The non-denominational Christian has a plaque on her living room wall with the Joshua quote. She posted a comment on social media recounting her experience as a child whose parents believed that Christmas was pagan and did not celebrate Christ's birth. She went on to mention the fact that some members of her family still don't celebrate Christmas, but that she respects them, accepts their devotion to Christ and loves them just the same. She said that Christ was/is the most perfect expression of God's light and love and concluded that this was something that everyone should be able to rally around.
The Armstrong Church of God Christian posted the Joshua quote in his explanation of why he and his family don't celebrate the holiday. For him, his choice to not observe this holiday reflects his decision to put God's will first. In other words, those who choose to observe the holiday may not be serving the Lord.
As I read through their comments, it occurred to me that their remarks demonstrate that this scripture (Joshua 24:15) means very different things to both of them. For one of them, the words reflect their devotion and commitment to God. For the other, the same words seem to imply that we are doing the Lord's will and you aren't. Both of these young people appear to be devoted to God and their faith. Both of them give one the impression that they are sincere and good people. Both look to be following the dictates of their conscience in this matter.
For me, this family interaction perfectly demonstrates the point that Christ made to his disciples about judging each other. It also illustrates the point that Paul was trying to make to the saints at Rome and Colossae about different religious observances. If it is your personal conviction to observe or not observe a particular day, then follow that conviction. Your observance or lack of observance is not the thing that matters in the end - it is your attitude toward what you are doing that matters in the final analysis. I believe that both of these young people have exhibited the light and love of Christ in their lives, but I worry about any feelings of superiority or self-righteousness that might poke its slimy way into their hearts.
Miller Jones
38 comments:
I can't believe that Jesus was so judgemental towards the Pharisees, they were merely trying to obey God to the best of their understanding and ability!
"In other words, those who choose to observe the holiday may not be serving the Lord."
they aren't...they think they are, but they are not....they are actually insulting God to a degree they cannot comprehend.
they day is coming, however, when God will open their eyes to what is right, and hopefully they will accept it and go with it.
"love" has been so perverted and twisted to mean "accept anything or you don't love me" that there will be a rude awakening for a lot of folks out there....
Was Jesus judgmental towards the Pharisees who were merely trying to obey God? I don't think so. I think his condemnation was directed towards those among them who were phonies. Those who put observing man-made traditions over the written Law. Those who imposed burdensome traditions onto the people, but who weren't willing to help them in their struggle. Didn't he say that there will come a time when some of these phonies sill say, "Didn't I teach in your name . . . etc." and Jesus replies, "depart from me, (nice way of saying "go to hell"), I never knew you" Matt 7:22.
I always loved the Bob Dylan song "Serve Somebody". The lesson of the song was that whether we realize it or not, part of the human condition is that we are all in the process of serving somebody. The implication is that it makes better sense if we make it a matter of deliberate choice as to who or what.
BB
Anonymous 1/11/2020 @ 6:03,
Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for many things, but he never chastised them for doing their best to obey God! Christ criticized their hypocrisy, the hardness of their hearts, their attachment to tradition, their lack of compassion for others, their love of form over substance, their self-righteousness and love of glory. In short, many of them weren't trying to please God or do God's will - they were more interested in protecting and extending their own authority and influence. And, just for the record, Jesus was in a much better position to judge them then one of his people would be to judge his brother or sister!
Anon,January 11, 2020 at 6:03 AM, said:
******
"...I can't believe that Jesus was so judgemental towards the Pharisees, they were merely trying to obey God to the best of their understanding and ability!
I can't believe it either, b/c Jesus, who understood we do not wrestle flesh and blood, "xplained" it within the context: like "reading between the lines/verses:"
Matthew 23:29 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!..."
:33 "[Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"
:34 "Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:"
:35 "That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar."
Actually, you will understand it by asking the following questions:
1. Which Pharisee was alive in the days of Abel and shed the blood of Abel?
2. Which Pharisee was alive in the days of Zacharias and shed the blood of Zacharias?
Jesus did not judge, nor condemn, the human beings.
And if you can't and do not believe those words of Jesus, b/c the judgment (Matthew 25:34) for Abel, Zacharias, and the Pharisees is already determined), then time (when you later see those very Pharisees, and Abel, and Zacharias, oh, and Cain in the K/G) will have to tell...
John
603. The Pharisees are not accurately portrayed in the Gospels. The very word "Pharisee" is loaded with all sorts of Christian baggage that is not historically accurate. The Sadducees, lackeys of Rome were more the problem but the writers weren't so stupid as to criticize them too much or the Romans at all. That got you killed. Only near believing and benevolent Romans made it into the Gospels. Another false impression given by anonymous gospel writers witnesses of nothing
Isn't it ironic when we can't agree on todays news reports - which are fiction, which are opinions, which are biased, which are misleading because of partial truths, and yet here we are arguing over the writers from 1,900 years ago - do we think humans were better back then?
We have no writings that are claimed to be written by Jesus - all we have are writings from unknown others who claim to be reporting what Jesus and the others around him said or did.
We can't trust today's news, but the news reports from 1,900 years ago are accurate?
My comment I believe that both of these young people have exhibited the light and love of Christ in their lives, but I worry about any feelings of superiority or self-righteousness that might poke its slimy way into their hearts.
In looking at this posting I find that it deals contributes to Christian church differences. It assumes these differences will injure the minds of people if not addresses. That may be but it is more likely if the individuals decide connect with like minded individuals. If they want a Christian church they will find that every all Christian churches have different views regarding true believers in Jesus Christ.
Even here these differences have become the source of dispute. The only solution is a factor that depends on the faith in the biblical record and the indwelling of Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit of the Biblical God and Prayer. If we depend on other human beings and our personal wisdom in the world today we may lose connection with God.
8:03am Don't you recognize sarcasm when you see it?
The Pharisees were criminally minded rather than sincerely wrong. Dragging them into this discussion à misses the point of the article. Perhaps the Sadducees non belief in the after life would be a better example.
John, Christ said 'woe to you scribes and Pharisees...' He did not say 'woe to you demons...' No questions are required to 'understand it.' You must be using the Wacko translation of the bible.
Are any of you able to recognize sarcasm when you see it?
Miller judges the cog on judging others for keeping pagan holidays. After all, they're "doing their best" to worship God. Yet he wants us to believe that Jesus didn't condemn them for "doing their best" but for not "trying to please God or do God's will". Whatever that mumbo jumbo is supposed to mean.
Lonnie began the accurate portrayal of those trying to worship God using their own method by this next statement
"In short, many of them weren't trying to please God or do God's will - they were more interested in" how they felt, how good it made them feel, not how God wanted them to obey.
Here's a perfect prophecy describing the people who Miller thinks we're so judgemental of
Eze 33:31 - And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness.
Why should they "do" what God commands? That doesn't "feel good". The days that they made to worship God are so much better. They make them feel so much better. Can't you feel the love at Christmas time? Tabernacles is stupid, Christmas is so much better. After all isn't it all about how our worship makes us feel? Who cares if it's what God ordained.
Yep, dripping with sarcasm!
"Those who put observing man-made traditions over the written Law."
Yet that is exactly what you are promoting Lonnie. Christmas is a man made tradition, yet you portray the cog as judgemental for pointing out that isn't what God ordained!
Sorry, I can't help what I visualize when arguments arise about how to serve the lord. I wonder whether he should be served in the form of matzoh and wine or Ritz crackers and grape juice.
Lonnie is correct. It does not matter what days you keep. Scripture even says so.
So you think that the biblical holy days are ordained from god do you?
Well they are not.
https://hwarmstrong.com/ambassador.report/AncientIsraeliteFestivals/index.html
Where in Scripture is Myrtle Beach designated as a feast site? Where in Scripture does it tell us that it's God's will that we should stay in a Holiday Inn during the feast? Where in Scripture is it designated that there will be two, two-hour services on high days? And why don't the ACOGs celebrate the other pilgrimage feasts in the same way that they do Tabernacles? "Those who put observing man-made traditions over the written Law." The ACOGs are full of Herbert-made traditions, but reject religious traditions that have survived hundreds of years.
They pretend to know and follow God's will. Their piety is demonstrated by scrupulously trying to follow do's and don'ts which have only been followed perfectly by one individual, Jesus Christ (which he did for us). Even worse, everyone who doesn't follow those do's and don'ts is wrong. And, they're not just wrong - they're against God! Everyone who doesn't embrace their definition of truth couldn't possibly be a Christian. They major in the minors and often completely neglect the majors (things like love, kindness, patience, faithfulness, etc.)
And, just for the record, most of the "pagan" history surrounding Christmas is twisted and inaccurate. Like it or not, for many many Christians, Christmas celebrates the birth of their Savior (an event recounted in two of the gospel accounts which they accept as inspired). It's fine if it doesn't mean that for you, but who are you to tell them what it means to them! ACOG folks don't accept the traditional view that the festivals outlined in Leviticus 23 were intended for the Jews.
I continue to see individuals within the ACOG movement who are sincere and exhibit the fruits of God's Spirit, but the overall theology is bankrupt. It has inspired a lot of argumentative, judgmental and self-righteous people who think that they are superior to all other Christians. And, although many of them may have never entertained the thought, it's very possible that they haven't got as much figured out as they think that they do (after all, Paul wrote that converted people see through a glass darkly).
And, as far as love is concerned, several of the commentators here might want to reread that entire thirteenth chapter of Paul's first letter to the Corinthians. Is intentional sarcasm consistent with kindness? Is boasting about one's righteousness consistent with Paul's definition?
The article goes on about the calander. All of the acog's have the wrong dates. From page 6, at the bottom in the footnotes we read:
8 : According to Morgenstern, 1965, p.111, until around 1000 BCE, almost all of the Western Semitic
peoples, notably the Canaanites used a calendar which “the authors of this study,” [i.e. Morgenstern
and his colleagues] called the “pentecontad calendar.” The calendar had agricultural features
considering “it was based primarily upon the successive stages of the annual crop.” As a result, the
year consisted of 365 days which were divided “into seven periods, each of fifty days, seven
pentecontads.” Thus, “each pentecontad consisted of seven weeks of seven days each, forty-nine days
in all, plus one day, at the very end of the seven weeks period, the fiftieth, and therefore the
concluding, day of the pentecontad.” A number designated each of the seven days of the pentecontad
week, “indicating the day’s position in the week” and “the seventh and final day of the week, however,
was designated, not by its number, ‘seventh day,’ but by its own specific name or title, Sabbat,
(‘Sabbath’),” which was a “day of abstention from all labor” and “a day of complete rest
(Morgenstern, 1965, p.111).
Retired, I remember a (United) Methodist youth retreat I went on one Saturday in June. The adults in charge tried to say "he should be served in the form" of.... popcorn and grape juice.
I resisted the suggestion of it. One of many reasons why I'm not a Methodist now.
I looked up some definitions of Phariseeism just to see what scholars said about it. Someone could easily characterize the Pharisees as a bunch of righteous zealots by overlooking some of their flaws. But clearly Christ did not see them this way. He saw them as the leaders of a continuing Jewish religious establishment that opposed the actions of God throughout Jewish history. And they did all this by seeming to be righteous - they clung to and weaponized the letter of he law while denying its larger intent and spirit.
In simple terms, Pharisees were nitpickers who opposed God - quite like our atheist fellows who are always straining at a gnat and hoping others will join them in their unsavory repast. Armstrongists and that ilk are the other category of pharisaical types. They have pitched their tents on the slopes of Mt. Sinai instead of the Mount of Olives. No wonder they don't like to talk about Jesus.
Note: Christ's reference to Abel and Zacharias is a placement of responsibility on a certain attitude. It is not a suggestion that Pharisees were actually physically present. Although it may be surprising to some, Jews actually knew quite a lot about their own history.
The true nature of Armstrongism is revealed in many of the reactions to this post. Notice that the thesis of my piece is that you can be a "good" Christian and celebrate Christmas or choose not to celebrate it. That notion is anathema to the true-believers who commented here - They have to be the only real Christians!
Miller Jones (1:21)
Well spoken. It is good that you point out that Armstrongists always feel they have the moral and theological high ground. This may just be their sole reward.
This comemnt was made in another post but was ment to be here. I suppost it fits in many of the post I see here.
This gets a little confusing when we try to address the original purpose. Why not recognize that everyone has a different view of things. We know the bible is the source of the Christian Faith. We know that everyone accepting Christ as Lord and Savior accepts it on Faith. This Faith requires a belief of the written word which points out that all human life is doomed to die. The NT points out that Jesus introduced a life after this life's death. It is qualifying for this hope that is disputed. I believe each individual has a personal responsibility to seeks God's help through fellowship and prayer. Anyone who attempts to convince they have the solution will cause problems. Each person should live their life as close as possible to the written word and show God's love to all people by the way they life rather than how they think they are living
Everyone does whatever they want to do for their own reasons, and then everyone pretends that they are “serving the Lord.”
This seems to work for them for now.
It might not work at all after Jesus returns.
Anon, January 11, 2020 at 11:26 AM, said:
"...John, Christ said 'woe to you scribes and Pharisees...' He did not say 'woe to you demons...' No questions are required to 'understand it.' You must be using the Wacko translation of the bible..."
******
AND NEO, January 11, 2020 at 1:45 PM, said:
"...Note: Christ's reference to Abel and Zacharias is a placement of responsibility on a certain attitude. It is not a suggestion that Pharisees were actually physically present. Although it may be surprising to some, Jews actually knew quite a lot about their own history..."
******
Jesus Christ was speaking to the evil spirit beings just as sure as He did to Satan in the following example:
Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Mark 8:33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
Earlier, Christ addressed Satan directly with those same words of: "Get thee behind Me."
Luke 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
And the attitude is that of Satan and his angels, who will eventually be taken and destroyed (Matthew 25:41, 46).
It appears that human beings may be easily taken captive by Satan:
"And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." 2 Tim 2:26
James understood it worked in the lives of Christians, including his own:
"...The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy..."
But, isn't lust and envy sin?
"He that committeth sin is of the devil;..." I John 3:8
It is the very reason that both of you cannot easily remove sin from your lives, and I am no exception either.
If you had such excellent repentance you would choose to stop sinning, and then choose to never sin again, but you can't do it; neither can I. Sin still exists in us like as Paul told us:
Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
And Paul had to tell us twice, in case we didn't get it:
Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Satan is a liar, and a murderer: the father of such things. For example, why did Cain kill Abel?
1 John 3:12 "Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother..."
Jesus Christ understood that He was not wrestling with flesh and blood, His brothers and sisters, but with certain principalities (Eph 6:12).
Believe it or not, but time will tell...
John
" Notice that the thesis of my piece is that you can be a "good" Christian and celebrate Christmas or choose not to celebrate it."
no Lonnie, you can't....if you don't care what God thinks then you can celebrate whatever you want...if you do care what God thinks, you will do as He says.
God gives His Spirit to those that obey Him, and those are the ones that care what He thinks.
Anonymous 1/12/2020 @ 6:17,
I stand corrected - you're obviously not a Christian.
Anon Jan 12 at 6:17am
I agree with what you said ... those that obey God are the ones who care what He thinks.
I do not see any problem with your statement.
You really need to get someone who makes such a statement to define it further. "Obey God" is a buzz phrase within the Armstrongite community, meaning you must do everything HWA taught. That's the way they judge people, whether they are Christian, and whether they are obeying God. HWA was one of many, many teachers, and much of what he taught is contested by by more learned scholars.
I saw parts of Jim Frank's sermon where he says that "historically"' the true church may be found "amongst" sabbath keepers, although they may not necessarily be so. Repeating "God knows his own" several times... (which reminded me of the crusaders at Beziers burning the entire population) although he didn't mean that.
In the same vein I might amend a former rigorous opinion and state that "true Christians" may be found "amongst" the Christmas keepers, although they may not necessarily be so.
Nck
" "Obey God" is a buzz phrase within the Armstrongite community, meaning you must do everything HWA taught."
HWA was not mentioned...HWA is not God....you are describing idolatry.
There is a lot of deceptive talk.
The vilest people around can do the vilest things around and still pretend that they are “serving the Lord.”
I've met devout Christians from mainstream churches in my workplace, and from I could discern, God was blessing them and answering their prayers. This makes sense to me. There's enormous confusion and deception in Christiandom, which God understands and makes allowance for. So if a deceived Christian sincerely believes that Sunday worship or Christmas is acceptable to God, He would not penalize the person for that behavior. However, and this is the big if, if that person is made aware of their error, and refuses to change, then God will stop answering that persons prayers. God expects Christians to follow Him rather than human traditions.
7:18, I hope you aren't implying that any regulars here are the vilest? Who could you possibly mean? The atheist? The homosexual? The biker? The Native American? The retired teacher? The construction worker? The black guy? Oh, crap! I get it! You think we're the Village People!
"So if a deceived Christian sincerely believes that Sunday worship or Christmas is acceptable to God, He would not penalize the person for that behavior."
that's why there is a resurrection after the millennium, so they can learn and understand the truth, and live according to God's instructions (if they so choose)...
if they do, they are on their way to the Kingdom...if not, they will cease to exist.
7:18,
Not sure where you are directing that comment. Certainly it applies to those in the COGs as well.
7:56,
If someone believes that the law was for the Nation of Israel (as the Jews believe- they generally do not believe the Law was given to Adam, Noah, or Abraham), then Christians that do not follow the Law written on stone and who have a good argument for not doing so, may well be following the Lord. At that point you will need to show in the Bible where it is wrong to sincerely celebrate Christ's birth (the angels rejoiced). The only possible way to do this is the pagan argument-- does it bring Christians toward paganism and false gods? I have not seen any Christians move closer to paganism when they sincerely celebrate Christ's birth, quite the contrary. COGWA in its article on Christmas primarily quotes a "pagan" author who dabbles in pagan practices to show pagan traditions in Christmas. This author does so in large part to discount Christmas celebration, but, the purpose is to also discount Christ and His birth. That is not the camp I want to be in.
There are many arguments that state the pagans applied their customs and dates onto a Christian previously-calculated December 25. As one commenter here consistently states,"show me the original sources that predate whatever it is you claim is predated, not an after the fact source in the middle ages."
Finally, intent matters. If sincere Christians are so adamant to show Christmas is not pagan it unquestionably shows a general mindset that is against paganism. That too is a good thing.
jim said, If someone believes that the law was for the Nation of Israel (as the Jews believe- they generally do not believe the Law was given to Adam, Noah, or Abraham),…
Not all Jews believe that. It so happens that the mainstream Jews are Orthodox who believe that only 7 (Noachide) laws are binding on non-Jews. Karaites, at least the ones I know, do not believe such. Yes, the sinai laws were given to the Israelites but they were supposed to be a light to the world. The messianic age will be characterized by worldwide observance of Torah.
Isa 11:9 … They will not hurt or destroy on all my holy mountain; for the earth will be full of the knowledge of YHVH as the waters cover the sea.
Zeph 3:9 … At that time I will change the speech of the peoples to a pure speech, that all of them may call on the name of YHVH and serve him with one accord.
Zech 8:20-23 … Thus says YHVH of hosts: Peoples shall yet come, the inhabitants of many cities; the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, “Come, let us go to entreat the favor of YHVH, and to seek YHVH of hosts; I myself am going.” Many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek YHVH of hosts in Jerusalem, and to entreat the favor of YHVH. Thus says YHVH of hosts: In those days ten men from nations of every language shall take hold of a Jew, grasping his garment and saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that Elohim is with you.”
Anonymous at 12:06 AM said...“7:18, I hope you aren't implying that any regulars here are the vilest? Who could you possibly mean? The atheist? The homosexual? The biker? The Native American? The retired teacher? The construction worker? The black guy? Oh, crap! I get it! You think we're the Village People!”
Never thought of it quite like that before, but now that you brought it up it might be hard to think of you Banned Village People in any other way.
;-)
"the village people"
What an astute observation!
When you play their record in reverse, you get "AC my" ....... of course.
Nck
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