Division is the New Unity
The theme at the WFW was "Unity" and I definitely felt unified with the brethren as I talked with old friends and made new acquaintances. There was a general sense among all the brethren I spoke to that all the competing churches of God are generally the same. (This would not include the personality cults like Pack and Flurry) But this was, as I expected, not going to be the message of unity that would come from COGWA HQ.
[WARNING: What follows is going to come across as very harsh and cynical but only because I believe the churches of God need a heavy dose of horribly tasting medicine and a prescription for a cure. Major "trigger warning" for those who love the church as I do but are still incapable of dealing with cognitive dissonance and facing reality.]
I have spent years in LCG being told at Feasts, winter weekends and must-plays from HQ that "We are NOT all the same!" All this did was prompt me to study and determine if this was actually true. I found most of the claims that made us different to be petty and the ones made that were seemingly important, I sometimes determined LCG to be the splinter in error. That being said, the cry for unity and all speaking the same thing from the ministry has always been a subjective cluster-
How much unity does it take to qualify to be unity until it's not and then there must be division for the sake of unity? If you ask the average member, it seems the bar is set much lower than those who claim to have the rule over them. The ministry would argue that such a low standard is set by lukewarm sheep. Maybe the standard is set too high by graceless shepherds concerned more about self-preservation.
In the very first seminar I sat in on, David Johnson made a not-so-veiled attack on 3 LCG teachings. The message was, don't go looking at LCG because:
1. They have an inordinate emphasis on the Ezekiel warning.
2. Dick Ames has a personalized version of the wedding supper. (Johnson tries to relate this to the rapture)
3. Doug Winnail thinks the "falling away" may be a general and global rejection of Western Civilization rooted in Christian ethics.
After this, came the usual threats and warnings of being deceived, even by "brethren" and family members (very unifying). He even concluded with a classic "Ames" tactic by shaming people who are not consuming organizational literature and webcast productions.
Regardless of one's position on those three points, what do they have to do with the gospel and the need for salvation?
Next up was a seminar by Joel Meeker who set up the classic straw man argument "proving" church government using Hebrews 10:25. He goes on to say that you must have a pastor and that we are commanded to attend holy convocations and have no choice. I haven't found any commanded assemblies in the New Covenant, Joel.
Joel then creates a list of "duties" for church administration and a list of "duties" for the members. He said the church is an organization and the organization organizes (brilliant). The church supports doctrine and protects us dummies from tricky men. When people leave the organization, it is always over "quarky" doctrine (I see what you did there, Joel). The church instructs, strengthens, comforts, encourages, protects, anoints and even provides physical needs because sheep faithfully tithe. Wow Joel! I guess when you put it that way, where would we be without you?
The duties of the sheep are to pray, study, fast, repent, think (how did that get in there) meditate, plan, and discern. This is where he took the time to flatter everyone in COGWA because they had the "spiritual discernment" to recognize UCG had "called good, evil and evil, good" and went with the holy men of COGWA who enacted division. He finished this list by warning us that everyone gets hurt by the church at some point but it is the duty of sheep to suck it up, persevere, watch your attitude and avoid a root of bitterness.
He concludes by attacking "those who would say that we [churches of god organizations] are all the same" using a real doozy of a straw-man argument. He goes to Revelation 2-3, points out they are all church of God and asks, does that mean you would not care which one you were in...that any one would do...are they all the same? (well played, Joel...well played) This obviously implies that the church really is an organization that we would call COGWA and to go sniffing around anywhere else would be spiritual suicide. Yep...unity be the theme.
Next up, the captain of the ship, Jim Franks. Let's see. The smack-down was already put on LCG and UCG. Who would be next?
Franks starts by asking what one body means and what does unity look like. Ever the masters of double-speak, he humbly claims not to know. And then, I kid you not, he references a class offered at their Foundation Institute that explains all the doctrinal differences between all the churches of God!
Take note: Barrett says division in the churches of God come particularly from those at the "center [HQ] of the organizations" and the "influential elite." Preaching unity to the laity, and most of the field ministers, is preaching to the choir. We get it better than you! Unity is a message that must be preached TO these HQ administrations, not BY these HQ administrations. “Divisions” in Jude 19 is APODIORIZO: which means, false teachers that cause division.
It's funny but, agree with him or not, at least Joe Tkach had fundamental change as reason for blowing up the cult. What are the reasons that Jim Franks, Gerald Weston, and Victor Kubik have for continuing to promote division? What fundamental, irreconcilable differences exist between them?
Jim Franks mentions that he read a new book on the history of the Worldwide Church of God. He didn't give the title but based on the sermon, I would guess he was referencing "The Fragmentation of a Sect: Schism in The Worldwide Church of God" written by David V. Barrett, PhD in Sociology. This caused him to wax nostalgically about the good ole days like when, for example, in 1967, the whole church was unified in praying God would heal Loma Armstrong (and then she died a week later). He said the church always had issues through the 60's, 70's, 80's and early 90's but "it was still one body!"
In a shaken voice, he described what it was like being bullied by the Tkach administration that was changing everything. When he told them he did not understand the new teachings, they told him to just preach it first and you will come to believe it later. He compared his firing to being put on a cattle train headed for Auschwitz! Is this the response you would expect from a man that fears God more than losing his paycheck? I have actually lost jobs or lost job opportunities because of the Sabbath and never once felt I was on my way to Auschwitz. It truly amazes me to see it on display, how earth-shattering it was for (some) ministers to face financial difficulty but make light of it when brethren have routinely lived it, often expressing great faith in going through it (even if misplaced). Who did you think you were, Elijah on the run for his life?! Maybe you felt like you were in a cattle train headed for Auschwitz because that is how the top down-hierarchical structure with a narcissist pope you thrived in, operated for decades.
He goes on to argue that in order for the church to be unified, it must be unified in doctrine, purpose and behavior. But his main emphasis was almost exclusively on doctrine as he took time to attack Tkach and the changes they made and attributing the reason for the changes was because the new WCG did not value truth. I thought, you may not have agreed with the changes but you cannot say the changes were because they did not value truth. What is truth? They certainly no longer valued Herbert Armstrong's truth, to be sure.
It is clear that to Jim Franks, unity is everyone in one corporate entity and he lays all the blame for all the splinters at the feet of Joe Tkach. But as I pointed out in my post, "Who Causes Division" David Barrett says all splits in WCG to the present various churches of God could only be caused and were caused by the ministry. On pages 208-209:
In a shaken voice, he described what it was like being bullied by the Tkach administration that was changing everything. When he told them he did not understand the new teachings, they told him to just preach it first and you will come to believe it later. He compared his firing to being put on a cattle train headed for Auschwitz! Is this the response you would expect from a man that fears God more than losing his paycheck? I have actually lost jobs or lost job opportunities because of the Sabbath and never once felt I was on my way to Auschwitz. It truly amazes me to see it on display, how earth-shattering it was for (some) ministers to face financial difficulty but make light of it when brethren have routinely lived it, often expressing great faith in going through it (even if misplaced). Who did you think you were, Elijah on the run for his life?! Maybe you felt like you were in a cattle train headed for Auschwitz because that is how the top down-hierarchical structure with a narcissist pope you thrived in, operated for decades.
He goes on to argue that in order for the church to be unified, it must be unified in doctrine, purpose and behavior. But his main emphasis was almost exclusively on doctrine as he took time to attack Tkach and the changes they made and attributing the reason for the changes was because the new WCG did not value truth. I thought, you may not have agreed with the changes but you cannot say the changes were because they did not value truth. What is truth? They certainly no longer valued Herbert Armstrong's truth, to be sure.
It is clear that to Jim Franks, unity is everyone in one corporate entity and he lays all the blame for all the splinters at the feet of Joe Tkach. But as I pointed out in my post, "Who Causes Division" David Barrett says all splits in WCG to the present various churches of God could only be caused and were caused by the ministry. On pages 208-209:
"But in a family of churches where top-down authority has always been the norm...members were expected to follow their ministers."
"...it is primarily ministers who have actively left one church to join or to found another, and in many cases they took their members with them."
"...it is a feature of established sects that schism comes only from the divisions among the influential elite within each movement; no other person is sufficiently influential to cause division..."
"Schism must thus be from the ministerial ranks, and in particular from those at the center of the organization; the laity are too receptive and docile (accustomed to obedience) to initiate schisms, and have no opportunity to preach heresy, or to challenge organizational arrangement."
Take note: Barrett says division in the churches of God come particularly from those at the "center [HQ] of the organizations" and the "influential elite." Preaching unity to the laity, and most of the field ministers, is preaching to the choir. We get it better than you! Unity is a message that must be preached TO these HQ administrations, not BY these HQ administrations. “Divisions” in Jude 19 is APODIORIZO: which means, false teachers that cause division.
It's funny but, agree with him or not, at least Joe Tkach had fundamental change as reason for blowing up the cult. What are the reasons that Jim Franks, Gerald Weston, and Victor Kubik have for continuing to promote division? What fundamental, irreconcilable differences exist between them?
Then, just like Johnson, in a spirit of unity, he laid out 3 differences between COGWA and COG7D that justifies being divided:
1. They reject British-Israelism
2. They reject the annual holy days
3. They believe it is "the" day of salvation instead of "a"
Again, I will let you decide if this is of any salvational consequence.
I want to conclude with some things Mark Winner said in his seminar because I believe it gets to the root problem with the churches of God. Mark says in order for us to be unified, we must be less interested in our own ideas and more interested in God's ideas. I have been around long enough to know that "God's ideas" is code for what HQ determines is God's ideas.
He went on to actually say at a Winter Family Weekend where unity was the theme, that "focusing on what we have more in common takes us away from what God would have us to know." Really, Mark? Focusing on what unifies us separates us from God?
The one thing I heard all week that rang most true is when Mark said "unity and arrogance cannot coexist." Well, God bless you, Mark! That is exactly why division will always be unity in the eyes of those beholden to a corporate business model.
Peter told the brethren to grow in the "grace and knowledge" of Jesus Christ. Because the Adventist Movement has been Gnostic from it's inception, it has an inordinate focus on knowledge (and foreknowledge) and has fallen flat on it's face concerning grace. Paul said if he had all knowledge and prophecy but had not love, he had nothing. Grace is the key ingredient needed for true unity because grace understands that everyone is not in the same place concerning knowledge at any given time. Each person is a unique library of knowledge and understanding unto themselves that grows daily. Knowledge "puffs up" in and by itself but grace allows people to be where they and others are in the learning process without judgment and condemnation. Grace is what enables us to work out our own salvation, individually. Grace is what makes way for us to dwell peaceably with all men and enjoy one another in a spirit of unity, despite which splinter we attend. And maybe most importantly, grace is what enables us to actually learn from someone else and God forbid, even change our minds.
Knowledge, even "right" knowledge, without grace can be a stumbling block for those looking to embrace that knowledge and can cause offence. You know what Jesus said about being offensive.
He went on to actually say at a Winter Family Weekend where unity was the theme, that "focusing on what we have more in common takes us away from what God would have us to know." Really, Mark? Focusing on what unifies us separates us from God?
The one thing I heard all week that rang most true is when Mark said "unity and arrogance cannot coexist." Well, God bless you, Mark! That is exactly why division will always be unity in the eyes of those beholden to a corporate business model.
Peter told the brethren to grow in the "grace and knowledge" of Jesus Christ. Because the Adventist Movement has been Gnostic from it's inception, it has an inordinate focus on knowledge (and foreknowledge) and has fallen flat on it's face concerning grace. Paul said if he had all knowledge and prophecy but had not love, he had nothing. Grace is the key ingredient needed for true unity because grace understands that everyone is not in the same place concerning knowledge at any given time. Each person is a unique library of knowledge and understanding unto themselves that grows daily. Knowledge "puffs up" in and by itself but grace allows people to be where they and others are in the learning process without judgment and condemnation. Grace is what enables us to work out our own salvation, individually. Grace is what makes way for us to dwell peaceably with all men and enjoy one another in a spirit of unity, despite which splinter we attend. And maybe most importantly, grace is what enables us to actually learn from someone else and God forbid, even change our minds.
Knowledge, even "right" knowledge, without grace can be a stumbling block for those looking to embrace that knowledge and can cause offence. You know what Jesus said about being offensive.
Did you notice in Joel's list of duties, the brethren are not to be easily offended and to suck it up but there was nothing about the administration having a duty to not be offensive? Christ has a stern warning for those who cause offence in Matthew 18.
In Matthew 20:25-28, Jesus provided the model necessary for the proper functioning of the church that would organically suppress the always-present effects of arrogance, greed and abuse. WCG, LCG, UCG and COGWA have all chosen to directly disobey Christ and establish organizations He specifically warned them against establishing.
The context of Jude is a stern warning to be on the lookout for false teachers and leaders that cause division for they (Verse 11) “have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit…” Add money to the mix and we now have a very toxic soup of arrogance, greed and abuse that largely goes unchecked every time you leave human power unchecked.
Again, I ask, what fundamental, irreconcilable differences exist between LCG, UCG, COGWA and even COG7D? In the business world, competitors often come from within an existing business where they learned the business. The competitor goes across the street and establishes a competing business that is fundamentally the same but with the "belief" that they are a little better or they have improved the product or service. There is no fundamental difference in the product or service, only the belief by the competition that they can perform the same service or produce the same product better or cheaper to increase profit margins. Every corporate entity is filled with a certain number of employees that believe they are better suited to lead and run the company. So they begin the climb of the corporate ladder or strike out across the street to compete.
And of course, the other driving factor to compete is the realization that the guy at the top is taking the largest cut, making money off the labor of those under him. There is nothing wrong with this per se, but is this something God would want as motivation in the "body of Christ?"
Businesses incorporate several methods to try and keep their best employees from becoming the competition or leaving to work for the competition. One of them are team building retreats. This is where the business throws a team-building party complete with seminars designed to propagandize and fun events to whip up endorphins in hopes that it will unify the help amongst themselves and with HQ while widening the gulf between the competition. By the time the retreat is over, it is hoped that those capable of competing are too happy to put in the work to compete and that they are convinced that the existing competition is inferior and not worthy of their effort.
Every business exists to get a certain percentage of your income in their pocket. Can you think of a business more lucrative than one that is able to siphon upwards of 30% or more from each customer's total income with no money-back guarantees, no product-performance expectations and the backing of a god who will rain down punishment on anyone who puts their hands to their corporate plow-share only to turn back? A business that is protected by the government, pays no taxes and is not required to make a profit, show a return on investment or present any positive fruits to justify existing?
The unbiblical structure of the organizations and the unbiblical collection of tithes is supported by a false unity rooted in the arrogance of special knowledge. A ministry dependent on money will always market division as unity to protect the corporate entity. The church is not a business to be owned and controlled by wolves on Wall Street but that is what Herbert created; his own Information Marketing business cloaked in his own personalized Bible-speak. That cannot and never will fulfill the definition of the "body of Christ."
So the COGWA business retreat was fantastic. I got an endorphin fix from the fellowship. The adult beverages flowed late into every night, including the sabbath. As far as the seminars go, I have no clue how successful they are on the brethren. What I hope is only few brethren are making their decisions on which COG to attend based on petty doctrinal differences. It is more probable those decisions are (nowadays) locally oriented and being based on where family members are, where friends are, where kids are so that our kids have friends. Who is providing more opportunities for the kids and who is throwing the best parties. I think this is blow-back from years of forcing brethren to live in a continuous state of urgency, never allowing people to be apart of life "out there." Never allowing us to take root in our communities, build church halls and actually have opportunities to love our neighbors.
Future seminars, sermons and feast messages will try to convince us making corporate decisions based on that kind of criteria is Laodicean or worse, showing ones self to be a "tare among the wheat." Whatever. The messages were disappointing as expected. I just didn't expect them to be that so blatantly bad! But I wonder. Does this show how "puffed up" and obnoxiously confident they are in the "unity" they have manufactured or does it expose just how fearful they are of the statistics showing the movement is continuing to dwindle with deaths out-pacing births, with no new prospects and the next generation saying, "I'm out"?
Either way, I expect the ante to continue to rise. More corporate retreats will be implemented with bigger and better bells and whistles. More camps, more dances, more adult beverages. Maybe a Hezekiah-type declaration to keep the Feast for two weeks! We are witnessing a church of God "Cold War" to see who will out-spend the competition to sop up the remaining tithe-payers of a dying movement. The winner will be the corporate entity that gives back the most dollars they whored for.
My advice: The failing business model of post-Herb splinters don't need a "prophet" (sorry, Bob). They need "The Profit" Marcus Lemonis, who rescues small businesses on CNBC because you are definitely not the body of Christ. That distinction is reserved for those spirit-led individuals that exemplify fruits of the Holy Spirit, always precluding organization. Dr. Meredith used to yell, "You can't put God in a box!" It's true! And yet, WCG and all the splinters have been trying to lay the body of Christ to rest in corporate coffins for decades. Hello?
by Stoned Stephen Society
59 comments:
Joel Meeker was a minister in the Global Church of God, then in the Church of God, a Christian Fellowship, then in UCG, then in COGWA. How many times has he rebelled against the guidance of the pastors who oversee him? Yet somehow brethren aren't supposed to do what Joel has done?
The time is soon coming when massive numbers of Church of God brethren will "mark" those who cause division among them, mostly meaning THE MINISTRY, and will join together in fellowship despite the objections of the corporate church hierarchies. The hierarchies will wither, but hireling ministers will learn to change their tune and seek to ingratiate themselves with unified brethren. Let's hope that the brethren see through the false faces of the hirelings and instead return to a model of first-century Christianity that emulates Ephesus and Philadelphia, loving and serving all the brethren rather than scorning those who prefer a pasture different from their own.
SSS - if you really believe the basic doctrines, then get together with others and form local churches that have their own buildings.
Follow the Big Sandy COG model - which some non COG groups do as well.
You can have local events and get togethers - and if you want regional or national, work with the other groups for common meeting places.
Of course it does mean you need to find people who can provide leadership without needing to be bigshots.
“There was a general sense among all the brethren I spoke to that all the competing churches of God are generally the same. (This would not include the personality cults like Pack and Flurry)”
People tend to be Laodicean in this church era. Not good, but it could be even worse.
David Pack and Gerald Flurry are different. They are clearly satanic. SATANIC makes LAODICEAN appear to be good by comparison. SATANIC Flurry made even the APOSTATE Tkaches appear to be downright reasonable and decent when compared to the evil that he did.
“I haven't found any commanded assemblies in the New Covenant, Joel.”--by Stoned Stephen Society
What is your favorite drug that your Society usually likes to get stoned on?
Go find your Bible, blow the dust off it, and read it for once.
Remember that in the New Testament, Jesus was always going up to Jerusalem to observe God's commanded annual festivals such as the Feast of Tabernacles.
In fact, Jesus told his apostles to remain in Jerusalem, where the Holy Spirit came upon them on the Day of Pentecost to start the New Testament church.
Eusebius in The Church History mentions the apostle John, and his disciple Polycarp, and his disciple Polycrates all observing the Passover on the 14th day of the first month.
The fact is that if church people do not work together as a unified team, and assemble together for the weekly Sabbaths and annual festivals, they will end up all divided and totally ineffective.
It has been my experience that when a COG group begins to hyper focus on "unity", it is a clear indication that there is definite disunity among the ranks. It is sad to see this in COGWA though, because for many it has become the default organization to fellowship or attend with because at least in the early years of the group, such emphasis on "my group is the best because..." was downplayed, and people from a variety of backgrounds and who had been hurt or damaged in other groups felt comfortable there.
I was also present at the WFW this year, and while I had some issues with most of the messages outlined above, I felt Joel Meeker's message was particularly troubling, and caused me to experience deja vu of my days in LCG. The whole "you made the right decision" speech and the message of "suck it up, cause we've all been hurt" smacked of both arrogance as well as a lack of empathy for someone else's pain and suffering. It also displayed the general state of disconnect that exists between the "clergy" and the "laity" of most of these organizations. It is too bad though, because for many I know COGWA is their last hold out after experiencing abuse, pain, suffering, and disillusion in other organizations. To put it like someone else told me recently, she said "I like COGWA because they don't attack or talk badly about the other organizations." It seems that this statement is no longer true, and will not bode well for the organization in the long run, because it essentially makes them just like all the others. None of these men seem to be able to grasp the concept that if you want to be viewed as "Philadelphian" you must show an attitude of love and humility, rather than one of boasting and arrogance.
There is also a rising issue that will ultimately affect all the COGs, and that is the views of the younger generation within these groups. These kids have been yanked and pulled in every direction by their parents and others as people have been forced to repeatedly switch groups and allegiances. They have been splintered to the point that they are crossing cog lines in order to fellowship with others their own age who at least have a semblance of their own experiences and basic beliefs, and they are finding that to a large degree the differences between the groups has been overblown by the powers that be, and amounts in many cases to issues of personality, grudge holding, and playground squabbles. It is difficult to sit and listen to speeches on "unity" when the church movement you have grown up in is anything but unified. They can smell the hypocrisy. Many of the younger generation think nothing of crossing corporate lines and attending social functions across those lines. They are forming their own networks and connections whether their elders like it or not. They are also questioning and beginning to challenge traditional church stances on everything from interracial marriage to music to the way church services are done. They are sitting with their smart phones and computers and the most up to date Bible software available and they are fact checking. They are no longer willing to just take some guy's word for it, and they are not buying an appeal to "tradition" if that tradition cannot be backed up Biblically. Some have given up all together and are exiting the bigger groups, while others are biding their time with the knowledge that the days of the old guard are numbered, and sooner or later they will have the opportunity to make the changes they think need to be made. The older generation is threatened by this and there is stress and friction beginning to form. These older people feel that the battles they fought are not appreciated, the traditions they hold dear are not respected, and the walls they have built are being dismantled. It has them a bit rattled, and it shows.
Concerned Sister
“Is Division the New Unity?”
Shortly after the apostate Tkaches did their Great Apostasy of 1995 and blew up the WCG into little tiny splinters, Norman S. Edwards, the “leader of the leaderless Independents,” was probably the happiest he had ever been in his entire life. The thought of everyone each going their own way and making up their own beliefs thrilled him. He really hated unity and loved division.
To 6:15 PM - you are confusing Joel Meeker's COG history
with his father, George. Joel grew up in WCG, moved to UCG in 1995 and COGWA in 2011.
Foundation Institute: is it in reality Cogwarts?
It's just magical!
VonHowitzer
David Barrett conclusions are based on his secondhand research. He has no firsthand experience of WCG.
He has nothing on Ron Darts analysis of the splits.
"The church always splits up over these reasons; power, money, sex and the fact ministers do not like each other.
The members only know 10% of what goes on"
Concerned Sister at 8:15 PM said...“The whole 'you made the right decision' speech and the message of 'suck it up, cause we've all been hurt' smacked of both arrogance as well as a lack of empathy for someone else's pain and suffering. It also displayed the general state of disconnect that exists between the 'clergy' and the 'laity' of most of these organizations. It is too bad though, because for many I know COGWA is their last hold out after experiencing abuse, pain, suffering, and disillusion in other organizations.”
If the other organizations were really so bad, and caused so much abuse, pain, suffering, and disillusion (and I do believe that they were bad, and that they did cause much abuse, pain, suffering, and disillusion!!!), then why would it be wrong for COGWA to point out their differences and warn people about them?
--Concerned about False Sisters
Concerned Sister at 8:15 PM said...“To put it like someone else told me recently, she said 'I like COGWA because they don't attack or talk badly about the other organizations.' It seems that this statement is no longer true, and will not bode well for the organization in the long run, because it essentially makes them just like all the others.”
The Church has a commission to preach the “gospel of the kingdom of God” to the whole world as a witness to all nations before the end of this age comes.
The Church also has a responsibility to warn the US and Britain of coming national punishment if they do not repent of their ever-increasing sins. This is the “Ezekiel warning message.” If you think that this is “attacking” these nations or the people in them, then there is something wrong with your thinking.
Surely the Church also has a responsibility to warn its members, for their own good, about all the heretical apostates, absolutely vicious false prophets, confused rebels, and other bad characters that Satan is sending against them in this age. If you say that the Church must keep quiet about what is going on, then you are really just helping the Adversary to do his work.
There is such a thing as comparative religious studies. People go over the various different beliefs of different religions. What makes you think that this is wrong? Is everyone supposed to remain totally ignorant of what the different churches believe and how they behave?
Why do some women always want to yap and yap and yap so foolishly and try to tell the Church that it must not say anything against Satan's imposter cults and what they are up to or else it will be just like them?
False Sister, there is something seriously wrong with your mind!
Concerned Sister you are a liar. You have never been in LCG. You are high ranking in UCG.
"his firing to being put on a cattle train headed for Auschwitz!"
Puhlease ............is Jim Franks related to Anne's in any way?
No? Then do not EVER make that comparison again my friend!
nck peace out
Well ok perhaps a bit harsh on Franks. Franks seems to identify closely with those persecuted for religion in Rhode Island from Massachusets. He also confirmed the (1979) pastoral salary Dennis speaks about that made him elligible for food coupons back in the day when pastoring at Stephen Mumfords old habitat.
nck
Stoned Stephen seems to assess the history of Quibble Town (or Squabble Town) Piscataway New Jersey (Now Newmarket) which was named that way for the disputes and arguments amongst the baptists THEMSELVES over which day was the sabbath.
nck
"spiritual discernment" to recognize UCG had "called good, evil and evil, good" and went with the holy men of COGWA who enacted division.
The COGWA "leaders" of the split were blatant liars when they told their congregations that UCG was about to institute protestant teachings. They were just wanted to be the big dogs ruling over a new splinter group.
The disturbing thing is that most people who joined COGWA just blindly followed the greedy lying minster. If these members really had the judgment to tell good from evil, they would have told their minster to go pound sand.
The Bible clearly condemns those to cause division. These fake minsters didn't follow Christ's example of serving and humility. They instead followed the sick example of the ego driven Armstrongs and the brainwashed lieutenants they bred in Pasadena.
Anonymous 1/8/2020 @ 10:41 and 11:22,
I believe that Concerned Sister's observations about unity within the ACOG culture are spot-on! And it is more of that misguided nostalgia or revisionism to suggest that unity was ever achieved in the parent body (Worldwide Church). Unity cannot be imposed from above, and it can only be achieved by taking into account that real differences exist among any population - differences that have to be respected.
Most traditional Armstrongists are willing to challenge anything and everybody that does not agree with their belief system, but they refuse to entertain the possibility that they might be wrong. She also hits the proverbial nail on the head with her comments about the youth of the ACOG culture. The young folks see the narcissistic, misogynistic, racist and homophobic tendencies of the older folks and shudder at their blindness! If they continue on that path, the movement will be completely extinct within a few short years (fortunately, the future does not belong to the sixty-plus age group!). Even so, it's not too late for you - God is always willing to forgive those who are willing to reconsider and repent.
Concerned Sister at 8:15 PM said...“I was also present at the WFW this year, and while I had some issues with most of the messages outlined above, I felt Joel Meeker's message was particularly troubling, and caused me to experience deja vu of my days in LCG. The whole 'you made the right decision' speech and the message of 'suck it up, cause we've all been hurt' smacked of both arrogance as well as a lack of empathy for someone else's pain and suffering. It also displayed the general state of disconnect that exists between the 'clergy' and the 'laity' of most of these organizations. It is too bad though, because for many I know COGWA is their last hold out after experiencing abuse, pain, suffering, and disillusion in other organizations. To put it like someone else told me recently, she said 'I like COGWA because they don't attack or talk badly about the other organizations.' It seems that this statement is no longer true, and will not bode well for the organization in the long run, because it essentially makes them just like all the others. None of these men seem to be able to grasp the concept that if you want to be viewed as 'Philadelphian' you must show an attitude of love and humility, rather than one of boasting and arrogance.”
So you do not want COGWA to tell anyone to “suck it up” and “just get over it” about the abuses in the other organizations, but neither do you want COGWA to warn anyone about the problems with the other organizations.
What is wrong with your head, woman (or guy on the Internet posing as a woman, or transgender person, or whatever)?
Can you explain clearly, without contradictions, what you think COGWA should do?
Had I known Steven that you were going to the WFW, I would have went with you, but I see that you don't need anyone to hold your hand.
Truth, unity, doctrine is a awful hard cocktail for a WFW. I was wanting to hear who built the most amazing snowman and instead those senseless ministers were not playing by the rules again and were off in a dark corner constructing more unneeded straw-men.
Life is certainly a learning experience and the COG experience has been a wonderful teacher of many things right and a whole lot of things wrong. I have witnessed a wonderful example of "growing in grace and knowledge" by many in the membership through the years by fiat alone. The onerous COG government system which prohibits out of the box thinking has been a great hindrance to this fact but people are figuring it out or are being led to figure it out.
With the fact of looking back 34 years and understanding that HWA didn't biblically fulfill Matt. 24:14 means the first domino falls against any continuing COG construct that thinks they are maintaining something truthfully established. So the unity and doctrinal purity and truth that COGWA and others are demanding of the brethren is classic putting new wine in old wine-skins. The membership which has grown spiritually through the great tribulations of the COGs are the new wine and the old wine-skin is the wrinkled system of a forgone era.
The Methodist's just figured it out themselves when they agreed to a arbiter's decision of the liberal membership getting 20,000,000 dollars to go and do their own thing and the conservatives keep the existing land and buildings.
The end is going to be a lot better than the beginning. COGWA and the other COGs still think everything better only comes from suckling off of their most glorious and golden tit.
Ok, I will bottom line it...
Its about WHO is controlling the money. If there was no "central money collector" a lot of this nonsense and hypocrisy would go away.
If there were only volunteer ministry, elected locally, and on perhaps a "renewed elected basis" every so many years (in other words, no pay, and not "ordained for life") , you would have only the truly motivated and accountable in the office.
These two proposals, with money being the primary one, would eliminate 90% of the "Unity" issues.
Concerned Sister
You have been nowhere near any COGWA WFW. You tell outrageous lies. No one let alone any female has discussed COGWA with you. You may think this is funny and amusing. But i can assure you this website is being monitored constantly by all the different COG HQ groups, UCG included.
You post here to cause trouble and dark mischief for others.Why? Do you have no memory you forget how others helped you in previous years.
Concerned Sister
Americans do not use the term "clergy". British use that expression.
From the Silenced website:
Crisis and Split
A decision to move the Church’s home office to Texas was rescinded in 2008, causing considerable tension within and between the Council of Elders and the General Conference of Elders. In 2009, two members of the Council of Elders resigned. This included then-president Clyde Kilough, whose resignation was effective July 28th, 2009, and Richard Thompson, effective July 27th, 2009. Personal reasons were cited by both members. In 2010, disunity started to tear UCG apart.
An anonymous blogger going by the handle ‘Abigail Cartwright’ launched a blog entitled UCG Current Crisis leaking insider information surrounding a spat amongst UCG leadership that lead to the ouster of then-president Clyde Kilough. This was information being purposely suppressed by the ministry, even by those who disagreed with the official propaganda being distributed to the masses, out of fear of losing their jobs. The blog contended with issues regarding censorship, baseless rumors, and outright lies being perpetrated by ministers, elders and laymembers alike within the church.
Essentially, Abigail Cartwright’s revelations single-handedly led to a massive schism within UCG. The posting of internal GCE and presidential emails and letters revealed the controversy surrounding the cancellation of plans to relocate the church’s home office to Denton, Texas and a disagreement between factions over whether to concentrate media projects on the internet or on cable television. The letters also revealed an increasing paranoia on the part of the newly-elected ‘interim’ UCG president Dennis Luker, who comes off as a vindictive, emotionally unbalanced and untrustworthy leader who fired ministers and staffers based on even the slightest rumor of disloyalty.
Luker, in response to growing unease from most of UCG’s ministry, fired all of the regional pastors and put a ‘trinity’ of Roy Holiday, Victor Kubik and himself in charge of all the daily operations of the church.
Those who knew about the corruption and scandal, aka the reasons why their ministers were losing their jobs left and right, officially split on January 8, 2011 along with 75 percent of UCG’s ministry, taking 5,000 members from their fold and forging a new organization, Church of God a Worldwide Association, essentially resurrecting WCG in name.
The aftermath of the schism quickly revealed the reasons why UCG pushed out so many dissenters and abolished their presence in Latin America, Africa and other third world countries. COGWA is now saddled with funding these poor congregations, has no media projects, and now there are no dissenters against Holiday, Luker, and Kubik. By failing to fight for their church, the dissenters in COGWA essentially surrendered the future of UCG, most of whose members still have no concept of what the split was truly about: their tithe money, who gets to spend it and on what.
Most people who left did so based on an emotional response to the posts made on UCG Current Crisis, which were presented sans commentary or context from Abigail Cartwright. This was one of the few occasions when COG members got to think for themselves, however armed with only the partial facts, they made a decision that has left both organizations weaker than ever before.
In 2011, UCG had roughly 5,000 of its members split from the church over disputes over leadership, a home office move, the Latin American and African congregations, and the perceived hostile takeover of Dennis Luker and his allies of the organization’s leadership reins.
I think you are sorely mistaken about Mr. Meeker's association with Global and COG, a Christian Fellowship. Would he join any church associated with Rod Meredith knowing full well the man's reputation? And FYI, he is not a hireling, pastoring churches in French-speaking Africa located in areas which are difficult and dangerous to visit. Read his travel blog sometime; you just might learn something instead of trying to criticize someone about whom you know very little.
“Concerned Sister” wants to prevent and shut down any discussion of the differences between the various groups.
If she/he/it gets her/his/its way, then “Tonto” will never be able to learn the difference(s), if any, between the UCG and COGWA.
Concerned Sister
There's no such thing as privacy when it comes to criminal behaviour. Unless crimes are exposed and condemned, they get worse and are repeated. Which is the virtue of current affair TV programs. This isn't attacking or talking badly of people.
Unity is a consequence, not a primary, such as honesty. So preaching unity can only mean that everyone fake reality, pretending to believe the same things, plus it gives the ministers the pretext to lord it over members. After all, unity trumps members rights according to these churches. Which is why unity was a major theme in the former Soviet union. Herb and friends stole from the comrades.
I have not seen misogyny rear its ugly head so high on this forum before.
It was Larry Salyer (now retired) who moved from WCG to GCG to COGaCF to UCG to COGWA.
Anonymous at 11:05 AM said...“I have not seen misogyny rear its ugly head so high on this forum before.”
So if anyone simply points out what the other COGs believe and do, they are suddenly as bad as them?
So if anyone disagrees with some anonymous, gender-unknown person's crazy comment, they are suddenly a misogynist?
So if anyone else says anything, they are suddenly somehow bad?
These are all very interesting mind games being played by the wicked who serve Satan the Devil!
Dr. Meredith used to yell, "You can't put God in a box!" It's true!
Once again, Rod Meredith was wrong. You can put God in a box. Joseph of Arimathea did put God in a box. What you cannot do is keep God in a box!
For all those who think I am a man or transgender or whatever... That's funny. If you want to believe a transgender man from the UCG hierarchy is the one who posted the above comment, that's your prerogative. My issue with how this argument was presented in Mr. Meeker's seminar was that it came across like yet another Church of God group waving it's own flag while "warning" those in its audience to stay away from people in other groups. I don't know Mr. Meeker personally, nor am I trying to make a judgement about his motives. I am simply giving my own perception of his speech and comparing it to many similar speeches I have heard in other cog groups, particularly LCG. It was as if he had borrowed their script and was using it for his own speech.
Any time a minister from an organization begins going through Revelation 2 and 3 and pointing out that you wouldn't want to fellowship or attend with "those" congregations, while at the same time assuring people in his audience that they made the right choice by being where they are is making a judgement about other people that I am no longer willing to make, because within all of these groups are individuals. Individuals who are doing the best they can to obey God in the circumstances they are in and with the knowledge they have, whether that knowledge is accurate or not. I was not around during the split between United and COGWA. I was busy dealing with issues in a completely different group, and while I no longer attend with that group, I still count many within that group as brethren, and I would not hesitate to fellowship with any of them should the opportunity arise. Most of us are well aware of differences among the groups. I spent many years being told by LCG ministers exactly what the differences were between them and UCG, as well as others. I was also "warned" that I wouldn't want to fellowship with those God considers Laodiceans. That by the way would have included everyone I fellow-shipped with at COGWA's winter weekend, including Mr. Meeker. The problem is, everyone has their own side of the story, and it becomes very difficult to know who among these competing factions to believe for the average church goer, and if you choose to go there, you run the risk of sounding just like the ones you are trying to warn others against.
Also, his comments about people who would hesitate to join his group based on past hurts they have had in other groups came across as uncaring and dismissive, and lacked any sort of empathy for what someone else might have been through. There is a reason many people no longer trust the ministry, and his comments did not help his case. Whether you like it or not, the baggage other people carry from past experiences is going to influence and inform the decisions they make now. You may not like this or think it's fair, but that's the way it is.
concerned Sister
10.28 AM
Your writeup on UCG fails to explain why their articles are presently flat. Someone under orders, is deliberately editing their publications to ensure that this is the case. Which means that your explanation for the split is unsatisfactory. Your explanation is the effect, rather than the cause.
Judging them by their fruits, the foxes are in charge of the hen house. The UCG is the Spiritually Fallen Asleep church of God. Bring a sleeping bag and cushion to their church services.
What so many seem to have over looked is the fact that this wfw is nothing more than a winter solstice celebration. Where are we told in scripture to do this I must have missed this. This is pagan cogwa and the rest of the cog corporations are trying to be just like the world, Do they think they are fooling the Fathe?. When it says come out of her my people Christ says that for a reason. The next thing that they will say its ok to put up a tree as long as you do it tasefully. Isiaih 56, 10 - 12 seems to sum up what cogwa is and it rightly calls the leadership dogs. There are some here in Roanoke that stand fast aginst this watering down of every doctorine that scripyure plainly teaches.
I'm hearing that at least one COGWA minister kept track of which members skipped Winter Family Weekend, and is asking them why they stayed away.
For some members, it's a matter of work commitments. Others see how WFW looks like Xmas-keeping, and avoid it for that reason.
But the fact that a Pastor kept score, considering the big crowd in Louisville, makes COGWA feel a bit like 80s-era WCG.
One reason we don't use evergreen tree branches as decoration is because it appears to be Christmas to the world.
One reason I won't go to WFW is it appears to be Christmas to the world.
So Anon 11:05 your admitting you know Concerned Sister is indeed female?
You are NOT a transgender man from UCG hirearchy. STRAWMAN argument concerned sister.
No-one said UCG hirearchy. You deliberatly try and decive.
I wrote high ranking in UCG which indeed you are.
A high ranking UCG Pastors wife. Using UCG applemac laptops and UCG paid for Office to blog bare faced lies from.
Shame on you.
Shame on everyone who knows you do this and do not stop you.
What happened to respecting and protecting Concerned Sisters right to anonymity?
I'm surprised that 3.32 AMs post was allowed.
Feastgoer said...
I'm hearing that at least one COGWA minister kept track of which members skipped Winter Family Weekend, and is asking them why they stayed away.
-------------------------
If asked, bust him in the face.
Feastgoer at 9:42 PM said...“I'm hearing that at least one COGWA minister kept track of which members skipped Winter Family Weekend, and is asking them why they stayed away.”
Ideally, all the little sheeple in COGWA should stay away from the Winter Family X-mass Weekend nonsense. They should VOTE with their feet by not going to it. They should be ashamed of their leaders for bragging that the Winter Family X-mass Weekend is COGWA's next largest meeting after the Feast of Tabernacles.
Then those useless and wicked COGWA leaders who are trying to lead the little sheeple into sin would be forced to repent, or at least to pretend to repent.
Then those useless and wicked COGWA leaders would not be able to pretend that they are putting on the Winter Family X-mass Weekend celebration for the people.
Then those useless and wicked COGWA leaders would not be able to pretend that they observe the Winter Family X-mass Weekend because they fear the people, and thereby put the blame on the people.
I'm glad you brought up COGWA, because I feel like something must be going on. There was something I wanted to write about, but it didn't feel quite right for As Bereans Did. It's not really a doctrinal issue. It may be picky, but I think it needs to be mentioned. It's just... weird.
I ran across pictures from one of their winter youth camps. The camper shirts have "25 years" printed across the bottom. And there is no universe in which this is true.
COGWA, by their own admission, was incorporated in December 2010. December 2010 to December 2019 is 9 years, not 25.
If they are trying to roll in all the years that these pastors served at UCG camps, after the WCG/UCG split, that would put them at the summer of 1995, maybe 1996. I honestly can't remember if UCG did any summer camps that the first summer. I served at a couple UCG camps later on. But those shirts definitely did not say "COGWA" youth camps.
And even if they did try to roll in those UCG camps, and there were camps in the summer of 1995, you still only come to 24.5 years by December 2019. Maybe less, depending upon when camps actually got up and running. Maybe that's close enough, if you buy the tripe of rolling in the UCG years.
So what is COGWA's goal here? Who are they trying to prove something to with this "25 years" business?
It can't be the ministry. They were instrumental in spearheading all the splits, as this article mentioned. They are keenly aware of the dates.
It can't be the long-time members. I expect they, like many of us, mentally measure segments of their lives by the splits, by who was still with them at certain milestones, and who had vanished from their lives, thanks to the wranglings of these men. I suspect they know it hasn't been 25 years.
My only guess is COGWA may be trying to establish legitimacy with newer families. They may not know the sad, manipulated timeline of this group. 25 years is kind of a base number for a church or youth program to maybe have a track record. As a parent, I want to know a group has a some legitimacy before I send my kid off, away from my supervision, for a week with them. If this is what they're trying to do, it bothers me.
Or maybe it is aimed at these poor kids, wanting to make them feel like they are participating in a normal youth program at a normal church. Which also bothers me. The dysfunction and trauma of splits is the only thing that might get the attention of kids raised to think this environment is normal. So let's whitewash over that ugly history by claiming a fabricated start date, and slap it on a sweatshirt to make it official!
In that case, why not count all the way back to SEP in WCG? 50 years sure sounds better than 25 years.
Maybe it's petty, but it just feels "off" to me. I've been in areas where they counted COG or member "anniversaries" but they were always careful not to print an organization on coffee mugs, trinkets, whatever. It feels disingenuous for a group that boldly claims to have an exclusive corner on truth and hints that all others shade it.
So anyway, I'm cool with COGWA continuing their WFW tradition next year. Might I suggest they add a math seminar to the schedule?
Whoever concerned sister is, it sounds like you believe she must follow the company line. That is concerning.
Out of respect, I've refrained from commenting on this thread, because mostly people currently in the ACOGs have been doing the commenting, and, guys, these are your churches, a big part of your life. It would appear that you've got quite a number of challenges facing you, and I wish you the best in working them all out. If Armstrongism is to achieve any sort of permanency, it will gradually evolve into a new, more universal phase, shedding the earlier cultic aspects of its founders, and perhaps looking more like other parts of the Adventist movement, such as the SDAs, and COG-7. There may be considerable turmoil and fragmenting presently, but perhaps as the young ones who remain, (modern day Bereans?) checking everything out with their iphones and Bible software, will begin to drive this in new directions once the Ambassador-educated control freaks have died off. Whether this includes finally acknowledging the errors associated with prophecy (the aspect which has attracted members and has driven the church) remains to be seen. One would hope that twenty years from now, a typical daily Kodak moment will be dominated by members concentrating on living lives based on Christian ethics and living precepts, an exemplary life applying the same standards to people on the outside as to people on the inside, and not worrying about prophecy. Understanding of prophecy was always claimed, but as the movement has involved, it has become clear that that is perhaps the weakest area of the church.
Good luck!
BB
I'm amused at the people who get their feathers ruffled over any of the groups hosting a Winter Family Weekend. This practice goes back many, many years when large gatherings during the winter breaks from school were held in Amarillo, TX and later Big Sandy, TX. The gyms used aren't decorated for Xmas though hotels that are used decorate their lobbies or restaurants, probably starting in late November. McDonald's, Wendy's, etc. also decorate if their managers/owners want it.
And to Martha (1/10, 6:28 AM) - perhaps your math skills need a tweak? 1995-2019 of continuous Winter Camps (beginning with UCG, continuing with much of that same staff in COGWA) = 25 years. Why impute motives to why they're celebrating this milestone? Don't congregations often celebrate these milestones even if they started in WCG?
Maybe the COGWA T-shirts are a testimony to the "25 years to life" prison sentence that former Y.O.U. director Kevin Owen Dean received??
One more thing popped into my mind. If we apply a beer metaphor to the Armstrong movement, then somewhere back in the '90s, the splinters which evolved would be analogous to the craft beers and microbreweries, as would the independents to home brewing. These tinker with the basic formula, tweeking the ingredients, times and temps in search of the optimum taste and function. But, it's also informative to consider Coca Cola. The originator of Coca Cola used cocaine as part of their formula, just as HWA had included certain ideas and practices in the original brew of his religion which were discovered later to be very harmful to the health of those who imbibed original, old-school Armstrongism. Food (or beverage) for thought!
BB
BB
I have pondered your 7.42 AM point for years. My conclusion is that HWA knew that 'certain ideas and practices' were harmful from the very beginning. He knew for instance. that a control freak ministry is unbiblical and wrong. Humans are very vocal, so he would have had ample feedback from his victims.
People fall in love with, and are mentally trapped by their sins. God expects people to fight their way out, but sadly, they don't.
Ok, like I said, it's possible I'm being picky. Although I was at a winter camp in the December 1994 and it was definitely WCG, not COGWA. And in December of 1995, and it was definitely UCG. COGWA was more than a decade away at that point.
I have been in congregations where they celebrated milestone anniversaries. Although the only ones I remember actually using the official logo/seal was a 5th year UCG anniversary, which actually was numerically and organizationally correct. Maybe people are more flexible with numbers elsewhere. Although we still haven't quite hit 25 years since UCG's founding in the spring of 1995.
And regardless, we DEFINITELY haven't hit 25 years since COGWA was founded. We haven't even hit 10.
Why question motives? Because leaders of COGWA have shown themselves willing to manipulate people and narratives to suit their needs.
http://asbereansdid.blogspot.com/2015/01/social-media-pays-cogwa-calculated.html
http://asbereansdid.blogspot.com/2011/01/cog-worldwide-association-claims-false_29.html
http://asbereansdid.blogspot.com/2011/01/cog-worldwide-association-claims-false.html
Scripture warns us about shepherds who divide the flock, among other behaviors. We should live by faith, but keep our eyes wide open, too.
Anonymous January 9, 2020 at 7:12 PM said: "What so many seem to have over looked is the fact that this wfw is nothing more than a winter solstice celebration. Where are we told in scripture to do this I must have missed this. This is pagan cogwa and the rest of the cog corporations are trying to be just like the world, Do they think they are fooling the Fathe?. When it says come out of her my people Christ says that for a reason. The next thing that they will say its ok to put up a tree as long as you do it tasefully. Isiaih 56, 10 - 12 seems to sum up what cogwa is and it rightly calls the leadership dogs. There are some here in Roanoke that stand fast aginst this watering down of every doctorine that scripyure plainly teaches."
Anonymous Feastgoer January 9, 2020 at 9:42 PM said: "...Others see how WFW looks like Xmas-keeping, and avoid it for that reason."
Anonymous January 9, 2020 at 10:21 PM said: "...One reason I won't go to WFW is it appears to be Christmas to the world."
I've said it before I'll say it again. So is it immoral to hold a non-religious social event or function with others, including family, friends and/or members of a religious organization, at anytime throughout the year (eg early summer, midsummer, late summer, early fall, midfall, late fall, etc) besides associating with each other during the religious occasions observed by the religious organization? I’m surprised, if it’s not immoral, at all the judgment against those Armstrongist organizations holding such a function during winter that coincides with the non-Armstrongist religious occasion of Christmastide proceeding from some who sound like James Malm. Would y'all be as judgmental if such were held at another time of year (eg early winter, midspring, midsummer, late fall, etc)? Where even in the Christian Bible does the Creator forbid non-religious social events or functions and/or restrict the time of year such can be held?
How about respecting telling the truth? So telling Lies outrageous lies is not evil anymore?
The ones in charge of this website will easily be able to see which countries commemts are in.
Here's another one. Another UCG person.
Martha/Concerned Sister needs to find help. Serious help.
We have no evidence for the photo. If it was at a COGWA camp it could be for mean numerous reasons, the printing company was 25 years old, it was an inherited t shirt.
Why don't you email COGWA and ask them?
What Martha and Concerned Sister are doing is giving UCG worse publicity than Prince Harry.
Why dont't you contact COGWA and ask them Martha. You know the drill.
The “25 years” is weird because it is attempting to show unity and continuity. The cogwa technique is to repeat a theme often enough until people start believing it. The truth is that the cog leadership is an abysmal place to find unity. Sadly their whole lives have been based in separating people.
As a whole, they separate themselves from the vast majority of the world’s Christians. They splinter and split from one another as churches. They separate extended families and friends. They separated marriages and parents, children, siblings. They separate people from their neighbors and communities. They then striate into Their multi level hierarchy.
They were taught that lockstep theological agreement is prerequisite to walking together. They still mangle the verse “can two walk together”. They think it means unless they agree about everything. In fact it is saying “can two walk together unless they agree to do so”.
All this to say, they have been trained and raised away from understanding the way of unity.
Comment was made saying: "...Knowledge "puffs up" in and by itself but grace allows people to be where they and others are in the learning process without judgment and condemnation..."
So true! The entire post was very interesting, and it does appear that the WFW was/is a team building exercise. My wife, still part of United, looks forward to it, as well as to upcoming seminars, any get-togethers, etc.
Before I retired it was usually the company's top managers who went to such team-building get-togethers to have lots of fun. It seemed to keep all of the leaders in line, and rarely did I ever see the managers come back from their "charm school" team building events in such a changed way that they practiced any new habits learned (e.g. Steve Covey's 7 Habits, type things).
Ideally, I suppose if grace were really acknowledged in everyone's life there would be no divisions at all. The divisions have already occurred. The splits exist. More may come.
Division is a process of dividing/separating something into parts. Disunity is a state of NOT being able to agree about important things. A title like "Disunity is the new Unity" may really be more appropriate than the "Division is the new Unity" b/c with the current disunity there does continue to exist friction, infighting, schism, strife, "war," yes, even division: the opposite of peace and harmony.
One other interesting comment made was: "...It is clear that to Jim Franks, unity is everyone in one corporate entity and he lays all the blame for all the splinters at the feet of Joe Tkach. But as I pointed out in my post, "Who Causes Division" David Barrett says all splits in WCG to the present various churches of God could only be caused and were caused by the ministry..."
Jim Franks, and virtually all of the former WCG hirelings, who fled WCG and left their ministerial credentials behind, continue to NOT heed Paul's advice:
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]". Ephesians 6:23
[{flesh … : Gr. blood and flesh }] [{spiritual … : or, wicked spirits }] [{high: or, heavenly }
All of the division(s), and disunity, are readily acknowledged by most of us, but where is that unity? Will the wrestling of flesh and blood continue? Time will tell...
John
12.25 AM
What are these outrageous lies that you're comp!aiming about?
'Knowledge puffs' up is no longer true. In today's world, the more one knows, the more one realizes how little one knows. So knowledge today is quite humbling.
Please, no mindless bible quoting.
What jim said.
There's no winning with those who drink the kool-id. Didn't try to get a picture before because I figured I'd get called a stalker. But if I don't, I'm making things up, exaggerating or need serious mental help. Fine. I just cropped out the kids' faces and I'll send them to Gary and see if he has a way to post them for me.
Who wants to place odds on whether Anonymous 3:37 and 6:52 are in the Maranville family tree?
Dr. Meredith used to yell, "You can't put God in a box!" It's true!
MY COMMENT - Agreed! BUT (drum roll)….BUT you can put the late Rod Meredith in a box!
Richard
Lets put this to bed right now. The ACOGs all attempt to show continuity of their own groups as the "one true church" sometimes falsely claiming or distorting numbers. There is a plaque over somewhere in Israel, iirc, which commemorates something done by Flurry's PCG, and the plaque states that the PCG was founded by Herbert W. Armstrong. The corporate COGaWA is attempting to portray its program as a continuation, by claiming for itself the years which actually belong to the corporate UCG. This is disingenuous, and I for one do not believe that Martha is being petty in any way by calling them on their bullshit self-aggrandizement.
BB
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