Vance Stinson Joins Bill and Adrian and Embraces Trump!
Lonnie Hendrix
In a reaction to my most recent post, Vance Stinson revealed that the contest that has been raging within CGI for several years was never really any contest at all! The reason that Bill Watson’s, Adrian Davis’s, and Murray Palmatier’s political and culture war messaging has not been successfully curbed is that their views are shared by the man at the helm of CGI: Vance Stinson. I have it on good authority that Mr. Stinson was authorized by that organization’s leadership team to terminate Pastor Watson’s association with CGI, and he chose NOT to do that!
For context, here is an excerpt from the article I posted:
Why does the leadership of the Church of God International (Vance Stinson, Mike James, and Jeff Reed) continue to lose the battle over messaging with the Bill Watson-Adrian Davis wing of that organization? I believe that the reason is that this contest has reflected some of the same dynamics which have characterized the contest between Biden and Trump for the Presidency of the United States. How so?
Chauncey DeVega recently penned an article for Salon entitled Trump is all dominance, all the time. In the article, we read: “Political scientist M. Steven Fish believes that the Democratic Party’s inability, despite their many policy successes, to conclusively defeat the Republicans and the larger ‘conservative’ movement and American neofascists, is rooted in much bigger and systematic failings.” Continuing: “Fish warns that Donald Trump and the other Republican leaders use a high-dominance approach to politics and communication that allows them to set the agenda, which in turn puts the Democrats, who tend to be more passive and consensus-oriented, in a consistently weak position of reaction and defense.” In other words, it’s Trump’s style which makes him so attractive to white, working class voters.
Like their political hero, Watson and Davis use the same high-dominance approach to their messaging. They confidently assert (without real evidence) that God is on their side, and that the other guys are tools of Satan. Also like their mentor, they claim that things like Marxism, Globalism, abortion, homosexuals, and immigration are not only destroying the nation they claim to love, but that they are all part of a coordinated attack on Christianity. They warn that the other side is actively trying to pervert, deceive, and destroy. They argue in favor of authoritarianism and paternalism without blinking an eye, and their message is well-received in MAGA world and among the traditionalists within CGI.
If interested, you can read the full article here: It's All About Presentation!
Vance Stinson’s response:
After quoting from an article by leftist lunatic Chauncey DeVega (and apparently taking the nutcase seriously), Lonnie summarizes, "In other words, it’s Trump’s style which makes him so attractive to white, working class voters."
That's utter nonsense! Is that what's also attracting a growing number of non-whites, including many immigrants (and, no, Trump is not and never has been against immigration)? If anything, the reverse of what DeVega (who cites Fish) claims is true. The party of the pathological liar who currently occupies the white house controls the mainstream media and has weaponized the justice system and even our intelligence agencies against their political enemies. And we're to believe that Democrats "tend to be more passive and consensus-oriented"??? Good grief! Should I laugh or smash something? If Lonnie believes that garbage, he really needs to pull his head out of the sand.
The claim about why working-class whites support Trump is false, so it's not a very good premise for making a comparison. In any case (and for the record), I don't like being stuck in the "Democrat" category.
Lonnie writes, "Check out CGI's website sometime." Yes, by all means, check it out. And then tell me if you see the "war" Lonnie thinks he sees. Does it look like there are different "sides," and that one side is losing? Or does it simply look like there's plenty of room for different approaches and even some room for different views and opinions? What you won't find is a lot of yellow pencils.
---Vance Stinson
As you can see, Mr. Stinson makes very clear where he stands within the context of the ongoing debate within CGI – He is firmly in the camp of the Armstrongite Traditionalists! Apparently, he was only pretending to be on the side of sanity and reason within that organization. So, we see that Bill and his allies really had NOTHING to worry about all along! They had a secret ace in the whole!
Moreover, this reality is clearly reflected in the latest edition of their The International News. Once again, Bill Watson has the lead article in CGI’s quarterly newspaper, “Is America Losing Its Heritage? (If so, what can we do?)” The article opens with this lead:
Interestingly, the history of the United States illustrates an obvious Christian influence that is remarkable beyond question. And yet, presently, there appears to be a “cultural shift” to cancel this connection. One cannot help but to ask, why? What is so wrong about admitting the United States of America has a connection to the God of Israel?
And, make no mistake, Bill Watson unapologetically embraces the teaching of Anglo-Israelism! For those who may be unfamiliar with Mr. Watson’s teachings, he believes in a golden age of American righteousness – a time when the United States embraced and followed the God of Israel. You know, back in the days when Europeans were stealing Native American lands, enslaving their African brethren, and ruthlessly exploiting America’s resources to get wealthy! You remember, the good old days – when men ruled and women and children drooled!
Pastor Watson continued:
Consider the tensions and conflicts currently experienced over the encroachment of the Federal Government against state laws regarding immigration, abortion, legalized cannabis, public education curriculums, sanctuary cities or states, LGBTQ+ laws, and equality [DEI] regulations often mandated in the work place or public educational facilities.
These are just a few categories that cause contentions among ourselves and creates enormous cultural tensions, quarrels, and hostilities, which unfortunately lead to division and injustices inflicted upon the people.
The message is clear: Those nasty Gay and Transgender folks and all of those Pro-choice people and immigrants are destroying America! And, just so his message is not lost on his readers, there is a full-color picture of a “Gay Pride” parade with a big old pink tank rolling down the street! Bill then went on to decry the loss of state’s rights (a long recognized code word on the political Right for opposing any Federal action/policy which doesn’t fit their ideology).
And, just in case any of his readers were bothered by Romans 13, Mr. Watson continued:
However, what if the government begins to work ill toward the people it serves? What if the laws clearly infringe on your freedoms, such as healthcare choices, freedom of speech, or the right to defend yourself? These are important questions that go to the heart and foundation of our Christian resolve—of what is right, fair, and just! These are the very fundamentals of our Constitutional rights as U.S. and Canadian citizens—and as Christians!
So when is it acceptable to take a stand, or pick a lane?
For Bill, Vance, and their allies, the current administration in Washington is clearly the problem. If their guy was in office, all would be well!
For the record, Vance, I’m NOT a Democrat either. My point has always been that everyone is entitled to their opinions, but that those who claim to be pastors of Christ’s flock have NO business telling that flock how to vote (which candidates to support). Unfortunately, for those within CGI who do NOT believe in Anglo-Israelism and that Trump is America’s savior, you are clearly red pencils in a box of yellow pencils.
It seems to me that you have a decision to make. My only suggestion, follow the dictates of your own conscience led by the Holy Spirit!
34 comments:
Our latest Email conversation from this morning:
On Thursday, May 23, 2024 at 11:08:04 AM CDT, Vance Stinson wrote:
You completely miss the point. You state, "For Bill, Vance, and their allies, the current administration in Washington is clearly the problem. If their guy was in office, all would be well!" I never said or implied any such thing. I had hoped that the GOP nominee would be someone other than Trump, but since it's not, I will be voting for Trump, not because of his style but because I believe his policies are much better for the country than Biden's. But, no, all WON'T be well if "our guy" gets in office. That's an absurd interpretation of what I said and of what I believe. Let me be clear: I do not believe, and never have believed, that Donald Trump is the answer to all our problems. I DO believe that he is decidedly the better of the two candidates, and that's only because his policies are better. Nevertheless, I do not bring these matters to the pulpit.
VS
My response:
Vance,
You are entitled to vote for whoever you want to vote for - for whatever reasoning makes sense to you. I have NO problem with that. You, however, have been convicted by the Holy Spirit that politics from the pulpit is inappropriate, and that British Israelism is NOT true and leads to false prophetic interpretations. You also understand that preaching Jesus Christ and his Kingdom is the commission which Christ gave to his disciples, and yet you continue to tolerate the opposite. How long will you waiver between two opinions? You cannot continue to ride the fence on this one - people are being deceived, and YOU are permitting it to happen. Let me be very clear, going forward, I will assume that everything that you post reflects CGI's views and teachings (your disclaimer to the contrary is meaningless butt covering to me).
Lonnie
To use COG terms, their minds are focused on men.
Lonnie, you have taken what I said regarding my view of the disastrous Biden presidency and of how I do not appreciate the comparison you have made, and from that you have painted me as some kind of right-wing radical who thinks "my guy" will fix all the problems. So, for you, my expressing a negative view of the Biden presidency and my objection to your comparison mean that I believe Trump can do no wrong, that he's the one who can fix everything. That's quite a leap! And by taking the leap, you have painted me as something I am not! THAT is the issue with your latest attack piece. And, for the record, I do not perceive that I am "tolerating the opposite" of "preaching Jesus Christ and his Kingdom." You seem to think there is no room for sharing views and opinions on how things current may have prophetic significance. If that's the case, I simply don't share your opinion. Further, as I have told you elsewhere, the sphere of authority/responsibility the organization defines for me has boundaries. I do not have HWA-type authority to change whatever does not suit me. That's not the way CGI is structured.
VS
Look Lonnie, What you are saying is wrong, and you know it. Vance, Adrian, Bill have so much more true understanding than you. (They talk too long usually). Probably YOU have true understanding also, but choose to try to destroy everything. From what you post, homosexuality it the key to truly understand 'your' god. Your idiocy about "I keep the Sabbath and holy days" is merely a diversion for what purpose? You constantly say that is not important, (and in some ways I agree with that for this church era), but your focus is to destroy beliefs, and certainly not build up. I notice you never talk about what is referred to as the millennium in prophecy, where sabbaths and a couple of festivals WILL be observed. Why? Not important for mankind apparently. (I don't believe that is pertinent or even can be 'physically' observed today).
Your earlier post about the Sabbath Rest, was pretty much right on the target. But then you always go back to asking all to endorse you homosexuality as 'righteous'. It ain't!
It is encouraging to see you guys both, Vance & Lonnie, to be presenting sides to this case in good polite manner, this thread is very interesting so far, thanks!
I have been in a COG where the top leader/pastor presents himself as "non-voting, non-partisan"...but the biggie super-pillars/brethren under him will surely push onto you that if you're a "true" Christian, then you will non-votingly at least hope & pray for Mr. Trump to win. Also this same pillar guy put my head in a vise back when I tried to appreciate Sen. John McCain. The pillar guy told me in no uncertain terms, that "hey, John McCain is only a r.i.n.o." & that was key to seeing that brethren can "push politics" whether the "mantle" pushes it or not.
The top hierarchical mantle-y pastors have swarms of politics swirling 'round about beneath them on the COG ladder.
But Lonnie & Vance are showing very good points, thanks.
You'd think that these fools would be advocating a write in vote for Jesus Christ. They're really going to back a p#$$y grabber? I mean, seriously???
May I say this whole dispute is retarded? Sorry if that's not diplomatic enough.
Lonnie, I have serious problems with Watson's and Stinson's theology, but why should you care about their politics? I'm sure, like me, their political views are largely based on their moral views.
They recognize the plain truth that the gay'ing and trans'ing of our nation is shameful, and that the "choice" to kill a baby in the womb is an evil choice. I agree that, as flawed as Trump is, the former president expresses a less-evil view on these important issues than his opposition: the Democrat party, which as a whole celebrates them. For many reasons, Biden deserves to lose this election "bigly."
But I don't know that you're offended about CGI's politics from the pulpit as much as their condemnation of sexual perversion and abortion from the pulpit.
Yes, Bill's British Israelism is silly and wildly unbiblical, but it would be more fruitful to debate the issue directly. (Or, try your luck at explaining how two men "lovingly" destroying each other's rectums are part of God's plan.)
I admit that I have an off-and-on interest in the COG movement due to my own background and the fact that I still have friends and family there. I am concerned how COG followers are misguided about Christianity. But whining about the in-house politics of a church you don't belong to -- that's weird.
Church organizations will always have internal problems -- that's expected -- but more important is the state of men's souls. In the big picture, a man's politics does not compare in importance to a man's beliefs about God and how to walk with Him.
I recommend we all ignore mere political disputes and try to save souls, beginning with ourselves.
Unfortunately, Vance wants to have it both ways. He was given the authority by CGI leadership to fire Bill Watson (notice that he hasn't denied that), and he didn't do it - that was HIS decision. At least Bill and Adrian really believe what they post and make no bones about their agenda!
Nice try, 1:54. Change the subject and bring up the fact that I'm a homosexual (everyone can rally around condemning that - right!). My sexual orientation, like yours, is NOT righteous or unrighteous. Like you, I didn't have ANY choice in the matter. Now, even though I disagree with your assessment that same gender sexual relationships are inherently sinful, I am and have been celibate for many years. So, according to the standard you espouse, NO sin in that regard here! And, once again, you and I will be sadly disappointed if we are relying on our own righteousness to make it into God's Kingdom. Righteousness is imputed to us because of our acceptance of what Jesus of Nazareth has done for us - PERIOD!
COG Catholic,
Your language is intemperate and crude. Knowing what Bill and his allies think of you, it is surprising to find you defending them. You have made the mistake that many Christians have made before you - There is ZERO basis in the New Testament for the ekklesia and Christ's shepherds entangling themselves in the politics of this world. Now, as citizens of the United States, we all have the right to support whatever candidates and policies we choose to support. From a spiritual perspective, the ekklesia has no Divine mandate to tell members how to vote in secular elections. Now, while you are certainly entitled to your two-dimensional, black and white reasoning, you have no Divine mandate to impose your reasoning on others. It appears to me that you have exchanged one religious tyranny for another. The Church was commissioned to tell the world about Jesus Christ and salvation through him. There are plenty of opportunities in our society to squabble over politics - God's Church is NOT one of them!
Lonnie at 819 says, "there is zero basis in the NT for (the church) entangling themselves in the politics of this world".
The KEY word here is, THIS WORLD!!
Since when is preaching about the evils of THIS WORLD off limits to those who follow the example of the Lord Jesus Christ?
John 7:7 states, "the WORLD cannot hate you, but Me it hates because I testify of IT, that the works thereof are evil".
The church is commanded to "preach the word", 2 Timothy 4:2, which is meant to
" open their eyes, to turn them from darkness to light, from the power of Satan to God, that they should repent and turn to God", Acts 26:18-20, (see also Luke 1:77-79, Jeremiah 25:4-6).
The Armstrongites are singled out and condemned for doing this, but many other churches, even labeled "orthodox" by those on this blog, have been speaking out against ungodly practices of this world since day one. There IS a basis!
We may differ on specific methods and content, but the practice definitely has precedent, the prophets of old and the Lord Himself!
YEAH Vance! Man, it's been a long time since I've seen Vance this fired up! It's probably about time to "...answer not a fool..." though. Arguing with the uncalled produces nothing. Lonnie never passes up an opportunity to trash CGI, even if he has to make something up.
Darren's posit about two men lovingly destroying each other's rectums is pure GOLD. I'll file that one away for future use.
C'mon Lonnnie, give it up. Turn away from your life of confusion. Sincerely ask God to show you the way. He just might do it, AND give you the strength to follow through.
Way back when, I was neck deep in popular christianity. Part of my prayer was for God to show me the correct way, not realizing what I was asking for. I just wanted to be a better christian. Well, He did, and He used a very imperfect man to do it. I've never looked back.
BP8,
As always, a thoughtful contribution to this thread. In response, I would point out that the objective with both Old Testament Prophets, the Lord, and his apostles was always repentance and ultimate salvation. In other words, the goal was spiritual, NOT secular. While there is nothing wrong with pointing out sins and defining exactly how folks have fallen short of God's standard, you will NOT find a single instance where Christ took the secular government to task - either the Roman Empire or their clients in Judea! Instead, he focused on the so-called spiritual leaders of that day. As you know, the culmination of prophecy is God's Kingdom - the time when God intervenes to sweep away all human ideologies and governments (including that of the United States of America).
Trump may have talked about p#$$y grabbing, but Biden snifs girls and women's hair and took showers with his own daughter. Are you going to back that?
Hmmmm. Herod was a "fox". CGI is not God's Church. Same male gender sex relationships are abominations.
I WAS confused when I was a part of the Worldwide Church of God and later CGI. I no longer feel confused. Like you, there was a time when I believed the things which you now believe. I was deceived then, as were the folks who taught them to me. In the hopes of rescuing more of my brothers and sisters or preventing others from falling into the same ditch, I will continue to refute the teachings of my former culture. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the track record of these groups (hint: it isn't good). Also, Jesus Christ once said: "And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell." Jesus was, however, fond of pointing out hypocrisy and insincerity in religious leaders (so, I guess I'm in pretty good company on that score). Finally, it is a mark of crassness and cruelty that you find humor and righteousness in COG Catholic's remarks. Kindness and compassion are fruits of the Holy Spirit. If you really have it, may I suggest that you try harder to follow its guidance.
I dunno, Lonnie. Jesus was pretty blunt with the religious leaders of the day. True love is calling out perverted behavior. If you are shocked by that, so be it.
Lonnie, my friend, you may not "be a democrat" but you tend to respond negatively when a Republican is praised. And, you know better than taking the word of a leftist to explain why Trump has support.
So, in an attempt to refute my point about Christ's preaching, you cite an occasion where Christ refers to Herod as a "fox" (a cunning person). LOL!
It looks to me like when Lonnie says "entangling with this world's politics", some folks are misinterpreting his use of the verb, as if the gang at CGI just shouldnt be commenting on news items.
Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think that's what he means?
(As for CGI themselves, the few times I have read Watson's material, it's pretty badly executed stuff. It's as if he's just reciting garbage from social media memes - an even lazier effort than the QAnon-derived drivel PCG puts out.)
We've all heard the rhetorical question regarding God creating a rock so big and ao heavy that even He could not lift it. Well, here's a little hypothetical quiz for the rabid prolifers: If medical science could pre-verify genetically that a baby was going to be born as an hermaphrodite, or gay, would you be in favor of aborting that fetus???
Anon 5:30:
Rabid pro-lifer here.
The only option in that challenging hypothetical scenario is:
Do not murder the baby.
(That's always the answer.)
When does life begin? When God created Adam.
I am a rational pro-life person. I believe that life begins at conception, but I also understand that some of my brothers and sisters in Christ see it differently and will be judged by God based on their understanding and the dictates of their own individual consciences. Some folks read that "the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature." For them, at the moment that the baby breathes its first breath, it becomes a living creature. Their belief is based in Scripture, and who am I (or you) to impose my (your) understanding or the dictates of my (your) conscience on them? From a scientific perspective, they go on to point out that God/nature aborts many more pregnancies than people ever have (spontaneous vs therapeutic).
I would also add, however, that the Roman Catholic stance on life is more consistent than the conservative Protestant one. They approach the entire subject of life from the perspective that humans simply do not possess the right or prerogative to terminate human life. In other words, they also oppose the death penalty. This is less dissonant, more consistent, than the approach that supports the death penalty but opposes abortion.
Thus, while my own understanding and conscience would not permit me to participate in an abortion, it would also be repugnant to me to impose the dictates of my understanding and conscience on others. Let each person be fully persuaded in his/her own mind. After all, we will all stand before the Judgment seat to give account of our individual choices/decisions/behaviors. From a Scriptural perspective, I will answer for me, and you will answer for you. And, finally, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ sweeps away every sin of which we repent.
I offered up that hypothetical as a conundrum, because most pro-lifers also have strong beliefs in other areas. They believe that God does not allow people to be born gay, yet there is a related example to the contrary. Statistically, a fixed percentage of babies are born with ambiguous genitalia leading the doctors to make their best guesses with surgical corrections. This is actually somewhat common. In fact we all probably know some people who fall into that category. Should these people be allowed to get married, or participate in love making? Most likely some don't even realize that surgery was performed on them.
There are also extreme conservatives who believe that multi-racial babies are a mistake.
Here's a question for those folks. Will multi-racial persons then be healed, and made single race in the Millennium or Kingdom? If so, which way will the healing go? Light or dark? I just bet that I know the answer to that already, but let's see.
Very excellent post, 9:46
This site is not all bad, despite many COGers thinking so.
If there ever is a Kingdom, 8:08, I think there will be a lot of surprises for everyone. Speculation is taught as being fact, and the ministers make calls that only God can make. Many of the people in the ACOGs do not have their own personalities any more. It has been replaced by one that fits the corporate culture, iow, they've been assimilated by the borg, and think as they are told to think.
One thing the RCC has going for it is it's belief in the sanctity of life. I can remember, however, way back when, if a problem developed during childbirth they would let the mother die. Saving the baby was the top priority. That is backwards. I don't know if they still hold to that, but I suspect they do.
"They believe that God does not allow people to be born gay, yet there is a related example to the contrary. Statistically, a fixed percentage of babies are born with ambiguous genitalia leading the doctors to make their best guesses with surgical corrections."
Both are birth defects. Using physical defects to justify coddling for the mental defect does not work. Homosexuality can be cured, and it will be in the future. Coddling and protecting it only makes things worse, for the person and for society as a whole. There is a reason God said to kill them.
"Coddling" LOL!
https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2024/05/youthey-are-wicked-and-iwe-are-righteous.html
Look, 7:27. There's got to be a better understanding and way of interacting than what has been presented by Armstrongism, and some of the other Christian religions.
Back not too long ago, the Puritans had irrational beliefs about those who were born left handed. Parents with left-handed children actually attempted to correct that natural dominance, not realizing that that's the way the child's brain was hard-wired. They ended up causing a life time of problems for their child which were totally avoidable. I know that's not apples to apples, because parents never worried about their right-handed children being seduced into left-handedness. But, the illustration is close enough that most of us can understand the point behind it.
Had a left handed uncle who was forced to use his right hand as a child. I'm not saying theres a direct correlation, but out of the nine children, he had the most pronounced mental issues.
Hendrix wrote and shot pool right handed. Known as a left handed player, he could actually play guitar left handed or right handed, but his father, Al, always harshly corrected him for playing left handed. Al thought it was the mark of the devil. Mike Bloomfield did the opposite, played right handed when he was actually left handed. And, although that is interesting, I relate it fully realizing that both men had issues which resulted in their premature deaths.
For a lead guitarist to use their dominant hand on the fretboard actually makes sense, because that's the activity which requires the most dexterity. It's an interesting exercise in the ways in which we can use our dominance most effectively. Back in the '80s when I was an avid student of the martial arts, we were trained to switch stances from right to left as part of our forms, and in sparring. It confused the hell out of your garden variety street fighter who always fought from his dominant stance. Martial arts training gives one many cross-over skills which apply to life in general.
I wonder what the Puritans might have thought of Kwai Chang Caine.
BB
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