter of persons.
We could ask, another question, like the one that just came to mind: "How did God know in Revelation 2-3 exactly how each era, congregation, of His Church would work out as He said? Where was the choice in any of them 7 Churches?"
But, it must play out as stated, or God would be a liar. Someday we will see the "end of the matter" more clearly than we do today. I am encouraged
Others, with their own opinions and speculations, probably can come up with some idea of what they think is really going on, but we will all "endure to the end," whatever and whenever that may be. I also believe most are doing the best they can with whatever they've been given, and that:
Time will tell...
John
John,
So your ridiculous Lutheran teaching can only be proven by "Who are you to question God?"
You are one hilarious dude.
Time has told!
"But, it must play out as stated, or God would be a liar. Someday we will see the "end of the matter" more clearly than we do today. I am encouraged"
Wrong. If as you claim, that God decides everything, then God could have created us all with eternal life and not made us suffer this physical torture. (If you don't think this life is torture you are closing your eyes to those who are really suffering in this world.)
John, the God you portray is a monster!
And yes, I will question a monster every day of the week.
Anon, October 31, 2019 at 6:40 AM, wrote: "...Wrong. If as you claim, that God decides everything, then God could have created us all with eternal life and not made us suffer this physical torture. (If you don't think this life is torture you are closing your eyes to those who are really suffering in this world.) John, the God you portray is a monster!..."
The existence of evils today are very well known, but God didn't make us suffer, but the One you consider a monster has these words of hope:
Romans 8:20 For the creature was MADE SUBJECT TO vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in HOPE,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. [{the … : or, every creature }
]23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].
If you consider those words of the Bible and you don't like them: why not take it up with that "monster" you have in your mind?
Will those words be fulfilled?
Time will tell...well, better still, keep up your questions until you find the answers, perhaps elsewhere, if that makes you happy.
John
John, it's the god that you present who I'm calling a monster, not the God of the bible. You twist and misrepresent what the true God has said and portray him as a monster. The real God is nothing like what you present.
My questions aren't to the real God, I seriously question your twisting of the bible!
Anon, October 31, 2019 at 3:02 P, wrote: "...You twist and misrepresent what the true God has said and portray him as a monster. The real God is nothing like what you present..."
The real God is as we've been told:
1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Yes, as described elsewhere:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Deut 32:39 See now that I, [even] I, [am] he, and [there is] no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither [is there any] that can deliver out of my hand.
:40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
etc.
Time will tell...
John
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