Insensitive Things People Say to Both Non-Believers and to Those of Faith

 

When one, after years of experience, study, skepticism and critical thinking comes to conclusions about all things religion and whether or not gods, angels and demons exist, they get bombed with nonsensical and emotional challenges and accusations by those who still believe. 

On the other hand, those who have come to not believe or were never a believer need be careful of their own judgements on the beliefs of others. 

There are apologetics, rebuttals, whatabouteries and accusations aplenty, one both sides of emotional issues. 

The trick is to navigate them with understanding and acceptance of the experiences of others and mostly just leave them be. 

This life lesson is often learned after all other avenues of expression have been explored and found wanting. 

Note: All of the following, ON BOTH SIDEs are typical of comebacks when one finds themselves pushed into defense and survival mode with regards to one's beliefs or non-beliefs.

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Some are the following charges against non-believers are: 

You just hate God

Someone must have hurt you

It takes more faith to not believe than to believe

You just want to sin

You will have no reason to be moral

Who are you to question God?

Why do you have to tell everyone. Why not just keep it to yourself

You are just bashing believers

How dare you mock my faith

You have no hope

You can't see the wind can you?

I used to be an unbeliever like you but...

You just want to be your authority and God

What would it take to make you believe?

Atheism is just another Religion

So, we're just a clump of pond scum?

There are no atheists in foxholes

You'll find out when you are being cast into hell/Lake of Fire

I really fear for you

and so on...

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Bonus and Personal From BannedHWA

"Dennis hates those who are Christian and does all he can to mock those who believe."

"I have to wonder if Dennis used to mock the members in his congregations and their beliefs when he was a pastor."

"He dwells amongst believers. You should turn back to God Dennis before it is too late. The LORD sees what you do.
He still does 4:49!! He never left."

"Fool. (shouldn’t call a brother ‘fool’ so I am safe!"

"Another article by Dennis discrediting the bible as God's inspired word. And as usual, just before a holy day, in this case the Day of Atonement.
The holy days must secretly arouse anxiety in fallen Christians since it reminds them of their eternal end."

"Satan's greatest achievement is to make billions of humans believe he doesn't exist."

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On the other hand...

There are Insensitive Things Non-Believers Sometimes Say To Believers:

You believe in fairy tales

Science disproves God

Religious people are just brainwashed

You only believe because you were raised that way

Religious people are less intelligent

How can you believe without proof?

Religion is responsible for most of the world's problems

You're only religious because you afraid of death

You'd come to not believe if you only thought about it critically

Religion is a crutch for weak people

Prayer is pointless

Religious people are all hypocrites

You'll grow out of it someday

You only believe because of the need to hold on to something

How can you follow something that causes so much harm?

Religion is for the uncurious and non-questioning

and so on...

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There can be truth and error in these kinds of views of others on both sides of such issues. Religion and Politics have always been THE hot topics people can lose their minds over blaming and shaming others as if that produces any positive change, acceptance or at least tolerance of one towards another. 

I do it. You do it.  Going from believer to non-believer, as with anything else, is done in just about the same stages as one goes through the stages of death. In this case, the death of an idea, a hope or a faith in that for which, more and more, there is little reason to cling to. 

The Day The Philadelphia Church of God Was Publicly Humiliated

Remember this news story below? 

This was even more humiliating than the day Gerald Flurry got nabbed for public intoxication, 

when a cop stumbled upon him roadside, surrounded by a glittering carpet of beer cans—like he'd thrown a solo kegger and lost to the pavement.

As Above, So Below: Speaking of Angels. I Saw Lucifer Just Before Sunrise This Morning

 

Let's Put This Story to Rest Once and For All

The Planet Venus is the Light Bringer and the Story Behind the Fall of "Satan" in Isaiah 14

If I ever heard an Old Testament story once, I have heard this one told ten thousand times. It comes from Isaiah 14.

12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! (Son of the Morning Star. i.e. the Sun) how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

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(Note: The 'sides of the North" is where Cassiopia, "the Throne" is in the night sky and considered "God's Throne".

 Through it runs "the sea of glass", the Milky Way, of Revelation.

 Opposite it are "the Seven Spirits of God", i.e. the seven stars of the Big Dipper, all in the Circumpolar Constellations. The ancients invented "Nightflixs"

Revelation 4 reflects this image

Revelation 4:

.  5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. In front of the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God. 6 Also in front of the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.

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Back to Ezekiel

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Note: The "Most High" position is Noon

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;"

This story was THE proof that Satan used to be one of God's good guys and then all of a sudden, one day decided to be take over everything and knock God off His throne. Local boy goes bad I guess. Well Satan, which term is never mentioned here, former Light Bringer, which is what Lucifer means, is now the Prince of Darkness and the rest is history.

What's really going on with this story. Did you know that you see this drama literally take place multiple mornings and evenings of the year. Did you know that even to this day, this Lucifer is mistaken for UFOs or landing lights! Jesus said he saw Satan fall as lightening from heaven as did millions then and billions today if you know where to look. It's a very old story based on a very real observation by humans who made up a story about what they did not understand at the time.

First of all, let's understand that Isaiah 14 is really not about a Satan the Devil as he has evolved into over the history of the Church. A scripture can never mean what it never meant, and this principle applies to Isaiah 14 for sure. 

In the original Hebrew text, the 14th chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who had persecuted the children of Israel. Later in the context we see he was a man, who died. Now we often hear that this was a "type" but that's slippery ground mostly. Metaphor maybe, but not a type, where we can change a man into a Lucifer and then Lucifer into Satan, never mentioned, and then the whole thing into how Satan came to be the God of this world so send in your tithes and be safe with us. "In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is "Helal, son of Shahar", which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King Louis XIV of France the appellation, "The Sun King").

The King here was a man, plain and simple, and for his cocky attitude, he got to die like everyone else.

Lucifer means "Light Bringer" and is a term used by Roman astronomers to describe the planet Venus. Venus has always been the light bringer as it always precedes the early morning sun. 

It is very bright and very noticeable, such that it has been confused, as noted, for the landing lights of non-existent airplanes. It is bright, but not as bright as the sun of course. In mythology, humans noted this 'god" that preceded the sun and seemed to be racing to the zenith, which in Astro theology is called the place of the "Most High" or plainly put for us today, NOON! Noon is God's throne in Astro theological terms.

 In Isaiah, this "Lightbringer" went before God, the Most High-The SUN. The highest point in the sky where the sun or anything that shines outside the planet can rise, from our perspective. When mythology and even the Bible speaks of God as "the most High", one can see the deeper meaning that hints at sun worship. The Bible promotes a similar yet different form of Sun/Son worship but that has been lost on most Christians today.

The planet Venus proved to be an enigma for mankind. Its job seemed to be to go before the morning sun and announce, if you would, it's coming forth. But then, bright as it was and still is, it falls from the sky and descends into the ground, or in mythology, seems to be thrown down. Strange! Not knowing that Venus was an inner planet and all inner planets that rotate with the earth around the sun can never pass over us, east to west as do the outer planets and stars, they had to explain it.

 Thus we have the "fact" that this Lightbringer, this Lucifer soon be called Satan, MUST have become discontent with just announcing the Sun God, so MUST have said in his heart, "I will become the MOST HIGH." Well that was it for him! The Most High, not willing to give up his throne to this usurper, simply threw him back down to the earth, or apparently so at least as we look on the horizon. After that rather unsuccessful endeavor the dethrone God Most High, we get stuck with him as Satan compliments of the Church, who embellished the story and ta ta!...The mess the world in is explained and it isn't the fault of mankind for the most part. Forever more, we can say, "Satan made me do it." You know, the bright and morning star that tried to become God but lost.

It was mostly the Catholic St. Jerome in the fourth century who mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor, "Day star, son of the Dawn," as "Lucifer," and over the centuries an evolution of ideas took place. Lucifer the morning star became a disobedient angel, cast out of heaven to rule eternally in hell mostly waiting for all Non-Catholics, but later all Non-Protestants too. Now the Church had it's Prince of the Power of the Air, the Prince of Darkness, the God of this world, The Roaring Lion, the Fallen Angel, the former Day star (because if you know where to look, Venus can even be seen in the daytime)...gone bad.

Interesting enough, even Jesus, well the Jesus of Revelation who bears no likeness to the Jesus of the Gospels, identifies himself as the morning star, a term used as a central theme in many Christian sermons. Jesus refers to himself as the morning star in Revelation 22:16: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

So here we have it. Humans could never quite explain why this bright "star" we know as the planet Venus, preceded the morning Sun as if to announce it's arrival, but then crashed back to earth. Very strange! Let's make up a story! 

This bright light, an Angel, the Lightbringer and minor deity compared to the SUN, really went bad and decided to knock the SUN GOD, and later the SON of GOD, off the throne, which is where the SUN rises to when it becomes the MOST HIGH at NOON. God, not putting up with that, simply threw Lucifer, now Satan or the Destroyer, back down to earth where he belongs and humans can get stuck with him until the SON of the SUN God comes back to destroy the works of the Light Bringer now gone dark. Great story! In Isaiah 14, this haughty king was acting just like that in thinking he could knock Israel out of the picture, he lost, was thrown down and died, just like that planet Venus every morning.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcass trodden under feet.

In the real story of the real human king of Isaiah 14, we see he dies like all mortal men and is not well thought of for thinking he could challenge Israel. In verse 19 we read, "But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcass trodden under feet. 20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned." Graves, carcasses, pits, burials and oblivion are all features of what happens to humans, not Angels or mini-gods.

So when you see Venus early in the morning when you drive to work and think either a train if low enough or a plane looking for place to land is coming right at YOU, know that's only the Light Bringer, Lucifer, later your arch nemesis Satan, announcing "But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall" 

 Notice it doesn't say "Son". Think of wings more like rays and you'll get the picture. That planet Vensus, so beautiful is explaining a phenomenon that we take for granted to human beings long ago who feared such things and simply had to come up with a theology to explain it. Now you can say you saw Satan fall as lightening from heaven too.

It also cast doubt on Lucifer actually being any literal being in the pantheon of the gods and demons. 

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Bonus Astro-Theology of the Scriptures.

Ezekiel 10

11...The cherubim went in whatever direction the head faced, without turning as they went. 

14 Each of the cherubim had four faces: One face was that of a cherub, (Revelation defines this as "an ox", the second the face of a human being, the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.

Revelation 4

6: In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. (Stars in the surrounding night sky)

7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 

8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. (Stars in the night sky around the constellation)

Clearly, Ezekiel had no idea what a Cherubim looked like, so he took his Ques from the four equidistant constellations of the FOUR SEASONS.  Ezekiel did know his Constellations.

Winter is Aquarius-The Water Man. ie. "Face of a man".  Three months later, Spring is Taurus the Bull. i.e. "an ox". Three months later is Summer-Leo. i.e. "like a lion". Three months later is Fall-Aquila the Eagle. i.e. "Like an Eagle". 

Ezekiel puts his seasonal order as Spring, Winter, Summer, Fall

Revelation puts the seasonal order as Summer, Spring, Winter, Fall

But clearly, the Cherubim were drawn from the seasonal constellations in the night sky familiar to the author of Ezekiel and Revelation. 

It is no coincidence 

"As Above, So Below"

Herbert Armstrong's Fanciful History of the Angelic Realm

Ezekiel 1:15-21

15 As I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel on the ground beside each creature with its four faces. 16 This was the appearance and structure of the wheels: They sparkled like topaz, and all four looked alike. Each appeared to be made like a wheel intersecting a wheel. 17 As they moved, they would go in any one of the four directions the creatures faced; the wheels did not change direction as the creatures went. 18 Their rims were high and awesome, and all four rims were full of eyes all around.

19 When the living creatures moved, the wheels beside them moved; and when the living creatures rose from the ground, the wheels also rose. 20 Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, and the wheels would rise along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels. 21 When the creatures moved, they also moved; when the creatures stood still, they also stood still; and when the creatures rose from the ground, the wheels rose along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.

Herbert Armstrong's Fanciful History of the Angelic Realm

Herbert Armstrong, founder of the now-defunct Worldwide Church of God and Plain Truth magazine, wrote about the angelic realm:

Mystery of the Ages: The Perfect Creation

In Job 38:4, 7, God is speaking specifically of the creation of this earth. He said all the angels (created “sons of God”) shouted for joy at the creation of the earth. This reveals that angels were created before the creation of the earth, and probably before the material universe. The suns, planets, and astral bodies are material substances. Angels are individually created spirit beings, composed solely of spirit. It will come as a surprise to many to learn that angels inhabited this earth BEFORE the creation of man. This passage from Job implies it.

Mystery of the Ages: Angels on Earth Sinned

It is revealed in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, that God placed the archangel Lucifer, a cherub, on a throne on the earth. He was placed there as a ruler over the entire earth. God intended him to rule the earth by administering the government of God over the earth. And the government of God was administered on earth until the rebellion of the sinning angels.

How long these angels inhabited the earth before the creation of man is not revealed. It might have been millions-or even billions-of years. More on that later. But these angels sinned. Sin is the transgression of God’s law (I John 3:4). And God’s law is the basis of God’s government. So we know these angels, apparently a third of all the angels (Rev. 12:4), sinned-rebelled against the government of God. And sin carries penalties. The penalty for the sin of the angels is not death, as it is for man. Angels are immortal spirit beings and cannot die. These spirit beings had been given dominion over the PHYSICAL EARTH as a possession and an abode.

The universal, worldwide sin of the angels resulted in the physical destruction of the face of the earth.

Mystery of the Ages: A Surprising Truth

Now another surprise for most readers. Here is another bit of the missing dimension in knowledge, actually revealed in the Bible, but unrecognized by religion, by science and by higher education.

From verse 2 of Genesis 1 on, the remainder of this first chapter of the Bible is not describing the original creation of the earth. But it is describing a renewing of the face of the earth, after it had become waste and empty as a result of the sin of the angels.

What is described from verse 2 on, in the supposed creation chapter of the Bible, did occur, according to the Bible, approximately 6,000 years ago. But that could have been millions or trillions of years after the actual creation of the earth described in verse 1!

I will comment later on the length of time it might have taken before all earth’s angels turned to rebellion.

The earth had become waste and empty. God did not create it waste and empty, or in a state of decay. God is not the author of confusion (I Cor. 14:33). This same Hebrew word-tohu-meaning waste and empty, was inspired in Isaiah 4518, where it is translated “in vain.” Using the original Hebrew word, as originally inspired, it reads: “For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain [tohu], he formed it to be inhabited.”

Continue now with the remainder of verse 2 of Genesis 1 (the earth had become chaotic, waste and empty): “And darkness was upon the face of the deep [the ocean or fluid surface of the earth]. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness” (verses 2-4).

Satan is the author of darkness. The rebellion of the angels had caused the darkness. God is the author of light and truth. Light displays and enhances beauty, and also exposes evil. Darkness hides both.

The verses that follow in this first chapter of the Bible describe the renewing of the face of the earth, yielding beautiful lawns, trees, shrubs, flowers, vegetation-then the creation of fish and fowl, animal life, and finally man.

Mystery of the Ages: God's Purpose for Angels

So the angel potential was to take over the entire universe-to improve and finish the billions of physical planets surrounding the uncountable stars, many of which are SUNS. The sun in our solar system is merely an average-size sun. Some that we see as stars are actually many, many times larger than our sun. Our solar system, vast beyond the imagination of most minds, is only a part of our galaxy, and there are many galaxies! In other words, the physical UNIVERSE that the mighty God created is vast beyond imagination! How GREAT is the GREAT GOD!

He intended angels to have a vital part in the final creation of the endless universe!

(But God may not have then fully revealed this awesome potential to the angels, for one third of them set out to take it from him by force, without first qualifying.)

For this far-reaching purpose, God established his GOVERNMENT on earth over them. The administration of the GOVERNMENT OF GOD over this globe was delegated to the super archangel-the great cherub Lucifer.

Bear in mind that even the holy angels and archangels-including this super cherub Lucifer-of necessity were endowed with ability to think, to reason, to form attitudes, and to make choices and decisions.

The Incredible Human Potential: What Caused the Angels' Sin?

He had created a beautiful, perfect creation in the earth. He populated it with holy angels - probably millions of them. He put over them, as king, on an earthly throne, the archangel - the cherub Lucifer. Lucifer was the supreme masterpiece of God's creative power as a single separately created Spirit being. He was the most perfect in beauty, power, mind, knowledge, intellect, wisdom, within the almighty power of God to create. God can create nothing higher or more perfect, by instantaneous fiat.

Yet this great being, knowledgeable, trained and experienced at God's own throne in heaven over the universe and the administration of the government of God, had rejected that government, corrupted his way, rebelled against administering or even obeying it. He had led all his angels astray and into the sin of rebellion and disloyalty. 

 

Now consider further. Apparently, the entire universe had been created also at the time of the earth's creation. There is no evidence either in God's revealed Word, nor in science, that any of the planets in endless outer space had been inhabited with any form of life. But God does nothing in vain. He always has a purpose. 

 

Apparently, all such planets in the entire universe NOW are waste and empty - decayed (tohu and bohu) - Like the earth was, as described in Genesis I :2. But God did not create them in such conditions of decay - like our moon. Decay is not an original created condition - it is a condition resulting from a process of deterioration. Evidently if the now fallen angels had maintained the earth in its original beautiful condition, improved it, carried out God's instructions, and obeyed His government, they would have been offered the awesome potential of populating and carrying out a tremendous creative program throughout the entire universe. When they turned traitor on earth, their sin must have also brought simultaneously physical destruction to the other planets throughout the universe, which were potentially and conditionally put in subjection to them. 

 

As God surveyed this cataclysmic tragedy, He must have realized that since the highest, most perfect being within His almighty power to create, had turned to rebellion, it left God Himself as the only being who would not and cannot sin... 

 

God saw that no being less than God, in the God Family, could be certainly relied on never to sin - to be like God - who cannot sin. To fulfill His purpose for the entire vast universe, God saw that nothing less than Himself (as the God Family) could be absolutely relied upon to carry out that supreme purpose in the entire universe. 

 

God then purposed to reproduce Himself, through humans, made in His image and likeness, but made first from material flesh and blood, subject to death if there is sin unrepented of - yet with the possibility of being born into the Divine Family begotten by God the Father.

Unfortunately, Mr. Armstrong's logic and writing style were so flawed that it makes it more difficult to get a handle on precisely what he was teaching. As a consequence, I will follow the order of his presentation of this material and summarize the major points he made in this regard (hopefully, making it easier for the reader to follow along and make sure that I have accurately characterized his teachings.

My summary:

1. Mr. Armstrong taught that the book of Job suggested that angels were created prior to the physical universe, and that they inhabited the earth before humankind was created.

2. He also taught that passages in Isaiah and Ezekiel reveal that Lucifer was placed on the throne of earth over the angelic host. Armstrong went on to teach that these angels sinned, and that the penalty for their sins was not death (because they were immortal beings).

3. Instead, according to Mr. Armstrong, the angels' sin caused the destruction of the earth's surface - forcing God to recreate/renew the face of the earth. He then concluded that God had intended for the angels "to improve and finish" the other solar systems of the universe!

4. Mr. Armstrong taught that Lucifer represented the pinnacle of God's creative power, and that he had been trained at God's throne in heaven. Moreover, Armstrong taught that Lucifer had rejected God's governance and had led a great angelic rebellion against Him!

5. As a consequence of Lucifer's failure, Mr. Armstrong taught that God had decided that only a God-being could be relied upon. Hence, according to Herbert, God then decided to reproduce Himself, and that he would accomplish that through the creation of humankind. In other words, humankind represented PLAN B!

Now that we have summarized Armstrong's teachings about the history of the angelic host, we can begin to take a look at his scriptural prooftexts and critically dissect the flawed reasoning that led to his erroneous conclusions and teachings.

First, this is the actual text from the passage in Job which Mr. Armstrong referenced in his book:

Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said: 'Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Dress for action like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to me. Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:1-7, ESV)

So, we see that the actual context of this passage was God's confrontation of Job's self-righteousness. He was telling Job to put on his big boy pants and answer His questions. "Where were you when I created the earth?" He demanded. In the course of this conversation, we can clearly see that God used flowery and symbolic prose to describe His creation of the earth. As part of this discourse, God revealed to Job that the "morning stars" (angels) sang together, and "all the sons of God" (spirit beings/angels) "shouted for joy."

Now, while it is reasonable to deduce from this passage that angels and spirit beings were created prior to the physical earth and were witnesses to its actual creation, there is NO explicit or implied statement that it was created for them! It is very clearly a stretch to suggest otherwise! Moreover, I defy anyone to point to any place in this passage where it is even remotely suggested that angels lived on this earth before humans! Anyone up for that challenge? If so, please respond in the comments section.

Moreover, before we leave the book of Job, we should note that this is the first mention in the Hebrew Bible of an entity known as "Satan." And, at the beginning of the book, it is made very clear that this Satan still had access to God's throne in heaven at the time that this story took place - ostensibly, many years after the appearance of humans on this planet! (See Job 1:6 and 2:1)

This is especially interesting in terms of this passage from the book of Revelation:

And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days. Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, 'Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!'" (Revelation 12:1-12, ESV)

In this passage from the New Testament, it is clearly suggested that this great angelic war happened sometime after the appearance of the Messiah and the institution of his Church, and that this event finally resulted in the Dragon/Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven and losing their right of access to that place! Moreover, this passage clearly suggests that prior to this event that they had a place in heaven!

This, of course, is more consistent with a host of other scriptural passages than Armstrong's teachings on the subject. In the Gospels, angels are always associated with heaven (Matthew 18:10, 22:30, 24:31, 36, Mark 12:25, 13:32, Luke 2:15, John 1:51). Likewise, in the book of Jude, we read about: "the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority but left their proper dwelling..." (Jude 6) And, finally, there is Christ's own statement that he saw Satan "fall like lightning from heaven." (Luke 10:18). We should also note that all of these passages suggest that the angelic host also had/have access to the earth, acting in their capacity as God's servants/messengers!

For instance, we find the Serpent present in the Garden of Eden! Moreover, when we read through the narrative in the second and third chapters of the book of Genesis, it appears that the Serpent did not have any negative connotation associated with him prior to the events with the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. After all, God didn't curse him until after he had deceived Eve and caused her to disobey God! It was only then that God declared: "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and above all beasts of the field; on your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." (Genesis 3:14-15, ESV) Wait a minute! Did that passage suggest that the days of Satan's life were limited?

Let's take a look at those passages from Isaiah and Ezekiel that Mr. Armstrong referenced in his remarks above. In the fourteenth chapter of the book of Isaiah, we read this passage about the "King of Babylon:"

How the oppressor has ceased, the insolent fury ceased! The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked, the scepter of rulers, that struck the peoples in wrath with unceasing blows, that ruled the nations in anger with unrelenting persecution. The whole earth is at rest and quiet; they break forth into singing. The cypresses rejoice at you, the cedars of Lebanon, saying, ‘Since you were laid low, no woodcutter comes up against us. Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations. All of them will answer and say to you: ‘You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!’ Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, the sound of your harps; maggots are laid as a bed beneath you, and worms are your covers. 'How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’ But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit. Those who see you will stare at you and ponder over you: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home?' All the kings of the nations lie in glory, each in his own tomb; but you are cast out, away from your grave, like a loathed branch, clothed with the slain, those pierced by the sword, who go down to the stones of the pit, like a dead body trampled underfoot. You will not be joined with them in burial, because you have destroyed your land, you have slain your people. May the offspring of evildoers nevermore be named! (Isaiah 14:4-20, ESV)

Now, to be clear, there are those who see this passage as comparing the actual human king of Babylon to Lucifer/Satan, and there are those who see this passage as comparing Lucifer/Satan to the human king. Although an important distinction, for our purposes, I believe this argument is academic. However, one chooses to interpret this passage, the termination of the subject's life and power is delineated in the starkest terms imaginable. In other words, there isn't any possible interpretation which ends in the immortality of the individual in question!

Likewise, when we take a closer look at the twenty-eighth chapter of the book of Ezekiel, we are forced to reach a similar conclusion about the subject of the text. The chapter begins with a passage reprimanding the prince of Tyre, which clearly pointed to the human ruler of the city. This is followed by a passage addressed to the king of Tyre - a personage who is clearly extraordinary (not human). We read there:

You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you. In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and I destroyed you, O guardian cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you. By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries; so I brought fire out from your midst; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all who saw you. All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever. (Ezekiel 28:12-19, ESV)

Are these passages suggesting that Satan and his angels are NOT immortal? Yes, that's exactly what they are saying! Apparently, taking into account the totality of Scripture, angels have the ability to exist indefinitely. They are, however, still CREATED beings! As such, they continue to exist at the pleasure of Almighty God! Notice that, in his first letter to Timothy, Paul wrote that Jesus is "King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion." (I Timothy 6:16, ESV) Apparently, immortality is a God quality/characteristic!

In this connection, we should look again at the book of Revelation and see what John had to say about the ultimate fate of Satan. In the twentieth chapter of that book, we read: "an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while." (Verses 1-3, ESV)

First, notice that this passage is referencing a TEMPORARY imprisonment of Satan - it says absolutely NOTHING about his ultimate fate! Indeed, we find the subject of his ultimate fate addressed later on in the same chapter - after the millennial reign of Christ and his saints. In verse ten, we read that Satan will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, where the Beast and the False Prophet had already been tossed. After this we read of the "Great White Throne Judgment," and that, finally, "Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14, ESV) In other words, this means permanent/eternal death! There is no resurrection from this one! Everyone thrown into this "fire" ceases to exist forever! This is consistent with Paul's statement to the Romans that the "wages of sin is DEATH," and that eternal life is God's GIFT! Moreover, it is also consistent with John's statement that there wouldn't be any more sorrow, tears, or pain in the New Heavens and the New Earth (Revelation 21:1-4). In other words, the continued existence of ANYONE (including Satan) in a state of torment would contradict this statement!

One more thing before we finish. What was God's purpose for the angels? In the book of Hebrews, we read: 

Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. For to which of the angels did God ever say, 'You are my Son, today I have begotten you?' Or again, 'I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son?' And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, 'Let all God's angels worship him.' Of the angels he says, 'He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire.' (Hebrews 1:1-7, ESV) 

 

Clearly, Christ is/was superior to angels, and they NEVER had the potential to become Sons of God!

Likewise, a little later in the same chapter, we read: 

And to which of the angels has he ever said, 'Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet?' Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation? (Hebrews 1:13-14, ESV) 

Once again, this passage makes very clear that angels NEVER had any part in humankind's potential or purpose! Moreover, in the very next chapter, we read: 

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. Therefore, he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. (Hebrews 2:14-16, ESV) 

In other words, in the words of one of my past posts, God is NOT working on "Plan B!"

Hence, we can see that Herbert Armstrong's cherry-picking of Scripture and faulty reasoning led him to construct a fanciful history of the angelic realm - one that is certainly NOT rooted in Scripture! The Plain Truth is that angels were created to serve God and humankind, and that those of their number who rebelled against this purpose (including Satan) will eventually face complete annihilation!

Posted by Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix