Dennis on: "Joshua C Pack Asks Us To 'Come Reason Together.'"

Ok...Let's Do

I have to say it is a trip following Dave's reasonings over the course of these many screeds on why Haggai is speaking of him literally and all that Haggai said is a code for what really is going to happen soon in the "Whoever Heard of Them Churches of God."

Let's take a look at an example of Dave's reasonings...

Screed 25:Why Unification?

"Let’s recall again. Previous announcements explained why Haggai 1:15 describes this event as happening “in the second year of Darius the king.” For those who believe this date pertains to the Persian King Darius (who lived over 2,500 years ago), remember that the modern Zerubbabel is also described as the “son of Shealtiel” and Joshua as the “son of Josedech.”

Well no, not really.  Dave has made the case that Herbert Armstrong is also described as the "son of Shealtiel" because since Herbert Armstrong is Zerubbabel, which we all know, he must in some way be that son of Shealtiel too or the setting would just be in the times of Darius...which it actually was and we can't have that.  Joshua of the original Haggai is also the son of a father named Josedech and since Dave is the real Joshua, we know that, like Herbert Armstrong who was the real Zerubbabel, Dave can't possibly be that since he is the seed of Mr. and Mrs. Pack.  Since we know that "Pack" (a derivative of the word "Passover" sure fine,) does not mean Josedech, it really does because it's in "God Code."

 Let’s reason together. The modern types of these two men are obviously NOT sons of these two fathers of long ago. The Bible is obviously speaking in code about what are two modern leaders. Mr. Armstrong knew the ancient Zerubbabel having been born to a man named Shealtiel had nothing to do with his prophetic fulfillment of this role. The same would be true of the modern Joshua regarding the irrelevancy of the ancient figure Josedech.

Whoa..whoa....who is the type and who is the fulfillment now?  I thought the originals were the type and HWA and you were the real thing?  I'm getting confused.  If HWA and you are mere types than I can relax a bit as types come and go.  But I sware somewhere you meant that the originals were mere types of HWA and your ultimate reality of the meaning of Haggai?

Similarly, the description of the YEAR of fulfillment must also be in code.

Hey wait...now that was a leap.  So Dave makes an assumption and a grand analogy about a long dead political governor (Was HWA a political type...I mean fulfillment?) and a Joshua the High Priest as being code for HWA and himself and so the next mistake must also be in code?  Really?  Assumption and delusional analogies which now are really true and in code now mean the next assumption and delusional analogy is in code too.  Great...got it.

 Now think. (I am thinking.  And don't tell me what to do.)If God specified in advance the exact year, the entire world would know when the prophecy would be fulfilled! See this! (I can't see it and don't tell me what to see.) Now let’s think again. (Doh...what did I just say!) God does not name in the Bible (or need to) the modern Elijah of Malachi 4:5-6 and Matthew 17:11 because His Spirit will guide those who are looking to Him to see who fulfilled this role. Fruits, as well as who fit the profile, eventually revealed the man’s identity—Herbert W. Armstrong.

God is really good at not naming lots of folk. Risky business leaving it up to "fruits" as men count fruitness.  Though we know the brother in law of this guy and the great grandmother of that one, God could not find the time to mention the names of any Pharoah's in stories where it would be nice to know so we could date the story.  I'm thinking not actually dating the story was the reason the Prie...God, left out the names. I disagree.  I believe "God" may not name this Elijah to come is because the Prie..., God did not know who it would be either. That going by the fruits thing has been tried and as with HWA and yourself, it depends on which fruits you pick.  The "Spirit Leading" is a bit off putting since that "spirit leading" stuff has been used by every preacher since Paul to prove the unprovable and get people to do the ridiculous.  And also send it in.  As far as fitting profiles goes, one can get 128,958 other humans to fit whatever profile you wish.  Just pick the right fruits and ignore the rest. 

" For that matter, the same applied to Zerubbabel. The same principle would apply to the identity of the Beast and False Prophet, whom God would never name in advance—or the Two Witnesses, among others. But eventually God’s people WOULD know who these people are."

Occam's Razor , which states that the simplest answer is usually the correct one would say that the reason names aren't named is that names aren't known by anyone including by one's concept of God.  It is actually the author of the book who does not know and cannot therefore say.  It's code talk for "It could happen."


I suppose you'd not understand or get that in the day, when Revelation was written, many of the Jewish Christian side of the fence run by Peter, James and John as opposed the Gentile side of the fence run by Paul, considered Vespasian the Beast for taking out Jerusalem and Paul the False Prophet which the Ephesian Church found wanting and wasn't actually an Apostle to Revelation Jesus, and kicked his butt out.  Even Paul lamented that "all in Asia (Ephesus) have forsaken me."  He blamed them not himself of course.  "God's people" have been guessing who these modern characters would be for 2000 years since the failed prophecy of Revelation, written to encourage Jewish Christians in Jerusalem fell flat on its face.  I know saying Revelation is a failed prophecy of the now distant past but it is nonetheless.  I think the book being given to hyperbole throws you off thinking it is all yet to come.  Have you ever actually seen Mt. Zion, the Joy of all the Land?  Jewish writers exaggerate.  

Psalm 48:1-2

A Song. A Psalm of the Sons of Korah. Great is the Lord and greatly to be praised in the city of our God! His holy mountain, beautiful in elevation, is the joy of all the earth, Mount Zion, in the far north, the city of the great King.

 

Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

 

Gonna be a squeeze for the 144,000 and any innumerables

"Back to Haggai. First, to believe the prophecy is fulfilled during the reign of Darius would mean Haggai is an historical account, and not PROPHETIC. 

Um...exactly, as it is an historic account of a then prophetic moment the Jews with hope for better things to come. I know that will bug ya.  It was "prophetic" in the sense that Haggai was telling the people if they would get off their butts and rebuild the temple of 580's BCE, the Messiah would come and all would be well.  It's how the Prophets, Priests and Kings of the OT tell their story.  It's motivational to the times not the distant future. Think!  (sorry, broke my own rule) , no one makes prophecy for TWO THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED YEARS into the future.  Who would care?  The best you'd get out of the people of your times would be "Sure, fine..whatever you say...let's go build our own houses. Screw the temple until we have roofs over our heads in our times now."   Prophecies are for "things which must shortly come to pass."  It's really not koser to quote the many "soons", "day far spent," "shortly" and "it is the last hour," etc when it's not really.  That would make people think the prophet, apostle or Joshua was nuts. 

"The first thing the thoughtful reader understands (Watch it Dave...thoughtful readers are not always understanding what you need them to understand because they are...well...thoughtful.) is that this prophecy has nothing to do with any year in the reign of a king that lived over 2,500 years ago! (Inaccurate assumption and literally untrue) So the fulfillment comes in a year that can be known in OTHER WAYS. Thus, the day and month are seen to be easier to know than which YEAR it will happen."

Ok..let me get this straight.  Since we can know the reign of Darius, it can't mean that because it's in code.  Since it is in code there has to be another way to know what year is actually being alluded to.  But you like the day and month given but it's that crazy "when year" that is the code stuff?  Ok, got it.  That' stupid. No offense.


So in current summary.  Dave is not setting dates and by that he means the date for the Second Coming of Christ.  And he isn't.  However, God has revealed certain dates which can be  transposed into August 6th and August 31st of any year.  No mystery here.  It's in the Book. BUT, Dave has figured out not only who the real Zerubbabel and Joshua are which maybe even Haggai had no clue as to what he was really saying (God did not reveal the code to Haggai) but Dave has divined the year these months and days will occur.  And in all of human history since the 500's BCE...it's US! I mean them and Dave. Awesome!   


 I do have to say here that in tapes not available to the public and sought out earnestly when leaked, Dave does have a liking for his work to end in 2016ish, from what I can understand but that knowledge is not for the public at this time. It will be subject to code cracking change I am sure.  It might also mess up enthusiasm for the building program.  No matter, I'm pretty sure the time the Code being read will exactly match the lifetime of Apostle Joshua C Packstrong.  After life moves on and we' aren't included anymore, who care what happens...  Herbert Armstrong never thought 20 minutes ahead into his future because at that time the code said  Zerubbabel started it and he would finish it.  HWA's lack of common sense and actual planning for the church did indeed finish it.  This is the future of RCG as well and it takes no code to see it coming.  


The simplicity that the New Testament says is in Christ and the easy burden of it all as opposed to the heavy one Jesus rejected, shouldn't be this confusing and require belief in the unbelivable.  It should not take these Davidic twistings of scriptures to make them mean what the NEVER meant. August 2013 is going to be memorable time in the Church of God experience for sure.  It should be a real Uni-fiction....

  Contact Dennis at DennisCDiehl@aol.com

Dennis on: "But What If Dave Is Right and Stuff Happens?"

Come on...you've thought it.  "What if Dave IS right and he DOES have an inside track to God?  What then?"   First of all, not to worry, he's not and it won't but that being said, we all remember how the crowds mocked Noah, and for 120 years or so the story goes.  And it worked out just terrible for those folk.  (Don't worry about that story either.  It is a plagiarized version of the Sumerian Tale of Gilgamesh but that's a whole other story).  But we know somewhere, that story is being quoted to make the faithful say, "oh yeah...that's true."

 

The average Church of God member of any splinter has any number of examples burned into their minds of the bad results that can come from the common man speaking up to illogical power.  The entire Exodus is one big "Moses, no one believes you and we are thirsty" story.  Korah and his kin get a bit fed up with Moses, which in my mind would be natural, but that's not how the story goes.  We all know the last thing Korah heard from Moses was, "Well Korah, with ideal like that one, really big things are OPENING UP for you," and the rest is history, sorta but probably not.  Even Miriam and Aaron had to be taught a few lessons on picking on Moses for leading them all out into the waste howling wilderness without a map.  Did you know it only actually takes 9 days to walk from Egypt to Israel.  Men never read maps.

We all know naughty boys made fun of Elisha as they mocked and scoffed at him, as boys are wont to do, with "Go up, go up bald man," as his mentor Elijah did, in the story, probably not.  Those bad boys got eaten by bears.  Some like to sugar coat the story and say the bears just tore 'em up a bit, but knowing YHVH, I'm going to go with eaten alive.  Never scoff at the Man of God.

I'm sure time would fail us and the Bible could not contain all the mockings and scoffings the prophets endured, which actually they well deserved as many of their own imaginings did not come to pass.  Egypt never was vacated for 40 years and the Nile never really dried up and so on.  In the New Testament, you didn't pick on the Apostles but they were less aggressive towards the brethren.  They just called them names and as Paul said, he wished they'd cut off their binkies if they were going to be circumcised.  Paul  said he  blessed when he got cursed, but then in other places he pronounces curses on his critics so with Paul it depends on the day of the week. Pharisees got rather miffed at Jesus but he did not strike them dead or turn them into lepers as far as I can tell.  The gang of 12 wanted fire brought down on the scoffers, but Jesus calmed them down. Jesus was a gentle guy  and not given to revenge .  He did get a bit miffed at being called a bastard in John 8 however and said their father was Satan, so he was not above payback. 

The Apostle Peter is said, by Luke who was Paul's buddy, to have struck down two church members who didn't pony up with the funds promised from the sale of land.  I can see Dave trying this on some who have done the same with their pledges.  But if you know me at all, I think that was a private joke on Peter and a not so subtle bash that the readers of Acts would get and we don't after all this time.  Basically,  Annanias and Sapphira get struck down for saying they would do one thing, give all, and did another, held back.  This by the "Great Apostle Peter" who said he would do one thing, never leave Jesus and did another, denied him.  LOL   Don't follow Peter would be the message for those with ears to hear.  So we can dismiss this threatening case of take that you reprobate.  

At any rate, I know some of you are wondering what would happen if Dave is right?  What if the Field of Dreams fills up for the opening game at the Feast?  What if Three COG ministers literally die on the same day? Oh my oh my, we won't be able to explain that away.  (I suggest no three COG ministers ride together until September maybe?)  To be honest, I have been taking more care of myself this month than most.  Taking vitamins, walking Chewie my Shih Tzu a bit more and being nice to my friends.  I meditate a bit more and am getting my sleep.  But to be honest, when I feel a twitter or tweek in my chest or I cough, I do wonder if I am on the list.  While longevity is a trait in my family, if something happens to me, I didn't like it.  I'm just saying.  I willingly give up any chance I have for the big three to Dr. Bob Thiel who would probably be tickled to be chosen.  

So, off to work and didn't want to not address this topic that I KNOW lurks beneath the surface of the God Haunted.  

So hear we go....Oh Magic 8 Ball....Is Dave really Joshua the High Priest as spoken of by the Prophet Haggai and will this stuff he reports as being from you not him going to happen this month as he says?

 Contact Dennis at DennisCDiehl@aol.com

Philadelphia Church of God: Parents Must Start Reading Leviticus 23 to Children Who Cannot Read Prior to Feast

The spiritual abuse continues to run unabated in the Philadelphia Church of God. Children who cannot read have to be set down and read to from Leviticus 23 prior to going to the Feast this year.

PCG force feeds the law down their children throats but yet never reads to them about Jesus.  Don't expect any sermons at the Feast about Jesus either. I don't recall the name being brought up at most Feast sites I have been to over the decades, so it sure won't be happening at PCG's either.  If Jesus is mentioned it will be in passing and somehow tied to the law, or that he is coming back really, really pissed and is going to kill 2/3's of humanity because his Dad is pissed too.

Are the scriptures about God’s holy days, especially the Feast, deeply etched into your heart? Does knowing God’s masterful holy day plan give you goosebumps? If so, it will not be hard for you to want to pass that same knowledge, emotions and feelings on to your child. Remember, children are great imitators. If you talk about what God has taught you with excitement and joy with your children, they will want to know and talk about it too.

However, you must teach your children what God says about the Feast from His Bible. How deeply you go into the scriptures will depend on the age of your child. Yet, every child should know well Leviticus 23—the premier holy day chapter in the Bible. Older children and teens should have its salient parts memorized. In fact, memorizing the scriptures related to the holy days is great preparation for the Feast.

Don’t skip over your little ones. Take your youngest children, even those who cannot yet read, into your lap and read Leviticus 23 to them. Point to verse 1 to show your child that God personally spoke these words to Moses, the first leader of ancient Israel. Point to verse 2 and show them that God told Moses to teach the children of Israel about the holy days. Then be sure to instruct them about what a privilege it is to know about and be able to keep God’s Feast.

Leap then goes on with this:

Be sure to explain to your children that Jesus Christ is going to return to this Earth and build an entirely new world founded on God’s law of love, the Ten Commandments...

No he's not! The 10 commandments are not part of that new world, not as long as Jesus is around.

Even though the Feast is primarily for spiritual education (Isaiah 11:9), show your children that they can learn best about the millennium and the wonderful World Tomorrow by keeping the Feast. Explain to them that for eight days they will experience what it will be like to live during the millennium.

Yep, for eight days he gets to watch mommy and daddy revel in an alcoholic gluttonous frenzy of excess, particularly if daddy is a minister or elder.  Privilege does have its rewards. COG festival site restaurants and bars are well know in stocking up on their booze prior to the Feasts.


It's all about ingraining the law in your child so that they are to be obedient to the ministry of the PCG.  When they speak it is as if God is doing it.

Obedience will be the order of the day during the millennium. Show them specifically that you and your family attend the Feast in order to obey God (Leviticus 23:2). Discuss that your family is able to attend the Feast because you obey God’s tithing laws (Deuteronomy 14:22). Then explain to them that when your family goes to the Feast you will obey all the instructions and rules made during announcements. Carefully explain that they should strive to be obedient to you always, but especially during the Feast—not only for their safety and well-being but also for the welfare of everyone else attending the Feast.

Is it any wonder the COG's are facing an enormous 20/30 something drain?  Why would any young adult subject themselves to this kind of legalistic bullshit?