Get Ready: The Fall Holy Days Are Almost Upon Us!
Lonnie Hendrix
It’s September, and the ACOGs are all busily preparing to celebrate the fall Holy Days. Never mind that most Christians will NOT be celebrating them, they will wear their uniqueness in this regard as a badge of honor – as proof that they are the REAL Christians, and all of those other folks are just pretending! Never mind that those festivals were clearly part of the terms of the covenant between God and Israel, they will tell anyone who will listen that Christ and his apostles observed them. Never mind that festival observance undermines the ACOG contention that the “moral” commandments of Torah were carried forward into the terms of the New Covenant and obligates them to explain why these clearly ritualistic commandments should not be ignored by Christians.
HWA and most of the groups who follow his teachings regularly quote the twenty-third chapter of Leviticus to bolster their case for Christian observance of God's festivals. They point out that these events are referred to as “the feasts of the Lord” – that God calls them “my feasts." They are quick to point out that these festivals are God’s appointed times. They also like to point out that the phraseology of "a statute forever" and "throughout your generations" is employed over and over again in this chapter. The implication is clear: These are God's festivals, and they are to be observed forever.
However, when one digs a little deeper into these passages from Torah, such dogmatic assertions do not hold up under scrutiny. In fact, an independent study of what Scripture has to say on the subject reveals that HWA and his followers have either left out and/or twisted a great deal of what is revealed there. For instance, in the opening verses of this chapter (Leviticus 23), we read: "And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them..." Doesn't that indicate that this message was clearly for the children of Israel? Likewise, in the final verse of this same chapter, we read: “Thus Moses declared to the people of Israel the appointed feasts of the Lord.” (Verse 44, ESV) So, yes, they are the Lord’s festivals or appointed times which he gave to the children of Israel as part of his covenant with them!
Another item which they typically gloss over or ignore is found in the sixteenth chapter of Deuteronomy and is referred to as the "Law of the Central Sanctuary" by many theologians. Simply put, it is made clear here that there would only be one acceptable place for the Israelites to observe these festivals. Notice the phraseology which is repeated over and over again in this chapter concerning them observing the festival in the place "which the Lord shall choose." Indeed, in the summary of these festivals, we read: "Three times (or seasons) in a year shall all thy males appear before the Lord thy God in the place which he shall choose..." (verse 16).
This concept is made even clearer in the twelfth chapter of Deuteronomy. After instructing the Israelites to destroy all of the places of worship which the previous inhabitants of the Promised Land used (verses 1-4), we read: "But unto the place which the Lord your God shall choose out of all your tribes to put his name there, even unto his habitation shall ye seek, and thither thou shalt come" (verse 5). The following verses make plain that this encompassed all of their religious observances, including the feasts (verses 6-7). And then, just so there wouldn't be any room for misunderstanding, we read: "Ye shall not do after all the things that we do here this day, every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes. For ye are not as yet come to the rest and to the inheritance, which the Lord your God giveth you. But when ye go over Jordan, and dwell in the land which the Lord your God giveth you to inherit...Then there shall be a place which the Lord your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there...Take heed to thyself that thou offer not thy burnt offerings in every place that thou seest: But in the place which the Lord shall choose in one of thy tribes, there thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, and there thou shalt do all that I command thee" (verses 8-14).
Of course, most students of the Bible know that there was only one place which God chose to place his name - one place for the central sanctuary: The Temple at Jerusalem. This is made clear in the books which cover the kingdom period. After Solomon completed the temple in Jerusalem and prayed that God would recognize it as his house (I Kings 8), we read of God's response in the following chapter: "And the Lord said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there forever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually" (verse 3). Compare this scripture to II Chronicles 7:12-16.That the temple at Jerusalem was the place which God had chosen is made plain throughout these histories of the kingdom period. It is evident in Jeroboam's decision to create two places of worship at Bethel and Dan to prevent the people from returning to Jerusalem to worship after the ten tribes abandoned David's dynasty and kingdom (see I Kings 12:25-33). It is also clear from these accounts that festival observance as outlined in the Torah was a rare occurrence during this period. This is demonstrated by the fact that Hezekiah and Josiah were reported to have held festival observances in accordance with God's instructions (see II Chronicles 30 and 35).
Notice too, that ALL of the festivals required a pilgrimage to Jerusalem, not just the Feast of Tabernacles (as practiced by most Armstrongites). This understanding is critical to a proper comprehension of the entire subject going forward.
Now, as all good students of the Bible are also aware, the Israelites and the Jews (Judah) were carried into captivity. Moreover, when King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon defeated and dethroned the last king of Judah, we are told that he destroyed Jerusalem and the temple (see II Kings 25 and II Chronicles 36). What happened to festival observance when that happened?
We read in the book of Lamentations: "The ways of Zion do mourn, because none come to the solemn feasts: all her gates are desolate: her priests sigh, her virgins are afflicted, and she is in bitterness" (Lamentations 1:4). In the following chapter, we read: "And he (God) hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the Lord hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest. The Lord hath cast off his altar, he hath abhorred his sanctuary..." (Lamentations 2:6-7). Without the temple in Jerusalem, festival observance as specified by God came to an end! To be sure, festival observance was later re-established - after some of the Jewish exiles were allowed to return to the Promised Land and rebuild the temple; but there is no escaping the fact that festival observance ended for a time.
What about the fact that festival observance is prophesied for the future - in God's Kingdom? (See Zechariah 14:16-19) Notice that this is speaking of the FUTURE. This passage clearly refers to the time when the Lord of Hosts shall be headquartered in Jerusalem. And, once again, everyone will be required to attend the Feast of Tabernacles at JERUSALEM (verses 16-17) - NO Mt. Pocono, Wisconsin Dells or Jekyll Island!
Didn't Jesus and his disciples continue to observe the festivals? Yes, Christ continued to observe the festivals. Remember, he had to fulfill all of the particulars of the Law in order to rescue us from the penalty of breaking its provisions. Notice, however, that Christ always attended the festivals at Jerusalem! In the Gospel according to Luke, we read: "Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the Passover. And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast" (Luke 2:42-42). Likewise, we read in the Gospel according to John that he attended the Feast of Tabernacles (Chapter 7) and Feast of the Dedication (Hanukkah) at Jerusalem (10:22-23). Of course, we all know that Christ celebrated his final Passover with his disciples in Jerusalem (Matthew 26, Mark 14, Luke 22 and John 13). There is also scriptural evidence that his followers continued to observe these rituals after his death, burial and resurrection (see the book of Acts).
Doesn't this demonstrate that Christians are still obligated to observe these days? NO! Remember, the early church was Jewish. The apostles had failed to follow Christ's instructions to "teach all nations" (Matthew 28:19) and had focused instead on Palestine. Hence, it is quite natural that Jewish Christians would have continued to observe these Jewish festivals. However, when the church finally began to expand into Gentile countries where there was no tradition of keeping the Mosaic Law (including festival observance), festival observance was practiced by a smaller and smaller portion of the Church (as the number of Gentile converts grew).
Finally, when the Romans captured Jerusalem and destroyed the reconstructed temple in the year 70 A.D., ALL festival observance ceased (just as it had when the first temple was destroyed by the Babylonians). Yes, history informs us that new traditions eventually developed regarding these festivals, and that the Jews began observing them in their homes and synagogues around the world. In similar fashion, many Christians eventually began observing them again after a fashion in later years. Nevertheless, it is apparent in both the Jewish and Christian observances of these days that they are following man-made traditions with regard to their celebrations and do not observe the scriptural formula for keeping them (indeed, it is currently impossible to do so)!
Hence, while we can all cheerfully wish our ACOG brethren happiness and blessings as they attempt to celebrate festivals which foreshadowed the work of Jesus Christ, we must NOT let them judge our decision to NOT participate in their celebrations. The PLAIN TRUTH is that New Testament Christians are NOT obligated to observe these provisions of the Old Covenant.
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Wonder how Paul observed the festivals when in Rome 2 years?
"Times" in Deut 16:16 are not seasons.
Lonnie,
Nice try. Your post actually explains why going to Jerusalem was not necessary in today’s world of observing the festivals.
And, to see how the atheist mind looks at quoting scripture, they would accuse you of “cherry-picking” your verses.
Oh, found this quote today that describes what is lacking on this site of always picking on the “faults” of others…
“As Mahatma Gandhi once said, "Be the change that you wish to see in the world".
I don’t see any of that here.
But, one can always hope.
It should be a pretty interesting Festival season. I'm thinking that in the coming weeks there are probably going to be a number of "Diarrhea Dan" copycats on the airlines, particularly on international flights. So, if you happen to be an ACOG member, innocently traveling to your Feast, you might want to opt for a window seat, and bring a gas mask.
Anonymous Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 5:00:00 PM PDT,
Actually, my post explains why it is IMPOSSIBLE to keep the festivals in accordance with the instructions provided for their observance in Torah. Also, the Armstrongist argument about dividing up the law into different categories (moral, sacrificial, ritual, judicial/civic, etc.) is undermined by forwarding these clearly ritualistic and sacrificial commandments into the New Covenant. As for the change thing, I would think that my posts are a fairly straightforward critique of heretical doctrines which could only be effectively delivered by a former Armstrongist like myself. In other words, I am trying to be the change that I want to see in the Armstrongist world.
"For instance, in the opening verses of this chapter (Leviticus 23), we read: "And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them..." Doesn't that indicate that this message was clearly for the children of Israel? Likewise, in the final verse of this same chapter, we read: “Thus Moses declared to the people of Israel the appointed feasts of the Lord.” (Verse 44, ESV) So, yes, they are the Lord’s festivals or appointed times which he gave to the children of Israel as part of his covenant with them!"
Come on Lonnie, your buddy Bill Watson over at CGI just put out an Armor of God podcast concerning the fact that US & Britain are Ephraim and Manasseh (Israelites), so get with the program!
What's your problem?
Sheesh!!!
Ronco,
I know :) I've got to get to work on that!
In addition to Bill Watson, I forgot that Mr. Pack has also written an important work on the subject of British Israelism.
https://rcg.org/books/aabibp.html
Lonnie wrote,
In other words, I am trying to be the change that I want to see in the Armstrongist world.
Sorry, but to me and others it doesn’t show. Sorry.
Now now fake Lonnie, how out of touch have you become ?
The observance of the feast if tabernacles has exploded amongst christisns. Thousands of Christians travel to Jerusalem to keep Tabernacles every year. It may not be in the exact same manner as COG groups but it is a remarkable change. A change in the right direction.
Tell me "Lonnie" do you not ever get bored with the forever negative attacks on others beliefs ? For you don't positively celebrate your own beliefs but forever write long attacks on others. Must become mundane after awhile.
But you shall never see the change you want. Does that not sink in ????? Every brick you have torn down, in every deceitful manner, shall be put back after you've gone. Do you understand ??? I mean the real you, not that fake social media persona.
Every brick.
You only achieve building your own gallows, you aim to spiritually hang others but only destroy yourself.
It is totally OK to attack the beliefs of others if those beliefs suck. The 'dytes really get pissed that we have freedom of speech, and they don't.
Wasn't the Mosaic Covenant between God and ONE group of people, the Israelites? Were the Chinese or Bolivians required to observe the 613 laws of the covenant? Was the whole world required to go to Jerusalem for these pilgrimage festivals? Was there an expiration date on this covenant? Wasn't it when Jesus came (Gal. 3)? You can choose to observe these holy days, just as Paul said you can choose to observe the Sabbath or you can meet together on the first day of the week (which the church did), but where do you find the Gentiles being told that they too must observe these days which were given to one group and the requirement ended with Jesus?
Having successfully emerged from it myself, I will never get tired of trying to help other folks out of the mental straitjacket that is Armstrongism. Even so, I would like to see Armstrongists actually addressing the points made in the post. In the grand scheme of things, I am just another sinner who has been saved by Jesus Christ.
Desperate times trying to justify vile attacks on others beliefs because you don't really have any faith to write home about yourselves. Nope not really.
Pride always comes before a fall.
Lonnie .... a well written article with many good points. Having kept this 'tradition' for over 60 years --- and it is indeed a tradition. You make very good points about how the FOT cannot be observed according to commands and scriptures delivered to Israel. Just as the Jews realize they cannot keep Passover according to the OT with no temple available, they created a Seder 'tradition' in an attempt to please God and in some way observe the OT command. HWA designed a tradition in an attempt to observe the holy days and festivals, but there are no commands other than what is found in the Old Testament.
Nowhere found in the NT are any instructions for FOT observance ... or a command. There is a plethora of information about belief in Jesus, about Him being our savior, and dedicating our lives to His service. Yes, there are prophecies about observance of the FOT in the millennium, and that is in Jerusalem with functioning priesthood ---- with the entire world included instead of Israel only. But for what is now referred to as the 'church age', there are NO instructions for any such commanded observance. I recognize that most descendants of the WCG view this tradition as a commanded observance, based on traditions of men. I don't see observance necessarily being a sin, but it can be if that becomes something to be worshipped instead of Christ, and frankly most never consider why they go to places directed by their organization, on dates set by that organization, but believe they are following the instructions direct from God instead of that end time, only apostle, HWA who claimed authority to set doctrine and believe.
I have found it most profitable in the past many years to read scripture for what it actually says, instead of what others claim it means according to their understanding or teaching of their organization. I also try to note what is NOT said in scripture and while forming an opinion, acknowledge not having a full understanding of a particular subject. The teaching of and about Jesus Christ in the NT are quite plain, reassuring and positive!
Yes the COG gets around the verse's directed towards the children of Israel by quoting what Armstrong taught for many years. He always said we are the lost tribes of Israel so God was talking to us. He said all countries with English as their primary language are part of the loss tribes and are commanded to keep the feasts. His excuse for why the gentiles must keep it I'm not sure, maybe the part where salvation is now available for the gentiles. I don't agree with his logic, but after being in the Church for several years this is what I always remember the COG's teaching in relation to the holy days
Zechariah 14:16–19 is often used by Armstrongists to underpin the keeping of the holy days. But this is an uncertain foundation on which to base a dogma of holy day observance. So much so that it is really quite a leap of imagination to conclude that it supports the practice.. There are some features of this passage that make me think this passage may be speaking in symbol and allegory.
The first issue is logistical. Earlier in the chapter, Zechariah states that all nations will be gathered to war against Jerusalem. All nations will be defeated and there will be survivors. And the survivors must come to Jerusalem to observe Sukkot. How do the survivors of all the nations make a pilgrimage to Jerusalem? How do they travel there from all over the globe? They may be decimated by the war but they still constitute nations. If we impose Armstrongist ideology on the question, “Are there enough airlines, hotels, motels and restaurants to accommodate perhaps a billion or more people in the immediate environs of Jerusalem?” Some will say that the nations will be nearly wiped out leaving few survivors. But are we talking about nations are just a motley crowd? Further, this is to happen “year after year” when the nations will have grown in population. The scripture implies appreciable nations.
Later on in this chapter it speaks of “the Lord’s House” or the Temple and a nearby verse refers to sacrifices. Yet in the Book of Revelation, it does not speak of a physical Temple. Instead, God will be the Temple in the Eschaton, the Book of Ezekiel notwithstanding. Further, where are the other holy days in this scenario? Why only Sukkot?
If we want to be apologetic in support of modern day Armstrongist practice, we can become cunning interpreters and say that this only applies to small national delegations and there will be a physical Temple and sacrifices will be reinstituted. And the principle of synecdoche gives us the rest of the holy days. But this leaves some unresolved issues – such as the lack of a reference to a physical Temple in Revelation and New Testament views of sacrifices. It is just as easy to conclude that this will be fulfilled at the spiritual level and Zechariah is using contemporary language and ideas to refer to the worship of Jesus who will be ruling from Jerusalem.
There is so much significant uncertainty about what this passage in Zechariah is describing so as to lead one to be disinclined to use it to support any major doctrine such as the observance of the holy days. I don’t know what the passage actually means in terms of geopolitical events. Various arguments can be easily challenged.
Scout
Scout, not only Sukkot ------
Ezekiel 45:21 (NASB)
21 "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, you shall have the Passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.
Yes, there is a lack of physical temple in Revelation, but that is a later time than the millennial period. Ezekiel spent quite a bit of time describing how that physical temple will be built and the sacrifices that will be made.
I too have wondered how 'all nations' will come to Jerusalem, but that is one of those things I figure God will work out! :-) Speculation is interesting, but when the new heavens and earth are restored, (not Revelation), we can only imagine how the calendar will work across the entire earth as God chooses to set it up for the good of mankind in the worship of God.
Christian reasoning for keeping the Holy Days. Here are just a few things to consider.
1 Jesus is Our High Priest and the law is administered by Him. It has been changed in this respect. (Hebrews 7:12)
2. Any Levitical practice associated with the Holy Days is no longer practiced under the new priesthood.
3. Our High Priest tells us:
John 4:21-John 4:24 NKJV
Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
So, the Holy Days under the Administration of Jesus do not have to take place in Jerusalem.
4. Paul sent a letter to the Corinthians right before Passover and told them
"Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." (1 Corinthians 5:8)
Paul told Gentiles to keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread in Corinth while giving them a spiritual lesson and instructions concerning a local member. This follows the logic of Jesus as our High Priest.
5. Paul also tells the Colossians:
Col 2:16-Col 2:17 ESV
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
Paul tells Gentiles not to let anyone judge them on their observances of festivals. This implies they (Gentiles) were observing festivals in a way that human commands and teachings were at variance with. Also, Paul is also linking Christ and future prophetic fulfillment into the meaning of the Holy Days. The themes of the Holy Days are throughout Paul's writings.
6. Paul tells Timothy, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." So, creating new Christian traditions within the framework of keeping the Holy Days is a to wonderful way to Praise and Worship our Savior.
7. There's no biblical instruction about Easter or Christmas, and billions of traditional Christians keep these days. Compare this to Paul, who directly says, "Let us keep the festival" when speaking of Passover and Unleavened bread. We also have the example of Jesus, the Apostles, and the early Church keeping the holy days and teaching us about the meaning of these days.
Lonnie writes:
"Hence, while we can all cheerfully wish our ACOG brethren happiness and blessings as they attempt to celebrate festivals which foreshadowed the work of Jesus Christ"
Thanks, but we are not merely attempting. We will be keeping the festivals that simply show the work of Jesus Christ in our lives.
Lonnie writes:
"The PLAIN TRUTH is that New Testament Christians are NOT obligated to observe these provisions of the Old Covenant."
This statement illustrates what I think many fail to understand. We do not keep the festivals out of mere obligation but as acts of Love for our Savior Jesus Christ.
Great answer Jeff.
You need to put that one on speed dial seeing how the same old arguments keep showing up over and over again!
According to Jeff's logic, only the priesthood has changed. He ignores the fact that the same epistle to the Hebrews states: "When God speaks of a 'new' covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." This statement followed a quotation of Jeremiah 31:31-34. This is the Scripture that described the nature of covenant that would be radically different from the Old one - one where God said: "I will put my laws in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts."
Next, Jeff quoted a statement recorded in the Gospel of John which Jesus made to the Samaritan woman at the well. Unfortunately, Jeff didn't provide any context for his remarks. Jesus had just told the woman that he could give her living water which would become a "bubbling spring" within anyone who drank it and would give them eternal life (John 4:10-13). Clearly, Christ was explaining to the woman that HE was the source of salvation, and that he was about to render all then current religious practices OBSOLETE. No longer would people worship God according to the written commandments of Torah - Henceforth, true worshipers of the Father would do so in "spirit and in truth." The woman was perplexed by Christ's statement, but she knew enough about what had been prophesied in the Hebrew Scriptures to tell him that the Messiah would explain everything to them someday. Then Christ told her that HE was the promised Messiah - the Christ! (Verses 20-26)
Thus, Jeff is right that the festivals no longer have to be observed in Jerusalem - In fact, they don't have to be observed by Christians at all! That is why Paul wrote to the saints of Colosse: "So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality." (2:16-17). In other words, the festivals pointed to the reality of Jesus Christ - they were only symbols of that reality! Now, as with everything else in Torah which points to Christ, I believe that ALL Christians would benefit from studying the commandments, rituals, sacrifices, etc. which make up the first five books of the Hebrew Bible - they can tell us so much about Christ and his work.
Even so, once again, Christ said that for his disciples that the entire Law was comprehended in two commandments: Love God and each other. That is what was to be written on the hearts of the people of the New Covenant - NOT all of the dos and don'ts of Torah!
Unfortunately, Jeff is not content with CGI's rationale for picking and choosing which provisions of Torah are binding on Christians. With this latest comment, he sees fit to introduce a rationale for ignoring some of the provisions of the commandments he tells us are carried forward into the New Covenant. This is a prime example of the slippery slope that this kind of reasoning leads to with regard to a Christian's obligation(s) to Torah.
Hi Jeff, interesting justification for observing the OT commanded days, but are you saying that they are no longer OT days? Do you see anything beyond what the Jewish community do with their Seders, or is this different? If so, do you still read Leviticus and Deuteronomy?
Question: In your mind and the teaching of CGI, are these days commanded for today or merely traditions put in place to worship God? You obviously don't understand what is being said by Paul in 1Cor 5:8. Obviously you have read the entire chapter which is good, but you still make the claim the cogs have made for decades that THIS is a command to eat unleavened bread, and then ignore the scripture you mentioned about worshipping in spirit and truth.
As far as your #7 point, where are those examples about the early church keeping those days and the MEANING of those days. Paul preach that? Peter preach that? John preach that? (The meaning of those days I refer to).
I appreciate the comment by Anonymous 9/8 @ 1:10:00, but let's be more explicit about that passage lifted from the fifth chapter of Paul's first epistle to the saints at Corinth. The ACOG's have always used this passage in the capacity of a prooftext for festival observance within a Gentile congregation, but the only way to use it in that way is to completely ignore the context of Paul's remark.
Paul was addressing here a serious problem within the Corinthian Church. The chapter opens with: "I can hardly believe the report about the sexual immorality going on among you—something that even pagans don’t do. I am told that a man in your church is living in sin with his stepmother." Unfortunately, in the very next verse, it is made painfully clear that the entire congregation had tolerated this sin and had continued to fellowship with the sinning brother as if nothing had happened. Paul's solution? Expel the sinner from their midst! (Verses 3-5)
This is the context for what followed: 6 Your boasting about this is terrible. Don’t you realize that this sin is like a little yeast that spreads through the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old “yeast” by removing this wicked person from among you. Then you will be like a fresh batch of dough made without yeast, which is what you really are. Christ, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed for us. 8 So let us celebrate the festival, not with the old bread of wickedness and evil, but with the new bread of sincerity and truth.
Once again, the sinner had infected the entire congregation - like yeast spreading through dough. Then Paul clearly stated that Jesus was their "Passover Lamb" - the one who had been sacrificed for them. This is what they were to celebrate. In other words, there is absolutely no indication that the Corinthians were actually celebrating the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Moreover, Paul's point about removing the sinful person from their midst - the leaven, is reinforced by Paul's conclusion to the chapter.
9 When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin. 10 But I wasn’t talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or are greedy, or cheat people, or worship idols. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that. 11 I meant that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or is a drunkard, or cheats people. Don’t even eat with such people.
12 It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning. 13 God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, “You must remove the evil person from among you."
Lonnie, you are absolutely correct in your description of this passage, AND it speaks for itself in the written scripture! For many years I have tried, (gently), to point this out to others, but that teaching is deeply engrained. My wife pointed out one thing about it, not that DUB had to be observed, but the people Paul was writing to had to have a knowledge about this festival, whether they observed them or not, or it would have little meaning to them.
Read it for what it says ---- admit what it doesn't say!
Anon 9/8 @ 6:12 said:
" My wife pointed out one thing about it, not that DUB had to be observed, but the people Paul was writing to had to have a knowledge about this festival, whether they observed them or not, or it would have little meaning to them."
Of course they knew about Passover, as it is a notable holdover from the OT feasts into the New Covenant in modified form- The Lord's Supper, Communion, Eucharist or whatever you want to call it, and it is detailed in 1 Cor 11:17-34. In many churches it is done more frequently than just once a year- 'For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.'
The Passover Lamb was sacrificed on the first day of the feast of unleavened bread, Nisan 14: Eze 45:21; Deut 16:1-4; Mat 26:17; Mark 14:1,12; Luke 22:1,7; Luke 23:54 correctly translated reading "and the sabbath began to grow light" (meaning darkness over the land was beginning to leave, on the 14th). On the 15th was the NTBMO feast. The DUB feast, only one of three (Ex 23:14-16), was from the beginning of the 14th to the beginning of the 21st - Ex 12:18.
Lonnie wrote:
"According to Jeff's logic, only the priesthood has changed."
It changes with the New Covenant. The Old Covenant was an agreement with a nation. The New Covenant is Jesus' agreement with His Church. This is the context of understanding how to apply the Law.
Lonnie wrote:
"Unfortunately, Jeff is not content with CGI's rationale for picking and choosing which provisions of Torah are binding on Christians"
Christ as our High Priest is the proper perspective when looking at the different categories of Law and how it applies.
Anonymous 1:10:00 wrote:
"You obviously don't understand what is being said by Paul in 1Cor 5:8 Obviously you have read the entire chapter which is good, but you still make the claim the cogs have made for decades that THIS is a command to eat unleavened bread, and then ignore the scripture you mentioned about worshipping in spirit and truth."
It is an instruction to keep the Festival. And that includes the most important spiritual aspect of removing leaven (sin) from our lives. That is what Paul wants the Corinthians to learn from keeping the Festival.
Which makes more sense?
"On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up" = "Christians worship on Sunday"
Or
"Therefore let us keep the feast" = "Therefore let us keep the feast"
Lonnie's comments at 4:22:00 are an interesting example of how the same text can be viewed so differently. To me, the entire context points to keeping the Festival. It is very clear. It sure sounds like Paul was speaking to people who kept the feast. Or how else would they understand the symbolism he is teaching? Use that same language to a group of Baptists and see if they understand the meaning without additional explanation. What Paul says makes more sense to an audience keeping the feast.
Paul even gives instructions in chapters 10 and 11 about proper observance of the Lord's Supper (New Testament Passover), which precedes the Days of Unleavened Bread. Another indication this letter was probably sent shortly before the Festival was to take place.
Anonymous Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 10:51:00 PM PDT said, "Now now fake Lonnie, how out of touch have you become? The observance of the feast if tabernacles has exploded amongst christisns".
MY COMMENT - Lonnie may not be a fake (although, it wouldn't surprise me if he were) but "Loonie Lonnie" is much more descriptive of who he really is along with his own brand of extremism.
I can provide an anecdotal observation to support your second sentence about the feast of tabernacles "exploding amongst Christians". Here in Southwest Florida in the City of Bradenton, I became aware of a large Sunday Keeping Church which believes in the Trinty with ZERO connection to the WCG or Armstrong Churches of God that also keeps the Feast of Tabernacles. They advertise the Feast on a large sign in front of their retreat which caught my attention. Although the Church itself dates back to the 1950s, I believe they have only been keeping the FOT for about 5 or 6 years.
Their website link is: https://www.christianretreat.org/events/feast-of-tabernacles/
I have no skin in the game for this discussion other than it seems to me if God were the same yesterday, today and forever (Hebrews 13:8), it seems to me if he instituted the Feast of Tabernacles and it was good, then God would want it observed in perpetuity. Zechariah 14:16 seems to imply it is an unfulfilled prophecy important to understanding the thoughts and intentions of God that someday all nations will keep the Feast in Jerusalem.
Richard
Christ and his apostles taught about him from Torah, Prophets, and Writings of the Hebrew Bible. After all, those were the ONLY Scriptures available to them - they didn't have any New Testament. As I have repeatedly noted in many different posts, Torah pointed to Jesus Christ - and that includes the festivals. I wish that ALL Christians were more familiar with Torah - that would be a very good thing! Torah can provide greater insight into our Savior in the right hands, OR it can be employed by legalists as a burdensome obligation on folks who have already been saved.
Glad to see I'm still living rent-free in Richard's head!
Jeff said:
""Therefore let us keep the feast" = "Therefore let us keep the feast""
Smokin' Joe Camel, do you have a freaking clue as to what a metaphor is, Jeff?
"Never mind that most Christians will NOT be celebrating them,..."
Ummm, no, ALL Christians will be celebrating them. Those that developed their own definition of "christian" won't be. They claim to be christian and expect everyone to accept that simply because they say so.
Hmm, sorta like that guy over there that claims to be a woman and expect everyone to accept that, simply because he says so.
There is nothing new under the sun.
Nice try Jeff, but unfortunately it's simply pearls before swine. They cannot appreciate the value of the gift.
Their day is coming, however.
We can clearly see what Paul was talking about when he enumerated the fruits or evidences of the Holy Spirit. Just read this commentary thread, and the non-Christians and swine become apparent to anyone with eyes to see.
"Just read this commentary thread, and the non-Christians and swine become apparent to anyone with eyes to see."
A true statement indeed!
When I was a COG member they expected me to take two weeks off of work to attend their "Feast of Tabernacles" and all of the other holy days as well. Keep in mind, I have an hourly job, pay rent, and don't make much money. They expected me to take all those days off without pay, and get a hotel room on top of it. Then you have to pay them for food and dinner dances, and any other activities to be allow to participate in them. So expensive! Then they collect all these different tithings from you that they put in their pocket, first, second and third. Then you pay for travel expenses. They make God's holy day a big drunken vacation, when the Israelites did not keep it that way. They always have a dinner dance, where all the members wait for the bar to open, then they are all drawn to it like they're magnetic. They act like a magnetic force pulled them up to the bar. I remember the one dinner dance, I spoke to a member that was apparently drunk. He said he drove four and a half hours to get there, and then he drove all that way back all drunk.
So we are trying to say that "let us celebrate the festival" doesn't mean "celebrate the festival"? I think we have hit a new low in handling the word of God!
Actually, I think the Greek and most all translations are saying to celebrate the festival but in the new covenant format of " newness of spirit ", with the " new bread of sincerity and truth". In other words, celebrate with the REAL THING, Christ the BREAD of life!
I see no reason to monkey around with crackers, unless that's just what you want to do for tradition sake.
Were the "Trumpets" and "Atonement" annual sabbaths (not festivals/chags; "festivals/moeds" in Lev 23:2 should be translated fixed/set/appointed times which include both sabbaths and the three festivals of Ex 23:14-16) added because of transgressions until Jesus came, that Israel would make noise so God would remember them, and fast? The two annual sabbaths no longer exist as a schoolmaster after the Holy Spirit came (Gal 3:19-29)? They were not commanded in Ex 20-23.
Odd mentality exposed.
Whaaat (Oprah way) why was that 'drunken' man stayng 4+ hours drive away from a Feast site ????
I once heard the way Tabernacles is kept by some, since Herbert died, as 'a money spending orgy'.
Haters gotta hate. It's from within you.
I'd like to see the fall festival upgraded. Jesus and the disciples were fishermen. That would seem to suggest a nautical theme, and it could also be a charity event to help the fishing community. The name would be changed to the Feast of 'barnacles, and church members would show up at dry dock to strip barnacles from the hulls of fishing boats, and make repairs as needed throughout the 7 days of the feast, except the sabbaths, during which pot luck lunches would be served. Kind of like the old Jimmy Carter Habitat for Humanity thingie, only on boats.
Half the feast sites are already held in boating communities anyway.
https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2023/09/i-corinthians-58-as-prooftext-for.html
Probably the most deeply seated entrenched deception of Satan is that the 15th of Nisan/Abib is the first day of seven days of unleavened bread. Pharisees in Christ's day, some churches today, think the 15th is the passover and think DUB is Nisan 15-21, or think the 14th is a separate festival and DUB is 15-21 as did the WCG.
Jeff, Miller: Could I change your mind to believe the DUB is 14-20? I don't think so. After 40 years I know of no other personally who believes 14-20.
But I think Paul was believing the day "Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us".....was the first day of UB and so commented about the feast and leaven in ICor 5. The 15th was what the WCG called the NTBMO feast.
"Times" in Ex 23:14 and Deut 16:16 does not mean seasons but strokes of time. Three feasts, not seven, are commanded. The 14th Passover is not mentioned in Ex 23:14-16 because it is the first day of UB. One feast is referred to in Eze 45:21, not two.
"Jeff, Miller: Could I change your mind to believe the DUB is 14-20? I don't think so. After 40 years I know of no other personally who believes 14-20."
What on earth does this minutia of 14th vs 15th and some other noise about NTBO have to do with "Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us" today?
Call me stupid, but I think Paul was saying that Christ is our Passover 24/7/365 and that we are charged to 'keep out the leaven' ongoing, not just 7 days a year. My bad.
Ronco says "I think Paul was saying that Christ is our Passover 24/7/365 and that we are charged to keep out the leaven ongoing, not just 7 days a year".
You are 100% correct!!!! That is the very thing these days point to and what we are to celebrate! Most have no problem celebrating Christmas and Easter, why not this?
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