Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!
With all the new crazy self-appointed Chief Overseers, Apostles, Prophets, Pharisees, legalists, and outright liars leading various Churches of God today, it is important to hold these agents of deception accountable.
Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
What Is The Story Behind Herbert Armstrong's Visits With World Leaders?
Herbert Armstrong, a leader of a small church denomination,
obtained audiences with over 300 world leaders from 1968-1985.
This is the first video in a series examining these meetings,
and seeing what relevance they still might hold for today.
139 comments:
Anonymous
said...
Him stating near the beginning that he came to realize that he was worshipping the church is unsurprising. It was the church culture. Herb's name was heard much more often from the podium than Christ's name. It was typically "do you agree with HWA" or "that particular member doesn't agree with HWA." Herb was the ultimate reference point rathan than Christ or the bible. It's no wonder that the church fragmented when "god" Herb died.
Just more evidence Herb fulfilled Daniel 8:23-25? Again, repeating, that just won't be believed until almost all the words are checked with the Hebrew. A "king" is simply a leader - cf Prov 30:27. "Destroy" can be "corrupt". Etc.
He was an egotistical narcissist, but we all know that. He paid he way into those interviews with the members tithe money, and we were duped into believing he was “spreading the gospel.” Yes, the Gospel of Herbert W Armstrong.
It's no wonder that the church fragmented when "god" Herb died>
The church workers/ministers worked diligently to so elevate uncle herb as you well describe little did they know they were creating the foundation for the demise of the fake one true church
Today no one has heard of HWA. He is a total unknown. But idolised by the almost invisible cog Armstrong remanent. His ‘visits’ achieved nothing except photo opportunities for the ‘faithful’. And are not proof that he was an apostle. His legacy has disappeared and its few remaining outposts are almost dead. Yet many are coming to faith in Christ unencumbered with the luggage of Armstrongism and its myths. In that we can rejoice.
As church members, we were schooled to expect for the end times "apostle" something like what happened during the first century. Jesus and the leading disciples/apostles were dragged into the presence of the leaders and authority figures of that day, both Jewish and Roman ones. These authorities didn't propose toasts for them, introduce them to other world leaders, or orchestrate receptions for them.
We are nearly hardwired to expect serendipitous situations to lead to some sort of momentous conclusion. What was that of HWA? He wrote of being present at the meetings initializing the United Nations. If he were indeed one of the authors of globalism, that would have been rather odd, because of his prophecies and beliefs regarding the Beast and his one world government, a theocracy led by the Catholic Church.
I really don't believe we will ever fully understand HWA. He was very selective in what he shared with his dumb sheep. Decades after his death, with millions of words attempting to describe him, he remains an enigma. We don't know what he was doing. We only know what he did to us!
BB
By the way, did this video presentation just put a face on nck???
His foreign travels and meetings with heads of state, despots and dictators were less valuable than tits on a boar hog. The only thing they accomplished were to inflate his ego and drum up propaganda for some of the ministry to shovel out. It was literally hundreds of millions of dollars thrown away.
Looking back it’s surprising he ever gained influence as he was a religious con man peddling lies much like those peddling elixirs in the western movies I watch
The story behind these visits is a simple one. Egoism. Plus the luxury lifestyle as staying in each national capital herb and the hangers on booked the best hotel in town. Don’t need to look much beyond this. The gospel he write about (“”not about Christ”) can be known to be very different to that in the Bible with just a simple bible study. Thus, these exercises in vanity had nothing whatsoever to do with preaching the gospel. Let’s call it plainly.
The video shows HWA oftalking to the former president of Egypt about peace. Where is the peace in a church that's a cult? Where's the peace in a snitch culture with members spying on one another, and Gestapo ministers having the right to verbally bash their members? Herb didn't practice what he preached.
A true story: a friend at services told me that he was invited to another members house for dinner. He found a tape recorder under the dinner table.
''..He found a tape recorder under the dinner table''.
There never was the peace Jesus spoke of: '' But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe''.
herbies little gestapo just mouthed his empty propaganda
I have no doubt the story about the tape recorder under the table was true. I remember my dad and mom being suddenly befriended by a couple in Worldwide after several years of attendance and the guy telling my dad " it was a good thing that the previous minister( Ken Martin) was transferred because he was "getting too big for his britches." My dad agreed with him, mostly just going along with his conversation. A few weeks later, my dad was confronted by the local NKVD assistant deacon wannabe, saying there was rumors he said our former pastor was needing to be transferred and "causing discord" My dad was pissed and went looking for this "narc" and confronted his wormy butt in the men's room. I don't think my father attended but maybe about a year before leaving after this.
"By the way, did this video presentation just put a face on nck???'
Hi BB,
Indeed, over the years I did adress all of the things mentioned in the videos and even much more that were not publicized but rather in the local newspapers..in China or the Philipines.
Being trained for the diplomatic corps and having access to even some of the local documents behind (not so much HWA's itinerary alone) but rather the exact political situation, framework and map of the visits, (for instance Japans State Department Policy Papers on the relationship with Israel and the Arab world in the 1960's. The importance of Okinawa both military but especially culturally (as we are currently experiencing in our entanglemnts with the Chinese) I have usually pointed at that they were not "just" photo ops and for the interested just said to "follow the GII flypath" as people never asked me questions but on this blog rather questioned my postings.
So I'm not going the "narrative 3"version which adresses Rothschilds, Bilderbergers, Rotary etc etc. I am the narrative 4 version which has on an academic level studied real power, real leaders, real challenges and real policy roadmaps foreward for this world under American leadership until 1990....when US decline set in in rapid pace.
Although I deny that HWA was ever in the employ of, paid for, or had any contact with me (kidding kidding....I did meet him) it is extremely difficult to either find or train people with his exceptional talents.......(as is proven in the video and the way he adresses a man who leads armies and leads one of the largest populaces on earth and of course was the recipient of the largest share of American Foreign aid at the time....(of course GTA also had some sort of friendly relationship with his British Wife....but never the huge motorcade that HWA would receive.
I once witnessed in one of the richest countries of the world that even the announcement of the GII coming would have the nation prepare a police motorcade which the local Pastor/Regional Director raised by HWA himself, being totally embarassed did not deem necessary, AS EVEN HE DID NOT KNOW WHO HE WAS DEALING WITH IN THE MANNER THAT THE LOCAL AUTHORITIES KNEW.......so the Pastor embarrassed as he was did allow the Local Offer to let the arrival party drive on the RUNWAY to pick HwA up.
This video fellow starts at 1968.....however one must realize that already in 1947 HWA was meeting with the House of Saud when the Church only had about 1500 members............
Its hard to admit how good A Friend a Quaker can be...
They sent a mock up of "Human Potential' (later Quest) to the Director of the CIA George Bush with a request to submit an article wit a topic of his choosing for the first real Edition. Bush had to deny because of his extremely busy schedule.
He could have chosen any topic yet specified was to write something about development in China.
This exact topic is what made Robert Kuhn one of the most influential westerners to influence the development of modern china..........as I saw advertised on chinese state television to my sheer astonishment when I was flipping channels in a shabby hotel in Central Asia.
A certain little church out in Eugene, Oregon bows at his feet. Read their letters, and listen to their messages; you'd wonder who was more important, Herbert or Christ?
I wondered about nck as well with this post. The video is pretty remarkable I admit, but I don’t think he was an agent. Maybe he wanted to develop a different narrative as, inter alia, 1) the incest scandal was coming out in the 70’s, 2) he had already missed with his 1972 prophecy, and 3) his changes to the divorce/remarriage doctrine when he decided to marry a much younger divorcee himself. If he didn’t skip town for long periods and create an image of a special guy meeting world leaders to overwhelm the narrative of his personal sins, his house of cards would have fallen much more readily as he would have had to answer more questions. Instead he could frame those questioners as deceivers trying to destroy the work. In hindsight his “work” came to nothing as he is largely not remembered and he never changed or brought Christ to any of these leaders he met.
Some have commented or wondered about HWA having been an "employed agent".
How would that match with others having noticed that he was "uneducated".
I can honestly testify that HWA was not able to tell more about a country like Switzerland than what any American could tell after seeing "The Sound of Music" and not realizing the setting in Austria, also HWA was not able to explain what "Exxon" was......although he did know all the 1930 names of the companies. Also he did not even know how to interview a man whose family had ruled Europe for over a 1000 years, rather than sticking to his own ideas about The Beastpower.
Yet HWA would be the perfect man to recruit since actually not many operatives know that they are actually working for "The Work"......as they are just pursuing their own goals that.....somehow miraculously seem to be in sync with "The Powers that Be."
Living the Christian life, in many ways a "day in - day out" routine , that is not necessarily all that sexy. Embracing the disciplines and habits of a good life is not always all that exciting, similar to working out or running on the treadmill, and doing so for your whole life, year after year.
HWA knew that he had to create "DRAMA" to keep people on the "edge of their seats" , amped up and engaged to be centered on him and his narcissistic needs. Thus you had a church that had the drama of 1972 coming and then failing, When that failed, reimagined and pivoted to the AICF and the "Ambassador for World Peace", thrown in with lots of internal church politics , receiverships , and more.
The splinters still try to create the drama to maintain the control. However, just like any drug, it takes more and more to create the "HIGH", or even to just maintain not having a withdrawal. Thus you have a guy like Pack that has to "up the dosage" more and more. At some point, the junkie either has to stop, or the amount needed to get you high will kill you. In the spiritual sense, this is what indeed happens.
Ya know, nck, I and others have often complained that those in the ACOGs fail to accept carefully researched, factual materials which are presented here. Materials which counter and disprove things that they believe. So, how can I do that with this, and why would I want to make myself guilty of doing the exact same thing as I witness others doing? Best policy in life is always to maintain intellectual honesty.
Up until now, I had actually believed that these meetings were photo ops. That is what I had believed back in the time frame in which they had been originally unfolding. In fact, I believed that HWA and his handlers had invented or pioneered "Evangelistic Payola". It is possible for us to realize that the man was wrong in so many ways, yet still had the talent and charisma to be influential on the world stage. Those two schools of thought are not mutually exclusive of one another.
I don't accept the point of view that HWA's meeting with world leaders was nothing more than paid photo ops. If I was a political or business leader, I would read up on what HWA believed and stood for before agreeing to meet with him. World leaders must have asked their security agencies to fill them in on the man. They knew a lot more about him than just his diplomatic "a strong hand from somewhere" mantra.
It was Herbert W. Armstrong's own spoiled, fucking, rebellious brat Garner Ted Armstrong who tried to minimize what his own father HWA had done by calling HWA's visits to many important world leaders over the years “photo ops.”
About the only thing that Garner Ted could get meetings with was masseuses like Suerae Robertson that he had to pay and who then secretly videotaped GTA's bad behavior so it could appear on television news. What a “photo op” that was!!!
Herbert was a unusual combination of good AND evil. He spoke often in sermons of the two trees but was himself a hedy mix of both. How and why he aspired and acquired such meetings all his adult life is not really going to help Christians in walking with God and keeping themselves unspotted by the world. But it is a clear marker that many baby boomers cannot and will not put the man to rest, either to worship him or deride him. Inheriting in an strange manner his personality of good and evil...and not Jesus Christ's character of goodness..
Anonymous at 1:16, it was not just GTA that minimized HWA's foreign trips, it was several others who were in Worldwide after GTA's ousting plus several of his own family & entourage that have told the real happenings hidden behind the curtains. Have you ever read Jack Kessler's letter or read old articles about HWA donating $100 thousand dollars to the Royal Opera House of London just so he could rub elbows with Prince Charles? I don't see any similarity to that and the acts of Paul or Peter or any of the REAL apostles of the past. If anything HWA's own actions and behaviors helped contribute to minimizing himself.
I have followed this blog for years and continue to be amazed at the lies and yarns spun by nck. His writing is riddled with grammatical fallacies and spelling errors, yet he has claimed over and over again to be highly educated, a trained diplomat, a world traveler, yada yada yada. This is someone with a serious Walter Mitty complex in need of robust mental health counseling. That some readers of this blog seem to place credibility in him boggles my mind.
7:09, Can you actually contribute evidence (other than conjecture and reasoning) which would impeach what was presented in the video?
It's not as if acknowledging these meetings would require you to keep the sabbath or quit eating pork chops! Apples and oranges there.
Nck first outlined this material several years ago and presented it here in his comments. Now we have a second witness, apparently independent of and, until yesterday, unknown to nck.
It is generally a major event when a commoner gets to have a personal conversation with a single member of royalty, or president of a nation. 300 is phenomenal. These people did not report HWA as a buffoon or scammer to one another, they actually provided recommendations on his behalf to their fellows or peers.
Make no mistake, I consider HWA to be a false prophet, and his religious teachings heresy. But this is involvement in two diverse fields, similar to the case of Brian May, world acclaimed guitar virtuoso from the band Queen, who is also an astrophysicist.
In the past I found the continuing focus on HWA annoying. Since it was the Church (that is us) who had provided the funding. So when people said "there is no lasting impact of our funds" I got really annoyed since there is.
For example this June 18 commenting fellow was not in my bed in Central Asia when I was flipping channels on chinese tv. So if he is boggled by my statement or believes I am lying he is a nutcase, I could even look up the advertisements stating Kuhn being the most important westerner influencing China over the past decades.
So regarding China. a) Japan and US fighter jets scramble from Okinawa to protect the Pacific. HWA got his famous medal why????) Because the emperor recognized his actions regarding the transfer of occupied Okinawa back to Japan.
So "we" sponsored one of the first Chinese Chairs at the University of Oxford. Did influence a huge number of people. Probably not but it got China a foothold at one of the most prestigious institutions of the Western World at a time when its economy was no stronger than Austria.
So Japan built ties with Israeli (nuclear) companies through HWA's efforts at a time when they were 100 percent oil (Arab) dependent. Thats also why they paid for the first Gulf War to liberate Kuwait which the USA ended with a huge profit. (Guess what plane had flown Japanese Diet members all over Kuwait and the Gulf States a decade before the Gulf War.
Did I mention the Church's pledge to support Marcos'his agricultural reform scheme in the Philipines at the largest military base of that nation with all military and political leaders present. The Philipines you know that nation that had most CIA listening stations at the time.
So 'we'sponsored a British Opera Hall. Millions of people have profited from that "nudging". As people and video guy are focussing on the meeting and opp with Prince Charles.......They are fully missing the point that the meeting was with the Rothchilds wich "we"were involved at at various digs in Israel. (as the R. family had sponsored the founding of most of Israels institutions like Hebrew University or the Knesset building for that matter.....
So one of these South American countries had a "Japanese President"??? So round about 2006 the Japanese Minister of Technology and Education had also studied at AC?????
100.000 dollars might in this day and age not sound like a lot of money. However, some 15 years before the gift to Israeli education center, Arthur Rubinstein was charging 3 dollars for tickets.
So 100.000 for the start up World Wild Life Fund may not sound like a large sum. Yet as any founder or entrepreneur knows. the first 100.000 dollars a company receives are about a million times more important than the millions of dollars the company makes as a going concern.
So Japan through the efforts of the AICF sponsored Kenya's agriculture school. Serving hundres of millions of people arount the world .........as a you are sipping your tea.
So no, not a singe person in the world may remember HWA. Yet many of the institutions that were nudged by "us'are still up and running.
ah 2 more. One of the most prestigious scientific prizes in one of the most advanced countries of the world still lists HWA and Rader as its founders and awards scientists to this day.
Yes HWA bought his Doctor Juris degree in California......Yet the research that this money bought is significant for Constitutional Law to this day....perhaps even more important than ever.
The "Mediation" process in Law sponsored by AICF in its initial stages is now huge in the USA.
The sponsoring of David Nivens foundation for that specific disease I can't remember. Huge breakthroughs for he cariers of that disease....
Tuesday, June 18, 2024 at 10:46:00 PM PDT = speaks my mind
One more thing. I did mention that HWA already met the House of Saud in 1947 when the Church had about 1500 members or perhaps a bit more.
But this thing goes even before HWA as Haile Selassies father who was also American just as the King of Thailand was an American Citizen, just as Jordanian Royalty and Sadat's wife were/are British (hint hint hint BI politics)
......Haile Selassies father visited the Church of God seventh day while in the USA.
So it was at the Ethiopian residence of Haile Selassie that the Ambassadors recommended HWA to the Chinese goverment........which at that time was only playing Ping Pong with Kissinger.....
So what about HWA flying straight from the South African minister of Foreign Affairs to Israel extending "greetings.......Of course the South African Nuclear weapons provided by the Israeli have since then been returned........yet this is Cold War Spiel better than fiction.
Yes HWA was the first person to ever fly from an Arab Nation straigth to Jerusalem......instead of Tel Aviv.
The funniest thing ever when the GII flew straight from Damascus to Amman through the Jordan Valley with Israeli on one wing and Syrian Mig on the other......2 countries at war.
Many Ambassadors commenting that HWA achieved more goodwill for the USA in the countries of their stationing than they could have in their official capacities......
So the most insignificant and poorest countries ever like Nepal and Bhutan.....and people harping on this blog about HWA giving away our money to Kiwani elites.
Yet, just have a look at your google map and see that these nations are stationed exactly in between the large upcoming superpowers China and India, that needed to be swayed to our "way of living" and admit it .......non of you ever saw the size of the US Embassy in Nepal as relative to its "geopolitical significance through its location.....
And "five eyes" is to the 1990's what US&BIP was in the '60's.
I can guarantee you if someone from the CIA or state department had met with HWA with the idea of using him as a conduit for information that after they had met & evaluated HWA himself they would have put the kibosh on that idea as he would have failed the qualifications and the necessary talents one needs to possess as a possible unofficial. agent. They would have soon concluded he lacked the honesty and that his main underlying goal of his actions was attention for himself. Kanye West would be more reliable that HWA. He might blather about peace yet he could not get along in peace with Ramona or members of his own family.
I don't know Nck, but it is not hard to fabricate connections from coincidental events or bolster up the importance of related (even causal) events. This does not require lying or bad intent, but we see these "conspiracy theories" all the time. Some may be true or have truth within them, but even the Kardashians created a furor around them simply by growing their celebrity. HWA used money and gifts (including the projects ambassador students served on) to bend the ear of smaller leaders, got his name on multiple institutions that he donated to, thus he became more and more known. His charisma seemed effective on some of the leaders and fell flat on others. He was viewed over time as relatively harmless and was allowed access and the leaders always appreciated gifts/money.
If HWA was knowingly used as an agent, I also believe that with his narcissism and ego, this would not have been kept quiet. Aaron Dean and many others would not have kept it quiet.
Not bad at all. 2 rules 1) Follow the money 2) whom does it serve
If you have a chance to visit In UN Headquarters in NYC. Have a look at the painting where all the builders are building One World from fragmented pieces. If you are more into entertainment there's fun movies like Charlie Wilson's War or "The boat that Rocks"..... Just nice entertainment.
Now back to the show. Remember when we paid 10000 dollars for tickets to fly Dr Siingh to Japan for some critical support for the World Court
I was educated by judges on the 1947 Tokyo Tribunal and it was India that presented the dissenting opinions at that particular "American" Trial. rendering the Tribunal dead.
Now it was payback time for Japan and join the new International Order early seventies.
I believe the topic of HWA is way over your head as you may be blindsided by the religious tenets of the enigma...
1143 writes, "if HWA was knowing used as an agent"??? I guess that's the million dollar question.
I've read a lot of strange speculation in times past regarding HWA and his handlers, Rader, Kuhn and Gotah. I too am curious how much HWA actually knew about what was really going on or if he was just being used to accomplish someone else's agenda. Rader's Wikipedia page seems to indicate HWA was just a stooge on a vanity trip during these times while Rader was calling the shots and answering to a higher power.
Years ago I stumbled across a couple of articles where both Armstrongs were implicated with satanically influenced sources. One is titled, " Satanist Insider Exposes His Heros" by Aloysius Fozdyke (henrymakow.com, Feb.2, 2022).
After going through a long list of names, Fozdyke (the insider) thanks "H.W. and G.T. Armstrong for showing the way and the Hillsong church."
What "the way" means is not explained or discussed, although Fozdyke in this and other articles presents himself as a Chinese sympathizer who believes China is the ultimate model for the coming New World Order.
Another article from Jan. 3, 2010, edited by Fozdyke, "Australian Adept Unveiled World Satanic Control in 2004" records an explosive deathbed confession by Peter Naragonan, aka Frater 616, that "reveals the pervasive worldwide power of organized Satanism, which was synonymous with the illuminati".
Frater explains "he got involved in a satanic group in university in 1971, which consisted of the most educated, wealthy and corrupt people to have ever existed, and their influence was international". A partial list of past and influential members included
" J.P. Morgan, Drs. James McDonald and Rene Hady, the Kennedy's, Irvin Berlin, Groucho Marx, Elvis Presley, GARNER TED ARMSTRONG, Sammy Davis Jr., Ronald Reagan, Edmond Heath, the Bush's, George Lucas, Steven Spielberg, and Gerald Ford". (henrymakow. com. Sept. 30, 2021).
What this all means I can't say, but Remember, I'm just the messenger, and I'm giving this the way I found it. It's either a complete smear job or someone thought enough of the Armstrong's contribution to an agenda to mention them by name. Who really knows?
The booklet "The Wonderful World Tomorrow" exactly predicts Chinese model for the world to come. All the Uigurs and Tibetan and eventually Americans as nice culrural elements, yet fully succumbing to technologically monitored and clean society... reports by the big five consultancy firms spearhead by Kuhn influencing Chinese top leaders the past 25 years.
Very interesting in this regard listening to the tapes with Raderand Armstrong adressing the Chinese leadership yet for sure not critizing their model.... of course everyone who has studied at a western university understanding the "strong invisible hand from some place" as a reference to capitalism bringing the change. State Capitalism in this case. Hell, even my high school buddies started yelping about the "invisible hand" at our reunion, imitating our funny economics teacher.
Well, nck, if what you are saying has any large amount of truth in it, then it is assuredly over my head as I have not read up on Rader, yet I simply think there is a large amount of fiction in this. Intuitively, it simply doesn't seem plausible that HWA was a knowing agent. He claimed too many things for himself that were the work of others, so, I simply cannot see him keeping this to himself. He would have been claiming he was both witnesses.
At June 18: 8:03 I specifically stated that HWA did not know much about anything.... except the religion he certainly believed in..... Since the rise of the American Empire was the exact fulfillment of the promises in his youth. What did the Romans know about the rise and fall of their Empire except that it was, that they were selling wine and fish in it and that it was great? What does the oil know about the engine?
Little did that Turkish guy that shot the Pope know about KGB involvement and steering, rather than his own motives. When you do the typing at work, what do you know about the owners or investors strategic plans for the company and it's planned merger or coming layoffs the next year? HWA did not know more about Switzerland in his sermons than any average kid. Or Syria, except that.... "they" brought some great ideas to him....
As compared to the great Empires of Britain, France, Germany, Austria, HWA was born in a mediocre non influential agricultural country. Simple Plain, but with an indomitable spirit to grow in size and power.
HWA died in the unrivaled Superpower of all ages, all powerful, almighty, yet "benevolent". Like Moses he died just before we entered the promised land of the '90s.
The booklet "modern Romans" provides a clue as to the utopia of his youth as compared to the moral rot of power. As a Roman nonetheless HWA fulfilled the particular double role of Mercurius. The messenger. The messenger of the gods, the messenger bringong trade.
For example the Greek visit. 1)church members would see "the taking of the gospel to Greece 2) tradesman would see the" unseen hand of economics through monetary policy the world's single superpower and a representative of the 7th economic power being the Rotary club of the State of California. 3) Policy makers would see an American visiting the elites at a critical junction in time where they had to decide on joining the EU,shouting and yelling that if they would not join their country would he destroyed either by nuclear weapons or economically.
So what do you do when the Gods threaten annihilation or trade........ That's the American way, that's Armstrong Promise to the core, that is what BI is. nck
Too many see being an 'cia' or 'government' operative as a James Bond Or mission impossible life. Looking at history that's not how they always operate. Herbert was highly intelligent and like him or loathe him had active courage at times. But he had weaknesses that could be used in manipulation either conscious or unconscious to even him.
It is established fact that hollywood level actors and entertainment 'stars' also had been used at various times by the cia. It is not a conspiracy theory to at least consider how the government leaders of various departments may have viewed Herbert Armstrong to their own advantage.
Exactly Wednesday, June 19, 2024 at 10:49:00 PM PDT
99,9% of what is being said of World Economic Forum or Bilderbergers is untrue. Yet still we have the most influential people on earth "coordinating their thoughts on topics."
When I spoke to the marketing executives of the Big Corporations it was the closest ever to Prophecy as to what food the people around me would eat the next couple of months, or where the oil would be drilled the next 30 years.
These are the people that depend on "foreknowledge" and make it.......
So when one sees him yelling at the Greek, Egyptian, Japanese or Chinese elites about nuclear destruction and annihilation......
Are we seeing Mathew C. Perry? Are we seeing Mercury the Messenger of the Gods? Are we seeing the ideas man for the Chicago Chamber of Commerce journal?? Are we seeing an Apostle bringing the Prosperity Gospel?
Hey, nck. Would you describe HWA as being an early globalist? All of our post WW-II presidents from a certain point forward until a brief intermission from 2017 to 2021, were very gung ho globalists. Do you feel as if HWA via his travels and meetings might have augmented that? Nixon opening up China, etc?
BB... HWA was an impressionable young man when Wilson was President.
Study Wilson a bit more. This was also the time of the League of Nations. Also the time of Carnegies initiatives on World Peace and the World Court.
The (late 19th century) mediocre farming nation USA was setting its baby steps on the world stage. Very interesting to see the political parties adapting from isolationism to internationalism early 1900
HWA worked for the Chicago Chamber of Commerce - journal) Very interesting institution, still the place where world agricultural prices are established.
He was the ideas guy for the "commerce journal" interviewing the top guys at say Ford Motor Company..... Looking for economies of scale, export markets. Hell, California was the 7th economic power in the world...... Some Rotary Club to be a member of. And of course his formative years getting acquainted with internationalist literature in his uncles printing house.... Socialism preached that no German Workers should fight French workers or American blue collars. Of course this model failed might Ely at WWI. So a new better and improved model for (quaker) non violence world peace was needed.
Edward Bernays, the father of marketing transferred the "pursuit of happiness" to the model of consumerism at the the 1939 NY "World Tomorrow" Fair.
HWA was the very incarnation of the secular route the world was going to take after WW2 under American leadership.
The very incarnation.... Or as the Lebanese President called HWA.... A navigator for world leaders.......
But simple Plain HWA would only say..... I was born in the days of horse and carriage and now live in the Age of airplanes....... and recognized that man had remained the same regardless of technological advances..... So the Quest for a model to have people live in harmony continued...... As Edward Bernays as the first public Relation man had endeavors earlier in the 1920's.
So...... a strong"invisible hand"is something all (free market) economists, nuclear deterrent politicians, and religion ist come together and can agree on.
Today however we see some criticism on the flaws by the greens and sanders etc etc etc
Seems like HWA was a brilliant man of his times who fucked us all over with his original message in order to gain traction and get his "real" message out to those he considered to be his true peers.
Hard for us to love him, but apparently world leaders had plenty of love for him.
10:39 Thats the easy way out. The hardest thing to face is that he might just have genuinely believed every word he said and thing he did and as he often said used every talent and experience he had gained to bring it about (which is the Quaker core creed as adopted in general American culture) ...... and that that genuine belief was the exact reason we believed it too.....
There is still one thing I just cannot get past. Having given credit where credit is due, and having written all that I did above, that someone could come in on top of all of these authority figures, getting ear time from them, and motivating them as he apparently did, that still puts HWA at the top of my personal shit list!!! Many of them were hardly empaths, or altruistic. They were his fellow narcissists, his fellow "government from the top down/my way or the highway" types. Can any of us envision what the New World Order would be like if HWA had been these leaders' unanimous choice as its leader? You see, I believe most of us can extrapolate and envision that, and it would be a tremendously ugly, dangerous picture. Maybe if he had properly understood the concept of grace, it would have been different. They would have belatedly realized that he was programmed to rule with a fist of iron. Gassing a crowd to disburse them for a photo op with a Bible in front of an historic church wouldn't even be noteworthy!
I think Armstrong was a true believer in his role as the mighty instrument God was using on earth. I believe he accepted his own hypocrisy and perversion as secondary to his elite role as the anticipated restorer of true christianity for which the world had been waiting for almost 1900 years. He's been dead and largely forgotten now for almost 40 years. A little Ozymandius exposed and reviled by most than whitewashed and respected by a few.
Sounds like the experience of any European, working in some sort of middle management position for an American company, especially in sales, banking, finance or both... "although the pay was good".....
I know most non American Nato military feel the same about American leadership style, leaving little room for personal thinking on a problem to be solved being bullies. and of course we need to be thankful to have the power that they represent around.......
Even or especially as a kid I realized everything about WCG's Governing model was wrong and only mitigated because the great man himself was still alive. Since his presence enforced both the good and the bad.
The only exception is the Singaporese semi dictatorial model. I guess, that is why Asians and HWA had mutual respect for their work ethic, governance model and quality control and the Malayan leaders even had their kids sent to Ambassador.
Some one wrote that HWA's ego and narcissism would have given himself away if he was used as an informal government agent. I agree with this completely. I don't know if anyone remembers both I remember the almost mandatory standing ovations that took place whenever he was announced at the Feast of Tabernacles, especially after 1978 and GTA's departure. He then proceeded to speak of all his great accomplishments & name drop world leaders and repeat himself and stumble thru a 2 hour sermon that had already went extra with the sermonette and "special music" I can tell you with 100% certainty that neither the Carter or Reagan administration would have touched the old pedophile with a 10 foot pole. It still is beyond comprehension the idolatry and exaltaion of HWA. He really tried to de-emphasize Christ and elevate himself.
Why do people comment who never studied either Foreign Policy Papers on Carters directives to the State Department or the former Governor of California's (Reagan) cabal express rallying of the Religious Right to get him elected as the President during the time WTM telecast arbitron ratings were highest ever.
Just do not even try since it is immediately clear you know nothing about either Reagan or Carters Policy making, Foreign Affairs or even how the public was mobilized to even vote for the.It's sad to read.your dumb comment.
Yes. Faith. That's what I said. Faith and hope propels humanity forward.... Elon Musk proves that every day with his endeavor to fulfill Herbert W. Armstrong promise that ultimately..... Mam would inherit Space..... - DNA being the immortal part of man.... HWA's promises will come to pass.... since he was only the messenger of the gods.... Nck
1:57 To even begin to describe the nuttiness of 1:57'remark. I mean the allegation he poses was only publicized in the most minor of local newspapers....... while the real dough during the receivers hip was surpressed by "friends" at the real press... The LA Times...
Because tone is not conveyed well it might have sounded as if I (Anon 2:04 above) believed Armstrong's claims. I certainly do not. Here is the same post with a few edits:
"I think Armstrong was a true believer in his delusion that he was the mighty instrument God was using on earth. I believe he accepted his own hypocrisy and perversion as secondary to his elite role as the anticipated restorer of true christianity for which the world had been waiting for almost 1900 years. He's been dead and largely forgotten now for almost 40 years. He was a little Ozymandias exposed and reviled by most and whitewashed and respected by a deluded few."
Nck,
it is hard to simply accept something merely because you say so. You may just be a gifted creative type that formulates a narrative with some facts strung together with your conjecture and imagination. I know referencing documents can be a drag for the claims you make, but you've got to do some of that or there is simply no reason to accept any part of what you are saying. I think you have in the past said you are a lawyer, so you know how necessary it is to provide facts to back up what you are saying.
Aw, what's wrong with a good cigarette in moderation, now and again? Still haven't opened my carton of Newports which I bought for election night!
Axially, some of the closet smokers in the old WCG were counted as worthy to be spared the horrors of the tribulation! (Assuming there is such a thing, but again, we'll know for sure on election night).
9:42 I have no intention whatsoever to present a case on this forum to a bunch of anons.
I do however present a narrative that for 80 percent can very easily be verified through open sources.
The moment I notice that a person at least acknowledges the easily verifiable 80 percent factual information and asks an intelligent question on the remaining "nckian conjecture" I might just put the effort in to answer that.
However since I was ready to do that 10 years ago and had the sources readily available, my absence here for years shows that I am not much inclined to find my source material again. I mean I'm 10 comments I mentioned so many stories. But hey... perhaps.. I'm a nice guy.
12:47 The Church of God bulletin South Dakota in the 1870's explicitly called out an old lady for smoking a pipe.... So No, don't do it.
Another thing in the 1910*s was the discouraging of members visiting the icerink....
A couple of years ago I saw a documentary about these icerink entertainment places and knew what occurred, but I forgot. I know there are academic papers on the topic.... Akin to people addicted to computer games...
Nobody has any business smoking in a society where no one drinks common tap water from the faucet anymore. They all require bottled water now, so what in tarnation are they doing smoking.
Well if the WCG smokers were spared from this 'n that, then why didn't El Presidio Apostolico HWA just tell everyone to follow Paul's word in Philippians 1:23 & chuck it, & go for the Jim Jones kool-aid too? Why waste time in a bad world if smokers are all leaving town early.
I dont know what kind of skunk weed somebody is smoking but after the Jonestown massacre of 1978, my father(a world wide member since the early 70's) was told HWA & Worldwide was actually put under official scrutiny because of his previous failed prophecies regarding 1975 and possible mass exodus to the Jordanian desert/ Petra and the authorities not wanting to see a repeat of the Jim Jones catastrophe. I guess the government could pay him with a Harrod's gift certicate for a "personal gift" for Ramona or a life time supply of Harvey's Bristol Creme if he was an unofficial government agent. Seems like this would be contradictory for him to do so since he forbid church members the right to vote.
And to think the E.U. wasn't doing hardly jack-squat back then either in regard to any kind of regulated global curency, no strongman yet for the world to marvel at, nor any significant Sunday blue laws closing global commerce once a week. The entire 1970s decade seemed poised to usher in 80s Reganomics, Soviet Glasnost & Perestroika, & East Germany joining the West with wall crumbling down.
The booklet 1975 In Prophecy should have been whistleblown big time more prominently when Lira & Francs & Marks were still traded, & no Euro or Bitcoin even peeking out yet. Also no collapsing Petrodollar near 1975 either.
With a nearly 90 million 1975 dollar tax free cash flow. HWA had only gathered a personal 3 million dollars at the end of his lifetime........ You don't get it do you.... The payment was "the open door"... that somehow miraculously opened.... That people like Nakasone, with a grueling 1980 OESO schedule in Paris would make time for him.... whilst HWA was travelling from Laken (B) to UNEsco Paris as Rader left 1.5 hours earlier with a commercial flight instead of flying together in the G2.... "to arrange a few things"......
So for those who don't know how some operations are financed and think all government spending is budgetted, should once again, watch "Charlie Wilson's war" or for the intellectuals here study Reagan, Ollie and Iran Contra Papers.
For those who feel their 30.000 1960 parents were duped by the (prophesying nothing) 1975 booklet.
Already in 1963 the planning for a huge Campus was publicized, in 1967 it was openly published that it would contain a 20 million 1970 dollars Auditorium Facility for concerts also.
Would one belief for a minute when building started according to the Masterplan in 1968, that all members believed this investment would run for 1 year.....
Come on..... the banks provided a 20 year lease, which payment was finished in 1995, the exact moment Tkach pulled the plugs on the Church,as Rader was a payed consultant until 2002 and Tkach his son presided over his funeral.....
This might be off subject, but I'm curious about Tkach, what do we really know about him?
When we came into the church in 1963, there was a family from Chicago named Apostolos in our congregation. The word was they had family back home that had mob connections! They were referring to Joe.
Also, is it true what I once heard that Joe's real rise in power was after he caught Dean Blackwell in bed with his (Tkach's) wife? From there Dean takes him to Pasadena and the rest is history?
Mrs. Tkach was always reported to be in some kind of ailment & ill health, in WCG we hardly saw what she looked like until well into Tkach Sr.'s admin., he unveiled a large wonderful portrait of her that some artist painted.
It would be very distressing to learn if Dean Blackwell did anything naughty with her. If the naughtiness did happen, it would be even more distressing to hear modern COGers describe it as just something that humans do along the way toward perfection.
When he was on the Royal Yaght Brittania with the Rothchilds it was like a square peg in a round hole.... Nothing like the giggly Lady Diana around fatherly HWA at the Southampton gardens. Even in Church he was presented as a "tough guy" kicking out demon possessed people from his office. Personally I forgave him most, but my 100 percent break with him was around 2005,whe on te internet it was made clear that the "Pacific Military Service Record" as presented to me was a lie...... For personal reasons this is less acceptable to me than the squandering and theft of a billion dollars of assets, reducing that to ashes in such unprofessional and immoral manner that not even he could profit from it..
Tkach's wife suffered from some kind of mental health ailment. She eventually ended up living with her son-in-law, Doug Horchak, who kept her hidden and out of sight in his 11-room home. She was never mentioned and never seen.
nck is a fraud, plain and simple, living in a delusional landscape full of conspiracies, contradictions, an absence of critical thinking skills, and bad grammar. He (or she) needs a serious medical intervention.
Does that billion dollars count if it's invested in a herd of "white elephants"? How does one even go about selling colleges? This "stuff" was for a single purpose. The anomalous modern honeycomb buildings are an example. They were out of character for the rest of the neighborhood and had to be demolished. Conversely, mansions are not generally suitable as college classrooms and dorms.
If we switch to the automotive realm for comparison, it was as if HWA had invested in a collection of '49-"59 DeSotos, "57 Ramblers, 1960s Corvairs, and '57-60 Edsels. What buyer would even be interested in these?
Pepperdine College, later Pepperdine University, ended up abandoning their South Central LA hodge-podge campus, and building a whole new campus in Malibu. Having been on the LA campus, I was blown away when tearing up the Pacific Coast Highway on my Triumph, and suddenly saw the new campus. They probably didn't appreciate it, but i just had to detour and ride through the new campus because it was so amazing.
10:29..... The way you phrase it makes your opinion sound as......just an opinion.... there is, actually zero value in what you wrote..... re read your comment nck
EVERYTHING that the Church under HWA's leadership had acquired had increased on value tenfold. Especially, the art, paintings, silver and AC college grounds.
Even the land without the buildings was worth at least 500 million dollars in 1985.
The reason it sold for nearly nothing was because both the Church and the City wanted to keep intact the architectural historical integrity of the entire site and not have it sold in parcels to real estate developers.
No of the art sold at a loss. On fact nothing was sold at a loss, yet the profits could have been sky high...
If nck is a lady, I would love to meet an old girl like that, might spark off lively banter on coffee dates at Whole Foods inside seating area ☕☕
But if nck is a fella, then I gotta hand it to ya chap for at least not writing like the common camo-wearing, pickup-truck driving-but-never-picking-up-stuff-with-it, good ol' boy types prevailing in my local area who all die early due to smoking and eating greasy tavern food during their fleeting 55 yrs. or so.
I don't think 10:29 went to college or university. Therefore, he never learned to recognize or appreciate eccentric professorial types. Reality is, such educators break up the insufferable monotony of the institutions.
For any old timers out there, contrast Howard Clark, or David Jon Hill with most of the faculty at AC, 'dena. Oops, now wait a minute! Forgot about Uncle Roddy who couldn't teach a class or preach a sermon without mentioning masturbation, the whores in Hollywood, and all the homosexuals. Guess we did have our share of the eccentric subgenre!
I would like to know what the young HWA though of Prohibition, & of how Passover wine along with FOT glad tidings with wine & strong drink would have been accomodated & balanced & rightly divided between following the law here, & following the law there.
(would he have had Al Capone set up shop with an FOT speakeasy in the basement of Tommy Bartlett Amusements at the Wisc. Dells...)
Such a shame Bricketwood was closed already early eighties last century... . Uncle Roddy would have had a ball with the Brit fashion of wearing pink, shirts, ties and whatever bright color available at pret a porter....By that time however he was already exiled to the distant islands of........ Hawai....
Him preaching at the Feast is my very first memory from when I was 4 years old and studied the lighting above....
I wished he had preached in the manner he taught classes, my 24 year old mother would have been shocked, which would have saved me a lot of time.....
Maybe HWA would have ordered a bunch of worldwide divorces within 2nd marriages, & then presided as officiant over a bunch of retroactive re-marriages.
Liz Taylor would've been stuck back with Richard Burton hittin' the sauce. Edward VIII would have stayed on the "Davidic" throne instead of abdicating, since HWA would've decreed Ms. Wallis go back to hubby #1 E.W. Spencer or to hubby #2 Ernest Simpson but not #3 Edwardian VIII. Which of the 9 chaps would HWA have had Zsa Zsa Gabor go back to...
Hey, Jim Bakker would've went back to Tammy Faye under HWA!
Engelbert Humperdinck would have been banned from singing the hit, "Please Release Me". (I never liked that song as a kid anyway since Pops was cheatin' on our Momsy)
Would Madonna Ciccone still be with Sean Penn under an HWA world order...
A lot of people had a great deal of fun with Bricket Wood, nck.
One AC "urban legend" had to do with a transfer student to England from Texas. During Ambassador Club the Texas student was chosen to evaluate an upper classman's speech. Apparently, flustered at finding no negatives, and fully aware of the dreaded "whitewash brush" the dude from Texas closed his evaluation with, "All in all, a great speech! But you really need to work on that British Accent of yours! There were times when I could barely understand you!"
It was one of those "Well Duh!" moments for the club!
I like that Renee Zellwegger/Bridget Jones in reverse quote.... It was quite remarkable to have these Texans, South Africans, Post War Germans, Collapsed Empire Brits, work it out together.... and BB asked if HWA was conducting a globalist experiment....
In the Autobiography he is thinking hard about opening AC in either Lugano or Geneva in 1947..... Non of that localist isolationism stuff in america... no a school where cultures would be integrated through the study of language, direct contact and perhaps skills that were available in Geneva....
only then more cheap former Chicagoian summer retreat real estate became available in Pasadena... and the rest is history....
Yeah, nck, wasn't it nice of the CIA to turn Herbie instead of arresting him for treason for prophesying German victory of WW-II on the World Tomorrow program in the early '40s? The old Radio Church of God and Ambassador College were undetectable as a CIA storefront. I never met any spies (except for a couple fellow students we won't mention!) on campus during the '60s. The Assyria prophecies made me wary of some of the international students from Germany, though.
Sorry ''bout that re-hetorical question about Herbie bein' a globalist. Had to do it because I just knew that as soon as you had made your appearance it would be on that Watkins dude's mind!
Nck, Intelligent deluded people I know did not get their teeth fixed and withheld their kids from school in the 1968-1972 time frame. Hard to believe, but they were already deep in cognitive dissonance, so auditorium spending made little difference.
Yes. 1) As verifiably HWA wrote in a Pre - Operation Barbarossa Plain Truth...... "Here on my desk I have Germanies plans for an invasion of Ukraine Russia......"
2) Isolationist USA was battling Roosevelt on all political front to just not meddle in that "European Civil War", that turned out to be a a Worldwar after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor
To suggest that the general American Public was in any way prepared to fight a 2 front World War is of course completely false....
HWA's writings and radio broadcasts about Nazi's and Japanese Invading California can be seen within a general operation to open America's eyes for what was coming
(in the same manner advertising people know many months in advance what is going to water once mouth at the next Harley Davidson show... or the supermarkets new and advanced French fries for that matter. Nck
We did go to the dentist back in the '50s. My dad, however, who tested in the genius range for IQ, believed per HWA's anti-medical doctrines that it was sinful to take novocaine, and had a tooth pulled without it.
It was difficult growing up in Armstrongism, when the most intelligent people one knew (parents), who could argue anyone into a corner, and so logically, were such fanatical die hards, and went to extremes themselves to set complying examples.
We not only had to read the ingredients on foodstuffs growing up, but on our clothing labels because at that time, per Leviticus, you were not to wear clothing made from mixed materials.
Implicit, instant obedience was also required, because in the future if we hesitated or questioned an order from the parents, it might get us caught by the Germans, and our whole family captured or killed.
We regard the Flurrys and Dave Pack today as being extreme, and being members of RCG and PCG as cruel and unusual punishment, but growing up in the earlier Radio Church of God was much more extreme back in the day. Makes RCG and PCG almost appear as Laodicean by comparison. And, I knew families back then who were even more fanatical than my own family.
Yes. That's true BB. I was there. Our/My Pastors were former Medical Doctors and Apothecarists/Pharmacists.
We grinded our own flour for bread and pancakes in the 1970's.
I never experienced the clothing thing though.... And Germans I did not fear, because the Pastor who had raised our congregation was a German and because of my wider family I was well aware we had kicked their buts very well and they were occupied........ until of course 1992.
I take notice, no comment on the PT articles forwarning the American Public for a German invasion of Ukraine even before the USA was involved in WW2.
No, they'll whittle new dentures outta the leftover teeth of their deceased underlings with the same 1700s technology Geo. Washt. used, & mount them in lead.
Was that home ground bread as good as this new Ezekiel 4:9 bread nowadays?
Bob has a Lev. 19:19 & a Deut. 22:11 article citing the mixed linen & wool :
"Clothes The Bible talks about linen, leather, and wool being used for clothes. It also says not to wear clothes where linen and wool would be mixed together in Leviticus 19:19 and Deuteronomy 22:11. Basically, from a physical perspective this results in a garment with different shrinkage and hence a product that does not stay together well. So, we are basically to avoid plant materials combined with animal hair for clothing. Synthetic fibers would seem to be allowed. That said, in general undergarments made out of 100% natural plant materials are best for health, particularly for women. So, while there can be a place for synthetics, they generally should not be used for undergarments. As far as socks go, however, wool lasts longer than cotton."
Coincidentally, I've been binge watching "The Americans" TV series, a fave from my collection, since I hadn't watched it in several years. It's about a husband and wife KGB spy team who were specially trained in a Potemkin Village specifically created to resemble an American city, so that they could live on assignment, undetected, in the USA during the Cold War. I'm sure that the series is heavily fictionalized, however there is also much factual material included, making it a fairly accurate representation of events which most certainly actually happened during the Cold War.
Claim is made by a Russian overseer on the program that the USA lost 400,000 soldiers during WW-II, while Russia's casualties were 27 Million. And you can Google "Russian Casualties of World War II" and actually verify this. It's not as if I'm being like "Nazi-boy" to repeat this here, but it is another example of other peoples' histories and contributions being ignored or downplayed for the sake of political expedience. Leaders had to have known about this in the aftermath of WW-II, and it must have played into the decision to "give" Russia East Germany.
Back in 2001, someone calling himself "Robert England" had a website theorizing that HWA, and the church and college were a CIA front, and he was attempting to collect information in an effort to prove this. He had made some leaps based on the moneys paid to broadcast "The World Tomorrow" from the Pirate Radio (Offshore ships) Stations. I thought it was interesting as a theory, but simultaneously absurd. Herbert Armstrong harbored an intense and irrational hatred for rock music. I was also aware of some of the materials being put out by my old AC dorm mate Orlin Grabbe, who in his various capacities, knew some "spooks", and other questionable characters. Orlin's site was a virtual clearing house for esoterica which included his own writings, and many bizarre theories, but nothing provable.
There is a lit of crazy stuff floating around out there. The best we can do is to apply ourselves to stamping out those things which ruin peoples' lives.
BB Rader had Ukranian Jewish background. So to support the State of Israel or especially the theory of the USA being cousins would be a natural thing.
Orlin had interesting ladies on his website and of course that article on Strauss, with the claim that German Intelligence was aware of his AC visit as they were monitoring all contacts of local politicians for obvious reasons.
It boggles the mind how you do not understand the pirate radio theory and misrepresent it.
Many like Radio London were directly sponsored by agents others were funded through advertisers, The Church being most prominent as one of the largest American Media buyers of its time.
Who cares if HWA liked or didn't like Rock Music??? He was the one indirectly sponsoring the CIA Opp to sway the British and Mainland youth to American capitalist culture in a time that swaying to communism was all the rage and terrorism was defined as Rote Armee Faktion, or Red Brigades in Italy. .. etc and Radio Europe Radio Monaco etc receiving funding through WTM
I believe I do understand the Pirate Radio phenomenon, nck, because I know the history of the Beatles (including them honing their craft in Berlin), the British rock n roll invasion, and the staidness and stodginess of the BBC during that era, although there were programs like "Tops of the Pops", etc. When the original British Invasion groups began in cities throughout the British Isles, many of them were a reflection of the American rock explosion of 1955-56. They were doing covers of Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Gene Vincent, Eddie Cochran, Muddy Waters, John Lee Hooker, Buddy Holly, etc. Then they got into Tamla, and early Motown, and progressed into writing their own music. The Teddy Boys, Mods, and Rockers (motorcycle and motor scooter juvenile delinquent groups) mirrored Marlon Brando, and James Dean. The Rolling Stones began as a trad jazz group, and morphed into the blues. It was an entire cultural movement, and reenergized the US youth culture as it reached the USA. The early rock n rollers realized the second acts of their musical careers as they found huge audiences in England, some of them actually making money for the first time.
The CIA was involved in bringing this music to the communist block. They had witnessed the natural power it had over young people, and those who thought young. The movement did not need outside assistance in the British Isles, because it was happening organically. I'm sure that the money from the World Tomorrow broadcast helped the Pirate Radio ships, just as it did the clear channel 50,000 watt AM radio stations across the USA, and the Mexican 200,000 watt "border blasters" like XEG and XELO. You also must remember that Herbert W. Armstrong could not get on the BBC, which was a radio and TV monopoly controlled by the British government. That's the only similarity he bore to the rock phenomenon.
Look, carnally, I'd like to tar and feather HWA, the WCG, and AC, any way I can because of all the damage they did, and their heirs continue to do. But, my innate sense of fairness demands that I do it clean. I've always been interested in accomplishing that by using truth. There's a lot of stuff about them which falls into conspiracy theory territory, and I can't use it because it is unprovable. There's also negative stuff that the remnants want us to believe is all conspiracy theory, and they even reject and blind themselves to facts to get there. You watched me over the past week realize certain things about HWA's meetings with the great of the world. I'm still adjusting to that. But I really need more information before I make the jump to HWA as a total CIA pawn, although they and the FBI would most certainly have known about him. Because of the quirkiness of his belief system, I believe that even the Bilderbergs and the Trilateral Commission would have treated him much the same as Christian radio and television treat Armstrongism today. More like as a threat. If anything, they would have wanted to sabotage him and suppress his message, as they did with the Black Power movement of the 1960s. Let's face it. The communists would have had greater use for a group which fervently believed and taught that the US and English speaking capitalist nations were about to be conquered. It would have been particularly interesting to them that converts to a sizable and growing group refused to participate in the military, even to defend their country in the case of an invasion. They would have duly noted parallels between their own system of government and that of HWA. They would have seen the Millennium as preached by HWA as having been inspired by Lenin himself!
The Pirate Stations solely blasted AMERICAN rock and roll toward the British Isles and the European Continent.
The EXPLICIT American cultural colonialism was seen as a huge thread to European culture, morals and power base of its, elites. Especially in Britain Laws were implemented to exorcize Americanism and abhorrent liberal overtake.
Not only through the cultural implications, but also the systemic economic social implications... since No Commercial Broadcasting had ever existed and all European Media was strictly State controlled in the past 1960's, or broadcasting time organized according to distinct political factions.
NON OF THIS COMPLETE revolution was brought about organically. Eventually it was the youth that swayed to American culture... Hell, my schoolmates got arrested and suspended for wearing Jeans.
The youth could just as easily have been swayed to communism and Che Guevara type freedom as Spain, Portugal, Greece were still CIA backed regimes...... Like that of the Shah in Iran that got "liberated" from American backed dictatorship... As the students in Iran saw it at that time. Late sixties the CIA was very concerned both Italy and Germany would fall to Communism as left wing terrorism made their point about the implementation of American type capitalism.
I know you were more concerned about Vietnam than European Affairs at the time.
Vietnam, Yet another stumbling block for the CIA to intervene into winning the hearts and minds of the Europeans by sending their best and brightest to bring about European Unification and send fear into the population through mass media warning about German going alone atrocious history and impending nuclear destruction.... making the Europeans to come together...
Foes a certain 3 million printed issue mass magazine striking fear in the general populace at every library or London metro station come to mind....
What kind of proof do you need. This is how a Psy op works.
It is impossible to underestimate young Roddys article and travelling through Francos Spain and have that free mass media publication distributed to the general voting public in the USA.
I don't kind people thinking South Africa was a sovereign nation. Yet it was Ronald Reagan who ended thebapartjeudcsystem AFTER SUPPORTING IT UNYIL THE COLD WAR WAS WON.
Nck, The Pirate ships or stations played the music which was currently on the American Top 40, and during the period before the laws were changed to hold those who aided, conducted business with, or performed services for those who owned and operated such pirate stations guilty of a major crime, British rock and roll dominated the American Top 40. As soon as the BBC responded to the demand for the pirate stations with their own changes to accommodate the music, and as the dreadful new laws took effect, many of the disc jockeys from the Pirate ships capitalized on their popularity by actually going to work for the BBC, continuing that popularity. That is all a matter of history.
Conservative forces here in the USA reacted in much the same way to rock music as you say they did in British Parliament. In the American Southeast, as an example, there was no small concern over the music mixing black and white teenagers in dancing and enjoying the music together. Imagine their reaction to Hendrix! It went against all in which the older generation believed. That's also a matter of history.
All of the public schools which I attended here in the USA forbade the wearing of blue jeans (Levis and Wranglers) to class.
You may find it interesting to read up on the large number of musicians and song writers who lived in Laurel Canyon (Hollywood) during the mid to late '60s, and the backgrounds of their parents. Or the early experiments with lysergic acid diethylamide, first synthesized by Albert Hoffman, tested by the US military on volunteers, and then mass produced independently by Owsley "Bear" Stanley in the San Francisco Bay area as the "Beats" transformed into "Hippies". No branch or agency of government would deliberately foment such a trend or movement on the youth of our country or any ally. This was counter-culture, and it horrified the majority of the American public.
In the USA, the Vietnam war was wiping out the barrios and ghettos, and many reluctant soldiers in the Vietnam conflict were avid drug users. It's the only way they coped. I have no idea who the Europeans were sending off to war, but the privileged, moneyed classes here in the USA were underrepresented in the military of that era.
You are right about one thing. I will probably never "get" your concept of the Pirate ships which broadcast "The World Tomorrow". I believe that that is native to the particular bubble in which you live. I do not know whether that bubble is shared by numerous others, or if it's a personal one. It seems to be informed by considerable misinformation, or disinformation, and a lack of general feel for what was happening in the youth trends of that era. In the absence of public admission, there is no way of really knowing what the CIA did or did not do. They did take credit for Che.
For those interested, check out centerforaninformedamerica.com, where the late David McGowan's archives on Laurel Canyon are preserved. David explored alleged CIA influences and had various theories. My comments as Byker Bob may still appear in the discussions at the ends at the ends of several chapters. Been at this for a long time. Can't live on the "psy op" known as "Armstrongism" alone, ya know!
Since it takes only 2 minutes to verify academic sources. - my bubble. I will for the it simple minded here just refer to wiki which is easily readable and a popular newspaper article. A) just because I will never provide my sources b) because I will never release interested people of their own responsibility to research if they are interested
One academic study is publicized on this blog and wiki is an easy read on radio swan, wiki on radio London also clear on the protection the largest sponsor had through firing dj's for criticizing HWA (so far your counter culture argument.. Firing dj's for critisizing an American conservative preacher imagine that, so far "natural development of the youth movement)
Maybe HWA knew how many shooters there were on roofs & now-paved over storm drain tunnels in front of grassy knolls to make JFK's head tip "back, & to the left" despite Warren Comm. claiming it was from rear, featuring a whirling twirling magic bullet doing u-turns & somersaults inside the body to carom around & also strike Gov. Connally.
“What Is The Story Behind Herbert Armstrong's Visits With World Leaders?”
Newspapers, radio, and television were controlled by the government in many countries, so Herbert W. Armstrong went in person with his message directly to these various leaders in government.
nck said:- wiki on radio London also clear on the protection the largest sponsor had through firing dj's for criticizing HWA (so far your counter culture argument.. Firing dj's for critisizing an American conservative preacher imagine that, so far "natural development of the youth movement)
Nck don't think there is anything very significant here. Kenny Everett, the dj involved, was a very outspoken person, who got fired at other times too.
The World Tomorrow was a major income source for 'Wonderful Radio London', and the church itself threatening to withdraw from the station would have been reason enough to fire Kenny, without needing any help from the CIA.
The church was on plenty of other 'pirate' stations, so could afford to lose one as an example to the other stations.
Don't forget Ambassador College Bricket Wood was open then, and within the broadcast range of Radio London, so the station could be easily monitored.
I wasn't attending, but listened to the stations. I do actually remember one occasion the dj mildly mocking the broadcast. If it was Kenney Everett or not I can't say.
BB says "there is a lot of crazy stuff out there"!!
For those who can't see or want to believe that Satan the devil is the God of this world and therefore the ultimate conspirator, most of these sub-plot exchanges between BB and Nck will not make any sense. However, they do fit into a bigger picture.
Nck--" the CIA opp to sway the youth"?
BB--"the natural power (music) had over young people and those who thought young".
BB-- "the concern over (music) mixing black and white teenagers"? HAVE YOU WATCHED ANY TELEVISION COMMERCIALS LATELY?
BB-- " the large number of musicians and song writers who lived in Laurel Canyon in the 60's with parents that" worked for the military, military contractors, or intelligence agencies?
It has been suggested that Jim Jones was a CIA opp, and having lived through that, I concur. I'm still not sure how HWA might fit into the scheme of things, but I do know that along with David McGowen, there is considerable information out there about the British invasion and Laurel Canyon.
Mike Williams at sageofquay.com has done a tremendous amount of research on the British invasion in general and the Beatles in particular. He documents to my satisfaction that neither evolved organically, but were Tavistock and British intelligence creations to accomplish the many things listed by BB and Nck. Dr. John Coleman's several books on Tavistock and the Committee of 300 verify this.
One of my favorite quotes by Mike is where he asks, "does this world evolve organically according to a natural flow of events? No! The way the world moves is scripted, manufactured and social engineered by those in control. Look at trends, fads, fashion and pop culture. Who determines this and for what reason?"
BB says, "there is a lot of stuff which falls into conspiracy theory territory that is unprovable". True, but is ANYTHING in this world really provable and trustworthy?
The same tactics Satan used in the Garden and used to turn the masses against Jesus Christ are being used today to accomplish an ultimate goal. We have to be careful about who we recognize as authorities and presenters of "truth". Our well being could depend on it.
Hi Questeruk. I think I made it very clear that I only quoted extremely low threshold articles for this pearl and swine audience. Not the studies about the American Businessmen, Finance people and their connections. The Radio Swan thing is just an appetizer. I have mentioned C Wilson's War movie many times for the uninitiated ordinary people to at least get a feel.
The Church was NOT on plenty of Radio Stations to reach North Western Europe. Even Radio Luxembourg a mega station was not easy to receive. The Luxemburg TV broadcast only reaching the United States Armed Forces in the Bitburg area.
My point was not to prove if the firing of the DJ was normal or not. It was to disprove BB's point that the Revolution and American cultural take over was an unplanned organic event.
I see that BP8 here below is explaining it even better.
One of the big topics which comes up when you Google "CIA involvement in Rock" is the discussions on whether the CIA wrote "Winds of Change" for the German group The Scorpions, prior to a concert they did in Russia, BP8. There have been numerous visits by famous groups to Russia by this point in time, dating back to the efforts of the Carter administration, and the first American group to appear behind the iron curtain, which was the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band. Music most definitely had a role in the collapse of the Soviet Union, and I really wouldn't question the premise that the CIA was all over that.
My interest in music stems from a life-long fascination with the guitar. Some of the people who don't play, (or try to play) may believe that rock music is simple and that anyone can do it. I watch numerous instructive videos each week, and also concert videos from back in the classic era, shot on location back in the day. The depth to which great guitar players were into their instruments, the tone, the tunings, and what could only be described as finger acrobatics is just incredible. Lately, I've been watching numerous videos featuring Steve Marriott, the late leader of both the Small Faces, and Humble Pie. It is incredible how he could have his fingers in a chord pattern, and simultaneously move his middle and ring fingers around to play lead while also playing the chord. So glad I actually got to see the Pie in concert back in the '70s. Sadly, both the management of Small Faces and Humble Pie were known mob figures, and Steve was left virtually penniless in his post rock star life, playing in small venues and sometimes actually having to collect soda bottles just to have money to eat. He's far from the only one to suffer this fate. The mob was most certainly a much bigger presence, exploiting rock musicians than was the CIA. I've also recently been watching footage on Irish rockers "Thin Lizzy". More sad stories regarding Phil Lynott.
We as a group (former Armstrongites) were programmed to believe that conspiracy theories were a totally natural way of explaining the unexplainable. The bigger the phenomenon, and the more unlikely the happening, the more outrageous the Hisloppian leaps. We were also programmed to look for Satan in everything around us. Me, I just liked and appreciated the music. So many musicians had so many diverse experiences, that any organized attempt to control them would have been like an attempt to herd cats. At heart, many were rebel outlaws, anti-authoritarian to the core. Look at how outspoken so many are even today when authoritarian politicians co-opt their music and use it in their campaigns. It's possible that some were exploited or got a bump from the intelligence community. But, music is such an individual artistic effort that its predominant evolution is organic. Musicians borrow from each other, taking things further, and the result is often something which unites people, at least during the time they're listening together, even if they don't speak the same language. Many theologians, mostly conservative ones, are very envious of that type of power, because it thwarts their efforts to collect people. So they find little leverages to mute that effect. The CIA was anathema to the baby boomer generation, the hippies, and anti-war demonstrators. It is ludicrous to theorize that that era, and those people were unknowingly choreographed by the CIA, although I'm sure that the CIA did their part to put an end to that era.
Look the "1st Law of Nckian - BB unintelligible threads destined to die peacefully" is..... tie Jimmi Hendrix into Prophecy and it will be stirred to continue for eternity.
Btw Perhaps one has noticed that everything is about "feeling" nowadays. Suppose not a single clever person ever thought about how to exploit a society based on how individual people "feel" about things, instead of external ancient text being the norm... Of course such a thing will never happen... how can policy and politics be about feelings, no serious government will think and explore such notion.
BB's continual insistence on direct control and direct involvement and meddling shows that he does not truly understand what Rader taught us and how mighty opps work.... "It is not about what you own..... it is about what you can control and have access to what matters....."
Also the principle of "leverage" is not about "OWNING" dome kind of preacher but rather controlling topics on the mass media that person has access too.
I actually learned that from one of the NY billionaires buying influential magazines just to annoy the Democrats with their Free Market, Liberal articles.... Without his support, some of these world famous magazines would have been non existant. And he was also the President of the most important Republican Think tank.
One more detail, BP8. I do like to be thorough. There are things which are most definitely provable. The second component of that equation however, involves whether the proofs are accepted. We live in times when skillful orators cause people not to accept proof because it conflicts with their agenda. There are also people so jaded by lies they've experienced throughout their lifetime, that they do not trust or believe much of anything. It leaves their minds in a confusing state of organized anarchy. This can be dangerous in times where there is an ongoing existential threat. We look at disasters throughout history which were made worse by people who failed to act and wonder why. They did not know, or did not want to know something that was key to their survival, even as others around them did.
Again, we live in times where many evaluate events and factors from a standpoint of confirmation bias. They choose a path which conforms to their own narrative. Many of my early erroneous decisions in life were made based on 1975. I can't believe there are still people who trust the revision "within the next 3-5 years" Seems unrelated to the current discussion, but it actually does fit into it.
BB Whether it was the CIA, the mob, or corporate types in black suits, the music business is a "controlled" business with who knows how many sub agendas it services.
I'm with you, I like guitar and appreciate the famed rock musicians. I grew up playing guitar in garage bands, idolizing and mimicking those very ones I now see in a different light.
The chief of all fairy tales is the Beatles, the feel good story about a group that went from the bars in Hamburg to the Ed Sullivan stage almost overnight. Were they organic? Manufactured? Brian Epstein and George Martin were to the Beatles like Rader and Gotah were to HWA--handlers!
Mike Williams (sageofquay.com) has an enormous amount of documentation refuting the Beatles rise to fame official narrative. I don't have a specific program to reference for he has hundreds of hours covering diverse ground. You can look it up. He does cover the following questions on multiple programs:
Did the Beatles sing their own songs? Yes.
Were they the prolific song writers the official narrative claims they were? No.
Did they play on all their own music? Live-yes, studio-no.
Studio session players were used on most of their recorded tracks for obvious reasons---it's a business promoting an agenda, nothing was done by chance.
The great guitarist of that time (Jimmy Page, Eric Clapton, Glen Campbell) actually began as session players who recorded most of the British invasion content, along with session groups like the Wrecking Crew, the Nashville A Team, and the Swampers, aka the Muscle Shoals Rhythm Section (see Wikipedia on each for a partial admission of these facts along with other aspects both promoting and conflicting with the official narrative).
Jump ahead 60 years and we can now see with our own eyes just how dumb down society has become. As great as the Beatles were, the current darling of the age, Taylor Swift, is projected to surpass them in every category known to music. That's right, Taylor Swift the G.O.A.T.!!! How, why you say?
Happy days are here again OR "in the last days, perilous times shall come", (2 Tim.3:1)?
BB at 952 I agree with you to a point. I think it depends on the individual and the proof offered. For me, first and foremost, it has to make sense while considering the source. Also, I'm always leary of someone demanding a radical response. You know the type.
Agreed, BP8. Handlers. Berry Gordy Jr. was kind of the king of all that. He wanted the Motown artists to be very polished, actually running a kind of finishing school for them. Also, he often assigned the same song to multiple of his artists, and whoever did the best job got to do the official hit version.
Big Jim Sullivan was another very famous British session musician. When Tom Jones had his USA TV program, Big Jim was his guitarist.
I really liked the Stax session musicians from the Memphis Soul era.
Oh, and one of the oddities from the David McGowan materials was how the Monkees were right there partying with all of the "real" musicians in Laurel Canyon. This was because the entire community realized that they ALL used the same session musicians, not just the Monkees.
By the time I began going to concerts, the musicians really had their acts together musically. Billy Gibbons was amazing. Real virtuoso and showman. Always loved ZZ Top. Got to see many of the old Blues artists who influenced him as well, because they were still alive and doing shows. When I was a little kid, one of the adults told me that rock n roll was a combination of Hillbilly music and the Blues. (I mean, that practically defined Elvis!) But, I've always loved rock, country, the Blues, and deep soul.
See, the thing is, even if nck actually turned out to be right about the CIA and some of the music, it would not diminish my love and appreciation for it one bit. It was good stuff no matter the source. Taylor Swift doesn't even register on my Doppler Radar Scope!
Yes, it is amazing how good the music is........ taken out of the (revolutionary, spaced out, counter culture, (cold and hot) war) context of the time......
Wonder what the learned guru of Spahn Ranch thought of HWA. Wonder if he let Squeaky Fromme tune her transitors to Radio Church of God out there in the dusty Simi Hills.
"Low threshhold ...... for this pearl and swine audience...."?????
Therein lies your problem, nck. You learned very well from HWA and Stan the man how to be an elitist.
Those of us with our feet firmly planted on the ground were just appreciating art, Bohemian culture, but mostly just diggin' on the music.
By the way, aren't you the one who started the rumors here that I had died a couple years ago? I still haven't figured out how concerned people got my unlisted phone number and email addresses.
I did not start any rumors about you. I do not do the strange thing you mention......(although I did look up old school mates at facebook some decades ago). I bear no ill will to any person out here, not even the former "Ollie." Rock on brother Harley.....Easy Rider friend.......
Since British Pop Music was a topic.... now Freddy Mercury of Queen Fame singing in Highlander comes to mind....... "Who wants to live forever......".....
I did develop an entire theory around that movie... since those immortals are beheading each other because "there can be only One".... This resonated with me since we believed that Genesis had 2 God's "The Allmighty and the Word"..... and it was implied there might be more........ So I thought perhaps they were the last 2 of 7.....
Of course Dennis did confirm this thought pattern as rational when he laid out the history of El on this blog.....
Loadies came up with the idea of turning down the sound on "Wizard of Oz", and playing Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon" album, setting down the needle on the record immediatley following the Lion's third roar. There is said to be perfect synchronicity between the two, almost as if the album had been created as an alternative sound track.
Pink Floyd denies any intent on their part to have initiated any such correlation, and my loadie friends and I never knew of this back in the day, hence I have never personally verified the legend.
The statute of lims has long since expired on this, so I can share that I do recall one summer evening in the mid '70s having a little smoke and playing Dark Side of the Moon as we watched a lunar eclipse. That was really cool!
Garth Hemp's story is inteteresting. Fitting.... as the first images of Voyager were beamed to the Auditorium......
Also Dorothy and the yellow brick road to Oz. A children's book people say. Yet all alluding to the early 1900 banking/economic crisis.... and the imminent and following contemporary political debate on the later gold standard and federal reserve system that followed to prevent this happening in the future.
Hence the link with the early Jekyll Island Feast site.... To celebrate mass at the holy site where god/the federal reserve had marked its presence...
Ooh, it was 1910 the big pow wow for gold/dollar on Jekyll Isle :
"In November 1910, six men – Nelson Aldrich, A. Piatt Andrew, Henry Davison, Arthur Shelton, Frank Vanderlip and Paul Warburg – met at the Jekyll Island Club, off the coast of Georgia, to write a plan to reform the nation’s banking system. The meeting and its purpose were closely guarded secrets, and participants did not admit that the meeting occurred until the 1930s."
OK guys, this is where I get off. I hate the CIA, although some of their shit is just hilarious.
I think "States Rights" gets selectively used, hypocritically, pro or con, which ever way hard right conservatives think it best furthers their agenda.
But, I love the Federal Reserve system because overall it has protected us from some of the worst things that could happen.
OK guys, this is where I get off. I hate the CIA, although some of their shit is just hilarious.
I think "States Rights" gets selectively used, hypocritically, pro or con, which ever way hard right conservatives think it best furthers their agenda.
But, I love the Federal Reserve system because overall it has protected us from some of the worst things that could happen.
Garth Hemp. Non of my postings are political statements, ought or shouldn't.
They are just illustrations of how "a particular person's born in 1892" religion came into existence through his thought patterns ignited through Wilsonianism Internationalism VS the old isolationism, the rise of the USA from a mediocre country between the Great Empires to the single most important Superpower and the instrument of centralisation of (financial) power VS the Jefferson Ian way of governance.
139 comments:
Him stating near the beginning that he came to realize that he was worshipping the church is unsurprising. It was the church culture. Herb's name was heard much more often from the podium than Christ's name. It was typically "do you agree with HWA" or "that particular member doesn't agree with HWA." Herb was the ultimate reference point rathan than Christ or the bible.
It's no wonder that the church fragmented when "god" Herb died.
Just more evidence Herb fulfilled Daniel 8:23-25? Again, repeating, that just won't be believed until almost all the words are checked with the Hebrew. A "king" is simply a leader - cf Prov 30:27. "Destroy" can be "corrupt". Etc.
He was an egotistical narcissist, but we all know that. He paid he way into those interviews with the members tithe money, and we were duped into believing he was “spreading the gospel.” Yes, the Gospel of Herbert W Armstrong.
It's no wonder that the church fragmented when "god" Herb died>
The church workers/ministers worked diligently to so elevate uncle herb as you well describe little did they know they were creating the foundation for the demise of the fake one true church
Today no one has heard of HWA.
He is a total unknown.
But idolised by the almost invisible cog Armstrong remanent.
His ‘visits’ achieved nothing except photo opportunities for the ‘faithful’.
And are not proof that he was an apostle.
His legacy has disappeared and its few remaining outposts are almost dead.
Yet many are coming to faith in Christ unencumbered with the luggage of Armstrongism and its myths.
In that we can rejoice.
As church members, we were schooled to expect for the end times "apostle" something like what happened during the first century. Jesus and the leading disciples/apostles were dragged into the presence of the leaders and authority figures of that day, both Jewish and Roman ones. These authorities didn't propose toasts for them, introduce them to other world leaders, or orchestrate receptions for them.
We are nearly hardwired to expect serendipitous situations to lead to some sort of momentous conclusion. What was that of HWA? He wrote of being present at the meetings initializing the United Nations. If he were indeed one of the authors of globalism, that would have been rather odd, because of his prophecies and beliefs regarding the Beast and his one world government, a theocracy led by the Catholic Church.
I really don't believe we will ever fully understand HWA. He was very selective in what he shared with his dumb sheep. Decades after his death, with millions of words attempting to describe him, he remains an enigma. We don't know what he was doing. We only know what he did to us!
BB
By the way, did this video presentation just put a face on nck???
His foreign travels and meetings with heads of state, despots and dictators were less valuable than tits on a boar hog. The only thing they accomplished were to inflate his ego and drum up propaganda for some of the ministry to shovel out. It was literally hundreds of millions of dollars thrown away.
Very much doubt a prophecy in Daniel would have a single iota to do with a fake religious salesman of our time who abused the scriptures and people
Looking back it’s surprising he ever gained influence as he was a religious con man peddling lies much like those peddling elixirs in the western movies I watch
The story behind these visits is a simple one. Egoism. Plus the luxury lifestyle as staying in each national capital herb and the hangers on booked the best hotel in town.
Don’t need to look much beyond this.
The gospel he write about (“”not about Christ”) can be known to be very different to that in the Bible with just a simple bible study. Thus, these exercises in vanity had nothing whatsoever to do with preaching the gospel.
Let’s call it plainly.
The video shows HWA oftalking to the former president of Egypt about peace. Where is the peace in a church that's a cult? Where's the peace in a snitch culture with members spying on one another, and Gestapo ministers having the right to verbally bash their members? Herb didn't practice what he preached.
A true story: a friend at services told me that he was invited to another members house for dinner. He found a tape recorder under the dinner table.
''..He found a tape recorder under the dinner table''.
There never was the peace Jesus spoke of:
''
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe''.
herbies little gestapo just mouthed his empty propaganda
I have no doubt the story about the tape recorder under the table was true. I remember my dad and mom being suddenly befriended by a couple in Worldwide after several years of attendance and the guy telling my dad " it was a good thing that the previous minister( Ken Martin) was transferred because he was "getting too big for his britches." My dad agreed with him, mostly just going along with his conversation.
A few weeks later, my dad was confronted by the local NKVD assistant deacon wannabe, saying there was rumors he said our former pastor was needing to be transferred and "causing discord" My dad was pissed and went looking for this "narc" and confronted his wormy butt in the men's room. I don't think my father attended but maybe about a year before leaving after this.
"By the way, did this video presentation just put a face on nck???'
Hi BB,
Indeed, over the years I did adress all of the things mentioned in the videos and even much more that were not publicized but rather in the local newspapers..in China or the Philipines.
Being trained for the diplomatic corps and having access to even some of the local documents behind (not so much HWA's itinerary alone) but rather the exact political situation, framework and map of the visits, (for instance Japans State Department Policy Papers on the relationship with Israel and the Arab world in the 1960's. The importance of Okinawa both military but especially culturally (as we are currently experiencing in our entanglemnts with the Chinese) I have usually pointed at that they were not "just" photo ops and for the interested just said to "follow the GII flypath" as people never asked me questions but on this blog rather questioned my postings.
So I'm not going the "narrative 3"version which adresses Rothschilds, Bilderbergers, Rotary etc etc. I am the narrative 4 version which has on an academic level studied real power, real leaders, real challenges and real policy roadmaps foreward for this world under American leadership until 1990....when US decline set in in rapid pace.
Although I deny that HWA was ever in the employ of, paid for, or had any contact with me (kidding kidding....I did meet him) it is extremely difficult to either find or train people with his exceptional talents.......(as is proven in the video and the way he adresses a man who leads armies and leads one of the largest populaces on earth and of course was the recipient of the largest share of American Foreign aid at the time....(of course GTA also had some sort of friendly relationship with his British Wife....but never the huge motorcade that HWA would receive.
I once witnessed in one of the richest countries of the world that even the announcement of the GII coming would have the nation prepare a police motorcade which the local Pastor/Regional Director raised by HWA himself, being totally embarassed did not deem necessary, AS EVEN HE DID NOT KNOW WHO HE WAS DEALING WITH IN THE MANNER THAT THE LOCAL AUTHORITIES KNEW.......so the Pastor embarrassed as he was did allow the Local Offer to let the arrival party drive on the RUNWAY to pick HwA up.
This video fellow starts at 1968.....however one must realize that already in 1947 HWA was meeting with the House of Saud when the Church only had about 1500 members............
Its hard to admit how good A Friend a Quaker can be...
Goodbye friends......
nck
One more funny.
They sent a mock up of "Human Potential' (later Quest) to the Director of the CIA George Bush with a request to submit an article wit a topic of his choosing for the first real Edition.
Bush had to deny because of his extremely busy schedule.
He could have chosen any topic yet specified was to write something about development in China.
This exact topic is what made Robert Kuhn one of the most influential westerners to influence the development of modern china..........as I saw advertised on chinese state television to my sheer astonishment when I was flipping channels in a shabby hotel in Central Asia.
cheers
nck
How did that small jet get off the ground given how fattened up he was on fine dining?
A certain little church out in Eugene, Oregon bows at his feet. Read their letters, and listen to their messages; you'd wonder who was more important, Herbert or Christ?
I wondered about nck as well with this post. The video is pretty remarkable I admit, but I don’t think he was an agent.
Maybe he wanted to develop a different narrative as, inter alia, 1) the incest scandal was coming out in the 70’s, 2) he had already missed with his 1972 prophecy, and 3) his changes to the divorce/remarriage doctrine when he decided to marry a much younger divorcee himself.
If he didn’t skip town for long periods and create an image of a special guy meeting world leaders to overwhelm the narrative of his personal sins, his house of cards would have fallen much more readily as he would have had to answer more questions. Instead he could frame those questioners as deceivers trying to destroy the work.
In hindsight his “work” came to nothing as he is largely not remembered and he never changed or brought Christ to any of these leaders he met.
One more thing.
Some have commented or wondered about HWA having been an "employed agent".
How would that match with others having noticed that he was "uneducated".
I can honestly testify that HWA was not able to tell more about a country like Switzerland than what any American could tell after seeing "The Sound of Music" and not realizing the setting in Austria, also HWA was not able to explain what "Exxon" was......although he did know all the 1930 names of the companies. Also he did not even know how to interview a man whose family had ruled Europe for over a 1000 years, rather than sticking to his own ideas about The Beastpower.
Yet HWA would be the perfect man to recruit since actually not many operatives know that they are actually working for "The Work"......as they are just pursuing their own goals that.....somehow miraculously seem to be in sync with "The Powers that Be."
nck
Living the Christian life, in many ways a "day in - day out" routine , that is not necessarily all that sexy. Embracing the disciplines and habits of a good life is not always all that exciting, similar to working out or running on the treadmill, and doing so for your whole life, year after year.
HWA knew that he had to create "DRAMA" to keep people on the "edge of their seats" , amped up and engaged to be centered on him and his narcissistic needs. Thus you had a church that had the drama of 1972 coming and then failing, When that failed, reimagined and pivoted to the AICF and the "Ambassador for World Peace", thrown in with lots of internal church politics , receiverships , and more.
The splinters still try to create the drama to maintain the control. However, just like any drug, it takes more and more to create the "HIGH", or even to just maintain not having a withdrawal. Thus you have a guy like Pack that has to "up the dosage" more and more. At some point, the junkie either has to stop, or the amount needed to get you high will kill you. In the spiritual sense, this is what indeed happens.
Ya know, nck, I and others have often complained that those in the ACOGs fail to accept carefully researched, factual materials which are presented here. Materials which counter and disprove things that they believe. So, how can I do that with this, and why would I want to make myself guilty of doing the exact same thing as I witness others doing? Best policy in life is always to maintain intellectual honesty.
Up until now, I had actually believed that these meetings were photo ops. That is what I had believed back in the time frame in which they had been originally unfolding. In fact, I believed that HWA and his handlers had invented or pioneered "Evangelistic Payola". It is possible for us to realize that the man was wrong in so many ways, yet still had the talent and charisma to be influential on the world stage. Those two schools of thought are not mutually exclusive of one another.
BB
I don't accept the point of view that HWA's meeting with world leaders was nothing more than paid photo ops. If I was a political or business leader, I would read up on what HWA believed and stood for before agreeing to meet with him. World leaders must have asked their security agencies to fill them in on the man. They knew a lot more about him than just his diplomatic "a strong hand from somewhere" mantra.
PHOTO OPS
It was Herbert W. Armstrong's own spoiled, fucking, rebellious brat Garner Ted Armstrong who tried to minimize what his own father HWA had done by calling HWA's visits to many important world leaders over the years “photo ops.”
About the only thing that Garner Ted could get meetings with was masseuses like Suerae Robertson that he had to pay and who then secretly videotaped GTA's bad behavior so it could appear on television news. What a “photo op” that was!!!
Herbert was a unusual combination of good AND evil. He spoke often in sermons of the two trees but was himself a hedy mix of both.
How and why he aspired and acquired such meetings all his adult life is not really going to help Christians in walking with God and keeping themselves unspotted by the world.
But it is a clear marker that many baby boomers cannot and will not put the man
to rest, either to worship him or deride him. Inheriting in an strange manner his personality of good and evil...and not Jesus Christ's character of goodness..
NCK
I like the way you think. Sounds like you are the true expert on this subject. I would like to know more.
Anonymous at 1:16, it was not just GTA that minimized HWA's foreign trips, it was several others who were in Worldwide after GTA's ousting plus several of his own family & entourage that have told the real happenings hidden behind the curtains. Have you ever read Jack Kessler's letter or read old articles about HWA donating $100 thousand dollars to the Royal Opera House of London just so he could rub elbows with Prince Charles? I don't see any similarity to that and the acts of Paul or Peter or any of the REAL apostles of the past. If anything HWA's own actions and behaviors helped contribute to minimizing himself.
I have followed this blog for years and continue to be amazed at the lies and yarns spun by nck. His writing is riddled with grammatical fallacies and spelling errors, yet he has claimed over and over again to be highly educated, a trained diplomat, a world traveler, yada yada yada. This is someone with a serious Walter Mitty complex in need of robust mental health counseling. That some readers of this blog seem to place credibility in him boggles my mind.
7:09, Can you actually contribute evidence (other than conjecture and reasoning) which would impeach what was presented in the video?
It's not as if acknowledging these meetings would require you to keep the sabbath or quit eating pork chops! Apples and oranges there.
Nck first outlined this material several years ago and presented it here in his comments. Now we have a second witness, apparently independent of and, until yesterday, unknown to nck.
It is generally a major event when a commoner gets to have a personal conversation with a single member of royalty, or president of a nation. 300 is phenomenal. These people did not report HWA as a buffoon or scammer to one another, they actually provided recommendations on his behalf to their fellows or peers.
Make no mistake, I consider HWA to be a false prophet, and his religious teachings heresy. But this is involvement in two diverse fields, similar to the case of Brian May, world acclaimed guitar virtuoso from the band Queen, who is also an astrophysicist.
Hi BP8,
Some more then.
(June 18 thanks for falling in my trap)
Ok, here we go.
In the past I found the continuing focus on HWA annoying. Since it was the Church (that is us) who had provided the funding. So when people said "there is no lasting impact of our funds" I got really annoyed since there is.
For example this June 18 commenting fellow was not in my bed in Central Asia when I was flipping channels on chinese tv. So if he is boggled by my statement or believes I am lying he is a nutcase, I could even look up the advertisements stating Kuhn being the most important westerner influencing China over the past decades.
So regarding China. a) Japan and US fighter jets scramble from Okinawa to protect the Pacific. HWA got his famous medal why????) Because the emperor recognized his actions regarding the transfer of occupied Okinawa back to Japan.
So "we" sponsored one of the first Chinese Chairs at the University of Oxford. Did influence a huge number of people. Probably not but it got China a foothold at one of the most prestigious institutions of the Western World at a time when its economy was no stronger than Austria.
So Japan built ties with Israeli (nuclear) companies through HWA's efforts at a time when they were 100 percent oil (Arab) dependent. Thats also why they paid for the first Gulf War to liberate Kuwait which the USA ended with a huge profit. (Guess what plane had flown Japanese Diet members all over Kuwait and the Gulf States a decade before the Gulf War.
Did I mention the Church's pledge to support Marcos'his agricultural reform scheme in the Philipines at the largest military base of that nation with all military and political leaders present. The Philipines you know that nation that had most CIA listening stations at the time.
So 'we'sponsored a British Opera Hall. Millions of people have profited from that "nudging". As people and video guy are focussing on the meeting and opp with Prince Charles.......They are fully missing the point that the meeting was with the Rothchilds wich "we"were involved at at various digs in Israel. (as the R. family had sponsored the founding of most of Israels institutions like Hebrew University or the Knesset building for that matter.....
So one of these South American countries had a "Japanese President"??? So round about 2006 the Japanese Minister of Technology and Education had also studied at AC?????
100.000 dollars might in this day and age not sound like a lot of money. However, some 15 years before the gift to Israeli education center, Arthur Rubinstein was charging 3 dollars for tickets.
So 100.000 for the start up World Wild Life Fund may not sound like a large sum. Yet as any founder or entrepreneur knows. the first 100.000 dollars a company receives are about a million times more important than the millions of dollars the company makes as a going concern.
So Japan through the efforts of the AICF sponsored Kenya's agriculture school. Serving hundres of millions of people arount the world .........as a you are sipping your tea.
So no, not a singe person in the world may remember HWA. Yet many of the institutions that were nudged by "us'are still up and running.
ah 2 more. One of the most prestigious scientific prizes in one of the most advanced countries of the world still lists HWA and Rader as its founders and awards scientists to this day.
Yes HWA bought his Doctor Juris degree in California......Yet the research that this money bought is significant for Constitutional Law to this day....perhaps even more important than ever.
The "Mediation" process in Law sponsored by AICF in its initial stages is now huge in the USA.
The sponsoring of David Nivens foundation for that specific disease I can't remember. Huge breakthroughs for he cariers of that disease....
etc etc
So eat that yams June 18
nck
Behave.
Garner Ted didn't only 'photo ops' about his dad's travelling. He said far more.
.........see you all in church.
Tuesday, June 18, 2024 at 10:46:00 PM PDT = speaks my mind
One more thing. I did mention that HWA already met the House of Saud in 1947 when the Church had about 1500 members or perhaps a bit more.
But this thing goes even before HWA as Haile Selassies father who was also American just as the King of Thailand was an American Citizen, just as Jordanian Royalty and Sadat's wife were/are British (hint hint hint BI politics)
......Haile Selassies father visited the Church of God seventh day while in the USA.
So it was at the Ethiopian residence of Haile Selassie that the Ambassadors recommended HWA to the Chinese goverment........which at that time was only playing Ping Pong with Kissinger.....
So what about HWA flying straight from the South African minister of Foreign Affairs to Israel extending "greetings.......Of course the South African Nuclear weapons provided by the Israeli have since then been returned........yet this is Cold War Spiel better than fiction.
Yes HWA was the first person to ever fly from an Arab Nation straigth to Jerusalem......instead of Tel Aviv.
The funniest thing ever when the GII flew straight from Damascus to Amman through the Jordan Valley with Israeli on one wing and Syrian Mig on the other......2 countries at war.
Many Ambassadors commenting that HWA achieved more goodwill for the USA in the countries of their stationing than they could have in their official capacities......
So the most insignificant and poorest countries ever like Nepal and Bhutan.....and people harping on this blog about HWA giving away our money to Kiwani elites.
Yet, just have a look at your google map and see that these nations are stationed exactly in between the large upcoming superpowers China and India, that needed to be swayed to our "way of living" and admit it .......non of you ever saw the size of the US Embassy in Nepal as relative to its "geopolitical significance through its location.....
And "five eyes" is to the 1990's what US&BIP was in the '60's.
nck
I can guarantee you if someone from the CIA or state department had met with HWA with the idea of using him as a conduit for information that after they had met & evaluated HWA himself they would have put the kibosh on that idea as he would have failed the qualifications and the necessary talents one needs to possess as a possible unofficial. agent. They would have soon concluded he lacked the honesty and that his main underlying goal of his actions was attention for himself. Kanye West would be more reliable that HWA. He might blather about peace yet he could not get along in peace with Ramona or members of his own family.
I don't know Nck, but it is not hard to fabricate connections from coincidental events or bolster up the importance of related (even causal) events. This does not require lying or bad intent, but we see these "conspiracy theories" all the time. Some may be true or have truth within them, but even the Kardashians created a furor around them simply by growing their celebrity. HWA used money and gifts (including the projects ambassador students served on) to bend the ear of smaller leaders, got his name on multiple institutions that he donated to, thus he became more and more known. His charisma seemed effective on some of the leaders and fell flat on others. He was viewed over time as relatively harmless and was allowed access and the leaders always appreciated gifts/money.
If HWA was knowingly used as an agent, I also believe that with his narcissism and ego, this would not have been kept quiet. Aaron Dean and many others would not have kept it quiet.
June 19 :11:43
Not bad at all.
2 rules 1) Follow the money 2) whom does it serve
If you have a chance to visit In UN Headquarters in NYC. Have a look at the painting where all the builders are building One World from fragmented pieces. If you are more into entertainment there's fun movies like Charlie Wilson's War or "The boat that Rocks"..... Just nice entertainment.
Now back to the show. Remember when we paid 10000 dollars for tickets to fly Dr Siingh to Japan for some critical support for the World Court
I was educated by judges on the 1947 Tokyo Tribunal and it was India that presented the dissenting opinions at that particular "American" Trial. rendering the Tribunal dead.
Now it was payback time for Japan and join the new International Order early seventies.
I believe the topic of HWA is way over your head as you may be blindsided by the religious tenets of the enigma...
Nck
1143 writes, "if HWA was knowing used as an agent"??? I guess that's the million dollar question.
I've read a lot of strange speculation in times past regarding HWA and his handlers, Rader, Kuhn and Gotah. I too am curious how much HWA actually knew about what was really going on or if he was just being used to accomplish someone else's agenda.
Rader's Wikipedia page seems to indicate HWA was just a stooge on a vanity trip during these times while Rader was calling the shots and answering to a higher power.
Years ago I stumbled across a couple of articles where both Armstrongs were implicated with satanically influenced sources. One is titled, " Satanist Insider Exposes His Heros" by Aloysius Fozdyke (henrymakow.com, Feb.2, 2022).
After going through a long list of names, Fozdyke (the insider) thanks "H.W. and G.T. Armstrong for showing the way and the Hillsong church."
What "the way" means is not explained or discussed, although Fozdyke in this and other articles presents himself as a Chinese sympathizer who believes China is the ultimate model for the coming New World Order.
Another article from Jan. 3, 2010, edited by Fozdyke, "Australian Adept Unveiled World Satanic Control in 2004" records an explosive deathbed confession by Peter Naragonan, aka Frater 616, that "reveals the pervasive worldwide power of organized Satanism, which was synonymous with the illuminati".
Frater explains "he got involved in a satanic group in university in 1971, which consisted of the most educated, wealthy and corrupt people to have ever existed, and their influence was international". A partial list of past and influential members included
" J.P. Morgan, Drs. James McDonald and Rene Hady, the Kennedy's, Irvin Berlin, Groucho Marx, Elvis Presley, GARNER TED ARMSTRONG, Sammy Davis Jr., Ronald Reagan, Edmond Heath, the Bush's, George Lucas, Steven Spielberg, and Gerald Ford".
(henrymakow. com. Sept. 30, 2021).
What this all means I can't say, but Remember, I'm just the messenger, and I'm giving this the way I found it. It's either a complete smear job or someone thought enough of the Armstrong's contribution to an agenda to mention them by name. Who really knows?
Bp8
The booklet "The Wonderful World Tomorrow" exactly predicts Chinese model for the world to come. All the Uigurs and Tibetan and eventually Americans as nice culrural elements, yet fully succumbing to technologically monitored and clean society... reports by the big five consultancy firms spearhead by Kuhn influencing Chinese top leaders the past 25 years.
Very interesting in this regard listening to the tapes with Raderand Armstrong adressing the Chinese leadership yet for sure not critizing their model....
of course everyone who has studied at a western university understanding the "strong invisible hand from some place" as a reference to capitalism bringing the change. State Capitalism in this case. Hell, even my high school buddies started yelping about the "invisible hand" at our reunion, imitating our funny economics teacher.
Nck
One more thing
Some people say it was the Tkaches who destroyed the Church.
Yet Stan Rader was a paid consultant to the sole legal owner of the Corporation until 2002.
A Corporation that altered its mission to being a "Christian Church" the moment the Cold War ended.....
Nck
Well, nck, if what you are saying has any large amount of truth in it, then it is assuredly over my head as I have not read up on Rader, yet I simply think there is a large amount of fiction in this. Intuitively, it simply doesn't seem plausible that HWA was a knowing agent. He claimed too many things for himself that were the work of others, so, I simply cannot see him keeping this to himself. He would have been claiming he was both witnesses.
Hi 3:35
At June 18: 8:03 I specifically stated that HWA did not know much about anything.... except the religion he certainly believed in..... Since the rise of the American Empire was the exact fulfillment of the promises in his youth. What did the Romans know about the rise and fall of their Empire except that it was, that they were selling wine and fish in it and that it was great? What does the oil know about the engine?
Little did that Turkish guy that shot the Pope know about KGB involvement and steering, rather than his own motives. When you do the typing at work, what do you know about the owners or investors strategic plans for the company and it's planned merger or coming layoffs the next year? HWA did not know more about Switzerland in his sermons than any average kid. Or Syria, except that.... "they" brought some great ideas to him....
Nck
As compared to the great Empires of Britain, France, Germany, Austria, HWA was born in a mediocre non influential agricultural country. Simple Plain, but with an indomitable spirit to grow in size and power.
HWA died in the unrivaled Superpower of all ages, all powerful, almighty, yet "benevolent". Like Moses he died just before we entered the promised land of the '90s.
The booklet "modern Romans" provides a clue as to the utopia of his youth as compared to the moral rot of power. As a Roman nonetheless HWA fulfilled the particular double role of Mercurius. The messenger. The messenger of the gods, the messenger bringong trade.
For example the Greek visit. 1)church members would see "the taking of the gospel to Greece 2) tradesman would see the" unseen hand of economics through monetary policy the world's single superpower and a representative of the 7th economic power being the Rotary club of the State of California. 3) Policy makers would see an American visiting the elites at a critical junction in time where they had to decide on joining the EU,shouting and yelling that if they would not join their country would he destroyed either by nuclear weapons or economically.
So what do you do when the Gods threaten annihilation or trade........ That's the American way, that's Armstrong Promise to the core, that is what BI is.
nck
Too many see being an 'cia' or 'government' operative as a James Bond Or mission impossible life. Looking at history that's not how they always operate.
Herbert was highly intelligent and like him or loathe him had active courage at times. But he had weaknesses that could be used in manipulation either conscious or unconscious to even him.
It is established fact that hollywood level actors and entertainment 'stars' also had been used at various times by the cia. It is not a conspiracy theory to at least consider how the government leaders of various departments may have viewed Herbert Armstrong to their own advantage.
Exactly Wednesday, June 19, 2024 at 10:49:00 PM PDT
99,9% of what is being said of World Economic Forum or Bilderbergers is untrue.
Yet still we have the most influential people on earth "coordinating their thoughts on topics."
When I spoke to the marketing executives of the Big Corporations it was the closest ever to Prophecy as to what food the people around me would eat the next couple of months, or where the oil would be drilled the next 30 years.
These are the people that depend on "foreknowledge" and make it.......
nck
So when one sees him yelling at the Greek, Egyptian, Japanese or Chinese elites about nuclear destruction and annihilation......
Are we seeing Mathew C. Perry?
Are we seeing Mercury the Messenger of the Gods?
Are we seeing the ideas man for the Chicago Chamber of Commerce journal??
Are we seeing an Apostle bringing the Prosperity Gospel?
nck
The more nck writes the more stupid this all sounds. Half of the stuff he says is a load of crap.
Hey, nck. Would you describe HWA as being an early globalist? All of our post WW-II presidents from a certain point forward until a brief intermission from 2017 to 2021, were very gung ho globalists. Do you feel as if HWA via his travels and meetings might have augmented that? Nixon opening up China, etc?
BB
BB...
HWA was an impressionable young man when Wilson was President.
Study Wilson a bit more. This was also the time of the League of Nations. Also the time of Carnegies initiatives on World Peace and the World Court.
The (late 19th century) mediocre farming nation USA was setting its baby steps on the world stage. Very interesting to see the political parties adapting from isolationism to internationalism early 1900
HWA worked for the Chicago Chamber of Commerce - journal) Very interesting institution, still the place where world agricultural prices are established.
He was the ideas guy for the "commerce journal" interviewing the top guys at say Ford Motor Company..... Looking for economies of scale, export markets. Hell, California was the 7th economic power in the world...... Some Rotary Club to be a member of. And of course his formative years getting acquainted with internationalist literature in his uncles printing house.... Socialism preached that no German Workers should fight French workers or American blue collars. Of course this model failed might Ely at WWI. So a new better and improved model for (quaker) non violence world peace was needed.
Edward Bernays, the father of marketing transferred the "pursuit of happiness" to the model of consumerism at the the 1939 NY "World Tomorrow" Fair.
HWA was the very incarnation of the secular route the world was going to take after WW2 under American leadership.
The very incarnation.... Or as the Lebanese President called HWA.... A navigator for world leaders.......
But simple Plain HWA would only say..... I was born in the days of horse and carriage and now live in the Age of airplanes....... and recognized that man had remained the same regardless of technological advances..... So the Quest for a model to have people live in harmony continued......
As Edward Bernays as the first public Relation man had endeavors earlier in the 1920's.
So...... a strong"invisible hand"is something all (free market) economists, nuclear deterrent politicians, and religion ist come together and can agree on.
Today however we see some criticism on the flaws by the greens and sanders etc etc etc
Nck
To keep it simple I'd refer to Wikipedia on Wilsonianism.
I particularly liked this quote on the connection between Foreign Policy and Morality.
"Belief that the foreign policies of democracies are morally superior because the people under democracies are inherently peace-loving."
The same idealism would be echoed by Carters Christian Morality Foreign Policy.... If course those years would be the high days of AICF.
Nck
Seems like HWA was a brilliant man of his times who fucked us all over with his original message in order to gain traction and get his "real" message out to those he considered to be his true peers.
Hard for us to love him, but apparently world leaders had plenty of love for him.
Dr. J and Mr. H!
10:39
Thats the easy way out.
The hardest thing to face is that he might just have genuinely believed every word he said and thing he did and as he often said used every talent and experience he had gained to bring it about (which is the Quaker core creed as adopted in general American culture) ......
and that that genuine belief was the exact reason we believed it too.....
Nck
There is still one thing I just cannot get past. Having given credit where credit is due, and having written all that I did above, that someone could come in on top of all of these authority figures, getting ear time from them, and motivating them as he apparently did, that still puts HWA at the top of my personal shit list!!! Many of them were hardly empaths, or altruistic. They were his fellow narcissists, his fellow "government from the top down/my way or the highway" types. Can any of us envision what the New World Order would be like if HWA had been these leaders' unanimous choice as its leader? You see, I believe most of us can extrapolate and envision that, and it would be a tremendously ugly, dangerous picture. Maybe if he had properly understood the concept of grace, it would have been different. They would have belatedly realized that he was programmed to rule with a fist of iron. Gassing a crowd to disburse them for a photo op with a Bible in front of an historic church wouldn't even be noteworthy!
BB
I think Armstrong was a true believer in his role as the mighty instrument God was using on earth. I believe he accepted his own hypocrisy and perversion as secondary to his elite role as the anticipated restorer of true christianity for which the world had been waiting for almost 1900 years. He's been dead and largely forgotten now for almost 40 years. A little Ozymandius exposed and reviled by most than whitewashed and respected by a few.
Cognitive Dissonance says it all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
Sounds like the experience of any European, working in some sort of middle management position for an American company, especially in sales, banking, finance or both... "although the pay was good".....
I know most non American Nato military feel the same about American leadership style, leaving little room for personal thinking on a problem to be solved being bullies. and of course we need to be thankful to have the power that they represent around.......
Even or especially as a kid I realized everything about WCG's Governing model was wrong and only mitigated because the great man himself was still alive. Since his presence enforced both the good and the bad.
The only exception is the Singaporese semi dictatorial model. I guess, that is why Asians and HWA had mutual respect for their work ethic, governance model and quality control and the Malayan leaders even had their kids sent to Ambassador.
Nck
What about faith? All the ground of these many comments are extremely dry.
My how you love Wikipedia.
Why assume nck is a he? Do males comment as nck does?
Goes to illustrate how dangerous the deluded can be to the unsuspecting, and easily turned!
'The more nck writes the more stupid this all sounds. Half of the stuff he says is a load of crap.
Thursday, June 20, 2024 at 12:15:00 AM PDT"
The acknowledgement that at least 50% is factual is a huge improvement........
nck
Some one wrote that HWA's ego and narcissism would have given himself away if he was used as an informal government agent. I agree with this completely. I don't know if anyone remembers both I remember the almost mandatory standing ovations that took place whenever he was announced at the Feast of Tabernacles, especially after 1978 and GTA's departure. He then proceeded to speak of all his great accomplishments & name drop world leaders and repeat himself and stumble thru a 2 hour sermon that had already went extra with the sermonette and "special music" I can tell you with 100% certainty that neither the Carter or Reagan administration would have touched the old pedophile with a 10 foot pole. It still is beyond comprehension the idolatry and exaltaion of HWA. He really tried to de-emphasize Christ and elevate himself.
Why do people comment who never studied either Foreign Policy Papers on Carters directives to the State Department or the former Governor of California's (Reagan) cabal express rallying of the Religious Right to get him elected as the President during the time WTM telecast arbitron ratings were highest ever.
Just do not even try since it is immediately clear you know nothing about either Reagan or Carters Policy making, Foreign Affairs or even how the public was mobilized to even vote for the.It's sad to read.your dumb comment.
Nck
12:19.Thats why most people in the USA are overweight and have a history smoking cigarettes. Non of that is rational or even a medical condition...
Nck
Yes. Faith. That's what I said. Faith and hope propels humanity forward....
Elon Musk proves that every day with his endeavor to fulfill Herbert W. Armstrong promise that ultimately..... Mam would inherit Space..... - DNA being the immortal part of man.... HWA's promises will come to pass.... since he was only the messenger of the gods.... Nck
1:57 To even begin to describe the nuttiness of 1:57'remark. I mean the allegation he poses was only publicized in the most minor of local newspapers....... while the real dough during the receivers hip was surpressed by "friends" at the real press... The LA Times...
Nck
Because tone is not conveyed well it might have sounded as if I (Anon 2:04 above) believed Armstrong's claims. I certainly do not. Here is the same post with a few edits:
"I think Armstrong was a true believer in his delusion that he was the mighty instrument God was using on earth. I believe he accepted his own hypocrisy and perversion as secondary to his elite role as the anticipated restorer of true christianity for which the world had been waiting for almost 1900 years. He's been dead and largely forgotten now for almost 40 years. He was a little Ozymandias exposed and reviled by most and whitewashed and respected by a deluded few."
Nck,
it is hard to simply accept something merely because you say so. You may just be a gifted creative type that formulates a narrative with some facts strung together with your conjecture and imagination. I know referencing documents can be a drag for the claims you make, but you've got to do some of that or there is simply no reason to accept any part of what you are saying. I think you have in the past said you are a lawyer, so you know how necessary it is to provide facts to back up what you are saying.
Aw, what's wrong with a good cigarette in moderation, now and again? Still haven't opened my carton of Newports which I bought for election night!
Axially, some of the closet smokers in the old WCG were counted as worthy to be spared the horrors of the tribulation! (Assuming there is such a thing, but again, we'll know for sure on election night).
9:42
I have no intention whatsoever to present a case on this forum to a bunch of anons.
I do however present a narrative that for 80 percent can very easily be verified through open sources.
The moment I notice that a person at least acknowledges the easily verifiable 80 percent factual information and asks an intelligent question on the remaining "nckian conjecture" I might just put the effort in to answer that.
However since I was ready to do that 10 years ago and had the sources readily available, my absence here for years shows that I am not much inclined to find my source material again. I mean I'm 10 comments I mentioned so many stories. But hey... perhaps.. I'm a nice guy.
Nck
12:47 The Church of God bulletin South Dakota in the 1870's explicitly called out an old lady for smoking a pipe.... So No, don't do it.
Another thing in the 1910*s was the discouraging of members visiting the icerink....
A couple of years ago I saw a documentary about these icerink entertainment places and knew what occurred, but I forgot. I know there are academic papers on the topic.... Akin to people addicted to computer games...
Nck
Nobody has any business smoking in a society where no one drinks common tap water from the faucet anymore. They all require bottled water now, so what in tarnation are they doing smoking.
Well if the WCG smokers were spared from this 'n that, then why didn't El Presidio Apostolico HWA just tell everyone to follow Paul's word in Philippians 1:23 & chuck it, & go for the Jim Jones kool-aid too? Why waste time in a bad world if smokers are all leaving town early.
I dont know what kind of skunk weed somebody is smoking but after the Jonestown massacre of 1978, my father(a world wide member since the early 70's) was told HWA & Worldwide was actually put under official scrutiny because of his previous failed prophecies regarding 1975 and possible mass exodus to the Jordanian desert/ Petra and the authorities not wanting to see a repeat of the Jim Jones catastrophe. I guess the government could pay him with a Harrod's gift certicate for a "personal gift" for Ramona or a life time supply of Harvey's Bristol Creme if he was an unofficial government agent. Seems like this would be contradictory for him to do so since he forbid church members the right to vote.
And to think the E.U. wasn't doing hardly jack-squat back then either in regard to any kind of regulated global curency, no strongman yet for the world to marvel at, nor any significant Sunday blue laws closing global commerce once a week. The entire 1970s decade seemed poised to usher in 80s Reganomics, Soviet Glasnost & Perestroika, & East Germany joining the West with wall crumbling down.
The booklet 1975 In Prophecy should have been whistleblown big time more prominently when Lira & Francs & Marks were still traded, & no Euro or Bitcoin even peeking out yet. Also no collapsing Petrodollar near 1975 either.
1975? Olivia de Havilland & Kirk Douglas hadn't even lived out their 100 years yet at that time.
With a nearly 90 million 1975 dollar tax free cash flow. HWA had only gathered a personal 3 million dollars at the end of his lifetime........ You don't get it do you.... The payment was "the open door"... that somehow miraculously opened....
That people like Nakasone, with a grueling 1980 OESO schedule in Paris would make time for him.... whilst HWA was travelling from Laken (B) to UNEsco Paris as Rader left 1.5 hours earlier with a commercial flight instead of flying together in the G2.... "to arrange a few things"......
Nck
So for those who don't know how some operations are financed and think all government spending is budgetted, should once again, watch "Charlie Wilson's war" or for the intellectuals here study Reagan, Ollie and Iran Contra Papers.
For those who feel their 30.000 1960 parents were duped by the (prophesying nothing) 1975 booklet.
Already in 1963 the planning for a huge Campus was publicized, in 1967 it was openly published that it would contain a 20 million 1970 dollars Auditorium Facility for concerts also.
Would one belief for a minute when building started according to the Masterplan in 1968, that all members believed this investment would run for 1 year.....
Come on..... the banks provided a 20 year lease, which payment was finished in 1995, the exact moment Tkach pulled the plugs on the Church,as Rader was a payed consultant until 2002 and Tkach his son presided over his funeral.....
Nck
This might be off subject, but I'm curious about Tkach, what do we really know about him?
When we came into the church in 1963, there was a family from Chicago named Apostolos in our congregation. The word was they had family back home that had mob connections! They were referring to Joe.
Also, is it true what I once heard that Joe's real rise in power was after he caught Dean Blackwell in bed with his (Tkach's) wife? From there Dean takes him to Pasadena and the rest is history?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Mrs. Tkach was always reported to be in some kind of ailment & ill health, in WCG we hardly saw what she looked like until well into Tkach Sr.'s admin., he unveiled a large wonderful portrait of her that some artist painted.
It would be very distressing to learn if Dean Blackwell did anything naughty with her. If the naughtiness did happen, it would be even more distressing to hear modern COGers describe it as just something that humans do along the way toward perfection.
When he was on the Royal Yaght Brittania with the Rothchilds it was like a square peg in a round hole.... Nothing like the giggly Lady Diana around fatherly HWA at the Southampton gardens. Even in Church he was presented as a "tough guy" kicking out demon possessed people from his office. Personally I forgave him most, but my 100 percent break with him was around 2005,whe on te internet it was made clear that the "Pacific Military Service Record" as presented to me was a lie...... For personal reasons this is less acceptable to me than the squandering and theft of a billion dollars of assets, reducing that to ashes in such unprofessional and immoral manner that not even he could profit from it..
Nck
Tkach's wife suffered from some kind of mental health ailment. She eventually ended up living with her son-in-law, Doug Horchak, who kept her hidden and out of sight in his 11-room home. She was never mentioned and never seen.
nck is a fraud, plain and simple, living in a delusional landscape full of conspiracies, contradictions, an absence of critical thinking skills, and bad grammar. He (or she) needs a serious medical intervention.
Does that billion dollars count if it's invested in a herd of "white elephants"? How does one even go about selling colleges? This "stuff" was for a single purpose. The anomalous modern honeycomb buildings are an example. They were out of character for the rest of the neighborhood and had to be demolished. Conversely, mansions are not generally suitable as college classrooms and dorms.
If we switch to the automotive realm for comparison, it was as if HWA had invested in a collection of '49-"59 DeSotos, "57 Ramblers, 1960s Corvairs, and '57-60 Edsels. What buyer would even be interested in these?
Pepperdine College, later Pepperdine University, ended up abandoning their South Central LA hodge-podge campus, and building a whole new campus in Malibu. Having been on the LA campus, I was blown away when tearing up the Pacific Coast Highway on my Triumph, and suddenly saw the new campus. They probably didn't appreciate it, but i just had to detour and ride through the new campus because it was so amazing.
10:29..... The way you phrase it makes your opinion sound as......just an opinion.... there is, actually zero value in what you wrote..... re read your comment nck
June 22 comment
Again an example of total idiocy.
EVERYTHING that the Church under HWA's leadership had acquired had increased on value tenfold. Especially, the art, paintings, silver and AC college grounds.
Even the land without the buildings was worth at least 500 million dollars in 1985.
The reason it sold for nearly nothing was because both the Church and the City wanted to keep intact the architectural historical integrity of the entire site and not have it sold in parcels to real estate developers.
No of the art sold at a loss. On fact nothing was sold at a loss, yet the profits could have been sky high...
Nck
If nck is a lady, I would love to meet an old girl like that, might spark off lively banter on coffee dates at Whole Foods inside seating area ☕☕
But if nck is a fella, then I gotta hand it to ya chap for at least not writing like the common camo-wearing, pickup-truck driving-but-never-picking-up-stuff-with-it, good ol' boy types prevailing in my local area who all die early due to smoking and eating greasy tavern food during their fleeting 55 yrs. or so.
I don't think 10:29 went to college or university. Therefore, he never learned to recognize or appreciate eccentric professorial types. Reality is, such educators break up the insufferable monotony of the institutions.
For any old timers out there, contrast Howard Clark, or David Jon Hill with most of the faculty at AC, 'dena. Oops, now wait a minute! Forgot about Uncle Roddy who couldn't teach a class or preach a sermon without mentioning masturbation, the whores in Hollywood, and all the homosexuals. Guess we did have our share of the eccentric subgenre!
BB
I would like to know what the young HWA though of Prohibition, & of how Passover wine along with FOT glad tidings with wine & strong drink would have been accomodated & balanced & rightly divided between following the law here, & following the law there.
(would he have had Al Capone set up shop with an FOT speakeasy in the basement of Tommy Bartlett Amusements at the Wisc. Dells...)
Such a shame Bricketwood was closed already early eighties last century...
. Uncle Roddy would have had a ball with the Brit fashion of wearing pink, shirts, ties and whatever bright color available at pret a porter....By that time however he was already exiled to the distant islands of........ Hawai....
Him preaching at the Feast is my very first memory from when I was 4 years old and studied the lighting above....
I wished he had preached in the manner he taught classes, my 24 year old mother would have been shocked, which would have saved me a lot of time.....
Nck
BB 1:52,
Maybe HWA would have ordered a bunch of worldwide divorces within 2nd marriages, & then presided as officiant over a bunch of retroactive re-marriages.
Liz Taylor would've been stuck back with Richard Burton hittin' the sauce. Edward VIII would have stayed on the "Davidic" throne instead of abdicating, since HWA would've decreed Ms. Wallis go back to hubby #1 E.W. Spencer or to hubby #2 Ernest Simpson but not #3 Edwardian VIII. Which of the 9 chaps would HWA have had Zsa Zsa Gabor go back to...
Hey, Jim Bakker would've went back to Tammy Faye under HWA!
Engelbert Humperdinck would have been banned from singing the hit, "Please Release Me". (I never liked that song as a kid anyway since Pops was cheatin' on our Momsy)
Would Madonna Ciccone still be with Sean Penn under an HWA world order...
A lot of people had a great deal of fun with Bricket Wood, nck.
One AC "urban legend" had to do with a transfer student to England from Texas. During Ambassador Club the Texas student was chosen to evaluate an upper classman's speech. Apparently, flustered at finding no negatives, and fully aware of the dreaded "whitewash brush" the dude from Texas closed his evaluation with, "All in all, a great speech! But you really need to work on that British Accent of yours! There were times when I could barely understand you!"
It was one of those "Well Duh!" moments for the club!
Blimey, that is funny! what a clever bloke from TX.
I like that Renee Zellwegger/Bridget Jones in reverse quote.... It was quite remarkable to have these Texans, South Africans, Post War Germans, Collapsed Empire Brits, work it out together.... and BB asked if HWA was conducting a globalist experiment....
In the Autobiography he is thinking hard about opening AC in either Lugano or Geneva in 1947..... Non of that localist isolationism stuff in america... no a school where cultures would be integrated through the study of language, direct contact and perhaps skills that were available in Geneva....
only then more cheap former Chicagoian summer retreat real estate became available in Pasadena... and the rest is
history....
Nck
Yeah, nck, wasn't it nice of the CIA to turn Herbie instead of arresting him for treason for prophesying German victory of WW-II on the World Tomorrow program in the early '40s? The old Radio Church of God and Ambassador College were undetectable as a CIA storefront. I never met any spies (except for a couple fellow students we won't mention!) on campus during the '60s. The Assyria prophecies made me wary of some of the international students from Germany, though.
Sorry ''bout that re-hetorical question about Herbie bein' a globalist. Had to do it because I just knew that as soon as you had made your appearance it would be on that Watkins dude's mind!
BB
Nck,
Intelligent deluded people I know did not get their teeth fixed and withheld their kids from school in the 1968-1972 time frame.
Hard to believe, but they were already deep in cognitive dissonance, so auditorium spending made little difference.
Hi BB.
Yes. 1) As verifiably HWA wrote in a Pre - Operation Barbarossa Plain Truth...... "Here on my desk I have Germanies plans for an invasion of Ukraine Russia......"
2) Isolationist USA was battling Roosevelt on all political front to just not meddle in that "European Civil War", that turned out to be a a Worldwar after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor
To suggest that the general American Public was in any way prepared to fight a 2 front World War is of course completely false....
HWA's writings and radio broadcasts about Nazi's and Japanese Invading California can be seen within a general operation to open America's eyes for what was coming
(in the same manner advertising people know many months in advance what is going to water once mouth at the next Harley Davidson show...
or the supermarkets new and advanced French fries for that matter.
Nck
Yes Earl........ very interesting comment.....I'm not denying that...... my point is....... did YOU get your teeth fixed......
Nck
will they have to dine on oatmeal & Gerber baby food @ FOT when they decline dental care for years
We did go to the dentist back in the '50s. My dad, however, who tested in the genius range for IQ, believed per HWA's anti-medical doctrines that it was sinful to take novocaine, and had a tooth pulled without it.
It was difficult growing up in Armstrongism, when the most intelligent people one knew (parents), who could argue anyone into a corner, and so logically, were such fanatical die hards, and went to extremes themselves to set complying examples.
We not only had to read the ingredients on foodstuffs growing up, but on our clothing labels because at that time, per Leviticus, you were not to wear clothing made from mixed materials.
Implicit, instant obedience was also required, because in the future if we hesitated or questioned an order from the parents, it might get us caught by the Germans, and our whole family captured or killed.
We regard the Flurrys and Dave Pack today as being extreme, and being members of RCG and PCG as cruel and unusual punishment, but growing up in the earlier Radio Church of God was much more extreme back in the day. Makes RCG and PCG almost appear as Laodicean by comparison. And, I knew families back then who were even more fanatical than my own family.
BB
Yes. That's true BB.
I was there.
Our/My Pastors were former Medical Doctors and Apothecarists/Pharmacists.
We grinded our own flour for bread and pancakes in the 1970's.
I never experienced the clothing thing though....
And Germans I did not fear, because the Pastor who had raised our congregation was a German and because of my wider family I was well aware we had kicked their buts very well and they were occupied........ until of course 1992.
I take notice, no comment on the PT articles forwarning the American Public for a German invasion of Ukraine even before the USA was involved in WW2.
Nck
No, they'll whittle new dentures outta the leftover teeth of their deceased underlings with the same 1700s technology Geo. Washt. used, & mount them in lead.
Was that home ground bread as good as this new Ezekiel 4:9 bread nowadays?
Bob has a Lev. 19:19 & a Deut. 22:11 article citing the mixed linen & wool :
"Clothes
The Bible talks about linen, leather, and wool being used for clothes.
It also says not to wear clothes where linen and wool would be mixed together in Leviticus 19:19 and Deuteronomy 22:11. Basically, from a physical perspective this results in a garment with different shrinkage and hence a product that does not stay together well. So, we are basically to avoid plant materials combined with animal hair for clothing. Synthetic fibers would seem to be allowed.
That said, in general undergarments made out of 100% natural plant materials are best for health, particularly for women. So, while there can be a place for synthetics, they generally should not be used for undergarments. As far as socks go, however, wool lasts longer than cotton."
https://www.cogwriter.com/health.htm
Coincidentally, I've been binge watching "The Americans" TV series, a fave from my collection, since I hadn't watched it in several years. It's about a husband and wife KGB spy team who were specially trained in a Potemkin Village specifically created to resemble an American city, so that they could live on assignment, undetected, in the USA during the Cold War. I'm sure that the series is heavily fictionalized, however there is also much factual material included, making it a fairly accurate representation of events which most certainly actually happened during the Cold War.
Claim is made by a Russian overseer on the program that the USA lost 400,000 soldiers during WW-II, while Russia's casualties were 27 Million. And you can Google "Russian Casualties of World War II" and actually verify this. It's not as if I'm being like "Nazi-boy" to repeat this here, but it is another example of other peoples' histories and contributions being ignored or downplayed for the sake of political expedience. Leaders had to have known about this in the aftermath of WW-II, and it must have played into the decision to "give" Russia East Germany.
Back in 2001, someone calling himself "Robert England" had a website theorizing that HWA, and the church and college were a CIA front, and he was attempting to collect information in an effort to prove this. He had made some leaps based on the moneys paid to broadcast "The World Tomorrow" from the Pirate Radio (Offshore ships) Stations. I thought it was interesting as a theory, but simultaneously absurd. Herbert Armstrong harbored an intense and irrational hatred for rock music. I was also aware of some of the materials being put out by my old AC dorm mate Orlin Grabbe, who in his various capacities, knew some "spooks", and other questionable characters. Orlin's site was a virtual clearing house for esoterica which included his own writings, and many bizarre theories, but nothing provable.
There is a lit of crazy stuff floating around out there. The best we can do is to apply ourselves to stamping out those things which ruin peoples' lives.
BB
BB
Rader had Ukranian Jewish background. So to support the State of Israel or especially the theory of the USA being cousins would be a natural thing.
Orlin had interesting ladies on his website and of course that article on Strauss, with the claim that German Intelligence was aware of his AC visit as they were monitoring all contacts of local politicians for obvious reasons.
It boggles the mind how you do not understand the pirate radio theory and misrepresent it.
Many like Radio London were directly sponsored by agents others were funded through advertisers, The Church being most prominent as one of the largest American Media buyers of its time.
Who cares if HWA liked or didn't like Rock Music??? He was the one indirectly sponsoring the CIA Opp to sway the British and Mainland youth to American capitalist culture in a time that swaying to communism was all the rage and terrorism was defined as Rote Armee Faktion, or Red Brigades in Italy.
.. etc and Radio Europe Radio Monaco etc receiving funding through WTM
Nck
I believe I do understand the Pirate Radio phenomenon, nck, because I know the history of the Beatles (including them honing their craft in Berlin), the British rock n roll invasion, and the staidness and stodginess of the BBC during that era, although there were programs like "Tops of the Pops", etc. When the original British Invasion groups began in cities throughout the British Isles, many of them were a reflection of the American rock explosion of 1955-56. They were doing covers of Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Gene Vincent, Eddie Cochran, Muddy Waters, John Lee Hooker, Buddy Holly, etc. Then they got into Tamla, and early Motown, and progressed into writing their own music. The Teddy Boys, Mods, and Rockers (motorcycle and motor scooter juvenile delinquent groups) mirrored Marlon Brando, and James Dean. The Rolling Stones began as a trad jazz group, and morphed into the blues. It was an entire cultural movement, and reenergized the US youth culture as it reached the USA. The early rock n rollers realized the second acts of their musical careers as they found huge audiences in England, some of them actually making money for the first time.
The CIA was involved in bringing this music to the communist block. They had witnessed the natural power it had over young people, and those who thought young. The movement did not need outside assistance in the British Isles, because it was happening organically. I'm sure that the money from the World Tomorrow broadcast helped the Pirate Radio ships, just as it did the clear channel 50,000 watt AM radio stations across the USA, and the Mexican 200,000 watt "border blasters" like XEG and XELO. You also must remember that Herbert W. Armstrong could not get on the BBC, which was a radio and TV monopoly controlled by the British government. That's the only similarity he bore to the rock phenomenon.
Look, carnally, I'd like to tar and feather HWA, the WCG, and AC, any way I can because of all the damage they did, and their heirs continue to do. But, my innate sense of fairness demands that I do it clean. I've always been interested in accomplishing that by using truth. There's a lot of stuff about them which falls into conspiracy theory territory, and I can't use it because it is unprovable. There's also negative stuff that the remnants want us to believe is all conspiracy theory, and they even reject and blind themselves to facts to get there. You watched me over the past week realize certain things about HWA's meetings with the great of the world. I'm still adjusting to that. But I really need more information before I make the jump to HWA as a total CIA pawn, although they and the FBI would most certainly have known about him. Because of the quirkiness of his belief system, I believe that even the Bilderbergs and the Trilateral Commission would have treated him much the same as Christian radio and television treat Armstrongism today. More like as a threat. If anything, they would have wanted to sabotage him and suppress his message, as they did with the Black Power movement of the 1960s. Let's face it. The communists would have had greater use for a group which fervently believed and taught that the US and English speaking capitalist nations were about to be conquered. It would have been particularly interesting to them that converts to a sizable and growing group refused to participate in the military, even to defend their country in the case of an invasion. They would have duly noted parallels between their own system of government and that of HWA. They would have seen the Millennium as preached by HWA as having been inspired by Lenin himself!
BB
Now Im sure you will never get my point.
The Pirate Stations solely blasted AMERICAN rock and roll toward the British Isles and the European Continent.
The EXPLICIT American cultural colonialism was seen as a huge thread to European culture, morals and power base of its, elites. Especially in Britain Laws were implemented to exorcize Americanism and abhorrent liberal overtake.
Not only through the cultural implications, but also the systemic economic social implications... since No Commercial Broadcasting had ever existed and all European Media was strictly State controlled in the past 1960's, or broadcasting time organized according to distinct political factions.
NON OF THIS COMPLETE revolution was brought about organically. Eventually it was the youth that swayed to American culture... Hell, my schoolmates got arrested and suspended for wearing Jeans.
The youth could just as easily have been swayed to communism and Che Guevara type freedom as Spain, Portugal, Greece were still CIA backed regimes...... Like that of the Shah in Iran that got "liberated" from American backed dictatorship... As the students in Iran saw it at that time. Late sixties the CIA was very concerned both Italy and Germany would fall to Communism as left wing terrorism made their point about the implementation of American type capitalism.
I know you were more concerned about Vietnam than European Affairs at the time.
Vietnam, Yet another stumbling block for the CIA to intervene into winning the hearts and minds of the Europeans by sending their best and brightest to bring about European Unification and send fear into the population through mass media warning about German going alone atrocious history and impending nuclear destruction.... making the Europeans to come together...
Foes a certain 3 million printed issue mass magazine striking fear in the general populace at every library or London metro station come to mind....
What kind of proof do you need. This is how a Psy op works.
It is impossible to underestimate young Roddys article and travelling through Francos Spain and have that free mass media publication distributed to the general voting public in the USA.
I don't kind people thinking South Africa was a sovereign nation. Yet it was Ronald Reagan who ended thebapartjeudcsystem AFTER SUPPORTING IT UNYIL THE COLD WAR WAS WON.
nck
Nck,
Thankfully all my teeth are doing very well, but they were falling out at that time. lol
Nck, The Pirate ships or stations played the music which was currently on the American Top 40, and during the period before the laws were changed to hold those who aided, conducted business with, or performed services for those who owned and operated such pirate stations guilty of a major crime, British rock and roll dominated the American Top 40. As soon as the BBC responded to the demand for the pirate stations with their own changes to accommodate the music, and as the dreadful new laws took effect, many of the disc jockeys from the Pirate ships capitalized on their popularity by actually going to work for the BBC, continuing that popularity. That is all a matter of history.
Conservative forces here in the USA reacted in much the same way to rock music as you say they did in British Parliament. In the American Southeast, as an example, there was no small concern over the music mixing black and white teenagers in dancing and enjoying the music together. Imagine their reaction to Hendrix! It went against all in which the older generation believed. That's also a matter of history.
All of the public schools which I attended here in the USA forbade the wearing of blue jeans (Levis and Wranglers) to class.
You may find it interesting to read up on the large number of musicians and song writers who lived in Laurel Canyon (Hollywood) during the mid to late '60s, and the backgrounds of their parents. Or the early experiments with lysergic acid diethylamide, first synthesized by Albert Hoffman, tested by the US military on volunteers, and then mass produced independently by Owsley "Bear" Stanley in the San Francisco Bay area as the "Beats" transformed into "Hippies". No branch or agency of government would deliberately foment such a trend or movement on the youth of our country or any ally. This was counter-culture, and it horrified the majority of the American public.
In the USA, the Vietnam war was wiping out the barrios and ghettos, and many reluctant soldiers in the Vietnam conflict were avid drug users. It's the only way they coped. I have no idea who the Europeans were sending off to war, but the privileged, moneyed classes here in the USA were underrepresented in the military of that era.
You are right about one thing. I will probably never "get" your concept of the Pirate ships which broadcast "The World Tomorrow". I believe that that is native to the particular bubble in which you live. I do not know whether that bubble is shared by numerous others, or if it's a personal one. It seems to be informed by considerable misinformation, or disinformation, and a lack of general feel for what was happening in the youth trends of that era. In the absence of public admission, there is no way of really knowing what the CIA did or did not do. They did take credit for Che.
BB
For those interested, check out centerforaninformedamerica.com, where the late David McGowan's archives on Laurel Canyon are preserved. David explored alleged CIA influences and had various theories. My comments as Byker Bob may still appear in the discussions at the ends at the ends of several chapters. Been at this for a long time. Can't live on the "psy op" known as "Armstrongism" alone, ya know!
BB
Since it takes only 2 minutes to verify academic sources. - my bubble. I will for the it simple minded here just refer to wiki which is easily readable and a popular newspaper article. A) just because I will never provide my sources b) because I will never release interested people of their own responsibility to research if they are interested
www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/ronan-orahilly-death-pirate-radio-1960s-entrepreneur-radio-caroline-age-cause-a9486766.html
One academic study is publicized on this blog and wiki is an easy read on radio swan, wiki on radio London also clear on the protection the largest sponsor had through firing dj's for criticizing HWA (so far your counter culture argument.. Firing dj's for critisizing an American conservative preacher imagine that, so far "natural development of the youth movement)
Nck
Maybe HWA knew how many shooters there were on roofs & now-paved over storm drain tunnels in front of grassy knolls to make JFK's head tip "back, & to the left" despite Warren Comm. claiming it was from rear, featuring a whirling twirling magic bullet doing u-turns & somersaults inside the body to carom around & also strike Gov. Connally.
“What Is The Story Behind Herbert Armstrong's Visits With World Leaders?”
Newspapers, radio, and television were controlled by the government in many countries, so Herbert W. Armstrong went in person with his message directly to these various leaders in government.
A British noise group called the “Beetle Bugs” invaded and delivered Satan's master knock-out blow to the USA.
nck said:- wiki on radio London also clear on the protection the largest sponsor had through firing dj's for criticizing HWA (so far your counter culture argument.. Firing dj's for critisizing an American conservative preacher imagine that, so far "natural development of the youth movement)
Nck don't think there is anything very significant here. Kenny Everett, the dj involved, was a very outspoken person, who got fired at other times too.
The World Tomorrow was a major income source for 'Wonderful Radio London', and the church itself threatening to withdraw from the station would have been reason enough to fire Kenny, without needing any help from the CIA.
The church was on plenty of other 'pirate' stations, so could afford to lose one as an example to the other stations.
Don't forget Ambassador College Bricket Wood was open then, and within the broadcast range of Radio London, so the station could be easily monitored.
I wasn't attending, but listened to the stations. I do actually remember one occasion the dj mildly mocking the broadcast. If it was Kenney Everett or not I can't say.
BB says "there is a lot of crazy stuff out there"!!
For those who can't see or want to believe that Satan the devil is the God of this world and therefore the ultimate conspirator, most of these sub-plot exchanges between BB and Nck will not make any sense. However, they do fit into a bigger picture.
Nck--" the CIA opp to sway the youth"?
BB--"the natural power (music) had over young people and those who thought young".
BB-- "the concern over (music) mixing black and white teenagers"?
HAVE YOU WATCHED ANY TELEVISION COMMERCIALS LATELY?
BB-- " the large number of musicians and song writers who lived in Laurel Canyon in the 60's with parents that" worked for the military, military contractors, or intelligence agencies?
It has been suggested that Jim Jones was a CIA opp, and having lived through that, I concur. I'm still not sure how HWA might fit into the scheme of things, but I do know that along with David McGowen, there is considerable information out there about the British invasion and Laurel Canyon.
Mike Williams at sageofquay.com has done a tremendous amount of research on the British invasion in general and the Beatles in particular. He documents to my satisfaction that neither evolved organically, but were Tavistock and British intelligence creations to accomplish the many things listed by BB and Nck. Dr. John Coleman's several books on Tavistock and the Committee of 300 verify this.
One of my favorite quotes by Mike is where he asks, "does this world evolve organically according to a natural flow of events? No! The way the world moves is scripted, manufactured and social engineered by those in control. Look at trends, fads, fashion and pop culture. Who determines this and for what reason?"
BB says, "there is a lot of stuff which falls into conspiracy theory territory that is unprovable". True, but is ANYTHING in this world really provable and trustworthy?
The same tactics Satan used in the Garden and used to turn the masses against Jesus Christ are being used today to accomplish an ultimate goal. We have to be careful about who we recognize as authorities and presenters of "truth". Our well being could depend on it.
Hi Questeruk. I think I made it very clear that I only quoted extremely low threshold articles for this pearl and swine audience. Not the studies about the American Businessmen, Finance people and their connections. The Radio Swan thing is just an appetizer. I have mentioned C Wilson's War movie many times for the uninitiated ordinary people to at least get a feel.
The Church was NOT on plenty of Radio Stations to reach North Western Europe. Even Radio Luxembourg a mega station was not easy to receive. The Luxemburg TV broadcast only reaching the United States Armed Forces in the Bitburg area.
My point was not to prove if the firing of the DJ was normal or not. It was to disprove BB's point that the Revolution and American cultural take over was an unplanned organic event.
I see that BP8 here below is explaining it even better.
Nck
One of the big topics which comes up when you Google "CIA involvement in Rock" is the discussions on whether the CIA wrote "Winds of Change" for the German group The Scorpions, prior to a concert they did in Russia, BP8. There have been numerous visits by famous groups to Russia by this point in time, dating back to the efforts of the Carter administration, and the first American group to appear behind the iron curtain, which was the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band. Music most definitely had a role in the collapse of the Soviet Union, and I really wouldn't question the premise that the CIA was all over that.
My interest in music stems from a life-long fascination with the guitar. Some of the people who don't play, (or try to play) may believe that rock music is simple and that anyone can do it. I watch numerous instructive videos each week, and also concert videos from back in the classic era, shot on location back in the day. The depth to which great guitar players were into their instruments, the tone, the tunings, and what could only be described as finger acrobatics is just incredible. Lately, I've been watching numerous videos featuring Steve Marriott, the late leader of both the Small Faces, and Humble Pie. It is incredible how he could have his fingers in a chord pattern, and simultaneously move his middle and ring fingers around to play lead while also playing the chord. So glad I actually got to see the Pie in concert back in the '70s. Sadly, both the management of Small Faces and Humble Pie were known mob figures, and Steve was left virtually penniless in his post rock star life, playing in small venues and sometimes actually having to collect soda bottles just to have money to eat. He's far from the only one to suffer this fate. The mob was most certainly a much bigger presence, exploiting rock musicians than was the CIA. I've also recently been watching footage on Irish rockers "Thin Lizzy". More sad stories regarding Phil Lynott.
We as a group (former Armstrongites) were programmed to believe that conspiracy theories were a totally natural way of explaining the unexplainable. The bigger the phenomenon, and the more unlikely the happening, the more outrageous the Hisloppian leaps. We were also programmed to look for Satan in everything around us. Me, I just liked and appreciated the music. So many musicians had so many diverse experiences, that any organized attempt to control them would have been like an attempt to herd cats. At heart, many were rebel outlaws, anti-authoritarian to the core. Look at how outspoken so many are even today when authoritarian politicians co-opt their music and use it in their campaigns. It's possible that some were exploited or got a bump from the intelligence community. But, music is such an individual artistic effort that its predominant evolution is organic. Musicians borrow from each other, taking things further, and the result is often something which unites people, at least during the time they're listening together, even if they don't speak the same language. Many theologians, mostly conservative ones, are very envious of that type of power, because it thwarts their efforts to collect people. So they find little leverages to mute that effect. The CIA was anathema to the baby boomer generation, the hippies, and anti-war demonstrators. It is ludicrous to theorize that that era, and those people were unknowingly choreographed by the CIA, although I'm sure that the CIA did their part to put an end to that era.
BB
Look the "1st Law of Nckian - BB unintelligible threads destined to die peacefully" is..... tie Jimmi Hendrix into Prophecy and it will be stirred to continue for eternity.
Btw
Perhaps one has noticed that everything is about "feeling" nowadays. Suppose not a single clever person ever thought about how to exploit a society based on how individual people "feel" about things, instead of external ancient text being the norm... Of course such a thing will never happen... how can policy and politics be about feelings, no serious government will think and explore such notion.
BB's continual insistence on direct control and direct involvement and meddling shows that he does not truly understand what Rader taught us and how mighty opps work.... "It is not about what you own..... it is about what you can control and have access to what matters....."
Also the principle of "leverage" is not about "OWNING" dome kind of preacher but rather controlling topics on the mass media that person has access too.
I actually learned that from one of the NY billionaires buying influential magazines just to annoy the Democrats with their Free Market, Liberal articles.... Without his support, some of these world famous magazines would have been non existant. And he was also the President of the most important Republican Think tank.
Nck
One more detail, BP8. I do like to be thorough. There are things which are most definitely provable. The second component of that equation however, involves whether the proofs are accepted. We live in times when skillful orators cause people not to accept proof because it conflicts with their agenda. There are also people so jaded by lies they've experienced throughout their lifetime, that they do not trust or believe much of anything. It leaves their minds in a confusing state of organized anarchy. This can be dangerous in times where there is an ongoing existential threat. We look at disasters throughout history which were made worse by people who failed to act and wonder why. They did not know, or did not want to know something that was key to their survival, even as others around them did.
Again, we live in times where many evaluate events and factors from a standpoint of confirmation bias. They choose a path which conforms to their own narrative. Many of my early erroneous decisions in life were made based on 1975. I can't believe there are still people who trust the revision "within the next 3-5 years" Seems unrelated to the current discussion, but it actually does fit into it.
BB
BB
Whether it was the CIA, the mob, or corporate types in black suits, the music business is a "controlled" business with who knows how many sub agendas it services.
I'm with you, I like guitar and appreciate the famed rock musicians. I grew up playing guitar in garage bands, idolizing and mimicking those very ones I now see in a different light.
The chief of all fairy tales is the Beatles, the feel good story about a group that went from the bars in Hamburg to the Ed Sullivan stage almost overnight. Were they organic? Manufactured? Brian Epstein and George Martin were to the Beatles like Rader and Gotah were to HWA--handlers!
Mike Williams (sageofquay.com) has an enormous amount of documentation refuting the Beatles rise to fame official narrative. I don't have a specific program to reference for he has hundreds of hours covering diverse ground. You can look it up. He does cover the following questions on multiple programs:
Did the Beatles sing their own songs? Yes.
Were they the prolific song writers the official narrative claims they were? No.
Did they play on all their own music? Live-yes, studio-no.
Studio session players were used on most of their recorded tracks for obvious reasons---it's a business promoting an agenda, nothing was done by chance.
The great guitarist of that time (Jimmy Page, Eric Clapton, Glen Campbell) actually began as session players who recorded most of the British invasion content, along with session groups like the Wrecking Crew, the Nashville A Team, and the Swampers, aka the Muscle Shoals Rhythm Section (see Wikipedia on each for a partial admission of these facts along with other aspects both promoting and conflicting with the official narrative).
Jump ahead 60 years and we can now see with our own eyes just how dumb down society has become. As great as the Beatles were, the current darling of the age, Taylor Swift, is projected to surpass them in every category known to music. That's right, Taylor Swift the G.O.A.T.!!! How, why you say?
Happy days are here again OR "in the last days, perilous times shall come", (2 Tim.3:1)?
BB at 952
I agree with you to a point. I think it depends on the individual and the proof offered. For me, first and foremost, it has to make sense while considering the source. Also, I'm always leary of someone demanding a radical response. You know the type.
Agreed, BP8. Handlers. Berry Gordy Jr. was kind of the king of all that. He wanted the Motown artists to be very polished, actually running a kind of finishing school for them. Also, he often assigned the same song to multiple of his artists, and whoever did the best job got to do the official hit version.
Big Jim Sullivan was another very famous British session musician. When Tom Jones had his USA TV program, Big Jim was his guitarist.
I really liked the Stax session musicians from the Memphis Soul era.
Oh, and one of the oddities from the David McGowan materials was how the Monkees were right there partying with all of the "real" musicians in Laurel Canyon. This was because the entire community realized that they ALL used the same session musicians, not just the Monkees.
By the time I began going to concerts, the musicians really had their acts together musically. Billy Gibbons was amazing. Real virtuoso and showman. Always loved ZZ Top. Got to see many of the old Blues artists who influenced him as well, because they were still alive and doing shows. When I was a little kid, one of the adults told me that rock n roll was a combination of Hillbilly music and the Blues. (I mean, that practically defined Elvis!) But, I've always loved rock, country, the Blues, and deep soul.
See, the thing is, even if nck actually turned out to be right about the CIA and some of the music, it would not diminish my love and appreciation for it one bit. It was good stuff no matter the source. Taylor Swift doesn't even register on my Doppler Radar Scope!
BB
Yes, it is amazing how good the music is........ taken out of the (revolutionary, spaced out, counter culture, (cold and hot) war) context of the time......
Born to be wild..... Or Born Free....
Nck
Wonder what the learned guru of Spahn Ranch thought of HWA. Wonder if he let Squeaky Fromme tune her transitors to Radio Church of God out there in the dusty Simi Hills.
"Low threshhold ...... for this pearl and swine audience...."?????
Therein lies your problem, nck. You learned very well from HWA and Stan the man how to be an elitist.
Those of us with our feet firmly planted on the ground were just appreciating art, Bohemian culture, but mostly just diggin' on the music.
By the way, aren't you the one who started the rumors here that I had died a couple years ago? I still haven't figured out how concerned people got my unlisted phone number and email addresses.
BB
Hi BB,
I did not start any rumors about you. I do not do the strange thing you mention......(although I did look up old school mates at facebook some decades ago).
I bear no ill will to any person out here, not even the former "Ollie."
Rock on brother Harley.....Easy Rider friend.......
nck
Alrighty then. Will take you at your word. Both of us are easy targets, nck. As the confusion unfolded, someone had brought up your name.
BB
Since British Pop Music was a topic.... now Freddy Mercury of Queen Fame singing in Highlander comes to mind....... "Who wants to live forever......".....
I did develop an entire theory around that movie... since those immortals are beheading each other because "there can be only One".... This resonated with me since we believed that Genesis had 2 God's "The Allmighty and the Word"..... and it was implied there might be more........ So I thought perhaps they were the last 2 of 7.....
Of course Dennis did confirm this thought pattern as rational when he laid out the history of El on this blog.....
Nck
Loadies came up with the idea of turning down the sound on "Wizard of Oz", and playing Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon" album, setting down the needle on the record immediatley following the Lion's third roar. There is said to be perfect synchronicity between the two, almost as if the album had been created as an alternative sound track.
Pink Floyd denies any intent on their part to have initiated any such correlation, and my loadie friends and I never knew of this back in the day, hence I have never personally verified the legend.
The statute of lims has long since expired on
this, so I can share that I do recall one summer evening in the mid '70s having a little smoke and playing Dark Side of the Moon as we watched a lunar eclipse. That was really cool!
Garth Hemp's story is inteteresting. Fitting.... as the first images of Voyager were beamed to the Auditorium......
Also Dorothy and the yellow brick road to Oz. A children's book people say. Yet all alluding to the early 1900 banking/economic crisis.... and the imminent and following contemporary political debate on the later gold standard and federal reserve system that followed to prevent this happening in the future.
Hence the link with the early Jekyll Island Feast site.... To celebrate mass at the holy site where god/the federal reserve had marked its presence...
Nck
Ooh, it was 1910 the big pow wow for gold/dollar on Jekyll Isle :
"In November 1910, six men – Nelson Aldrich, A. Piatt Andrew, Henry Davison, Arthur Shelton, Frank Vanderlip and Paul Warburg – met at the Jekyll Island Club, off the coast of Georgia, to write a plan to reform the nation’s banking system. The meeting and its purpose were closely guarded secrets, and participants did not admit that the meeting occurred until the 1930s."
https://www.federalreservehistory.org/essays/jekyll-island-conference
Nelson Aldrich, his daughter was married to J.D Rockefeller's son.
Henry Davidson, worked for J.P. Morgan.
Frank Vanderlip, President of National city Bank of N.Y., banker for Standard Oil.
Paul Warburg, brother in law of Jacob Schiff, another director of National city Bank, and who's father was a broker for the Rothchilds.
Yea, these are the guys we want in charge of our money! And that ain't no conspiracy theory!
OK guys, this is where I get off. I hate the CIA, although some of their shit is just hilarious.
I think "States Rights" gets selectively used, hypocritically, pro or con, which ever way hard right conservatives think it best furthers their agenda.
But, I love the Federal Reserve system because overall it has protected us from some of the worst things that could happen.
Guess I'm just a different kind of radical. Bye.
OK guys, this is where I get off. I hate the CIA, although some of their shit is just hilarious.
I think "States Rights" gets selectively used, hypocritically, pro or con, which ever way hard right conservatives think it best furthers their agenda.
But, I love the Federal Reserve system because overall it has protected us from some of the worst things that could happen.
Guess I'm just a different kind of radical. Bye.
Garth Hemp.
Non of my postings are political statements, ought or shouldn't.
They are just illustrations of how "a particular person's born in 1892" religion came into existence through his thought patterns ignited through Wilsonianism Internationalism VS the old isolationism, the rise of the USA from a mediocre country between the Great Empires to the single most important Superpower and the instrument of centralisation of (financial) power VS the Jefferson Ian way of governance.
Nck
Well, Gentlemen, you’ve entertained and made me all agog on this topic. I am rightfully skeptical, but not so skeptical as to not look into it.
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