Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
Dave Pack: Do Not Loathe My Position As Apostle When I Change, Clarify and Make Complete U-Turns
For decades, the Church held fast to an overly simplistic prophetic timeline. While true after a fashion, this understanding either ignored or misunderstood other verses. Christians were to faithfully hold on to this old thinking as it was “present truth” (II Pet. 1:12).
Over the last few years, God has greatly expanded our prophetic knowledge. Instead of using a vision or a visitation from an angel, the God who said He changes not (Mal. 3:6) chose to reveal prophetic truth to His Church through an apostle! Appreciate the significance of this. God wants His apostle, guided by the Holy Spirit, to put together the grand prophetic puzzle.
Adjusting decades of incomplete thinking is not easy. God anticipated there would be moments of clarification or, at times, complete U-turns in understanding. Therefore, He tells us in I Thessalonians 5:20 to not despise, loathe or feel contempt toward this process.
How does “prove all things” apply in this situation?
Led by an apostle, the entire Church must prove the prophetic truths God is revealing. In other words, we may have to “test” several scenarios before coming to a full understanding of God’s intent.
Most are familiar with proving established doctrine. Far fewer are familiar with the process of how doctrine is initially revealed to the Church. The latter is not always a clean process.
“Proving all things” in light of prophetic understanding is not an invitation for heresy—anything contrary to the official teachings of the Church. For individuals to keep or throw out prophetic doctrines at their own discretion would lead to chaos at worse and confusion at best. It would also violate speaking the same things and being of the same mind and judgment.
Avoid going out on a limb and taking a “twiggy” approach to doctrinal understanding. Stick to prophetic doctrines as they are being taught.
Since prophecy is only to be known in part until fulfilled (I Cor. 13:9, 12), there is inevitably a process of trial and error when seeking complete understanding. God went so far as to record the mistakes of previous apostles to comfort future leaders and those who look to them for guidance.
Dave Pack
49 comments:
In other words, Dave doesn't know what he's talking about and is only guessing.
“A dead clock is right twice a day,” George Galloway, a British politician, says this often.
Veiled in his own words he is saying that he can change teaching when it is required, I.E. suits his agenda. This man is a nothing more than a wolf. What more do people need to be convinced by in order to leave?
I have a question?
Why would God command the assembling together of his church on the Sabbath and have some drive 1 or 2 or 6 hours to hear his apostle conjecture through trial and error with the grand prophetic puzzle and do this for six straight years?
So God's people are to hold fast to present truth which is actually error found by the trial process and then they have to "adjust their thinking" to be able to hold to the new and improved truth and do this without "despising the process".
And the membership has to perform this with all having the same mind. The education in insanity is complete for those that partake in that game.
The mistakes of the previous apostles I don't think were recorded so some man could take comfort in doing those mistakes 100 times over plus adding a hundred more new mistakes on top of it all.
If the Holy Spirit is performing all of this, then I don't want your damn holy spirit!
Anon 9:02
George Galloway is not a British politician. He lost his seat in 2015. He is now involved in workers union style organisations.
drive 1 or 2 or 6 hours
A strict Sabbath keeper wouldn't travel more than "a Sabbath-day's journey" (which is a manmade limit) beyond the city limit (based on Exodus 16). I never thought about that when I was in the WCG, despite the repeating of the Matt 24 statement about not fleeing on the Sabbath.
Sounds like the Packatollah is back peddling.
Whatever happened to Amos 3:7: "Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets". I use to hear this verse a lot when I was growing up in the R/WCG.
Note that Amos 3:7 doesn't say "Surely the Sovereign Lord does nothing without revealing by a process of trial and error his plan to his servants the prophets".
Richard
Or god could just come down to earth and teach people directly, and bypass all this nonsense. But that will never happen since he does not exist.
"Avoid going out on a limb and taking a “twiggy” approach to doctrinal understanding. Stick to prophetic doctrines as they are being taught"
I thought Timothy was instructed to hold on to sound doctrine "as he had been taught", not "as they are being taught."
Dave's God isn't all that skilled in clearly communicating precious prophetic truth it appears. Love the "trial and error" prophetic "let's try this" approach. Lots of wiggle room there and obviously Dave has been struggling with a way to explain why nothing he has said is actually true to date.
He's sneaking up on Paul's recognition that he was wrong about everything "soon" and now all things prophetic are only seen in part and dimly.
I Cor 13... " But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,"
If he's not careful, he's going to reinvent Paul's recognition before he died and was not actually changed at any moment or twinkling of eyes and that indeed, all do die, that...
"If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels,(HE DOESN"T BTW) but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.(WHICH HE ALREADY IS) 2 If I have the gift of prophecy (WHICHE HE DOESN"T) and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge,(WHICH HE NEVER HAS AND CAN"T) and if I have a faith that can move mountains,(DITTO) but do not have love, I am nothing.(ALREADY THERE) 3 If I give all I possess to the poor (WHICH HE HASN"T) and give over my body to hardship (IN THE COMPOUND? I THINK NOT) that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.(WHICH HE HAS ALREADY GAINED)
His twisting of scripture and his own actions and prophecies is somehow one of the more disturbing things I’ve read. I think about those poor souls who have fallen under his evil/insane sway and his appearance similar to a preying mantis adds to it.
Love the "trial and error" prophetic "let's try this" approach.
You got it! RCG brethren are on trial, and Dave is in error. Yes, RCG brethren are on trial. Do they have the conversion, nay, do they even have the basic human memory, to consider that if they had applied Dave's current standard to Joe Tkach or Roderick Meredith (or to Flurry, Hulme, Luker, Kubik et al.), they would never have left those churches for RCG?
God will not accept the Nuremberg defense, "I did it because my minister told me to." Any RCG member who sees God in Dave Pack's words and deeds is seeing, and serving, the wrong god.
He too was right only twice, once when he said that and the second time when he said, I'm dying...
Actually, I think this is very exciting - what next he is going to start teaching? What will he change? Where will it all end? I just hope they all stay away from cool-aid. - leopold
This is such insanity...
As usual, all the prophesy speculation has nothing to do with everyday living, and is only used to keeps his members hypnotized.
To Dave, his members are only tithe cows to fund his Wadsworth doll house.
Ah Dave the Packman, a legend in his own mind. I wonder what makes this guys tick? I bet you take an x-ray of his head you'll find a rabid hamster spinning on a rusty squeaky hamster wheel, or maybe it's just a dirty rat in there?
Well Dennis it appears the one thing Dave Pack is skilled at is being a pompous arrogant twit who seems to think the world, the universe and the kingdom of God revolves around him.
We can only hope that his little kingdom comes crashing down. I hope he's still alive when it happens as I'd like to see the look on his face when his little empire crashes and burns before his very eyes.
In other words, Mr. Pack is like the scientists who were asked for opinions about COVID-19 in March and April - opinions which in many cases have turned out to be wrong.
He's also comparing himself to journalists reporting on breaking news.
But the problem is that God's word is settled (Psalm 119:89). The whole text is there, waiting for you to sort it out.
Maybe he needs to keep his mouth shut until he sorts it all out - and ONLY THEN make his big prophetic pronouncement. That's clearly been an issue with him.
7.38 AM
David Pack is 72 years old. I don't think it a disaster if an old person's world crumbles. They have lived their life.
You wonder what makes this guy tick?
Two things: power and money. Or money and power
@leopold
Dave’s next teaching: “I am Christ! The C in my name stands for CHRIST!”
Does anyone know what the C in David C. Pack stands for btw?
“...there is inevitably a process of trial and error when seeking complete understanding.”
Ah, yes.
Tried the PCG splinter group. Oops!
Tried the RCG splinter group. Oops, did it again!
@ Anon 9:26 AM
"Does anyone know what the C in David C. Pack stands for btw?"
Yeah, it stands for David Corrupt Pack, because he is a Corrupt bastard!
“Dave Pack: Do Not Loathe My Position As Apostle When I Change, Clarify and Make Complete U-Turns”
Bait & Switch SCAMS like Dave Pack's Restored Cash Grab (RCG) cult do seem to involve a lot of “Complete U-Turns.”
God allows false prophets to prophesy lies in His name so that He may justly judge those who follow false prophets and their lies. They do not endure sound doctrine because they love it when their itching ears are tickled. Instead they turn their ears from the truth unto fables.
Those who follow the likes of Gerald, Thiel, Dave, and even tax cheat Weinland do not have a heart that is right before God. Their evil false Christs, their evil false teachers, reveal that these people are evil themselves.
I say let them continue to follow their false prophets. They are without excuse and they will know it when it comes to the times of "weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Does anyone know what the C in David C. Pack stands for btw?
Dave's autobiography says it stands for "Crowl" (his maternal grandfather's surname).
OMG! Dave Pack has an autobiography? What a delusional individual. It’s not like he’s Herbert W . Armstrong who started his Worldwide fear religion business from almost from scratch
The C in Dave's name stands for confidence-man or con artist. Police at the turn of the twentieth century had a separate department dedicated to this type of crime. As the word implies, the victim would hand over their property after the criminal had won over their confidence. This was portrayed in George C Scotts movie 'The flim-flam man.'
David Pack has an autobiography huh. Outside of his church no one knows him, so who is buying his book? Let me guess, does he say that he has a special calling? What an egotistical tool!
The "C" in his middle name, stands for CRAZY!
The Painful Truth at 11:03 AM said...“God allows false prophets to prophesy lies in His name so that He may justly judge those who follow false prophets and their lies. They do not endure sound doctrine because they love it when their itching ears are tickled. Instead they turn their ears from the truth unto fables. Those who follow the likes of Gerald, Thiel, Dave, and even tax cheat Weinland do not have a heart that is right before God.”
True.
The dirty old men and filthy old women in Gerald Flurry's PCG cult did not seem to be there for the religion. They seemed to have something else on their minds about 100% of the time.
When Dave's apostle gig takes a u-turn because the tithe slaves split, at least he won't have to worry about his finances. All the properties he's been buying in Wadsworth can be Dave's new source of income till Kingdom come.
Crazy
Excusing a "trial and error approach to prophecy..." is simply another way of saying "I don't know what I'm talking about, but you better listen to me anyway, and go with whatever theory I happen to be promoting today, but be ready to completely change directions when that theory doesn't pan out." This approach completely ignores the simple instructions we have that help us to determine who might be a true or false prophet, teacher, etc. The bottom line is that if someone presumes to speak for God, and what they say ends up being a lie, they never spoke for God in the first place, but were speaking on their own authority. Deuteronomy 18:22
Either what you say is true and will come to pass, or it's not, and if you are claiming the lofty title of Apostle, Prophet,Pastor or Teacher, or even privately entertaining such thoughts, and presume to speak for God, you better be able to back that up with something more than your own over inflated ego, claims of greatness and authority, or that you were "ordained" by HWA, XYZ,or ABC COG, because in the end that won't make any difference in the world if what is coming out of your mouth doesn't reflect Jesus Christ, and is simply your own speculation or opinion, or you are using the pulpit as your own personal soapbox. Just because a strong personality claiming some sort of ministerial authority says it, doesn't automatically make it so.
Many in the COGs who believe in the Sabbath, Holy days, etc. have been duped by their leaders into thinking that as long as these things continue to be taught, everything is fine, while they ignore other things that might not be fine, or in line with what God truly teaches.
Self promotion, grandiose claims of authority over others,or placing yourself between people and God instead of merely pointing them in His direction and being a mentor to them is not okay. Factions, division, and posturing for position is not okay. Waving your own institutional flag and refusing to associate or fellowship with other members of the body of Christ simply because they don't have membership in "your church" is not okay. God didn't create your church. A man did. God created congregations or communities of believers who are supposed to grow in grace and knowledge and love for each other, which in many cases is the exact opposite of the fruits we see in many of these groups, especially the more authoritarian ones.
Being a cold, distant, lofty authority figure who constantly talks about or points to his ministerial authority over others in the body of Christ does not model or promote an atmosphere of brotherly love within a congregation. The word minister simply means servant. The Greek Biblical equivalent would be diakonos, which is translated as servant, minister, or transliterated into the word deacon in the New Testament. These are not different "offices", titles, or positions of hierarchy. The word itself means servant. So how on earth did we go from a word that means servant and the direct admonition of Jesus Christ not to exercise authority over, or lord over others, to one claiming the right to exercise "ministerial authority" over brothers and sisters in Christ, even when what comes out of that persons mouth doesn't reflect Jesus Christ, the Head of the body?
Claims that Jesus Christ is going to return or the tribulation is going to start in 1936, or 1939, or 1975, or 2019, or 2020 when you don't know for sure if that is the case is NOT okay, and if such claims don't come to pass that makes them untrue, and you a false prophet, who has spoken on your own authority, and not on God's regardless of whatever else might be taught in the background. And, backtracking whenever such claims don't come to pass and demanding peoples loyalty anyway is also not okay.
Concerned Sister
Sounds as though he is softening everyone up for some big change......watch this space.
I wonder if lying Dave bequeaths his property to the furtherance of the organization or does it go to his private heirs upon his death.
Sounds as though he is softening everyone up for some big change......watch this space.
Several on this board predicted this some time ago. In summary (who knows what specific variations Dave will lay on it):
David Christ, Superstar
The Bible clearly shows us that impostors will grow worse and worse in the end times. GRF and DCP fit this description perfectly. The primary emphasis on false leaders is within the church.
For far too many years the old WCG spent too much time being concerned about the deception from without, and ignored the deceivers from within (especially, the corrupt ministry). The old WCG became a breeding ground for many self-deluded individuals.
Fast forward to 2020, and we see these two men (who have been false witnesses, cunning deceivers, and downright mean COG bullies) Many of us have seen them in action, and have
called them out for their rotten deeds. We've done our part, and God will do His, in His time. Thankfully, God is patient (and not wanting any of us to perish) or we'd all been ashes long ago.
Concerned Sister, Armstrongism isn't based on love, it's built on authority.
4.55 PM
In Armstrong church culture, the minister owns you. Stealing people's lives is not "authority."
What do you believe in then concerned sister.
Much emotion has been invested in this. I am going to risk a counterpoint anyway. Two points:
1. I am not on the inside of any of the splinter groups. But I have a feeling that the criticisms we launch against splinter leaders are received as a badge of honor. They are blessed by our "persecution" (Matthew 5:11-12). The carefully crafted spin is that we are accusers of the brethren instead of ethicists, philosophers, altruists and theologians - as we would see ourselves. In a sense, we provide a credential or a merit badge to these people.
2. We are on soft ground, by my reading of the NT, when criticizing splinter group leaders for the exploitation of predictive prophecy. I stand firmly against Apocalyptic Millerism but the NT doesn't really say much about quality assurance as applied to prophets. The OT does in Deuteronomy 18. But the NT seems to be more permissive. Paul says, "If any man think himself to be a prophet . . ." in Cor 14:37 as if it is entirely up to the individual to make this declaration. (Or maybe Paul was being disparaging.) And earlier in the chapter it says "And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets" like maybe if a putative prophet wants to define a "Trial and Error" approach, he is not outside the pale of the NT.
It simplifies to this. The ad hominem attacks and lame attempts at humor aside. Why do we believe what D. Pack is doing is wrong based on the NT? Any Packites who may be following this are not going to accept anything that does not have a scripture behind it. To them, without a scripture, it's all just political talk and "fake news."
Whatever happened to Connie Schmidt?
Richard
NEO
Indeed. Cult deprogrammers warn against flat out attacks on cultleaders when trying to get frends out. Any appearance of evil by deprogrammers might be interpreted as expected, evildoers, speakers, bladphemers, scoffers.
The prediction addiction is a matter of rationality. Even HWA said that the bible is "only" 1/3rd prophecy, this implies 2/3rds for normalcy.
I mean whats a person to do when all has come to pass. I would toss the bible away as I would with expired yellow pages from 1976.
Nck
"Lake of Fire Church of God said...Whatever happened to Connie Schmidt?"
Connie is still here, she goes by Tonto now.
I want to know what happened to Joe Moeller!
Dave said: "God wants His apostle, guided by the Holy Spirit, to put together the grand prophetic puzzle."
Too late Dave. Art Mokarrow solved God's puzzle years ago with his booklet on "God's Puzzle Solved!" Totally already solved!
But I think "God's Safe Cracked!" might still be available if you hurry.
https://archive.org/details/godspuzzlesolved00moka
Too late Dave. Art Mokarrow solved God's puzzle years ago with his booklet on "God's Puzzle Solved!" Totally already solved!
But I think "God's Safe Cracked!" might still be available if you hurry.
God's Mumbling Understood?
God's Handwriting Deciphered?
God's Mess Cleaned Up?
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