Should human worth be evaluated in this way? If so, which dot is you? Maybe your tier is not even shown.
The Hierarchy – Part 2
Armstrongism and the Theology of Autocratic Hierarchy
By Krischan
The revolution in my thinking happened at the Feast of Tabernacles in Tucson years ago. My family and I were eating breakfast in large hotel and I looked up and on the mezzanine above us were Worldwide Church of God ministers and their families dining separately from church members. They had better accommodations than we had, better hotel service than we had and better food than we had. And the financing for this had come out of my pocket. My son and I were at the hotel swimming pool one evening and a minister and his wife were sitting next to the pool. They did not in any way greet us or acknowledge our presence. At another time my wife and I boarded the elevator and this same minister and his wife were already onboard. Though they knew us from Ambassador College, they did not acknowledge us. Their body language said “go away.” To them we were nothing but church trash. That was how our human worth was defined by The Hierarchy. My radicalization began.Jesus in Prison
An important theological means of preserving The Hierarchy is the subordination of Jesus. If God is hierarchical and Jesus is a lesser being then then there is a philosophical precedent for sorting people into greater and lesser categories as to human worth. “Church trash” is then a valid concept underpinned by the very Doctrine of the Hierarchical God.
Dixon Cartwright interviewed Robert Coulter who had been one of the past Presidents of the General Conference of the Church of God (Seventh Day). And Coulter made a breath-taking statement: “When I grew up in the church (CoG7), it was Arian. It taught the preexistence of Christ, but Christ was not God… Arianism tends to degrade the position of Christ.” At one point, Cartwright seeks clarification on what Coulter meant precisely by Arianism and Coulter stated, in part, “…Jesus existed as a spirit being before His conception in Mary but was a creation of God the Father at some distant time toward past eternity.” The Word who became Jesus was not God but was a created being. This was the theological environment in which HWA’s beliefs were incubated.
In order to maintain the doctrine of the Subordination of Jesus, adherents use a collection of scriptures that pertain to Jesus’ Kenotic state. Jesus did empty himself of his glory to come to earth and become incarnate (Philippians 2:6-7). During that Kenotic interlude such statements as “…my Father is greater than I” in John 14:28 are perfectly valid. But these statements have validity only within a certain transient context. The adherents of the Subordination of Jesus keep Jesus, ideologically, imprisoned in his Kenotic state in order to exalt The Hierarchy.
Jesus the Defender of Church Trash
There is a difference between a hierarchical church government and the hierarchical valuation of human beings. A hierarchical government may have some value but sorting people into a hierarchy based on their perceived human worth is never moral. Yet when there is a strong autocratic hierarchical government, there is a temptation to use the hierarchical principle suited to a physical process in valuing human lives. Jesus knew that such things would happen in human governance, so he issued a New Covenant Law to oppose bad governance.
Imagine someone gets disfellowshipped. This is, in effect, a death sentence. A disfellowshipped person can expect to burn in Gehenna to ashes. The minister may feel confident about the disfellowshipping because he knows that God backs him up. Whatever he binds is bound and whatever he loosens is loosened. So, the minister can’t be wrong. If he made an error in judgment in the disfellowshipping, God will back his decision rather than the reality. This is why The Hierarchy is so powerful. God will back the people at the top of the hierarchy even if they issue a wrong judgement – even if it contradicts what God is in his essence. Fallible humans could in principle overrule God simply by making a mistake. I don’t know that this bizarre scenario depicts, in every point, real circumstances for any denomination. If someone were to have this belief, they would be theologically, morally and intellectually deficient. But it serves here as an example of abusive governing.
The New Covenant Law that Jesus announced in Matthew 18:6 addresses any situation where bad church governance occurs including the practice of disfellowshipping. Jesus said in each of the Synoptic Gospels:
“But whoso (speaking to the disciples, future leaders of the church) shall offend one of these little ones (children symbolizing believers) which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea (Matthew 18:6).”
This is a New Covenant Law focused on the ministry that serves to regulate any process where church governance may be abused or, in our example above, the process of disfellowshipping. The disfellowshipper (a minister) must be profoundly certain, to the point of refraining if there is the least doubt, that there is not even the slightest bias or ethical shortfall to a disfellowshipping decision – anything that would cause offense. The Law Jesus stated has frightening consequences. It should always be cited in conjunction with the exercise of church governance or the process of disfellowshipping. Unless it is cited, this leaves the minister thinking he has a free hand to operate, to loosen, and to bind, but he does not and the consequences will have a dire effect on his life. Having a disfellowshipping policy without this New Covenant Law being prominently featured is like giving someone a loaded gun to play with and providing no warning.
Matthew 18:18 on loosing and binding does not cancel Matthew 18:6. Christ issued both in the same passage. In fact, Jesus, leads off with Matthew 18:6 in this passage. But Matthew 18:6 operates in conjunction with church governance in general. Therefore, Matthew 18:6 and 18:18 both operate together. This means that if a minister binds an action on a church member, the minister also simultaneously binds himself to be judged by God on the integrity of his decision.
Why is a Hierarchy of Human Worth so Important to Some People?
Why would someone decide to value people as if they were livestock on a farm? I can conjecture. It may convince people to yield to autocratic control. It may reduce people to the level of an anonymous resource. It may be a ploy to exalt a leader or create cult celebrities. Because people relate to each other through The Hierarchy, inconvenient Christian love is displaced. Perhaps, The Hierarchy provides the environment for little tyrants to masquerade as leaders. Whatever, The Hierarchy shifts the focus from God to man. Another person is going to tell you what you are worth instead of God – tell you where you fit in The Hierarchy. Someone might even have the temerity to tell you that the only reason you are in the church is to support The Work financially.
Summary Statement
This is very difficult idea for people who are trapped inside The Hierarchy to understand. To some, the idea may even seem dangerous. It is the idea that hierarchy can work well for some secular processes but it should not be applied to the valuation of human beings. It is an easy idea to understand unless you have been indoctrinated to believe that some humans are intrinsically more valuable than others. Then you will writhe in frustration trying to understand this idea and then finally fall back on the belief that hierarchies are a necessity in nature and, therefore, define how we must value human beings. Just try to get a grip by remembering certain facts from your pre-cult days. Every human being is in the image of God. Jesus is God. Jesus died for everyone. Jesus loves everyone. “For God so loved the world…”.
41 comments:
I think the lowest teir shown would be the run-of-the-mill pastors in WCG. I'm sure that with the deacon layer and VIP layer that I would have have been at least four layers down.
The first will be last, the least one in the kingdom will be greater than all of these. Isn't this what the King taught ?
My wife grew up as being the LOWEST rung of the hierarchy. Her mother was a divorced mom, with a lot of kids, poor as can be, on second tithe and third tithe assistance.
"Loosening and Binding" are for every believer to use, not just pastors.
As usual, they take scripture out of context to fit their narrative.
"Church Trash" - Where did that term come from? That's not in the Bible.
Jesus preached the opposite behavior.
Those are pharisees that used you and ignored you.
"Loosening and Binding" are for every believer to use, not just pastors.
As usual, they take scripture out of context to fit their narrative.
"Church Trash" - Where did that term come from? That's not in the Bible.
Jesus preached the opposite behavior.
Those are pharisees that used you and ignored you.
Through out all of human history, people have been valued as "if they were livestock in a farm." All societies are status based, with each members worth being determined by the contribution they make to their community. God defines reality and that's the way it is. For instance, if a woman is looking for a mate, she will try to attract a handsome, high status male with a high income.
This author justifies his stance by fusing hierarchy with bully morality. Just because a person is low status doesn't mean that they have no rights and can be pecked on, which is bully morality, and rampant in church culture.
I also question the motives of anyone who writes articles like these. I had a young psychopath in my workplace, and the "song" I got from him non stop was "don't think you're better than me." Yet I was old enough to be his father. When he felt he could get away with it, he treated others as his rightless slaves. So his "don't think you're better than me" was nothing more than compartmentalized, thieving, rule rigging.
At the feast in the early 80's a friend of mine and myself were the only 2 on an elevator when GTA got on. It was obvious we were in the church by our dress and bibles in hand but Teddy boy just stood there looking up to the sky like we didn't exist. I guess we could have talked to him but it just seemed right at the time to let him make the first move.
Also, I once overheard a minister talking to my father-in-law, who was a deacon, that it was customary for the church to cut checks to ministers at Tabernacles time to the tune of $5000. Not bad money for the 1970's! 2nd tithe for us but not them!
"Church Trash" is not in the Bible. Nor is it an Armstrongist terminology. But it is descriptive of how the people in the lower rungs of the Armstrongist church hierarchy are viewed by the upper tiers. Most of us have our own collection of empirical evidence that we may call on to support the use of this term. And the term does mark the distinction among classes that The Hierarchy creates.
A notable datum in this regard are the putative words of one of the WCG Evangelists. He said the church membership consisted of the "cream of the crud." My guess is that he was referring to the laity and not the ministry - the pews and not the pulpit.
BTW, this was what was taught at Ambassador College informally. AC was about The Hierarchy. It was about who was important and who was not, who to hang out with and who to avoid, how to use The Hierachy to advantage, how to join the Inner Circle (this could be a definition of success), how to be a hierarchical autocrat (sometimes referred to as a "leader"), and how to avoid the Servant Leadership taught by Jesus. This education did not happen in the classroom but in the operational management/privilege distribution domain of the college.
Krischan
Women are not lowly. They complete their husbands and have the hardest job and most rewardable job on the planet..They must be available 24/7 and take on many roles - nurse, counselor, teacher, cook, driver, organizer, etc. Wives and mothers are amazing.. You could not afford to pay them what they are worth. Jesus recognized women as very valuable.
That is unacceptable behavior.
They are takers. They are users. How disrespectful. That is the environment Armstrong created. That atmosphere is a reflection of leadership...prideful, arrogant. No reflection of Jesus.
Most "converts" never understood much of anything about what it was really about. They just wanted to get to Petra. For them it was all about fear--fear of the tribulaton or losing contact with friends and family. Many of them didn't really read thier bibles or the literature nearly as much as they knew they should. Now they sit in judgment of what they never understood.
Jesus recognized women as very valuable.
Especially my mom. Happy Mother's Day mom.
Oh please, the ones who contribute these pompous articles are the very ones who lack any respect towards people.
It's the fox writing to the chickens.
It's all about respect. Don't believe the hype the ones who contribute to this blog have ZERO respect for others. They love to manipulate others and are seeking gossip to thrive on.
Don't believe a word they write.
9:18 post said the people sitting in the seats paying for the Pharisee pastors way were also labeled "cream of the crud." That is despicable. That is abuse. That is bullying. In the workplace & school & in a normal home the bully would be punished.
7:09
I find your response very idiosyncratic. Responses to some of your statements:
"God defines reality and that's the way it is."
I am appalled. You are stating that God is the author of what Paul calls "this present evil world." This leads me to believe that you are a non-Christian and probably not an Armstrongist, either.
"This author justifies his stance by fusing hierarchy with bully morality."
I constructed an argument rather than create a justification. The latter implies need on my part to fend off guilt of some sort. I did not actively fuse the hierachy with bully morality. This makes it sound as if I concocted the whole thesis out of whole cloth. What I am presenting is an observation taken over a thirty year period accompanied by some rational analysis. And on this you have placed an odd spin.
"I also question the motives of anyone who writes articles like these. I had a young psychopath in my workplace, and the "song" I got from him non stop was "don't think you're better than me."
I am sorry you had a bad on-the-job experience where someone younger did not respect you. It happens. It has nothing to do with my essay. I am writing about a social phenomenon within the ranks of Armstrongist organizations that stems for a particular theological view. Not a one-off.
Krischan
I remember the "cream of the crud" usage. It never bothered me at the time as I basically felt "hey, I'm in a better position than all the crud that are not in WCG." I was elite and took the further step of attending AC.
The hierarchy was wrong, but maybe my youth kept me from better realizing that their need for hierarchical strata did affect my valuation of myself more than I thought.
The valuation it so greatly diminished for me was maybe not as much in my measure among others, but rather in the eyes of the Lord. I did not understand the value and love God had for us and placed on us. What a terrible teaching! The WCG and its splinter cogs are a blight.
To Anon 944 regarding women.
In addition to the roles you mentioned women are capable wether single or in a relationship. They can be doctors, CEO's, high ranking military officers, and political leaders. They don't require a man's permission or involvement to fulfill their life potential whatever that may be.
2Cor 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
There are probably questions as to exactly what Paul was referring to but the verse seems to have some relevance to the topic in this post.
Krischan, perhaps I didn't make myself clear. My 7.09 pm comment isn't just about one psychopath. All psychopaths and psychopaths-light have certain common characteristics. Which is why the Psalms 37:21 "the wicked borrow and do not repay." My young psychopath's behavior and beliefs are universal, which is why God put him there as part of my education.
As far as I'm concerned, your anti hierarchy article is rule rigging that's no different than that of my psycho friend.
Ktischan wrote:
“ This makes it sound as if I concocted the whole thesis out of whole cloth. What I am presenting is an observation taken over a thirty year period accompanied by some rational analysis. And on this you have placed an odd spin.”
Well, the way it’s written and vocabulary used makes it look that way to the readers who aren’t the author.
My personal experience and observation over a 68 year period indicates to me you are using a lot of personal assumptions from a very biased mind set on rumor, and typical “oh, woe is me” excuses for not taking personal responsibility. And, written by a person who never fully studied what was actually taught, or simply couldn’t understand what was taught.
I was NEVER, treated by HWA, GTA, AL PORTUNE, DR. HOEH, etc. as you incorrectly describe. But, I was treated that way by some fellow students, and various members and local elders after leaving Pasadena. Lots of things were misunderstood and misapplied in local congregations that are now blamed on HWA, etal, like you are doing.
Try tackling some of the real problems for a change, set the right example, and present a real solution for a change. It takes no mind power at all to be negative.
Stand tall mentally, physically and spiritually. The average bloke can’t even imagine such a personal step forward.
Somewhere it says not to rejoice in your neighbor’s calamity. So, why do it?
As I said, my 68 years of experience and observation has given me lifelong friendships, many healings, and blessings beyond my imaginings. What more could one ask for from following real Bible teachings? Be more than happy to compare them with your gripes, complaints, and exaggerations any day.
Paul said to use simple words so all can easily understand. Why not follow his advice and drop the arcane theological mambo-jumbo? It’s cathartic.
Here was a good laugh for me.
After reading my copy of my post, after posting it I discovered my spell checker changed a word. It changed mumbo-jumbo to mambo-jumbo. Couldn’t stop laughing. Enjoy.
9:07
"2Cor 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise."
The principle that Paul expresses here is against the Hierachy. Paul was running into opposition. There were those who "commended themselves" - opponents of Paul. They were people of rank - false apostles - Paul calls them derisively "super-apostles." They had a penchant to compete and make comparisons with each other. But Paul indicates this was like two bad apples comparing themselves with each other.
This is quite interesting passage. According to theologian Stephen Harris, these people may have come up from the Jerusalem Church. This would comport with Paul's clarification of circumcision in 1 Corinthians. The super-apostles may have been from the Circumcision Party. They were Jews who taught another Jesus and another spirit and another Gospel. And interestingly, incorporated into all of this, they were followers of The Hierarchy. This is what 2 Corinthians 10:12 is talking about.
So we have people, likely from the Jerusalem Church, likely promoting Circumcision and the retention of other aspects of the Law of Moses who also want to ensnare the Corinthian Church in a hierarchy. Like Mark Twain said, "“History never repeats itself, but it does often rhyme.”
Krischan
12:58
You are suggesting that I am like you psychopath because I have called out a serious problem, stemming from bizarre theology, that afflicts Armstrongism. In other words, you have dodged all the issues by deflecting attention to an ad hominem attack on me. You have addressed none of the substantive issues. I think we need to label you the Artful Dodger.
Krischan
1:24
"Well, the way it’s written and vocabulary used makes it look that way to the readers who aren’t the author."
I think you need to bring it. What is wrong with the vocabulary and the way it is expressed? And how does that connect with the idea that I concocted this. Maybe you don't like the use of the word "Church Trash." Why not? I think it conveys my point well. Can you think of a better, more accurate term given the circumstances I described?
"I was NEVER, treated by HWA, GTA, AL PORTUNE, DR. HOEH, etc. as you incorrectly describe."
Do you think you were the only person in the world who interacted with these people. Talk about "...using a lot of personal assumptions from a very biased mind...".
You response consists of a bunch of sound bites that one would hear from the Armstrongist pulpit. My guess is that you are an old person who has never confronted any of the issues burdening Armstrongism and find my essay entirely outside your range of analysis.
"Lots of things were misunderstood and misapplied in local congregations that are now blamed on HWA, etal, like you are doing."
This is the kind of thing that would come from the Armstrongist pulpit. It's all a problem with the local areas. I was there. I witnessed it. So have many others. And I don't buy what your whitewash.
Krischan
Krischan wrote:
“This is the kind of thing that would come from the Armstrongist pulpit. It's all a problem with the local areas. I was there. I witnessed it. So have many others. And I don't buy what your whitewash.”
Nice typical response Krischan. Another defective assumption. You are good at that. As I mentioned, and which you ignore, is you are attacking the wrong problems.
Your reliance on “Armstrong pulpit” etc. is pathetic. Responses like that are not facts, they are your typical ad hominem blunders.
So, an old person is not qualified to show how your rants are just that, rumor mongering rants. You have a lot to learn my biased friend.
I have not whitewashed anything. Evidently you can’t read either. I clearly wrote you are attacking the wrong problems.
Most secular materials on self improvement describe your kind of tactics very well, and they aren’t productive tactics for good human relations.
And, as I also mentioned, be glad to compare all your negatives with all the blessings I have received that you never claim for yourself. Have you ever been instantly healed, without medical intervention? I have.
Have you ever been told that a full education institution tells their students “If you want to feel better, go get a massage, but if you want to get better go see ————.” The blank space is me.
My father was in the hospital with heart problems. Once when I visited him the cardiac monitor went off. No doctor or nurse was there. So, I worked with him. The monitor stopped before the nurse could get there. When she did, she wanted to know what I did. The doctor came in and she told him what I said. He was stunned also. Neither understood, yet the answer is in Guyton’s manual used in most university medical schools.
Have you spent private time with any of the men I mentioned? Evidently not. I have. And, I mean private time more than once, not just a hi when passing through a hallway.
Interesting, in writings on mob psychology there are descriptions of why and how ordinary nice, kind, normal people turn into a hanging mob. The group mind just takes over. That’s what is so dangerous about sites like this. And, it appears that at the moment you are the present leading instigator.
There is much more you don’t seem to know, so we’ll see how far Gary let’s us go in this discussion.
6:28
Instead of empty arm-waving and ad hominem attacks, like a true Armstrongist, why don't you pick one of the issues that I raised and treat it in detail?
Otherwise, bye.
Krischan
Krischan, the "Artful Dodge?" No, no, I have many times stated that my position is that all societies are hierarchial, which is a good thing. In a just society, the hierarchy needs to be based on merit, eg movie stars are famous and rich because of the enjoyment they give their audience, and hierarchy does not give anyone the right to abuse those below them.
"Ad hominem attack?" Again, no. Not every reply is exclusively directed at you. I stated my psycho friend experience to give other readers an understanding of your point of view. Which is why I've also written before that HWA ministers practice "narcissistic devaluation" as an immoral way to gain undue influence over their members. It's about giving readers mental armour rather than attacking anyone.
Otherwise, bye.
Krischan
——————
Sorry you can’t stand the heat of truth.
Be glad to pick one of your biased assumptions and negate it. Let us know when you are able to handle the truth.
The righteous are bold as a lion. Pro. 28:1
Anon1011,
A few questions you can answer fully if you like, but I think it would be helpful to know where your position if you would also answer my "Yes or no" query.
SO do you believe the hierarchy as formulated by HWA was correct? Yes or no
Righteous? Yes or no
Part of that hierarchy was HWA immediately under Christ and that all revelation from Christ was through HWA. Do you believe that? Yes or no
Do you think such a hierarchy devalued the lay members? Yes or no
Most that were ever in WCG did not have private time on more than one occasion with the individuals you listed. Because you did, I presume you were an employee of WCG at some point or simply were viewed differently than most lay members. Statistically there will always be some that benefit from a bad organization (speaking generally). As such, do you think your treatment within WCG is representative of most? Yes or no
It is much easier to dismiss the criticisms of former Armstrongites by saying that they never really understood what was being taught than to actually address those criticisms. Indeed, this is a common tactic of Armstrong apologists - "You were never really converted" "You never actually comprehended THE TRUTH!" OR "You have allowed a root of bitterness to form within you, and it has caused you to imagine that you have somehow been wronged!"
I call BS! Just because you never experienced something that others have experienced does NOT mean that they didn't experience those things. If I see a shooting star and you didn't, the fact that it happened is NOT changed by your failure to experience it! We can all be thankful that you were never abused by Herbie and company, but that doesn't mean that others weren't! Your ACOG experience doesn't invalidate mine or Krischan's ACOG experience.
THE TRUTH is that Scripture does NOT support human hierarchies. Babylon is used as a prophetic template in Scripture for a reason. The adoration/worship of the ruler or state is clearly contrary to God's will and system. Glorying in military and economic power is clearly inconsistent with reliance on God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. The servant leadership model stands in stark contrast to the authoritarianism of Nebuchadnezzar, Pharaoh, Alexander, and the Roman emperors. Indeed, Christ taught his disciples that they should NOT imitate or adopt human notions about leadership. Likewise, when the Israelites asked God for a king, he warned them that their new king would tax them and use them in his army and building projects.
In similar fashion, the hierarchy of the now defunct Worldwide Church of God viewed the lay membership as being in a supportive role. Their job was to send in their tithes to headquarters and pray for the leadership - PERIOD! They were there to OBEY and SERVE, NOT to have any input into what was taught or done by the Church (and leadership certainly didn't have any obligation to serve the membership)! Mr. Armstrong was viewed as being God's apostle and was, consequently, entitled to live in luxury and have his own private jet! He was seen as being answerable to God - NOT the great unwashed of the Church! He had revealed the truth to the deceived folks whom God had decided to yank out of this world (God had used HIM, not them). For most of the folks here, THAT is the PLAIN TRUTH! You may not see it that way, but we do. Sorry, if that's a little too hot for you!
10:54
No, you pick. I want to see if you can do anything at all besides grouse.
Krischan
"..normal people (can) turn into a hanging mob. That's what is so dangerous about sites like this."
So you see folks, unless the peasant members are under the thumb of micro managing ministers, they will burn, plunder and rape everything in sight. A very self serving rationalization for ministers lording ways. Thugs don't trust freedom, which is understandable since they themselves lack self control.
When in human history has the "Borg" solution ever worked? God in the old Testament over and over told Israel to choose either life or death, blessings or curses, BUT never took this freedom away from them. Removing this freedom would mean that man is no longer made in God's image. So this "solution" is self defeating. Interesting how most of Christ's apostles spent time in prison so that they could personally experience this "solution" and know how repugnant it is.
Good, the mob is forming to attack the one they can’t handle on a one to one basis. All ill informed but certain they are correct, are more than willing to gang up on a single person. Obviously because they believe mass attacks prove they are right by default.
Years ago, actually decades, my friend Bill Ellis visited me and my wife. He took a couple hours explaining things going wrong at headquarters. Visiting program prying into members and employees private lives, and other matters. Turns out Bill went to lots of homes in Pasadena explaining these things to as many as he could.
Later, about two weeks, he returned. Only this time he couldn’t stop apologizing for having told us those things. Finally, I stopped him and said, Bill, it’s ok, we already knew those things, it was nothing new to us. Plus, we told him how we handled those things.
Both at work, and at home, the visiting program set appointments with me. They were easy to handle. How’s work? Great. Any problems we can help with? Nope. Everything is going fine.
At home, anything we can help with? No, not really, we are finally settled in and things are going fine. Any scripture questions we can help with? Actually, no. After four years at Ambassador, and late night studies, etc, etc. we are pretty secure on that. (We also made sure to turn on our portable swamp cooler when they visited. With windows and doors closed. Suits and ties don’t handle that very well.)
Anybody here ever spent time with HWA alone, and on a Sunday morning? If so you would have seen an older man unshaven, totally worn out, and weary. From what? From having a load on his shoulders that none of you grumps here could handle, no matter how much you try to condone your actions.
Here was a man who had to make payroll every month, pay utility bills for three big “corporations “ etc. all totaling into the millions of dollars every month! A man who could barely see having lost his vision in one eye, and the other getting worse. And, to add things to that, men surrounding him that were using his age to do his work for him. All under the guise of making things easy for him. Men like the folks on this site.
It appears no one on this site takes any of these things into account when vomiting out your flimsy diarrhea.
Men like Hunting, and others were using their church credit cards in the hundreds and thousands of dollars for non-church business.
And more we can discuss later.
HWA called much of these things out in writings and sermons. But, nobody listened to the senile old man, just like here. One describing how as the church passed on from first generation to next it would grow weaker and more rebellious. You know, like this site today, and the splinter groups.
Most of you here don’t seem to know that SDA doctors were recommended to members along with prayer for healing. But, the ignorant cry to the high heavens the church only used useless prayers. Blind leading the blind.
Well, that’s enough for today. Let’s see how hard the mob tries to destroy just these few simple things.
Maybe we’ll mention wife beating low life ministers next.
This is really fun.
8:24
Nice twisting of what I wrote. It had nothing to do with a ministry controlling anybody. It simply had to do with how good normal thinking people change in a mob setting, you know, like here. And, by the way, thanks for proving my point. I appreciate it.
11.01 am, crowd psychology only works in physical crowds, and not to the extent that you claim for your "good" people. Sites like this are basically peer review blogs.
Anon1057,
I was hoping just to get a single answer. I guess your position is that hwa was good, just that the organization became corrupted, or something like that. I would think that this would illustrate why such a hierarchy is bad.
Anonymous said...
11.01 am, crowd psychology only works in physical crowds, and not to the extent that you claim for your "good" people. Sites like this are basically peer review blogs.
Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 1:15:00 PM PDT
Good luck with that. This site is nowhere close to a peer review.
Anonymous said...
11.01 am, crowd psychology only works in physical crowds, and not to the extent that you claim for your "good" people. Sites like this are basically peer review blogs.
Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 1:15:00 PM PDT
Good luck with that. Peer review? You are kidding, right?
Earl said...
Anon1057,
I was hoping just to get a single answer. I guess your position is that hwa was good, just that the organization became corrupted, or something like that. I would think that this would illustrate why such a hierarchy is bad.
Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 7:16:00 PM PDT
No, it is proof prophecy is real, and has done it Job. This site proves prophesy is accurate, and is going according to plan.
929,
I'm disappointed you did not answer any of my yes or no questions. They were not loaded or "gotcha" questions. This site, though helpful for many, is of no prophetic significance. Your hubris, WCG background, condescension, and phrasing (e.g. "proves prophesy is accurate", "going according to plan") seems consistent with David Pack. Marc Cebrian would know better though. I have often times prayed that RCG's harm to its members would end.
What's this about peer review? How is this even possible? What are the criteria? Whether one sits or stands while peeing? Accuracy vs dribbling on the floor in front of the toilet bowl or urinal? Color of the pee? Odor? Who would even want to review such a nasty bodily function?
C'mon, guys! This is a site about a horrible cult and its founder, although I'm nearly sure that Gerald Flurry has some Herbert W. Armstrong urine samples.
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